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The Rapture Will Not Occur Until the Saints Have Gone Through the Tribulation (vanity)
My Bible | 01/13/13 | Maddie10

Posted on 01/13/2013 9:28:12 PM PST by madison10

I cannot believe I never caught this before as I've been reading the Bible most of my life and have been listening to evangelists, preachers, etc for almost as long. (50+ years)

I started reading in the Song of Solomon last night, but ended up in the Book of Revelation. Here's the quote from Revelation, Chapter 14:

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

See verse 12? This statement is made more than once in Revelation. So I was rather unnerved and went to the Scripture that spoke of the Last Trumpet--I Corinthians 15 (NASB) Also in Revelation 13:10. If the saints are already "raptured" then why is their patient endurance required? Answer: They are not "raptured," they are still on the earth dealing with the antichrist.

The Mystery of Resurrection

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Then I flip back to Revelation and count to the Last Trumpet--The Seventh Trumpet (or when the Seventh Angel Blows the Trumpet)--Revelation 11.

The Seventh Trumpet—Christ’s Reign Foreseen

15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

What is weird is that I never tied the scriptures together before. Am I missing something? I see no where that is says we are to be rescued prior to the antichrist taking over.

Maybe someone else sees it, but IMHO there is no Rapture prior to the Tribulation, the Rapture IS the Coming of the Lord.

TOPICS: Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichrist; endtimes; prophecy; rapture; revelation; saints; tribulation
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1 posted on 01/13/2013 9:28:16 PM PST by madison10
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To: madison10

I tend to agree with your view. However, there are many others who have all sorts of positions on the timeline of Revelation.

I think the best thing to do in regard to the Book of Revelation is to not get too “tied” to a particular view because there are several approaches to its meaning - I just feel like God’s going to work it all out His way, so it’s just best to live today for Him and be faithful to what He has already plainly taught us in Scripture.

I wish the “pre-trib” people were correct, but I, like you, tend to believe that we will go through some major persecution. You can see it coming. God didn’t spare the first century Christians from facing terrible times, why should we be any different?

2 posted on 01/13/2013 9:36:47 PM PST by rusty schucklefurd
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To: madison10

I commend you for your perceptiveness.

The proof-texts offered for “the Rapture” have always been understood by the Church from Apostolic times onward as describing the experience of those Christians who will still alive on earth at the time of Christ’s Second and Glorious Advent and the General Resurrection. The sentimental notion that the glory of the Church in the Last Days will not be the same as its glory from its founding — martyrdom for Christ’s sake — because God will “Rapture” Christians before the great tribulation foretold in St. John’s Apocalypse is an heretical innovation unknown until the mid 19th century.

3 posted on 01/13/2013 9:38:28 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: madison10

The Mystery of Iniquity exposes and extinguishes the strong delusion that has become a false hope of the modern Church – the snare that has been set by Satan through many years of working behind the scenes. What began as gentle misleading has, through the years, taken a winding path to the valley of full deception. The Mystery of Iniquity is the warning of Yahshua (Jesus), Shaul (Paul), and Yochannan (John) concerning the absolute prerequisites to the return of the Messiah to gather the saints at the end of the age. That warning is not futuristic prophesy as it was in their day, but reiterated in the context of the accomplished deception of the Church in our modern times.

4 posted on 01/13/2013 9:47:23 PM PST by Errant
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To: madison10

I love it when people actually read the Bible and come up with a true interpretation.

I was taught the pretrib rapture theory for years, but it never worked when you compared it to scripture. Read some of the greatest writers defending it and it made no sense.

Was a preacher for many years and finally left the denomination ‘cuz they insisted that I should teach something that I could not believe.

That was too much for me. Even debated my mentor (a great man of God, and we still remained friends) But I was shunned. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe in, even though it may cost you.

Thanks for the post and God Bless You!


