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Polish Court Rejects Call to Remove Crucifix From Parliament
Reuters ^ | 1/15/13 | Chris Borowski and Pawel Sobczak

Posted on 01/17/2013 6:39:14 AM PST by marshmallow

(Reuters) - A Polish court has rejected a motion calling for the removal of a crucifix from parliament's debating chamber in a case pitting Poland's traditional Catholicism against a younger generation who think the church is too strong.

Warsaw's district court late on Monday argued that since the cross had not been met with any objections in the past it was accepted by most Poles and did not violate their rights.

The crucifix was placed in the chamber one night by two conservative politicians in 1997.

The court also chastised the anti-clerical Palikot's Movement party led by former vodka tycoon Janusz Palikot which brought the court case, accusing it of calling for tolerance yet failing to show acceptance of religious symbols.

The party has tapped Poland's growing secularization to become the country's third-largest political force. It said it would appeal the decision.

"The court failed to show objectivity in its decision," said Andrzej Rozenek, one of the party's parliamentary deputies.

(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 01/17/2013 6:39:21 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

Obviously descriminating against vampires is a good thing in Poland. The UN should get involved.


2 posted on 01/17/2013 6:47:28 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: marshmallow

Good for them! There’s no reasonable argument for removing it. If the younger generation is complaining just tell them to chalk it up to being a “historical” item.


3 posted on 01/17/2013 6:48:21 AM PST by rfreedom4u (I have a copy of the Constitution! And I'm not afraid to use it!)
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To: marshmallow

This is a bit troubling.

If Poland goes “secular,” IMO it’s over; Antichrist wins.


4 posted on 01/17/2013 7:11:56 AM PST by eCSMaster (Palin was correct!)
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To: marshmallow

In all seriousness...

IMO, I can understand why they want to remove it. The Catholic cross, IMO, is quite gross.

A cross on the wall is a religious symbol. A dead body on the wall is disturbing. And I wouldn’t want to have to stare at that every day either.

So if some there are not Catholic I can understand why they want it removed. They should compromise and switch it with just a regular cross.

That way, to the Catholic and Protestants it would be a religious symbol and to the non-believer it’s just a decoration and everyone’s happy.


5 posted on 01/17/2013 7:12:13 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach
The cricifix helps us to unite our earthly sufferings with the sufferings of Christ. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Being Catholic: Sacred Things, Crucifixes and Crosses

6 posted on 01/17/2013 7:17:08 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
The cricifix helps us to unite our earthly sufferings with the sufferings of Christ. Nothing wrong with that at all.

It's great that you have that belief and can make that connection.

But to the rest of us, its something quite different.

I've seen some nice statues of an alive Jesus and there are tons of paintings. Why not one of those or just a plain cross...?

I think it has to do more with a power struggle and a statement than the need for a cross. The crucifixion cross is distictly Catholic. In a religiously charged area it would be seen as branding the organization or building as "Catholic" and the non-Catholics would seriously object.
7 posted on 01/17/2013 7:49:42 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach; Salvation
Is this gross?

this is not Spanish/Iberian style which is bloody

Note also that the article is not complete -- they want to remove a cross, even a basic, simple cross.

this guy Palikot is basically a demagogue like Obama -- one of his posters was "0% unemployment today" -- and has led movements against capitalism

8 posted on 01/18/2013 6:01:18 AM PST by Cronos (Middle English prest, priest, Old English pruost, Late Latin presbyter, Latin presbuteros)
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To: MeOnTheBeach; Salvation
Also "A dead body on the wall is disturbing. And I wouldn’t want to have to stare at that every day either." -- it should be disturbing. The idea is not to have just a "la la happy, happy" but also note the seriousness of the parliamentary session

It's also been key in recent debates striking down moves to liberalize abortion

9 posted on 01/18/2013 6:02:55 AM PST by Cronos (Middle English prest, priest, Old English pruost, Late Latin presbyter, Latin presbuteros)
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To: MeOnTheBeach; Salvation
The crucifixion cross is distinctly Catholic. In a religiously charged area it would be seen as branding the organization or building as "Catholic" and the non-Catholics would seriously object.

