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The Rapture Will Not Occur Until the Saints Have Gone Through the Tribulation (vanity)
My Bible | 01/13/13 | Maddie10

Posted on 01/13/2013 9:28:12 PM PST by madison10

I cannot believe I never caught this before as I've been reading the Bible most of my life and have been listening to evangelists, preachers, etc for almost as long. (50+ years)

I started reading in the Song of Solomon last night, but ended up in the Book of Revelation. Here's the quote from Revelation, Chapter 14:

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

See verse 12? This statement is made more than once in Revelation. So I was rather unnerved and went to the Scripture that spoke of the Last Trumpet--I Corinthians 15 (NASB) Also in Revelation 13:10. If the saints are already "raptured" then why is their patient endurance required? Answer: They are not "raptured," they are still on the earth dealing with the antichrist.

The Mystery of Resurrection

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Then I flip back to Revelation and count to the Last Trumpet--The Seventh Trumpet (or when the Seventh Angel Blows the Trumpet)--Revelation 11.

The Seventh Trumpet—Christ’s Reign Foreseen

15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

What is weird is that I never tied the scriptures together before. Am I missing something? I see no where that is says we are to be rescued prior to the antichrist taking over.

Maybe someone else sees it, but IMHO there is no Rapture prior to the Tribulation, the Rapture IS the Coming of the Lord.


TOPICS: Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichrist; endtimes; prophecy; rapture; revelation; saints; tribulation
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1 posted on 01/13/2013 9:28:16 PM PST by madison10
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To: madison10

I tend to agree with your view. However, there are many others who have all sorts of positions on the timeline of Revelation.

I think the best thing to do in regard to the Book of Revelation is to not get too “tied” to a particular view because there are several approaches to its meaning - I just feel like God’s going to work it all out His way, so it’s just best to live today for Him and be faithful to what He has already plainly taught us in Scripture.

I wish the “pre-trib” people were correct, but I, like you, tend to believe that we will go through some major persecution. You can see it coming. God didn’t spare the first century Christians from facing terrible times, why should we be any different?


2 posted on 01/13/2013 9:36:47 PM PST by rusty schucklefurd
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To: madison10

I commend you for your perceptiveness.

The proof-texts offered for “the Rapture” have always been understood by the Church from Apostolic times onward as describing the experience of those Christians who will still alive on earth at the time of Christ’s Second and Glorious Advent and the General Resurrection. The sentimental notion that the glory of the Church in the Last Days will not be the same as its glory from its founding — martyrdom for Christ’s sake — because God will “Rapture” Christians before the great tribulation foretold in St. John’s Apocalypse is an heretical innovation unknown until the mid 19th century.


3 posted on 01/13/2013 9:38:28 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: madison10

The Mystery of Iniquity exposes and extinguishes the strong delusion that has become a false hope of the modern Church – the snare that has been set by Satan through many years of working behind the scenes. What began as gentle misleading has, through the years, taken a winding path to the valley of full deception. The Mystery of Iniquity is the warning of Yahshua (Jesus), Shaul (Paul), and Yochannan (John) concerning the absolute prerequisites to the return of the Messiah to gather the saints at the end of the age. That warning is not futuristic prophesy as it was in their day, but reiterated in the context of the accomplished deception of the Church in our modern times.

4 posted on 01/13/2013 9:47:23 PM PST by Errant
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To: madison10

I love it when people actually read the Bible and come up with a true interpretation.

I was taught the pretrib rapture theory for years, but it never worked when you compared it to scripture. Read some of the greatest writers defending it and it made no sense.

Was a preacher for many years and finally left the denomination ‘cuz they insisted that I should teach something that I could not believe.

That was too much for me. Even debated my mentor (a great man of God, and we still remained friends) But I was shunned. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe in, even though it may cost you.

