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CELIBACY AND THE PRIESTHOOD - 30 Questions and Answers
zna ^ | January 25, 2013 | John Flynn, LC

Posted on 01/27/2013 1:46:13 PM PST by NYer

ROME, January 25, 2013 (Zenit.org).

Why can’t priests marry? It’s a question people often ask and the requirement of celibacy has also been blamed as one of the causes of sexual abuse by priests.

A recently published translation of an Italian book addresses the topic in a question and answer format, “Married Priests? Thirty Crucial Questions about Celibacy” (Ignatius Press). It is edited by Arturo Cattaneo, with contributions from a wide variety of scholars.

We are faced with a great educational challenge in explaining the Church’s teaching on priestly celibacy, admitted Cardinal Mauro Piacenza, prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy.

He likened celibacy to marriage. "The underlying logic of priestly celibacy is the same one we encounter in Christian matrimony: the total gift of everything forever in love."

From the historical aspect the book noted that Christ chose celibacy for himself even though among the Jews this state of life was seen as a humiliation. He did not generate children physically but loved his disciples as brethren and shared a common life with them.

Jesus' way of communicating life was not through physical generation but spiritual. Therefore the celibacy of those who follow Jesus in the priesthood must be understood in the perspective of this spiritual transmission of eternal life.

One of the questions deals with the affirmation that celibacy did not become obligatory until the Middle Ages. For a start, the explanation noted, there is considerable Biblical evidence, both in the Gospels and the letters of St Paul, of support for celibacy as a sign of witness.

While it is true that during the early centuries married men were ordained, after their ordination they were expected to practice continence and those who were single at ordination or those widowed after ordination were not permitted to marry once they were priests.

All deacons, priests and bishops, the explanation continued, had to refrain from sexual activity from the day of ordination. "Nowhere in the Church can it be proved that a married cleric legitimately begat children after his ordination."

Over time the Church realized that continence for married clerics was problematic regarding the sacramentality of marriage and so during the Middle Ages this led to the decision of requiring priests to be single.

Vocations

Why not allow married priests in order to attract more vocations? This, the book observed, is one of the most frequent arguments regarding celibacy. There is no evidence, however, "that requiring less of candidates to the priesthood leads to increased numbers of them," the answer replied.

"Experience proves the contrary instead: vocations to the priesthood flourish and multiply when the radical gospel message is welcomed consistently and unapologetically."

The requirement of celibacy is not a dogma, another section of the book admitted, but this does not mean it is a merely disciplinary measure. Celibacy means that the priest should be similar to Christ and live as he did.

Jesus regarded himself as the “Bridegroom” of the whole community of believers. The explanation referred to Paul’s letter to the Ephesians (5:21-33) that uses the image of marriage for the union between Christ and the Church.

Is not celibacy unnatural and the cause of crises among priests? In the answer to this question the author, in this case Manfred Lütz, a doctor of medicine in psychiatry, explained that the question is based on an erroneous premise. What about all the people who are unmarried – are they all unnatural?

The celibate life only becomes unnatural when being single turns into isolated selfishness or narcissism, Lütz continued.

Spiritual life

From his experience as a therapist Lütz said that crises among clergy do not come from celibacy, but rather from the drying up of the spiritual life.

A subsequent question also dealt with this theme of psychological equilibrium. It was answered by André-Marie Jerumanis, a priest and physician.

Celibacy, he explained, is not harmful to equilibrium or maturity if we take into account that it is a free choice of a psychologically mature person.

A human being is not just a mere bundle of instincts. Instead, as a person we have an intellect, a will and free choice, which makes possible self-control.

"The more humanly and spiritually mature a person is, the more perfectly he will practice continence at the psychological level, not as frustration but as perfect freedom exercised in self-control and in complete availability to his personal mission," Jerumanis explained.

In another question Jerumanis dealt with the accusation that celibacy is a causal factor in sexual abuse. It would be rash to come to this conclusion, he affirmed, just as it would be rash to conclude that marital crises are due to the requirement that marriage be indissoluble.

Another contributor noted that no one would blame the institution of marriage as being responsible for a parent sexually abusing their child. He also observed that sexual abuse is just as prevalent in churches that have married clergy and that by far the largest number of cases of sexual abuse occurs in the immediate family.

These explanations and the other questions and answers make this book a valuable resource at a time of continued debate over celibacy.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: celibacy
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1 posted on 01/27/2013 1:46:19 PM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...
Since the Eastern Catholic Church allows for married priests, I have posted the following before but it is worth repeating. This is from a Maronite Catholic Cardinal, who supports the celibate priesthood.

Oct 15, 2005
Speaking to the 11th General Synod Fathers, gathered for their eighth meeting this morning at the Vatican, Cardinal Nasrallah Pierre Sfeir, who is Patriarch of Antioch of the Maronites in Lebanon--a Catholic rite which allows for married priests--addressed the issue, which has been brought up by many, particularly in light of the U.S. sex abuse scandal, of commonly permitting married priests in the Roman rite.