5 posted on 01/13/2013 9:49:28 PM PST by bobo1 (the KDE plasma desktop is awesome!)
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To: madison10
The rapture of the faithful in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming*

Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18;
Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14

Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3
Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30

He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52
Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30

Earth not judged
Earth judged Rev 20:4-5

A Mystery - 1 Co 15:51
Foretold in OT Zech 12:10

Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30
Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1

He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2
He comes with His Church for judgement and to set up his Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21

Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12
Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20

Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52
Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10

Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8
No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

Jesus comes as a thief in the night 1Th 24:43
Jesus comes at the end of 7 years of tribulation Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5

6 posted on 01/13/2013 9:51:29 PM PST by ExGeeEye (I'll give y'all 90 days for the wounds to heal; then we start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: madison10

I too hope the pre- trib preachers are right. The only real reason I think there will be a rapture of the Saints before the tribulation is because during the tribulation God is dealing with Israel. He isn’t focusing on we Saints .
All attention will be on Jerusalem and the Jewish people. This is my hope in a rapture of the saints. Also because this time will be worse than any since the world began, and he loves us so I don’t think we will suffer. Those who are saved after the rapture, both Jew and gentile, will suffer horribly and those are the ones he is talking about. There will be 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel and I don’t know how many Gentiles. Anyway this is how I see it but no one knows for sure what is the right way of events. I trust Him and He will see me through. I think this is one good part of being old, we aren’t far from heaven what ever happens.

7 posted on 01/13/2013 9:52:09 PM PST by Ramonne
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To: bobo1

After the tribulation of those days...

8 posted on 01/13/2013 9:52:51 PM PST by Doofer (Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.)
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To: madison10
"They tell how you...wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thessalonians 1:10
9 posted on 01/13/2013 9:54:11 PM PST by ExGeeEye (I'll give y'all 90 days for the wounds to heal; then we start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: rusty schucklefurd

i can see evidence for both views, pre, and in the middle of the tribulation. i personally see more for the latter than the former.

my own personal views are if pretrib is right, i will happily accept it. if not i know i’ll either die fighting or be going upwards at the midpoint.

rev3:10 also supports an later rapture as the word most often translated “from” (from the hour of temptation) can also be translated “through”.

I also think of Noah. Noah and his family were not raptured out of the worldwide flood, they were kicked around all over by the largest torrents and storms ever to hit the earth, they were carried through their tribulation.

10 posted on 01/13/2013 9:54:49 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: madison10

There will be those who believe during the Tribulation, receiving the Word from the Two Witnesses (believed to be Enoch and Elijah and/or the 144K missionaries.. They will refuse to take the Mark, be persecuted, and killed.

11 posted on 01/13/2013 9:56:43 PM PST by ExGeeEye (I'll give y'all 90 days for the wounds to heal; then we start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: ExGeeEye

omissions in one account but detailed in another doesn’t mean the events are two different events, automatically. look at the gospels, they have many common facts, but sometimes only one mentions specific details, or in a common event they are described with a couple different details.

12 posted on 01/13/2013 9:58:50 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: ExGeeEye

well you can also look’at the events in this seven year period’and say things really don’t get incredibly’bad’until the middle when antichrist reveals himself.

13 posted on 01/13/2013 10:01:28 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: madison10

It’s very difficult to sway individuals regarding the matter of “the rapture” and the timing of it. I’ve felt for some time, based upon my own reading, that Christians will experience tribulation and persecution to some extent. Others believe strongly that they’ll be removed before this occurs.

I hope they’re right, but my heart and my eyes tell me otherwise.

What is also clear to me, however, is that the Church will not be present throughout. So, there is a “rapture.”

Christians can and do disagree upon this in good faith. The vehemence with which the disagreements are argued can be disturbing, though.

14 posted on 01/13/2013 10:06:18 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: madison10

“If the saints are already “raptured” then why is their patient endurance required? Answer: They are not “raptured,” they are still on the earth dealing with the antichrist.”

There will be saints after the rapture, those who turn to Christ later, those who were not taken the first time.

Two comings of Christ that are different in nature are described in the Bible. First coming:

1 Thess. 4:13-18 -
Meeting the church in the air.

1 Corinthians 15:52 -
No signs to herald Christ’s coming for his Church. This will come in the twinkling of an eye.

Second Coming:
Zechariah 14:4 - No meeting in the air, Jesus returns to earth on the Mount of Olives

Revelation 1:7
“every eye shall see him”
Unlike the rapture, Jesus will be seen by all.

Finally, the gospels say Jesus Christ returns and conquers the earth where people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, separating the sheep from the goats. If this is the same event as the rapture there would be no sheep left since they’ve already been taken to the air.