Thanks for the post and God Bless You!

bobo


5 posted on 01/13/2013 9:49:28 PM PST by bobo1 (the KDE plasma desktop is awesome!)
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To: madison10
The rapture of the faithful in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming*

Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18;
Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14

Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3
Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30

He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52
Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30

Earth not judged
Earth judged Rev 20:4-5

A Mystery - 1 Co 15:51
Foretold in OT Zech 12:10

Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30
Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1

He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2
He comes with His Church for judgement and to set up his Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21

Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12
Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20

Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52
Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10

Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8
No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

Jesus comes as a thief in the night 1Th 24:43
Jesus comes at the end of 7 years of tribulation Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5

6 posted on 01/13/2013 9:51:29 PM PST by ExGeeEye (I'll give y'all 90 days for the wounds to heal; then we start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: madison10

I too hope the pre- trib preachers are right. The only real reason I think there will be a rapture of the Saints before the tribulation is because during the tribulation God is dealing with Israel. He isn’t focusing on we Saints .
All attention will be on Jerusalem and the Jewish people. This is my hope in a rapture of the saints. Also because this time will be worse than any since the world began, and he loves us so I don’t think we will suffer. Those who are saved after the rapture, both Jew and gentile, will suffer horribly and those are the ones he is talking about. There will be 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel and I don’t know how many Gentiles. Anyway this is how I see it but no one knows for sure what is the right way of events. I trust Him and He will see me through. I think this is one good part of being old, we aren’t far from heaven what ever happens.


7 posted on 01/13/2013 9:52:09 PM PST by Ramonne
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To: bobo1

After the tribulation of those days...


8 posted on 01/13/2013 9:52:51 PM PST by Doofer (Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.)
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To: madison10
"They tell how you...wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thessalonians 1:10
9 posted on 01/13/2013 9:54:11 PM PST by ExGeeEye (I'll give y'all 90 days for the wounds to heal; then we start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: rusty schucklefurd

i can see evidence for both views, pre, and in the middle of the tribulation. i personally see more for the latter than the former.

my own personal views are if pretrib is right, i will happily accept it. if not i know i’ll either die fighting or be going upwards at the midpoint.

rev3:10 also supports an later rapture as the word most often translated “from” (from the hour of temptation) can also be translated “through”.

I also think of Noah. Noah and his family were not raptured out of the worldwide flood, they were kicked around all over by the largest torrents and storms ever to hit the earth, they were carried through their tribulation.


10 posted on 01/13/2013 9:54:49 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: madison10

There will be those who believe during the Tribulation, receiving the Word from the Two Witnesses (believed to be Enoch and Elijah and/or the 144K missionaries.. They will refuse to take the Mark, be persecuted, and killed.


11 posted on 01/13/2013 9:56:43 PM PST by ExGeeEye (I'll give y'all 90 days for the wounds to heal; then we start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: ExGeeEye

omissions in one account but detailed in another doesn’t mean the events are two different events, automatically. look at the gospels, they have many common facts, but sometimes only one mentions specific details, or in a common event they are described with a couple different details.


12 posted on 01/13/2013 9:58:50 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: ExGeeEye

well you can also look’at the events in this seven year period’and say things really don’t get incredibly’bad’until the middle when antichrist reveals himself.


13 posted on 01/13/2013 10:01:28 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: madison10

It’s very difficult to sway individuals regarding the matter of “the rapture” and the timing of it. I’ve felt for some time, based upon my own reading, that Christians will experience tribulation and persecution to some extent. Others believe strongly that they’ll be removed before this occurs.

I hope they’re right, but my heart and my eyes tell me otherwise.

What is also clear to me, however, is that the Church will not be present throughout. So, there is a “rapture.”

Christians can and do disagree upon this in good faith. The vehemence with which the disagreements are argued can be disturbing, though.


14 posted on 01/13/2013 10:06:18 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: madison10

“If the saints are already “raptured” then why is their patient endurance required? Answer: They are not “raptured,” they are still on the earth dealing with the antichrist.”

There will be saints after the rapture, those who turn to Christ later, those who were not taken the first time.

Two comings of Christ that are different in nature are described in the Bible. First coming:

1 Thess. 4:13-18 -
Meeting the church in the air.

1 Corinthians 15:52 -
No signs to herald Christ’s coming for his Church. This will come in the twinkling of an eye.

Second Coming:
Zechariah 14:4 - No meeting in the air, Jesus returns to earth on the Mount of Olives

Revelation 1:7
“every eye shall see him”
Unlike the rapture, Jesus will be seen by all.