Sorry, MeontheBeach, but you are talking through your hat. I live here in Poland, in Warsaw, -- for the past two years, so I can tell you this from my experience -- there are few to no non-Catholic Christians in Poland

The next largest Christian group is the Orthodox and they too have the image of the dead Christ on the crucifix -- of course this is an icon, not a 3d image

The next largest non-Catholic Christian denomination are the Lutherans (4000 people in all of Poland) and they have crucifixes too like this one

Besides these Christian groups the next group are the Jehovah's Witnesses - yup, no Crucifixes there, but they are a few thousand at the most

So, to sum up -- the non-Catholic groups are Lutherans and Orthodox mainly, both of whom have crucifixes with a dead body of Christ on them

There is no enthusiasm for Pentecostalism or Baptists or other Evangelicals. The Calvinists suffer from bad history (members of that group basically betrayed the country in the 1600's to the Swedes unlike the Lutherans who remained true to the country).

The only people objecting to the cross are anti-Christians. These are not really atheists, more hedonists

I've only met one ex-atheist in Poland, and that guy is now a devout Catholic working full-time to prevent abortion "liberalization".

10 posted on 01/18/2013 6:15:18 AM PST by Cronos (Middle English prest, priest, Old English pruost, Late Latin presbyter, Latin presbuteros)
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To: Cronos
Is this gross?

To me, yes. I see it as a dead body hanging on an old Roman execution device. And that it would be in my face every time I went through that door...

I'm not being melodramatic, it is what it is. I look at the picture objectively and ask myself how does it makes me feel when I look at it. Then I try to put myself in the room. What if I had to experience that feeling every day...

I wouldn't expect a Catholic to sympathize with my point of view as this style of cross is something they relate to.

Palikot probably does have an agenda, these types always do. I'm just speaking for myself.
11 posted on 01/18/2013 6:38:26 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: Cronos
Also "A dead body on the wall is disturbing. And I wouldn’t want to have to stare at that every day either." -- it should be disturbing. The idea is not to have just a "la la happy, happy" but also note the seriousness of the parliamentary session

It's also been key in recent debates striking down moves to liberalize abortion


Then it probably serves as a good reminder of their convictions.
12 posted on 01/18/2013 6:43:04 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: Cronos
The only people objecting to the cross are anti-Christians. These are not really atheists, more hedonists

ahh ok. Well I was just giving my opinion from the information that I had. I still like the painting of Jesus you posted better than the crucifix. :-)
13 posted on 01/18/2013 6:59:38 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach; Salvation
Also, to your point
So if some there are not Catholic I can understand why they want it removed. They should compromise and switch it with just a regular cross.
That way, to the Catholic and Protestants it would be a religious symbol and to the non-believer it’s just a decoration and everyone’s happy.

Poland is not like the US or the UK. There are next to no "Protestants" here -- it's just not known. People are Catholic or Eastern Catholic or Orthodox or some are Lutheran

I lived near the Lutheran Church above (its close to Plac Piłsudski on plac Małachoswkiego)

the interior of the Church, with a crucifix, Mass etc. is pretty darn similar to a Catholic one.

There is no Catholic - "Protestant" conflict like in the US -- the Lutherans are well respected and the Orthodox are too (as long as they are not pro-Russian!, which none of the present-day Polish Orthodox are -- to give you a brief reason, Poland with Lithuania once included Belarus and Western Ukraine -- together that is Ruthenia. These people were Orthodox. Until 1600s this didn't cause any problems. The Catholics were 60% of the population, but the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth gave freedom of religion, so there was no Protestant-Catholic war like in Germany. Calvinists, Lutherans even Unitarians (Polish Brethren) could freely practise and preach. The counter-reformation was peaceful. There were a few converted back, but the Protestant movement was not successful largely as it was perceived as a German movement or Czech movement. But the religions lived pretty well together. Then in the 1500s, Moscow portrayed itself as the protector of the Orthodox and said that it had a divine mission to gather the Orthodox. This caused a problem because of the Ruthenians. Most didn't want to join Moscowy as they preferred the democracy of the P-L commonwealth. But Muscowy pressed on and got stronger. Then, in the 1600s the Swedes invaded and devastated the country. They were aided by the Calvinists, which forever condemned Calvinism as anti-national) and at the same time Muscowy invaded. Over the next 100 years Russia grabbed large parts of Poland and forcibly Russified many peoples.

