Posted on 01/10/2013 9:54:16 AM PST by Morgana
This past summer I wrote about a very serious problem in the Catholic Church that is still far from having been resolved, although there has been some progress.
That is, there are still very many actively homosexual and homosexual friendly clergy (from the lowest ranks to cardinals), religious and staff in numerous Church related offices and organizations in the developed World and in other nations such as Columbia. These people of the 50s and 60s revolution in the Church, some heavily influenced by Marxist thought, have played and are still playing a large role in most of the dreadful corruptions and dissent that have been plaguing the Church these past 50 or more years.
This was brought to mind again by Tuesday’s report on the Archbishop of Westminster’s long overdue decision to rescind permission for the notorious pro-homosexual Soho masses.
Whether this ends the scandal of this group continuing to use the Catholic Church and its sacraments to gain credibility for their anti-Christian morality and social engineering agenda remains to be seen. However, it does publicize what is a common, still on-going scandal in far too many Catholic dioceses in especially the developed world and which has gradually been exported to developing nations.
The scandal is that many bishops have been refusing to use their authority to take action against these decades’ long, in-your-face challenges to Catholic moral principles, despite constant appeals and complaints, with much solid evidence given by faithful Catholics. The groups have seemed to be untouchable, despite their blatant dissent, although there has been some progress.
Until these homosexual “masses” under the name of Dignity and gay friendly groups, activities, Catholic school programs and Parents of Gays and Lesbians organizations, etc, are strongly and publicly repudiated and halted by Bishops everywhere they exist, there is no hope, in my opinion, that Church opposition to same-sex “marriage” can be effective. That certainly has been the experience so far because many who are pushing the destruction of natural family life are well aware of this Achilles heel within the Church.
It therefore has to be dealt with - urgently and forcefully. Pope Benedict has been trying to show the way.
It does not take too much investigation to determine at least the current existence of gay friendly anti-Catholic, Catholic parishes.
New Ways Ministry, publishes an extensive list.
Dignity USA has a map of at least some of its chapters in Arizona : California : Colorado : District Of Columbia : Florida : Hawaii : Illinois : Indiana : Massachusetts : Michigan : Minnesota : New Jersey : New Mexico : New York : Ohio : Pennsylvania : Texas : Virginia : Washington : Wisconsin
Dignity Canada also has a website and list of chapters.
Those lists do not remotely include numerous other dissident gay friendly parishes throughout North America and elsewhere without official homosexual organization chapters so as not to let their existence be too uncomfortably known. For instance, There is the very prominent St Francis Xavier parish in New York city that has a regular contingent in the Gay Pride parade and there is the St. Joseph’s Church bulletin announcement in Ottawa, Canada.
But these are only a sliver of the full extent of the problem. There are also the hugely gay supportive and large, well-funded and politically powerful Catholic teachers’ unions.
Then there are the many orders and Catholic universities that reject most Catholic moral teaching, but especially the Church’s teaching against the acceptance of homosexual behaviour.
And then there are all the individuals in authority who skillfully keep their totally unrepentant immoral life and homosexual network (called the Lavender Mafia by some because of their bullying and other harsh treatment of outspokenly faithful bishops, priests and laity) well hidden from ordinary Catholics who trustingly think the world of most of them.
It is very good news to see more bishops coming out with very strong statements against homosexual “marriage” these days with the latest being in England. However, if they do not also take strong actions to rid the clergy, religious orders and Church institutions of their substantial gay subculture and its supporters (where it exists), I can’t see their efforts succeeding.
It appears that Archbishop Nichols has done a good thing. He should be congratulated. However, he has only scratched the surface of a far larger problem that is well known to exist in his diocese and in most of England. That is the homosexual and otherwise very dissenting sexual culture that has ruled within much of the Catholic Church in England for decades and crippled efforts to restore a culture of life and family to England.
It is time now. Time because there is very little time left. There must be more action now or a rapidly greater persecution and decline of faith will cause great damage to England.
