Posted on 01/13/2013 9:28:12 PM PST by madison10
I cannot believe I never caught this before as I've been reading the Bible most of my life and have been listening to evangelists, preachers, etc for almost as long. (50+ years)
I started reading in the Song of Solomon last night, but ended up in the Book of Revelation. Here's the quote from Revelation, Chapter 14:
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
See verse 12? This statement is made more than once in Revelation. So I was rather unnerved and went to the Scripture that spoke of the Last Trumpet--I Corinthians 15 (NASB) Also in Revelation 13:10. If the saints are already "raptured" then why is their patient endurance required? Answer: They are not "raptured," they are still on the earth dealing with the antichrist.
The Mystery of Resurrection
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Then I flip back to Revelation and count to the Last Trumpet--The Seventh Trumpet (or when the Seventh Angel Blows the Trumpet)--Revelation 11.
The Seventh Trumpet—Christ’s Reign Foreseen
15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
What is weird is that I never tied the scriptures together before. Am I missing something? I see no where that is says we are to be rescued prior to the antichrist taking over.
Maybe someone else sees it, but IMHO there is no Rapture prior to the Tribulation, the Rapture IS the Coming of the Lord.
The perseverance encouraged is prior to the Rapture for those believers enduring worldly consequences of rejecting the mark of the beast. Later verses identify those believers who take the mark, also are sent to the Lake of Fire along with unbelievers.
I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
John 10:10
You have come to the correct conclusion. The only Rapture is the one which will occur when Christ returns in judgment, an event known as the parousia.
no
Paul never taught the erarly church to expect tribulation, to store food, to move to a safe spot
h taught the early church to expect Jesus to return at any moment
any theology that denies the rapture is denying the Bible
The best and most detailed book on this is
maranatha! our lord come
by Renald Showers
it might be online somewhere free, please read it
Yes. But not two second comings, as you indicate. It is composed of two stages of His Second Coming. When The God makes changes of dispensations, of covenants, of judgments, He generally does it in stages. The pattern:
o Stage I. Private -- A preliminary disclosure to a select group of intimates; announced privately to His faithful ones, by a messenger, by Himself, by an angel, or by a prophet.
o Stage II. Public -- A manifestation seen by all, affecting all, preceded by protection or removal of His faithful from the calamitous event to follow.
This pattern can be seen with Lot vs Gomorrah, Moses vs Pharaoh/Egypt, Daniel vs overthrow of Babylon, etc.
Regarding The First Coming (parousia) of The Messiah/Christ/Anointed One:
Stage I. Private -- Announcements privately to Zecharias, Miriam, Elizabeth, Joseph, the shepherds, Simeon, Anna; and kept close by them in His formative years.
Stage II. Public ministry -- Announcements for all to see; publicly made by John Baptizer the prophet, as well as by The God Himself at His baptism; seen publicly by all, especially His death on the cross.
See? well, His second coming is expected thus by His saints, informed by the inspired Scripture:
Stage I. Private -- the catching up (harpadzo, snatching away)into the heavens of all the NT saints in their new bodies; announced by the voice of the archangel; for the purpose of judgment of the works of regenerated believers, the Heavenly Marriage and banquet, and instruction in governing the earth after their accompaniment in the second phase of His return.
While this is going on, left-behind unregenerated believer-religionists will have to suffer the vicissitudes of the tribulation, some perhaps being converted, many losing physical life. But many shall be saved to inhabit the earthly Kingdom of The Christ when established.
Stage II Public -- His return to the earth at Petra; from whence He shall march forward to the Mount of Olives, bloodily vanquishing the Adversary and human opponents by himself (as He by Himself purged our sins) observed by His onlooking chaste noncombatant Bride; then rejoined by His Church on earth as His foot touches Olivet for the Valorous Procession and installation of His Regent David to rule the earth from Zion.
His Grace-Age living saints will not have to suffer agony and death in the great corruptive tribulation any more than Noah and his family did in the Flood, nor Lot and his daughters in the firestorm destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
At least, this is the way I have seen it in the grand view of God's workings.
Two stages, private, then public -- capisce?
===========
Finally, the gospels say Jesus Christ returns and conquers the earth where people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, separating the sheep from the goats. If this is the same event as the rapture there would be no sheep left since they’ve already been taken to the air.
This tract announced in Matthew 25:31+ is the judgment of nations immediately upon the institution of His earthly thousand-year reign, not the Great White Throne judgment of resurrected unbelieving individuals at the end of that reigning period.