15 posted on 01/13/2013 10:06:42 PM PST by ScottfromNJ
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To: madison10
Who is the anti-Christ... or more correctly said the instead of Christ? Mark 13:23 Christ states ...”But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.”

This would have been said before any jot or tittle of the so called New Testament ever got placed upon plant or animal products. After Christ gives this ‘warning’ in Mark 13, Christ then proceeds to quote one of the holy prophets as Peter calls them...

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in the heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Christ is returning to this earth to clean house. Now why would His church/bride be going some place where Christ is not?

Christ said for the elect’s sake time would be shortened. Obviously Christ was aware of Daniel's prophecy, and all of what is foretold would happen will happen but in quick time. As is noted in Revelation 12:12 “........... Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. WOE to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”

16 posted on 01/13/2013 10:18:13 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: RegulatorCountry

My wife and her family are rock-solid “pre-trib” people. I have tried and tried to decipher what the truth is, but cannot.

I am extremely afraid of going through the Tribulation. I desperately want the Rapture to occur pre-Trib. I am an admitted wimp. I would not stand up to persecution, torture, and starvation, or having to watch my wife or kids go through that. I’m probably one of those who’d end up taking the Mark in order for my wife and kids to survive, knowing it’ll send me to an eternal Hell.

That’s just me, being honest.

17 posted on 01/13/2013 10:32:34 PM PST by hoagy62 ("Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered..."-Thomas Paine. 1776)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Mark 4:9

May the Lord bless your reading of His Word.

18 posted on 01/13/2013 10:33:01 PM PST by ExGeeEye (I'll give y'all 90 days for the wounds to heal; then we start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: rusty schucklefurd

[[God didn’t spare the first century Christians from facing terrible times, why should we be any different?]]

Because we’re special- seriously htough- the first persecutions were not end timesd related- nor are current persecutions- in only just a few short decades a couple hundred million CHristians have been murdered for their faith or tortured-

I personally don’t know what position to take- I beleive in pretrib, but am resigned to the idea that I could be wrong- I’ve heard strogn arguments for all three positions ‘pre-mid-post’ trib. I’ve coem to a fairly certain conclusion that the trib is meant for the Jewish nation- Whiel Christians are adopted Jews/children of God, (there’s soem evidence that we may even be descendents of htel ost tribe of Ephraim, making westerners mostly jewish anyways- but there’s also some evidence that this isn’t true- not sure what to beleive hteir either) but the end tiems are to brign hte nation of Israel back under God- not the gentiles-
Marv Rosenthal teaches mid trib I beleive, and he’s got soem strogn points- however, post trib also has soem strong points too-

19 posted on 01/13/2013 10:56:26 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: The_Reader_David

You need to read I Thess. Paul wrote that letter to them to reassure them that they had not missed the rapture. They had been given a letter, supposedly from Paul, that said that they were already in the tribulation. Paul restates what he had taught them when he was first there in person. This was also revealed in his letter to the Corinthians (I Cor 15)

Re-read chapter six and seven of Revelation. The seals are not judgments, they discribe the condition of the earth (seals one through four)The plea of the martyrs in the fifth seal, then (this gets interesting) the sixth seal, has the sealing of the 144,000 (an angel states that harm to the earth can not happen until they are sealed) from Israel, then, a number of people in heaven that no one could number from every nation, tribe, people and language standing before the throne. They are identified as those who came out from the great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The greek word for “came out” means to be removed from the place, time, and cause of the tribulation.

Its the same word used in Rev 3:10 in the promise given to the church in Philidelpha. Jesus promised to keep take them away from the time and place of the tribulation.

I do not understand the attacks that are heaped upon people who hold to a pre-tribulation transfiguration (Rapture). I want to spread the good news to everyone so that they all will be spared having to live through the awful time soon to come on this earth. It does not make me want to sit back and say “Oh well too bad for you” and I am not waiting around doing nothing because of this belief.

This view was taught in the church until around the mid third or fouth century, then it was no longer taught. A literal reading of scripture proves this as Paul was allowed to share this with the early church.


20 posted on 01/13/2013 11:04:03 PM PST by coincheck (Time is Short, Salvation is for Today)
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