Finally, the gospels say Jesus Christ returns and conquers the earth where people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, separating the sheep from the goats. If this is the same event as the rapture there would be no sheep left since they’ve already been taken to the air.


15 posted on 01/13/2013 10:06:42 PM PST by ScottfromNJ
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To: madison10
Who is the anti-Christ... or more correctly said the instead of Christ? Mark 13:23 Christ states ...”But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.”

This would have been said before any jot or tittle of the so called New Testament ever got placed upon plant or animal products. After Christ gives this ‘warning’ in Mark 13, Christ then proceeds to quote one of the holy prophets as Peter calls them...

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in the heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Christ is returning to this earth to clean house. Now why would His church/bride be going some place where Christ is not?

Christ said for the elect’s sake time would be shortened. Obviously Christ was aware of Daniel's prophecy, and all of what is foretold would happen will happen but in quick time. As is noted in Revelation 12:12 “........... Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. WOE to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”

16 posted on 01/13/2013 10:18:13 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: RegulatorCountry

My wife and her family are rock-solid “pre-trib” people. I have tried and tried to decipher what the truth is, but cannot.

I am extremely afraid of going through the Tribulation. I desperately want the Rapture to occur pre-Trib. I am an admitted wimp. I would not stand up to persecution, torture, and starvation, or having to watch my wife or kids go through that. I’m probably one of those who’d end up taking the Mark in order for my wife and kids to survive, knowing it’ll send me to an eternal Hell.

That’s just me, being honest.


17 posted on 01/13/2013 10:32:34 PM PST by hoagy62 ("Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered..."-Thomas Paine. 1776)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Mark 4:9

May the Lord bless your reading of His Word.


18 posted on 01/13/2013 10:33:01 PM PST by ExGeeEye (I'll give y'all 90 days for the wounds to heal; then we start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: rusty schucklefurd

[[God didn’t spare the first century Christians from facing terrible times, why should we be any different?]]

Because we’re special- seriously htough- the first persecutions were not end timesd related- nor are current persecutions- in only just a few short decades a couple hundred million CHristians have been murdered for their faith or tortured-

I personally don’t know what position to take- I beleive in pretrib, but am resigned to the idea that I could be wrong- I’ve heard strogn arguments for all three positions ‘pre-mid-post’ trib. I’ve coem to a fairly certain conclusion that the trib is meant for the Jewish nation- Whiel Christians are adopted Jews/children of God, (there’s soem evidence that we may even be descendents of htel ost tribe of Ephraim, making westerners mostly jewish anyways- but there’s also some evidence that this isn’t true- not sure what to beleive hteir either) but the end tiems are to brign hte nation of Israel back under God- not the gentiles-
Marv Rosenthal teaches mid trib I beleive, and he’s got soem strogn points- however, post trib also has soem strong points too-


19 posted on 01/13/2013 10:56:26 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: The_Reader_David

You need to read I Thess. Paul wrote that letter to them to reassure them that they had not missed the rapture. They had been given a letter, supposedly from Paul, that said that they were already in the tribulation. Paul restates what he had taught them when he was first there in person. This was also revealed in his letter to the Corinthians (I Cor 15)

Re-read chapter six and seven of Revelation. The seals are not judgments, they discribe the condition of the earth (seals one through four)The plea of the martyrs in the fifth seal, then (this gets interesting) the sixth seal, has the sealing of the 144,000 (an angel states that harm to the earth can not happen until they are sealed) from Israel, then, a number of people in heaven that no one could number from every nation, tribe, people and language standing before the throne. They are identified as those who came out from the great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The greek word for “came out” means to be removed from the place, time, and cause of the tribulation.

Its the same word used in Rev 3:10 in the promise given to the church in Philidelpha. Jesus promised to keep take them away from the time and place of the tribulation.