Vatican City, Oct. 07, 2005 (CNA) - The Cardinal defended the practice of the celibate priesthood and discussed the beauty of the tradition, calling it the "most precious jewel in the treasury of the Catholic Church."

While pointing out that "the Maronite Church admits married priests" and that "half of our diocesan priests are married", the Cardinal Patriarch said that "it must be recognized that if admitting married men resolves one problem, it creates others just as serious."

"A married priest", he said, "has the duty to look after his wife and family, ensuring his children receive a good education and overseeing their entry into society. ... Another difficulty facing a married priest arises if he does not enjoy a good relationship with his parishioners; his bishop cannot transfer him because of the difficulty of transferring his whole family.

He noted that "married priests have perpetuated the faith among people whose difficult lives they shared, and without them this faith would no longer exist."

"On the other hand," he said, "celibacy is the most precious jewel in the treasury of the Catholic Church,"

Lamenting a culture which is all but outright opposed to purity, the Cardinal asked: "How can [celibacy] be conserved in an atmosphere laden with eroticism? Newspapers, Internet, billboards, shows, everything appears shameless and constantly offends the virtue of chastity."

Suggesting that there are no easy solutions to the problem of priest shortages in the Church--an oft brought up point during the Synod--he noted that, "Of course a priest, once ordained, can no longer get married. Sending priests to countries where they are lacking, taking them from a country that has many, is not the ideal solution if one bears in mind the question of tradition, customs and mentality. The problem remains."

Maronite Rite Cardinal defends, praises celibate priesthood

Note as well that the Maronite Church only sends celibate priests to serve outside of Lebanon.

2 posted on 01/27/2013 1:50:09 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer; RIghtwardHo; Reaganite Republican; Clintons Are White Trash; HerrBlucher; mgist; raptor22; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

3 posted on 01/27/2013 1:52:20 PM PST by narses
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To: NYer
Marriage and celibacy are not the same issue of course.

requirement of celibacy has also been blamed as one of the causes of sexual abuse by priests.

Homo-pedo priests are homo pedo's whether or not they can get married, unless those doing the blaming think they should be allowed to marry underage boys??

4 posted on 01/27/2013 1:58:28 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: NYer
CELIBACY AND THE PRIESTHOOD - 30 Questions and Answers
Call Him 'The God Father': Husband and Dad Will Become Catholic Priest -- and Take Vow of Celibacy
Pope Denounces Dissident Priests on Celibacy

Study: Homosexuality, celibacy didn't cause abuse (Catholic Church)
Celibacy is Cry to The Secularized World that God is Present, States Cardinal
Cardinal Kasper: I Was Never Against Priestly Celibacy [Catholic Caucus]
Cardinal Lehman Attacks Cardinal Brandmüller's Letter in Defense of Celibacy
Cardinal Piacenza's Address to Priestly Celibacy Congress
As a Young Priest Benedict XVI ‘Called For The Church to Investigate Priestly Celibacy’
A Catholic Bishop Looks Back Gratefully on 87 Years of Celibacy
Pope's Q-and-A at End of Priestly Year (Pt 3) "Celibacy...Is a Great Sign of Faith" Catholic Caucus]
Pope rethinks, clarifies and reinforces celibacy, asserts Vatican analyst
The Pope "Rethinks" Clerical Celibacy. In Order to Reinforce It

Priestly Meeting Shows "Beauty" of Celibacy
Celibacy is Nonsense...
Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven. The Argument over Celibacy
Does Celibacy Contribute to Clerical Sex Abuse?
A “Celibacy Problem”? Catholic-Bashing, NAMBLA and the Dalai Lama
Vatican: DON'T blame it on celibacy
Is Priestly Celibacy Psychologically Dangerous? (Catholic Caucus)
No Greater Love: Speakers Say Celibacy Mirrors Jesus' Love For All
5 Arguments for Priestly Celibacy
5 Arguments Against Priestly Celibacy and How to Refute Them

The Charism of Celibacy and Concupiscence
Radio Replies First Volume - Celibacy
Provision for Anglicans published, celibacy question answered
Vatican Holds Line on Celibacy for Anglican Rebels [Apostolic Constitution published today]
Celibacy and the Priesthood
Cardinal Levada: no “celibacy issue” in reception of Anglicans into Catholic Church
Celibacy Issue Holds Up Apostolic Constitution
The Jewel of Celibacy
TENDENCY FOR PRIESTS IS TOWARD CELIBACY, SAYS EGYPTIAN BISHOP
Bad Examples Do Not Invalidate The Value of Priestly Celibacy, Says Bishop