For most Lutherans in Poland, they have crucifixes themsevles so the Cross is not a piece of shame for them

Finally, note that the compromise you ask for is with some small minority of anti-religious folks, not "Protestants". It's like a compromise to allow gay marriage

14 posted on 01/18/2013 7:13:05 AM PST by Cronos (Middle English prest, priest, Old English pruost, Late Latin presbyter, Latin presbuteros)
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To: Cronos
Poland is not like the US or the UK...

Finally, note that the compromise you ask for is with some small minority of anti-religious folks, not "Protestants"


Great post. Thank you for all the insight.
15 posted on 01/18/2013 7:36:52 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: Cronos


Do you have any more pictures of this church? The interior seems very beautiful.
16 posted on 01/18/2013 7:40:30 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach
Yet what is in the first picture is an actual cross with the image of Christ painted on it -- an Eastern Icon.

A replacement for the crucifix with an icon is religiously ok --

The above is the main Catholic Cathedral in London -- the Westminister Cathedral

Or even a plain crucifix is ok -- this is the parish where I got married in, it's in Warsaw again

But what is at play here is more political -- the ones asking for the crucifix to go don't want even the plain cross...

17 posted on 01/18/2013 7:55:37 AM PST by Cronos (Middle English prest, priest, Old English pruost, Late Latin presbyter, Latin presbuteros)
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To: MeOnTheBeach

no worries — we too often look at things from the prism of where we are at<


18 posted on 01/18/2013 8:05:54 AM PST by Cronos (Middle English prest, priest, Old English pruost, Late Latin presbyter, Latin presbuteros)
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To: MeOnTheBeach
yes. This is Kościół Święty Trójcy (Church of the Holy Trinity), but is more popularly known as Kościół Ewangelico-Augsburgu (the Church of the Evangelical-Augsburgans)

In Central and Eastern Europe Evangelical means Calvinists and lutherans -- Lutherans being Evangelical-Augusburg and Calvinists being Evangelical-Reformed

Oh, and I erred -- there is also a tiny community of Methodists in Poland, only in Warsaw -- they have a church on the second floor of an apartment block. They are about a few hundred


19 posted on 01/18/2013 8:12:01 AM PST by Cronos (Middle English prest, priest, Old English pruost, Late Latin presbyter, Latin presbuteros)
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To: Cronos
This is Kościół Święty Trójcy

Thank you for posting more pictures. The church really is a beautiful piece of art.

Was this built after the war? Or did it survive the Germans and the Russians?
20 posted on 01/18/2013 10:25:22 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach
No, actually it dates from the last King of Poland -- in 1777. Says a lot about the religious tolerance that this very Catholic King let a Lutheran Church be built that was bigger than the Catholic Churches around :)

It was destroyed by the Germans in 1939 - the German Lutheran community in Warsaw (as in Łódż) were mostly anti-Nazi.

It was recently rebuilt (like most of Warsaw -- fact aside, did you know that over 70% of Warsaw was reduced to rubble by the Germans in 1944? And the ghetto area was burnt to the ground. The pictures you can see is just a big junkyard, no buildings standing. They rebuilt the entire thing over 15 years.)

21 posted on 01/20/2013 11:11:37 AM PST by Cronos (Middle English prest, priest, Old English pruost, Late Latin presbyter, Latin presbuteros)
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