I do not understand the attacks that are heaped upon people who hold to a pre-tribulation transfiguration (Rapture). I want to spread the good news to everyone so that they all will be spared having to live through the awful time soon to come on this earth. It does not make me want to sit back and say “Oh well too bad for you” and I am not waiting around doing nothing because of this belief.

This view was taught in the church until around the mid third or fouth century, then it was no longer taught. A literal reading of scripture proves this as Paul was allowed to share this with the early church.

Maranatha!!!


20 posted on 01/13/2013 11:04:03 PM PST by coincheck (Time is Short, Salvation is for Today)
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To: Secret Agent Man
"rev3:10 also supports an later rapture as the word most often translated “from” (from the hour of temptation) can also be translated “through”."

Rev 3:10 also supports a pre-trib rapture because sometimes "from" actually means from.

Also in Rev 3 The church that "hast kept the word of my patience" has "before thee an open door, and no man can shut it" and "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation"

Whilst the church that thinks it has everything has "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock"..ie:the door is not open and no man shut it.

Psalm 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

21 posted on 01/13/2013 11:11:05 PM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: ExGeeEye

thanks, right back to you! good verse. :)


22 posted on 01/13/2013 11:13:03 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: hoagy62

[[I am extremely afraid of going through the Tribulation.]]

I’m pretrib- but don’t be afraid IF we have to endure soem of the trib- to put your mind at ease- read tim lahaye’s ‘left behind’ series- it’s semi fiction that kind of describes how things might play out during the tribulation- God will take care of His own in miraculous ways (although I beleive the left behind series talsk abotu God taking care of people that are saved AFTER the church is raptured, as thsoe left behind begin to realize that their Christian friends were right all along’

There will msotl ikely be peopel with great finacial means who get saved shortly after the rapture, who will then provide for God’s peopel durign hte tribulation (and htere’s even soem suggestion that peopel with illnesses deformities etc, will be cured durign hte trib so that they will be fit to defend Israel, the refuge, where they will flock to to defend the Jews

IF we have to go through the trib, it’ll be rough, but doable- Things will defiantely DRASTICALLY change for us- no doubt- However, I beleive we will have supernatural protectiosn even if we are to be martyred- where God gives us supernatural strength to handle beign martyred if God so deems it necessary for us- There are written reports abotu Christians who were beign tortured singing and happily looking forward to meetign Christ- God gave them the supernatural power to endure the ordeal- I beleive that if it coems to that- we too will be enowed with htis power from on high


23 posted on 01/13/2013 11:17:37 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: hoagy62

[[I’m probably one of those who’d end up taking the Mark in order for my wife and kids to survive, knowing it’ll send me to an eternal Hell]]

If you’re a born again Christian, even takign hte mark will NOT send you to hell- ‘No man can remove the saved’s name from the lambs book of life- not even you yourself- True salvation is eternal- regardless of what we do after we becoem saved-


24 posted on 01/13/2013 11:19:34 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: hoagy62
Fair enough comment which most could probably relate to to some degree at least.

Don't worry though,Peter denied Jesus three times but later was out preaching in public on pain of death.

Don't think for a moment that God is doing 'nothing' in you."Be not afraid, only believe." (Mark 5:36)

25 posted on 01/13/2013 11:20:16 PM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: hoagy62
My wife and her family are rock-solid “pre-trib” people. I have tried and tried to decipher what the truth is, but cannot.

I am extremely afraid of going through the Tribulation. I desperately want the Rapture to occur pre-Trib. I am an admitted wimp. I would not stand up to persecution, torture, and starvation, or having to watch my wife or kids go through that. I’m probably one of those who’d end up taking the Mark in order for my wife and kids to survive, knowing it’ll send me to an eternal Hell.

That’s just me, being honest.

That's being very honest, I applaud that. I can't say with certainty what I would do. I would like to think that I would not.
26 posted on 01/14/2013 12:31:48 AM PST by 98ZJ USMC
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To: madison10

1. In Revelation after John is carried to Heaven to observe there is no more mention of the Church on Earth. John being carried up to Heaven represents the rapture. During all the things that are going on on Earth mentioned in Revelation, none included any mention of the Church.
2. Yes there will be saints on Earth during the Tribulation because many people will be saved during that tribulation.