It is also time for the rest of Europe that suffers from the same problem and for most of North America.
This is a crucial element for the struggle to restore a culture of life and family to these nations. Most do not realize how crucial it is.
When the various Christian churches, not just the Catholics, are largely cleansed of this rejection of authentic Christian morality, then a power of faith will be unleashed that nothing can stop. That is, people’s eyes and hearts will be opened to such a widespread extent that the liars, manipulators and exploiters will no longer be believed and followed.
Then we rebuild. But first priority must be given to putting our own families and churches in order. The rest will take care of itself.
I don't think scripture supports that reasoning.
I’ve been a professing Christian since I was baptized in 1981. I spent the first 18 years at Assembly of God and then bounced from Christian to Baptist to one that I’m not sure even belonged to any official church organization.
I’m not really into “church” any more. I see it all as man-made religion and severely flawed. I don’t see Christianity as “religion”. I don’t believe it has anything in common with anything else within the endeavors of human beings and therefore it is a “category unto itself”. I also see it as addressing two things: Man’s relationship with his fellow man and the individual’s personal relationship with his Creator.
Here in Kentucky I attend a Baptist church, but I just do it to stay in thouch with the first of those two activities. And then it is mostly social with some time spent studying the bible with others. My relationship with God has little to do with my church attendance.
And this article pinpoints one of my concerns about any religion organized by men seeking God. We are flawed. What we produce is flawed, sometimes overtly so.
In the Catholic Church, the doctrines emplaced against the Donatists make it very difficult to expel priests on the basis of heterodox character alone. Additional infractions are required and heterodox clergy are usually canny enough to avoid making them.
Mainline Protestant denominations are almost all rotten at the head and no help for the laity can be expected.
Protestant congregational and independent churches are a mixed bag. But once a heterodox leader becomes established it is frequently very difficult to unseat him.
In all cases, the easiest way to deal with this issue is leave the heterodox church and kick the dust from you feet. If enough people flee to orthodox parishes and churches, the heterodox ones will wither and die. If your denomination makes it likely that orthodox churches will be subject to unwelcome leadership changes (Methodists, for instance) it may be time for a denomination change.
The main purpose of going to church is to worship God and sing His praises. I do not think you are quite correct in stating that "church" has nothing to Christianity. However, I do agree to the extent that many churches have lost sight of their purpose. I don't attend regularly myself anymore. The church where my wife and I are members (a Presbyterian USA denomination church) has worked so hard to be inoffensive to homosexuals, pro-abortion types, et al, that I see no reason to attend. They want so badly to blend in with secular society that I see little difference between the church and secular worlds. Why go to secular church?
My Christian religion and Church are organized by the Holy Spirit using the guidance of God's infalible word, the Holy Bible. The Church and Doctrine are pure, perfect and Holy. The congregation, being fallen humans, are not so perfect which is why we need a savior - and have one.
Please consider, brothers, that you are to be under the authority of elders. We see the church so set up in the very popular book of Acts in chapter 15:
“And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them...
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. . . Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren. . .”
So you see from the very earliest time of the church, with the apostles still around, this is how things were to be run.
If we read the epistles we see that this did NOT guarantee that all the churches would be perfect. Indeed in Revelation Jesus describes the seven churches and some are clearly in great disrepair. Yet, God Himself instituted the church government, such as it is, and we are supposed to be part of it.
“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.” (please note they are ruling) (1st Tim 5:17)
Titus 1:5 and onwards: “For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.”
Whether called by the interchangeable terms bishops or elders, we are to have them, so God has instructed us, and not be surprised if they sometimes go south or the church has problems. We are to remain faithful and do things God’s way, not our own way.
I am sure that in your locality there is a Bible believing church with faithful elders and deacons serving as described in the Bible. If the elders/bishops/deacons in your church have left the way you may need to go to another church. But you should not leave the church all together. There is no scriptural warrant for that.
bookmark
Colombia.
The main purpose of going to church is to worship God and sing His praises.