Married [converts] priests inspire flock Why Can't (Roman) Catholic Priests Get Married?
Priestly Celibacy: Yes, it is Apostolic [Ecumenical]
Roman Catholic Priests the Case For:
Married man considers turn as Catholic priest
Angelo Roncalli (Pope John XXIII) and Priestly Celibacy
Ukrainian cardinal says married men not answer to vocations crisis
The Nature of Priestly Ordination: Theological Background and Some Present Concerns
Married man considers turn as Catholic priest
Why Celibacy? [Catholic Caucus]

Messori: Married priests no remedy for “vocations crisis”
Married Priests Back Celibacy (Part 1 of 2)
Should Catholic priests have the right to marry?
On Priests, Marriage and the Sacraments
Vatican Said (Again!) Not Revising Celibacy Rule
Pope, Curia Aides Reaffirm Value of Priestly Celibacy (detailed Vatican response)
Vatican Reaffirms Celibacy for Priests
The Gift: A Married Priest Looks at Celiba[cy]
Jesuit defends priestly celibacy (a lengthy but worthy read)
Ex-Lutheran bishop found Catholic rock: Joseph Jacobson to be ordained Catholic priest by Christmas

New, stricter Priestly Formation Program issued for U.S. Catholic seminaries
Long Journey to Rome (Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for Catholic Church)
That sneaky desperate Catholic Church is at it again
Following the Signs (to a priestly vocation)
Another One Takes the Plunge [swims the Tiber]
Getting It Right:The Foundation of Friendship (What can a celibate priest really teach us about love
Married, ex-Episcopalian ordained a Catholic priest in California
The biblical foundation of priestly celibacy
Why Not Married Priests? The Case for Clerical Celibacy
(Catholic) Church makes a clear distinction between chastity and celibacy, says Priest

5 Arguments Against Priestly Celibacy and How to Refute Them
Married Priests Aren’t the Answer (a seminarian states his view)
Synod Affirms Priestly Celibacy
Vatican synod rules out married priests (for Latin Church)
Priest shortage stems from crisis of faith, ignorance of the infinite, not celibacy, say Bishops [at Synod]
Cardinal Pell: Ending Celibacy Rule Would Be a Blunder
Patriarch of Venice deemphasizes ordination of married men to the priesthood
Ordination of married men is raised at Vatican synod
Defending Chastity in the Priesthood
ROMAN CATHOLIC DIOCESE OF SCRANTON TO RECEIVE FIRST ECUSA PRIEST

The Catholic Church - East-West Difference Over Priestly Celibacy
Spain (R) Catholic Church ordains first married priest
Spain gets first married priest
From Anglican to married Catholic priest
Vatican Prepares Draft Directives Against Admitting Gays as Priests
More (Priestly) Celibacy, Not Less
An Unneeded Headache (Vatican document on [NOT] admitting homosexual to the priesthood)
Fathers, Husbands and Rebels: Married Priests
Cardinal says Priests will marry
Yes, Gay Men Should Be Ordained

A small, sturdy band of 'John Paul priests'(JPII legacy of conservative priests)
40% of Scots priests want end to celibacy
Is it time to ordain married men to the Catholic priesthood?
Saying Yes to God: a Look into Vocations
New Vatican Document to Eliminate 1961 Papal Ban on Ordaining Homosexuals
Saying Yes to God: a Look into Vocations
Married Priests? The English Experience
Alternative Priests´ Council Hits Back on Mandatory Celibacy
Catholic priests urge Church to reconsider celibacy rules
Catholic priests demand the right to marry

New Vatican Document on Homosexuality and the Priesthood Coming Before Fall 2005
Why A Married Priesthood Won't Remedy the Priest Shortage
5 Arguments Against (Catholic) Priestly Celibacy and How to Refute Them
Fr. Shannon Collins Discusses Celibacy
For Priests, Celibacy Is Not the Problem
John Paul II Hails "Inestimable Value" of Priestly Celibacy
The (Catholic) Church Has Always Prospered When Celibacy Is Honored
Call To Action: Dump Celibacy
Celibacy Defended by EWTN's Fr. Levis
Celibacy Will Save the Priesthood

Celibacy is gift cherished by church
Archbishop Dolan:"We Need to Be Renewing Our Pledge to Celibacy, Not Questioning It"
The gift of Priestly celibacy as a sign of the charity of Christ, by Mother Teresa of Calcutta
A response to Fr. Joseph Wilson's defense of mandatory celibacy
Bishop Attacks Move to End Celibacy
Vatican Says Celibacy Rule Nonnegotiable
God’s call to celibacy for the sake of His Kingdom - by Card. George
Tracing the Glorious Origins of Celibacy
Celibacy
Priestly Celibacy Reflects Who - and Whose - We Are[Father George W.Rutler]

How to Refute Arguments Against Priestly Celibacy
Priestly Celibacy And Its Roots In Christ
The celibate superhero
Don't end celibacy for priests
Giving Thanks for the Good Shepherds ( A Defense of Priestly Celibacy)
Pope: Priests Must Stay Celibate
Celibacy s history of power and money
Celibacy of the priesthood is a church strength, not a liability
Catholic Scandals: A Crisis for Celibacy?
Has the Time Come to Consider Making Celibacy Truly Optional In the Western Church?