27 posted on 01/14/2013 12:47:31 AM PST by Ecliptic (.)
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To: coincheck; Just mythoughts

****the sixth seal, has the sealing of the 144,000 (an angel states that harm to the earth can not happen until they are sealed) from Israel****

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in the heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Jesus told the ruling Pharisees that He would not come until they called out his name. There is an Old Testament story where Joseph has a dream of the Sun Moon and Stars...“Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

Then he told his father and brothers and this is what Israel said to him...”When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Joseph’s father Israel rightly interpreted the dream as describing the house of Israel as the Son, the Moon and the Stars(11 stars plus Joseph for the twelve tribes of Israel).

I think it means that Jesus will not come back until the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel fall on their knees and call out for his return.


28 posted on 01/14/2013 1:11:17 AM PST by ResponseAbility (The truth of liberalism is the stupid can feel smart, the lazy entitled, and the immoral unashamed)
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To: madison10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrkRSaJJEJ8

Esplains it all


29 posted on 01/14/2013 1:12:17 AM PST by onona (KCCO, and mind the gap)
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To: ExGeeEye
Thank you ExGeeEye.

There is not none verse of Scripture that supports or validates post-Trib mythology.

This is the promise from Jesus Christ Himself that settles the entire issue:

‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Revelation 3:10)

30 posted on 01/14/2013 1:29:09 AM PST by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Secret Agent Man
Noah and his family are a picture of Israel, which will be preserved through the Tribulation.

The picture of the church is Enoch who, as God tells us, was a righteous man who walked with God and was "raptured" before the flood.

31 posted on 01/14/2013 1:32:13 AM PST by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: madison10

It is the tribulation that generates the rapture of the Saints. The discomfort and feeling of pure hell is a strong motivator to focus on God for your strength.

We are in that period right now.

Matthew 24: 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah!’ or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

If you understand verse 27, you will understand the rapture and also understand that Jesus is already here. Being “raised up” can also mean “grown up” as in the seeds planted in the wheat field when they are ready for harvest.(Matthew 13) or waking up, since we have been asleep.

This is so simple, I wish everyone could experience it. Just follow the focus of your prayers and you will see.

We are in very interesting times.


32 posted on 01/14/2013 1:32:37 AM PST by tired&retired
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To: madison10
WhyGod's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

33 posted on 01/14/2013 1:43:53 AM PST by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: madison10

“Rapture IS the Coming of the Lord”

Just as Jesus stated after going through the dark night of the soul, “My Father and I are One.”

And I am in My Father and My Father is in Me, and if you are also in Me then My Father that is in Me is also in you. (Communion is merely us recognizing that Christ is in us.)

The tribulation is to the Saints what the dark night of the soul was to Jesus. It is a period of letting go of our anchors (or ballast) in order that our consciousness can “raise up.” When we raise up, we wake up and see that Jesus is already here. In the east and west at the same time as Jesus exists within us, and we also exist in Him. The experience of tribulation causes us to climb higher on the ladder to a level where we can “see.”

One of the attributes of the soul going through this experience is that your conscious awareness is no longer limited to the physical body and the five senses. That is what Paul was referring to when he spoke of “dying daily.” It is a dying of our attachment to our bodies.

When this happened to me, it really freaked me out as I became aware of the thoughts of people around me as their thoughts become physical tangible objects when perceived by my soul. It also became relatively easy to know the life history of a person around me as all the memories of their experiences are stored in their soul like billboards, available for all to see.

The “Tower of Babel” concept also applies to consciousness. And just as the Dutch atomic physicist Neils Bohr discovered with electrons lowering themselves to an inner orbital give off a photon, when Jesus’ consciousness lowers to us, we see it give off the light of the Holy Spirit. This is the reason that God is Light. Jesus just wants us to raise up to him.

Prayer is the tool to find, experience and see Jesus.