>>I do not think you are quite correct in stating that “church” has nothing to Christianity.<<
Actually, I said “I don’t see Christianity as ‘religion’.” We are the church. And we call it church when we get together in His name. It is the perspective from which some epistles are written to “churches” and the messages to the seven “churches” in the first three chapters of Revelation.
In the rest of your post is an example of the spirit of the problem I have at church. Two examples:
1. My AG church preached “pre-trib rapture”. I believed it too. That is, until I actually studied it. I am now Pre-wrath. But it was taught there almost as if believing it was a coundition of salvation. A good discussion is here: http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/Definitions/PreTrib.htm
2. My current church (Babdis)so strongly believes that those that die without Christ will consciously suffer for all eternity that when I even floated the idea (as taught in the bible) that those in Christ go to eternal life and those that don’t go to death, the got visibly agitated. And discussing it was like arguing with liberals about Obama. And here is a good discussion on that one: http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
My wife and I take communion at home. I listen to the New Testament on CD during my 2.5 hour round trip commute every day and getting it in massive doses is actually very revealing, regarding the general spirit of it’s content. I get almost NO education in “church”, be it sunday school or the main service. I am there purely for social purposes and support, understanding that there are still things I can learn, but I’m past the “spiritual milk” phase, which most Baptist churches in the south (all of them that I have been to) have never progressed beyond.
It’s kind of like church, regarding the teaching of Christians about God and His plan, only includes grades K through 2. You are on your own (or seminary) to get beyond that. Do you know anyone that continues to attend the second grade as a student for years or decades? That is why, if it were not for the social “responsibility” part, I would not go at all. And when you try to discuss “high school level” Christianity you get KING JAMES BIBLE THUMPING responses, it is hard to take them seriously. But they don’t all respond that way or I’d be outa there.
My Christian religion and Church are organized by the Holy Spirit using the guidance of God’s infalible word, the Holy Bible. The Church and Doctrine are pure, perfect and Holy.
Which church is that?
I am sure that in your locality there is a Bible believing church with faithful elders and deacons serving as described in the Bible. If the elders/bishops/deacons in your church have left the way you may need to go to another church. But you should not leave the church all together. There is no scriptural warrant for that.
Your whole post is part of the reason I attend. I believe the scripture is clear when it says “do not forsake the gathering together of yourselves”. But I believe one of the main reasons for “church” is for the church to come together in the name of the Lord. I do not want to become what I call an “introverted” Christian. I believe a person can get steeped in all sorts of false doctrine if they do not discuss their “learning” from reading the bible and prayer with other Christians they can sometimes fall into some pretty whacky beliefs. It’s sort of a “centering” activity.
Heck, that is why I brought up the two subjects. I want to see if members of my church can show me where I may have erred in my interpretation of scripture.
The one consisting of all regenerate Christians of whatever denomination. "Ekklesia" (translated as "church") - the called out ones. The elect.
I have tried a few. Just because I have not found one yet, does not mean I won't. I am still looking. I have not given up on the idea of attending church. I've simply given up on the one I used to attend. A problem is that my wife still attends it. A week or so again, the minister of said church said he was asked to speak about "guns". He said that while he agreed that people should be allowed to own guns, he questioned whether people need so many. Just what I'd expect from a salvation-via-works lib.
I also asked if they had an official position on abortion and he said the LCMS is officially opposed to abortion.
We have never been disappointed for one moment by making the change. What a blessing!!
Maybe he meant “Universities such as Columbia.”
Unfortunately, these masses are not ending. They're just moving them to another location.
I’m part of that church. I thought you meant the particular local group of believers you met with on some regular basis.
Then you have a duty to fellowship with it. For its benefit not yours. If one doesn't regularly fellowship with the Saints then how will you know their needs, trials and how to serve them?
Then you have a duty to fellowship with it. For its benefit not yours. If one doesn’t regularly fellowship with the Saints then how will you know their needs, trials and how to serve them?
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