5 posted on 01/27/2013 2:06:14 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

**”On the other hand,” he said, “celibacy is the most precious jewel in the treasury of the Catholic Church,”**

And true priest guard it carefully.


6 posted on 01/27/2013 2:07:57 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

**”On the other hand,” he said, “celibacy is the most precious jewel in the treasury of the Catholic Church,”**

And true priests guard it carefully.


7 posted on 01/27/2013 2:08:03 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer
It's not surprising that an Eastern Cardinal would support a celibate clergy, since Bishops in Eastern Churches are celibate.

"How can [celibacy] be conserved in an atmosphere laden with eroticism? Newspapers, Internet, billboards, shows, everything appears shameless and constantly offends the virtue of chastity."

Chastity is not the same thing as celibacy, and the author's parenthetical insertion is wrong. It should say "How can [chastity] be conserved ..., etc."

The popular culture is as much an offense to continent singles and faithfully married couples [both groups of whom are also chaste] as it is to the celibate priesthood. In fact, I would say it is far more of an offense to continent singles than any other group. We haven't yet reached the point where faithful partners are ridiculed for observing their vows, but chaste single people are viciously deprecated.

Paul's recommendation not to marry is not based on an argument about "purity" [more properly chastity] because to do so would have suggested that sacramental marriage was unchaste, but rather, about the priorities a married man necessarily has versus an unmarried one.

8 posted on 01/27/2013 2:16:54 PM PST by FredZarguna (PA:The right of citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned)
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To: NYer

IF the first Pope was Peter (a Jewish man) that was married..

Celibacy is a real stretch.. Peter was the ONLY Pope that knew and talked to Jesus.. (also a Jew)..
That is..... if Peter was a Pope at all..


9 posted on 01/27/2013 2:17:42 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: NYer

A culture that doesn’t value virginity/celibacy likely also doesn’t properly value marriage and parenthood. Any right use of our sexual faculties is going to require self-sacrifice, in one form or another, not self-serving.


10 posted on 01/27/2013 2:18:21 PM PST by Tax-chick (Make sure you notice when I'm being subtly ironic!)
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To: hosepipe
IF the first Pope was Peter (a Jewish man) that was married..

We know from Scripture that Peter was married ... but that is all we know. We don't know if his wife was alive or dead. Since he spent most of his time on the road with Christ, one could possibly construe that he was a widower. Ultimately, however, Peter was the first pope. His wife, if she was still alive, was not at his side, when he was crucified upside down in the Coliseum.

11 posted on 01/27/2013 2:30:08 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: GeronL

“’Homo-pedo priests are homo pedo’s whether or not they can get married, unless those doing the blaming think they should be allowed to marry underage boys??”

Shhhhh! Don’t give the psycholeft any ideas.

I’m a Protestant, but I’ll concede to our Roman Catholic friends the point that if a priest is sexually abusing children he is by very definition unchaste and uncelibate, thereby violating his ordination vows.


12 posted on 01/27/2013 3:01:11 PM PST by ReformationFan
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To: ReformationFan

Ain’t that the truth.

Catholics need to disown those who claim to be one but disagree with the church on everything. All denominations should/


13 posted on 01/27/2013 3:08:50 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: NYer

Ultimately, however, Peter was the first pope.


I salute your faith... takes faith to believe many things..

Since Jesus came to make all religion and religions obsolete I doubt Peter started one..
I have faith that is true..


14 posted on 01/27/2013 3:17:03 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
Since Jesus came to make all religion and religions obsolete I doubt Peter started one..

He didn't. He was an ignorant fisherman. The last thing he ever wanted was to be in charge of the church founded by Jesus Christ. It was not his choice; it was God's. Matthew 16:16-17

15 posted on 01/27/2013 3:29:14 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: hosepipe
Since Jesus came to make all religion and religions obsolete I doubt Peter started one..

But of course Peter did not start one, Jesus Himself did. He anointed Peter as it's first leader, it's rock on which to build.

Matthew 16:18
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

16 posted on 01/27/2013 3:30:26 PM PST by mc5cents
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To: hosepipe

See http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2982428/posts?page=20#20 on the accompanying thread.


17 posted on 01/27/2013 3:33:50 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: NYer; hosepipe; ReformationFan; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; CynicalBear; ...
We know from Scripture that Peter was married ... but that is all we know. We don't know if his wife was alive or dead. Since he spent most of his time on the road with Christ, one could possibly construe that he was a widower.

We know from Scripture that it is not simply the gospels, (Mt. 8:14) which it seems you are affirming Peter being married from, and I think his wife that he was leading a dead wife around on his ministry was quite alive.

"Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? " (1 Corinthians 9:5)

His wife, if she was still alive, was not at his side, when he was crucified upside down in the Coliseum.

As tradition has it, and would apply to all the other married apostles.

18 posted on 01/27/2013 3:44:44 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: NYer; hosepipe; ReformationFan; GeronL; Tax-chick; FredZarguna; Salvation; narses
You need to reread the Scriptures, because Paul writes that all the apostles except himself were married.
"Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles,, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?" 1 Cor. 9:5
Paul did not say they were widowers, he said they were married with wives that accompanied them on their journeys. I love it when those defending catholic teachings try to do so when they themselves obviously do not read the Bible. Any high school bible student would know this, but we are to believe that the Catholic church is above reproach in its teachings. Even when they are proven to be wrong tine and time again.

In my opinion, the overall view of Catholicism toward sexuality is thoroughly unbiblical and prudish. Just look at the sexual improprieties among the priesthood which are now becoming known. Then we can understand the seriousness of the problem of practicing this unbiblical teaching.

When men pervert biblical teaching, it always results in serious consequences in real life. Practices of asceticism, such as monasticism and celibacy of the clergy neither promote spiritual growth nor helpful in avoiding sin, as Paul told the Colossians.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," 22 which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. (Col. 2:20-23)
That being said, I agree with Paul when he wrote to the Corinthians that it is be best if a man or woman can remain celibate, but he did not require it to be. Paul believed, to which I concur, that it is difficult to have 100% devotion to God when you are torn by your devotion to a spouse. However few, and I mean very very few, can remain celibate without being tempted in this world, especially in today's sex charged atmosphere. Paul wrote this in 1 Cor 7:8-9,
But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion
Sadly the Catholic church has taken this passage and made a mockery of what Paul was teaching the Corinthians. My Catholic friends need to spend more time in the word, and less time defending religious traditions that only makes the Word of God of no effect, as Jesus Himself told the Pharisees When he rebuked them in Mark chapter 7.
19 posted on 01/27/2013 4:02:09 PM PST by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike
I did not defend catholic teaching. They should be able to make their own rules though.

Just look at the sexual improprieties among the priesthood which are now becoming known. Then we can understand the seriousness of the problem of practicing this unbiblical teaching.

The people mentioned in the first sentence are obviously NOT practicing Catholic teaching.

20 posted on 01/27/2013 4:09:50 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: GeronL

You may very well be speaking of the catholic church, but did you know that every Pope since the reformation, and still does today, that ALL men of the cloth, regardless of Christian faith, should be celibate.

After all, the Pope and the Catholic Church itself still believe they are the ONE TRUE faith, and all the rest are fakes.

I was raised a Catholic, I took catechism classes every Wednesday at 2 pm for 6 years. I know for which I speak.

I must admit, it truly taught me many things, and it was great to get out of School early every Wednesday.


21 posted on 01/27/2013 4:20:40 PM PST by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: NYer
There are married Roman Catholic priests...that is: clergymen who declare loyalty and obedience to the Holy Father in Rome....in the United States and,I suspect,other countries as well.My understanding is that most of these priests are Episcopal/Anglican priests who converted to Roman Catholicism,made the required professions of obedience to the Pontiff and were accepted into the priesthood by Rome's duly appointed representatives.

If *some* Roman Catholic priests are allowed to be married I can't understand why all are not given that option.

22 posted on 01/27/2013 4:27:28 PM PST by Gay State Conservative ("Progressives" toss the word "racist" around like chimps toss their feces)
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To: daniel1212; NYer; hosepipe; ReformationFan; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name

One only need look to paganism to understand where the idea for celibate priests comes from.


23 posted on 01/27/2013 5:08:28 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: mc5cents

Matthew 16:18 “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”


Wrong the word is “Petros” not Peter.. meaning a rock..
So some believe Jesus gave Cephas a nickname(Peter).. I do not..
maybe the other apostles did though, maybe not..
I doubt Jesus ever spoke Greek.. or most apostles.

God giving nicknames is quite familiar.. maybe licentious.. even lame..
and the word is not church.. greek and hebrew at that time didnt have a word for church.. as in synagogue..
Jesus wasn’t really into synagogues.. from my studies..

Like I said.. it takes faith to believe what you believe..
You trust dogma I do not trust.. but many others do as well..
Like Mormons trust dogma I do not trust.. same deal..
And Scientologists too.. and Buddhists and many other faiths..

I may believe things you do not trust.. I accept/tolerate that..


24 posted on 01/27/2013 6:12:26 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: OneVike
After all, the Pope and the Catholic Church itself still believe they are the ONE TRUE faith, and all the rest are fakes.

should have paid closer attention in class....the Catholic Church is indeed the one, true church......BUT, the others are not "fakes"...they have relinquished some Catholic teachings and are therefore incomplete, not wrong, just incomplete.