34 posted on 01/14/2013 1:53:48 AM PST by tired&retired
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To: Secret Agent Man

Since Noah’s family was the only small group of people left alive on the earth, in a sense we ALL were on that ark with them, in the seed of their mortal bodies - we had to have been. - Irvin Baxter has an interesting program (End of the Age) on Bible prophecy on the Christian programming tv channels during the week; he also has changed his thinking on this rapture timing. Not that it matters; but for sure, counting on things to go as we plan isn’t advisable. Of course, we are to pray to “escape all these things that must soon come to pass”, but that may possibly just mean to be held up through whatever comes.


35 posted on 01/14/2013 2:48:47 AM PST by Twinkie (The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof; the world and they that dwell therein. Ps. 24:1)
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To: hoagy62

You can do it. What is this life in the context of eternity?
Read the history of the martyrs of the church.


36 posted on 01/14/2013 2:49:35 AM PST by ImaGraftedBranch (...By reading this, you've collapsed my wave function. Thanks.)
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To: madison10

The state of our souls is what’s important, not when we leave this planet.


37 posted on 01/14/2013 2:57:51 AM PST by skr (May God confound the enemy)
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To: madison10

You’re not reading anything wrong. That’s exactly what scripture teaches. The symbolism of the trumpets ties in with one of the holy days of the Christ, the Feast of Trumpets (Leviticus 23). Some Christians indeed go through the tribulation. There are indications however that others are protected by God on earth and aren’t affected much by it. Can’t think of the verses right now and am trying to get to work!


38 posted on 01/14/2013 3:08:39 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: madison10

If it could be known for certain, it would have already been settled.
The key is to spiritually prepare yourself to go through it, persevering. If a rapture happens before the worst of it, it’s a bonus.

I always wondered how there could be a great falling away, as Christ spoke of. I wonder if it is those that, planning on being rescued, lose faith when this supposed per-trib rapture doesn’t happen, and they have not understood the need to persevere...

Prepare yourselves spiritually. Read Ephesians to remind yourselves what this battle really is, and read the history of the martyrs that died, often horrendously, persevering in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If Christ didn’t save those countless from the worst, then we should be looking at their examples and gird ourselves with the armor of God so that we can stand.


39 posted on 01/14/2013 3:09:02 AM PST by ImaGraftedBranch (...By reading this, you've collapsed my wave function. Thanks.)
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To: ImaGraftedBranch
I always wondered how there could be a great falling away, as Christ spoke of.

I believe we are living in that time right now...apostasy everywhere.

40 posted on 01/14/2013 3:19:42 AM PST by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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To: madison10

The perseverance encouraged is prior to the Rapture for those believers enduring worldly consequences of rejecting the mark of the beast. Later verses identify those believers who take the mark, also are sent to the Lake of Fire along with unbelievers.


41 posted on 01/14/2013 3:20:48 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: madison10
You are a bit late. The tribulation already happened. Don't sweat it though. We're still here, thank God.

I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 10:10

42 posted on 01/14/2013 3:26:42 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: madison10

You have come to the correct conclusion. The only Rapture is the one which will occur when Christ returns in judgment, an event known as the parousia.


43 posted on 01/14/2013 3:38:40 AM PST by circlecity
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To: madison10

no

Paul never taught the erarly church to expect tribulation, to store food, to move to a safe spot

h taught the early church to expect Jesus to return at any moment

any theology that denies the rapture is denying the Bible

The best and most detailed book on this is
maranatha! our lord come
by Renald Showers
it might be online somewhere free, please read it


44 posted on 01/14/2013 3:40:53 AM PST by RaceBannon (When Chuck Norris goes to bed, he checks under it for Clint Eastwood!)
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To: ScottfromNJ
There will be saints after the rapture, those who turn to Christ later, those who were not taken the first time.

Yes. But not two second comings, as you indicate. It is composed of two stages of His Second Coming. When The God makes changes of dispensations, of covenants, of judgments, He generally does it in stages. The pattern:

o Stage I. Private -- A preliminary disclosure to a select group of intimates; announced privately to His faithful ones, by a messenger, by Himself, by an angel, or by a prophet.

o Stage II. Public -- A manifestation seen by all, affecting all, preceded by protection or removal of His faithful from the calamitous event to follow.