Respectfully --
The King of Kings will do the final war with the help of the angels and the male saints, those from Heaven and with those on earth.
congratulations... you are now a catholic... welcome brother
Lands of Goshen....areas protected by God the same way the Hebrews were when the Plagues fell on Egypt proper.(You just have to get to them)
Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. (Malachi 3:16
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints (Jude 14)
While you may think every believer must some how be purified by the Tribulation, Christ said we would not ever see God’s wrath. The Trib is His wrath. Thus, we will not see the Trib wrath. Why all you folks seem to think we must be purified is beyond me. God’s grace. His forgiveness of our sins. His saving us. Would you have a Bride and beat the heck out of her for seven years, then take her home and ask her to marry you? That is what going through the Trib would be. Christ taking His bride and letting her be beat up for 7 years. I do not see that happening. We have been forgiven when we BELIEVED. Why do we have to PROVE it by getting through the Trib? There is nothing in scripture that says that. Paul makes it clear. I believe what Paul wrote.
A rapture would absolutely collapse the United States. There are Christians every-where in all positions of power, technology, and business and their sudden disappearance(yes with a multitude of Godly very surprised Catholics) would be like kicking out all the support studs in a house that keep the walls and roof up!
The sudden loss of the US could create the power vacuums necessary for the “BEAST system to go full on live”. It could happen pre to mid trib. Or perhaps because of our national sins,we fall well before any rapture at all with Christians in the Balkanized areas of the former US trying to pick up the pieces of our national folly just prior to any rapture or 7 years tribulation.
I've heard this a lot and to my mind it makes no sense.
If people actually know the pre-trib rapture didn't happen then it follows that they recognize they are in the tribulation.One of the things that clue them in is the fact that the anti-christ has been revealed,7 yr treaty etc etc.They will then know this is all true and happening before their very eyes.They can count the days till he walks into the temple,they can count the days right down to the day Jesus arrives.They litterally will be able to tell people they know what is going to happen and it will happen exactly on those days.It makes no sense whatever to think that the effect this will have is to make people lose faith.The exact opposite is what one would expect.
ping to #52
bfl
There are two distinct references to the resurrection of the dead.
1 Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.”
And again, a part of Revelation that is always ignored because of its simplicity and exact description, Revelation 20:4-6
4 “Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”
There is a sentence crucial to all. “THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.”
Therefore, the first resurrection occurs for those who have been martyred. “THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT COME TO LIFE UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE COMPLETED.”
I believe the rapture occurs when God the Father calls all the saints at the end of this age, before He destroys this universe and then creates the New Heaven/Earth where we are for the rest of eternity.
Being a post-tribber for 40 years now I know that God can do miracles to save His remnant. Those who do live through the tribulation will suffer the natural calamities, drought and famine because it rains on the just and unjust so why not NO RAIN on the just and the unjust? However, the wrath of God will not be experienced by those who are righteous for God is just. Does everyone get the flu? Have faith and know that whether in life or death, He is in control. I also think the survivors will live hundreds of years longer than now, for things return to normal.
Many miracles occurred during the holocaust. It would be good to read about them again.
For those who died for their faith, there is the first resurrection. Serving the King of Kings and Lord of Lords during His victorious reign on earth. What a wonderful, wonderful time. Angels guarding the streets, resurrected righteous judges who cannot be bought, lions eating straw, etc., etc., are all tiny bits of the peace and joy and love that will be experienced. Use your imagination and go there for HOPE and faith, the hope and faith of Abraham.
Paul talks about experiencing tribulation in Romans.
Also...
Acts 14:19 But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead. 20 But while the disciples stood around him, he got up and entered the city. The next day he went away with Barnabas to Derbe. 21 After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.” 23 When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.
I go with Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10. It gives me assurance from people like you. You want to suffer? Get on with it. You are trying to stir up strife.
That’s just me, being honest.
Most of those people have already been buried, the point being that there are most likely many more people who believed in the rapture who are already dead than what there are who believe in it that are alive today.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Cor 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
We do not escape death and the grave but there is no sting in the death or victory of the grave because it can not keep us. the only thing it can hold is a flesh and blood body that can not inheriet the kingdom of God in the first place, see verse 15:50.
I do not know that every one will go through the tribulation in the same sense, but i think that every one who holds Jesus as lord will go through a tribulation of some kind even if it is of their own making and that since flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of God then every one will die.
15:36
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
It is natural to be afraid, even the Apostles were afraid and so will it be with us who really take the Gospel serious
that is why paul goes to a lot of trouble to explain to us that the end will be well worth the trouble.
Personally, it scares the hell out of me.
You most certainly are. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Why comfort one another with these words.
When Jesus comes at the end of the Tribulation there is no “meeting in the air”. At that point the saints are with Him to destroy the armies that have come against Israel. The church is the bride of Christ. As in the old Jewish wedding customs the church/bride is taken to heaven for the seven years of the Tribulation just as the bride and groom are sequestered for seven days after the wedding.
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