25 posted on 01/27/2013 7:38:48 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl

Wrong, the Church is the total collection of all believers, not an organized religious establishment. Especially one who’s priests have more times than not acted much the same way as the priests and Pharisees of Jesus day.

One of thousands of problems I have with the catholic church is the way they go directly against the teaching of Christ by calling their priests “Father”.

That being said, I am not going to get into a long drawn out discussion about the many, many errors of the Catholic Church, because there isn’t enough time in the day to do so.


26 posted on 01/27/2013 8:49:04 PM PST by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike; terycarl
How Old Is Your Church?

27 posted on 01/27/2013 9:25:16 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Gay State Conservative

It’s because they converted to the beliefs of Catholicism and want to be a Catholic priest rather than an Anglican priest.

Simple.


28 posted on 01/27/2013 9:27:30 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: OneVike

Do you really know about what you are speaking?

If you were baptized a Catholic, got out of school early on Wednesday to attend catechism classes — you are and always will be a Catholic.

That mark of Baptism (and I wonder if you were confirmed too) will always be with you.

You will always be a baptized Catholic.


29 posted on 01/27/2013 9:30:15 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: OneVike


30 posted on 01/27/2013 9:31:50 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Baptism is but a public pronouncement of one's faith in Christ, not one's faith in a religious organization.

Just because one is raised and educated by the public school system, does not mean they can never be deprogrammed of the indoctrination they received at the hands of the state school system from K-12.

Many a Pharisee was given the truth from Christ, some saw the light and became born again, many did not.

I may have been raised by going to catechism classes every Wednesday for 6 years as I stated in my comment to GeronL, but what I did not write is that I also attended a Lutheran church every Sunday with my Mother. It was my step father who was Catholic, and he tried to get me and my sister to become Catholic. (we were the two youngest of 8 children)

I had my eyes opened to the truth years later after actually reading the Bible from cover to cover and being exposed to God fearing biblical scholars who had no agenda but teaching God's Word instead of religious doctrine from an organization.

I am a Christian, not a Lutheran nor a Catholic. I do not identify myself by any other name than that of the man who died on the cross for my sins. Anyone who dares to identify themselves by another, gives the glory to Satan, not to God.

In my many years here, I have entered many religious debates, but because of the many followers I had that are Catholic, I have steered clear of debates on Catholicism. Well since I disbanded by ping list, I no longer feel the need to keep out of the foray.

I do not look to the Catholic Church as a cult as many evangelicals do, however I do think the teachings of the church is very detrimental to one growth as a Christian. That being said, I also see the teachings of many evangelical Churches as detrimental to one's Christian growth.

I guess you could almost say my Christian awakening is almost parallel to my political awakening in the last 20 to 25 years. The more I study and learn, the more I see the flaws in various religious orders today. Just as the more I learn about American politics, the more I see the flaws in most political entities. I know what is closest to the right way, and I know which ones are the farthest from the truth.

On the scale of 1 to 100, with Islam being a 1, and Christ being 100, I would put Catholicism at about 40. Whereas my understanding of Christ would be about 95. You can call me arrogant, or full of myself, but I speak of my understanding of what Christ teaches, not about my walk with Him.

I am sure there are Catholics who's walk with Christ are probably in to upper 90% as apposed to my 75% or at least around there, but understanding the truth, and living it are two different things. After all, we know that knowledge puffs up, while love edifies. I guess you could say that the more I learn, the less I seem to love at times. Sometimes I wish I were as ignorant as a child again, then I could again love those who hate me.

I guess that is our ultimate sin though, eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil opened our eyes to right and wrong. Now we find it more difficult to overlook the lies of those around us, and thus love them as Christ loved when he willingly died for our sins.

31 posted on 01/27/2013 10:45:09 PM PST by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: hosepipe
Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. Now Peter was married, but we hear nothing of his wife later on -- perhaps he and the others gave up everything to follow the Lord?

Paul was unmarried and while he talks of the virtues of marriage, he also talks of the virtues of being unmarried for God

The best balance is among the Orthodox -- a married man can become a priest (but an unmarried priest can't get married) and bishops are to remain unmarried

The history of celibacy really dates to the end dates of the 1st millenium when people noticed that the unmarried monks were a lot holier than the married priests -- or perhaps about the married priests it was like the gossip about the Vicar's wife

Think of it, even today, if there is a pastor or vicar or whatever with a wife, there tends to be gossip "oh, how does she get that money" or other sordid details, even if, in nearly all cases, the couple are above reproach

32 posted on 01/28/2013 2:53:56 AM PST by Cronos
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To: ReformationFan; GeronL
Catholics need to disown those who claim to be one but disagree with the church on everything. All denominations should

well, Catholics do do that. I don't think any denomination has excommunication (not sure) as that is just within orthodoxy (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental/Coptic/Armenian/Ethiopian and Assyrian) -- but this needs to be wielded more often, I agree

33 posted on 01/28/2013 2:55:52 AM PST by Cronos
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To: OneVike
Just look at the sexual improprieties among the priesthood which are now becoming known

Quite frankly there are also sexual impropriesties among married pastors etc.