This pattern can be seen with Lot vs Gomorrah, Moses vs Pharaoh/Egypt, Daniel vs overthrow of Babylon, etc.

Regarding The First Coming (parousia) of The Messiah/Christ/Anointed One:

Stage I. Private -- Announcements privately to Zecharias, Miriam, Elizabeth, Joseph, the shepherds, Simeon, Anna; and kept close by them in His formative years.

Stage II. Public ministry -- Announcements for all to see; publicly made by John Baptizer the prophet, as well as by The God Himself at His baptism; seen publicly by all, especially His death on the cross.

See? well, His second coming is expected thus by His saints, informed by the inspired Scripture:

Stage I. Private -- the catching up (harpadzo, snatching away)into the heavens of all the NT saints in their new bodies; announced by the voice of the archangel; for the purpose of judgment of the works of regenerated believers, the Heavenly Marriage and banquet, and instruction in governing the earth after their accompaniment in the second phase of His return.

While this is going on, left-behind unregenerated believer-religionists will have to suffer the vicissitudes of the tribulation, some perhaps being converted, many losing physical life. But many shall be saved to inhabit the earthly Kingdom of The Christ when established.

Stage II Public -- His return to the earth at Petra; from whence He shall march forward to the Mount of Olives, bloodily vanquishing the Adversary and human opponents by himself (as He by Himself purged our sins) observed by His onlooking chaste noncombatant Bride; then rejoined by His Church on earth as His foot touches Olivet for the Valorous Procession and installation of His Regent David to rule the earth from Zion.

His Grace-Age living saints will not have to suffer agony and death in the great corruptive tribulation any more than Noah and his family did in the Flood, nor Lot and his daughters in the firestorm destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

At least, this is the way I have seen it in the grand view of God's workings.

Two stages, private, then public -- capisce?

===========

Finally, the gospels say Jesus Christ returns and conquers the earth where people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, separating the sheep from the goats. If this is the same event as the rapture there would be no sheep left since they’ve already been taken to the air.

This tract announced in Matthew 25:31+ is the judgment of nations immediately upon the institution of His earthly thousand-year reign, not the Great White Throne judgment of resurrected unbelieving individuals at the end of that reigning period.

Respectfully --

45 posted on 01/14/2013 3:46:23 AM PST by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul. Ps 66:16)
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To: imardmd1

The King of Kings will do the final war with the help of the angels and the male saints, those from Heaven and with those on earth.


46 posted on 01/14/2013 3:59:49 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: madison10

congratulations... you are now a catholic... welcome brother


47 posted on 01/14/2013 4:13:10 AM PST by joe fonebone (The clueless... they walk among us, and they vote...)
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To: DouglasKC

Lands of Goshen....areas protected by God the same way the Hebrews were when the Plagues fell on Egypt proper.(You just have to get to them)


48 posted on 01/14/2013 4:17:23 AM PST by mdmathis6 ("Barry" Xmas to all and have a rapaciously taxable New Year!)
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To: imardmd1
good post imardmd1

Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. (Malachi 3:16

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints (Jude 14)

49 posted on 01/14/2013 4:22:39 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: madison10

While you may think every believer must some how be purified by the Tribulation, Christ said we would not ever see God’s wrath. The Trib is His wrath. Thus, we will not see the Trib wrath. Why all you folks seem to think we must be purified is beyond me. God’s grace. His forgiveness of our sins. His saving us. Would you have a Bride and beat the heck out of her for seven years, then take her home and ask her to marry you? That is what going through the Trib would be. Christ taking His bride and letting her be beat up for 7 years. I do not see that happening. We have been forgiven when we BELIEVED. Why do we have to PROVE it by getting through the Trib? There is nothing in scripture that says that. Paul makes it clear. I believe what Paul wrote.


50 posted on 01/14/2013 4:25:15 AM PST by RetiredArmy (1 Cor 15: 50-54 & 1 Thess 4: 13-17. That about covers it.)
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