SK (Baptist) pastor arrested on child rape charges

Pastor had sex with teens to cure their homosexuality

Riverside Pastor Now Faces 91 Sex-Related Charges

San Jose pastor accused of molesting boy

Pastor admits molesting 2 girls

Pastor held for sexually exploiting minor girls

Where is the Outrage? (evangelical pedophiles)

Pastor Admits Guilt in Sexual Abuse Cases on Consecutive Days

Pastor in Puyallup charged with child molesting

Pastors: Homosexuality not a sin (100 ordained Christian ministers have signed the proclamation)

Pastor arrested on child molestation charges

Teen testifies of abuse by pastor

Humboldt pastor pleads guilty to sex abuse

Charlotte Presbytery, too, ends gay ban

Clergy Sex Abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention

Kingston, PA, youth minister accused of molesting teens

Pastor Arrested For Child Molestation (DeLand, FL)

Arizona pastor arrested, accused of molesting boys in 3 states

Fugitive pastor wanted on child sex charges found (raw video link) (Gaston Co NC)

Sacramento pastor Molesting Teen

Pastor settles with victim out of court

Kelso Pastor Charged With Multiple Rapes In Portland, OR

Pastor jailed for rape

Delray pastor gets no jail time for molestation

pastor pleads guilty to molesting boy, attempt on brother

pastor gets 4 year sentence for molesting teens

Jersey Pastor Forced Teens to Make Sex Tape at Motel,

Coral springs youth pastor arrested for 10 counts of lewd and lascivious molestation

Ada preacher charged with molesting young boys

New Life Christian Center vows to support accused pastor (accused of sex with 13 y/o)

Pastor Convicted Of Sex Assault Dies In Prison (Dogwood City, TX)

Former Gladewater, TX, pastor pleads guilty in sexual assault of a child trial

Pastor arrested on charges of solicitation (High Point, NC)

pastor faces hearing on sex charges

Child molesting case resurfaces, could cost First Baptist Church of Hesperia millions

Former Prestonwood, TX, pastor remains jailed, faces online solicitation charges

First Baptist Church deacon Stephen Edmonds pleaded guilty to molesting three boy

Watertown, SD, Pastor Arrested, Charged With Sex Crimes

pastor pleads to 9 counts of voyeurism

Suits allege clergy misconduct, Two Baptist ministers apologize after women bring forth accusations

Stafford minister jailed for sex with boy in '80s

Sadly, this is a problem that affects married and unmarried pastors....
34 posted on 01/28/2013 2:59:03 AM PST by Cronos
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To: OneVike; GeronL
all the rest are fakes.

Sorry, but that is false "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, communion with the Catholic Church

So your statement is false -- the groups outside orthodoxy are in a certain communion and hence cannot be fakes.

Of course, the Christian groups should believe in the Trinity -- so Mormons etc. are not in communion with us -- I can respect them and their conservativeness, but don't consider them fellow Christian brethren, as I do Lutherans or Methodists etc.

35 posted on 01/28/2013 3:00:58 AM PST by Cronos
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To: OneVike; GeronL
onevike: I am sure there are Catholics who's walk with Christ are probably in to upper 90% as apposed to my 75% or at least around there, but understanding the truth, and living it are two different things....,I do not look to the Catholic Church as a cult as many evangelicals do, however I do think the teachings of the church is very detrimental to one growth as a Christian. That being said, I also see the teachings of many evangelical Churches as detrimental to one's Christian growth.

Fair enough -- I respect your difference of opinion. I disagree with you :) but I respect your way of putting things in an aim to express your belief rather than denigrate others'...

36 posted on 01/28/2013 3:03:45 AM PST by Cronos
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To: CynicalBear
One only need look to paganism to understand where the idea for celibate priests comes from.

Jesus was celibate. According to your statement that makes Him a pagan.

37 posted on 01/28/2013 5:36:34 AM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer
>> Jesus was celibate. According to your statement that makes Him a pagan.<<

Not in the least. The distinction between Jesus and carnal humans is rather profound. And equating the so called Catholic “priest” with Jesus is rather telling. Jesus was God, the Catholic “priest” is not.

38 posted on 01/28/2013 5:44:22 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Salvation
It’s because they converted to the beliefs of Catholicism and want to be a Catholic priest rather than an Anglican priest.Simple.

You've answered a question that I didn't ask.

39 posted on 01/28/2013 7:55:52 AM PST by Gay State Conservative ("Progressives" toss the word "racist" around like chimps toss their feces)
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To: NYer; CynicalBear; Whosoever

Jesus was celibate. According to your statement that makes Him a pagan.


What do you think of “The Bride of Christ”?.. if just a metaphor.. What a metaphor..

Does Christ have a bride or Not?..
If he has a bride what does that mean(imply)?...
If Christ was or will be married what was the example provided..

Your opinion on this just may be premature possibly lame..
maybe even heresy.. to some(most)..

I would advise caution... maybe a re-think...


40 posted on 01/28/2013 10:18:19 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: NYer
I'm surprised that anyone that says they're Christian would even go near a practice like that.

1 Tim 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


1 Tim 3:2
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Cor 11:11
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

Errr...seems that the Apostle Paul was very clear on this subject. Paul straight up says that forbidding to marry is a doctrine of the devil. I don't see how you get around this.
41 posted on 01/28/2013 1:33:16 PM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach
Errr...seems that the Apostle Paul was very clear on this subject.

Err .. 1 Cor 7. St. Paul clearly identifies the state of virginity or celibacy as a state that is better than the state of marriage.

42 posted on 01/28/2013 1:44:01 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: hosepipe
Does Christ have a bride or Not?

Matt 3:15
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

The New Testament is hardly a fraction of all the events that happened before, during, and after Jesus was alive on the earth.

If what's actually in the New Testament is to be taken literally, then yes, Jesus was married. Which fits because God Himself married Adam and Eve. Marriage = good in the eyes of God.

And if Paul's statement of...
1 Cor 11:11
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

... is to be taken literal, then Jesus, in order to be an example to His followers and in His own words, "fulfill all righteousness"... would have taken a wife.
43 posted on 01/28/2013 2:02:17 PM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: hosepipe

The church is the bride of christ. According to St. Paul, Christ has “won” his bride, the Church, by giving his life for her, “the greatest possible demonstration of love.”


44 posted on 01/28/2013 2:09:28 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer
Err .. 1 Cor 7. St. Paul clearly identifies the state of virginity or celibacy as a state that is better than the state of marriage.

No he doesn't, not even close. Nearly all of chapter 7 is dedicated to defining the relationship between husband and wife.

But to be inclusive he includes words to the unmarried and the widow.

Paul's words must be taken in the context of all the instruction given by Jesus and the other Apostles on the subject of marriage. They have to fit together. And saying that Paul is teaching that not being married is better than being married contradicts pretty much the whole Bible.

I think it's wiser to view Paul's words to be meant for people based on their individual circumstance are not married at that time versus an institutional doctrine of forbidding a class of people to not be married at all.
45 posted on 01/28/2013 2:31:12 PM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach
Paul's words must be taken in the context of all the instruction given by Jesus and the other Apostles on the subject of marriage. They have to fit together. And saying that Paul is teaching that not being married is better than being married contradicts pretty much the whole Bible.

Are you suggesting that celibacy is unbiblical, or even unnatural? That every man must obey the biblical injunction to "Be fruitful and multiply" (Gen. 1:28); and that Paul commands that "each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband" (1 Cor. 7:2).

46 posted on 01/28/2013 3:19:08 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer

The church is the bride of christ. According to St. Paul, Christ has “won” his bride, the Church, by giving his life for her, “the greatest possible demonstration of love.”


I see, so you may think this “implys” Priests and Nuns should fall in love with and marry the CHURCH”? or even Christ!..

Wouldn’t that be adultry?.. there are several other words for that...


47 posted on 01/28/2013 5:27:51 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: NYer
Are you suggesting that celibacy is unbiblical, or even unnatural? That every man must obey the biblical injunction to "Be fruitful and multiply" (Gen. 1:28); and that Paul commands that "each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband" (1 Cor. 7:2).

I'm saying that the doctrine of forbidding people, any people to marry, is not only unbiblical, it is literally instituted by the devil.(1 Tim. 4:1)

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,

The faith spoken of is Paul's faith or "Christianity". The time frame is the "latter times" or the last days.

How many churches in our time (or anytime), call themselves "Christian" and have any doctrine of forbidding to marry? Who else could Paul be seeing in his vision?
48 posted on 01/28/2013 5:46:00 PM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach
I'm saying that the doctrine of forbidding people, any people to marry, is not only unbiblical, it is literally instituted by the devil.(1 Tim. 4:1)

You are mistaken. In fact, the Catholic Church forbids no one to marry. No one is required to take a vow of celibacy; those who do, do so voluntarily. They "renounce marriage" (Matt. 19:12); no one forbids it to them. Any Catholic who doesn’t wish to take such a vow doesn’t have to, and is almost always free to marry with the Church’s blessing. The Church simply elects candidates for the priesthood (or, in the Eastern rites, for the episcopacy) from among those who voluntarily renounce marriage.

49 posted on 01/29/2013 5:59:19 AM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: hosepipe
I see, so you may think this “implys” Priests and Nuns should fall in love with and marry the CHURCH”? or even Christ!..

Huh? Where did you get that idea? Religious serve Christ through a vocation within the Church.

50 posted on 01/29/2013 6:05:12 AM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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