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A “Rule of Life” for Prophets: A Homily for the 4th Sunday of the Year
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | February 2, 2013 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 02/03/2013 3:43:13 PM PST by NYer

Prophets are those who speak for God. They Love God, and they love his people, and speak the very true (and often painful) truth of God to his people. They do so not to win an argument, but because of their love and conviction that only the undiluted truth of God can save us in the end.

People-pleasing and other forms of human respect cannot supplant the reverence for God and His truth. Thus Prophets are willing to endure pain and suffering to proclaim God’s truth to an often unappreciative segment of God’s people. But out of love for God and his people, they press on to proclaim his truth, and they do so willingly, knowing that even death awaits their personal, persistent and prophetic proclamation.

Today’s readings set for us a kind of “rule for life for prophets.” And we, who are baptized into the order of prophet, do well to hear the teachings of these readings, Let us examine them in three stages.

I. The Call that is Declared – The text says: In the first reading God says to Jeremiah (and to us): The word of the LORD came to me, saying: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you. But do you gird your loins; stand up and tell them all that I command you.

We ought to note four things about our call as prophets.

1. The Prevenient nature of our Call- The word “prevenient” refers to something which comes before; which precedes, something that is expectant or anticipatory. And thus God has not chosen us in a whimsical way, as if to say, “you’ll do.” He has considered our call before He made us and equipped, empowered and enabled us for our work.

God tells Jeremiah and us, that he has known, loved and cherished us long before He ever made us. And thus he made us in a way that prepared and equipped us of the very work of being a prophet.

How? you say. That is as variable as the person you are. There is no one who can proclaim God or announce the kingdom like you can. Perhaps too he has especially equipped you to evangelize certain individuals no one else can reach. Just know this, God has thought a long time about you and prepared for you in very specific and thoughtful ways. What ever you have needed has “come before” is “prevenient.”

2. The Purview of our Call -The text tells Jeremiah (and us) that we are appointed unto the nations. Now, Jeremiah did not himself, in his own life, journey beyond Israel. But since his life, the Word of the Lord uttered through him, has reached every nation.

Never doubt the influence you can exert by the grace of God. Even in and through reaching one person you can change the destiny of many. Stay in your lane and do your work, but remember God can accomplish through you more than you ask or imagine. Your influence by his grace can reach the nations.

3. The Preparation of our Call -The Lord tells Jeremiah (and us) to “gird our loins.” This is an ancient way of saying “roll up your sleeves.” In other words, prepare to work by assembling what you need and being ready to exert effort.

Surely for us this means daily prayer, weekly Eucharist and frequent confession. It means prayerfully reading God’s reading and the teaching of the Church and it means keeping fellowship with the Church, and with fellow believers. All of this equips, empowers and enables us for the work of being a prophet which God has called us to do.

Beyond this there may be other specific gifts God calls us to develop, be it music, learning a second language, growing in the gift of healing, preaching, or administration. What it may be, God will show you and help you to grow the gifts and talents you have received.

In all this you “roll up your sleeves” for the work God has given and is preparing you for so that you will be an evermore effective prophet.

4. The Prescription of our Call -The text says, “tell them all that I command you.” In other words, leave nothing out, proclaim the whole counsel of God. Don’t just proclaim what appeals to you or jives with you politics and worldview, don’t just say what is popular or in sync with currently worldly thinking. Tell them the whole message, in season or out of season.

II. The Courage that is Demanded – The text says Be not crushed on their account, as though I would leave you crushed before them; for it is I this day who have made you a fortified city, a pillar of iron, a wall of brass, against the whole land: against Judah’s kings and princes, against its priests and people.

And here note three qualities of a prophet:

Strength - A prophet needs to be strong, for people are stubborn and unwilling to easily change. Indeed, we are collectively a stiff-necked people, we have a neck of iron and forehead of brass. We are thick-headed, willful and obdurate. A prophet has to be willing to endure a lot to move the ball even a few inches. If you don’t think we’re a hard case, look at the cross and see what it took to save us (you). Prophets need strength and persistence.

Support- The prophet (Jeremiah and us) is called “a pillar of iron.” That is, we are to lend support to a crumbling nation and culture. Whether our culture likes to admit it or not, it is crumbling and collapsing, If it stands any chance at all, it is only that we are willing to be a pillar of iron calling this culture back to modesty, decency, chastity, self control, maturity, obedience to God and generosity to the poor. Otherwise, everything is destined for ruin.

Sadly the Church has often had to pick up the shattered pieces of fallen cultures, nations and eras that refused to repent. But this is what prophets must do, they must be pillars of iron when cultures go weak and soft, or crumble under the weight of pride, sin and un-repentance.

And failing that, we must become, by God’s grace the new foundation and pillar of what rises from the ashes. All of this takes great courage.

Sanctifier - Jeremiah is told that the priests, kings and princes have all been co-opted, and corrupted, and he must speak the truth to them all and summon them to repentance.

Here is the hardest work of the prophet, to call those who most benefit from the status quo, to change and repentance. This is not only hard because they are “on top” of the current system, but it is also hard because to one degree or another, they are owed respect and obedience as lawful superiors.

Navigating the balance between respect for authority and the summons of them to repentance is not easy and only God can really pull it off. Nevertheless speaking the truth to power is the unenviable lot of the prophet.

Well, fellow prophets this means you and me. I would only urge prayer here. Bishop-bashing and the usual fare of ridiculing political leaders is not the solution. Neither is quiet acquiescence when we are clear that those in authority need to hear a call from the Lord. Lots of prayer and a general tone of respect will surely lead the way. Clarity with charity, and light with love.

III. The Conclusion that is Determined - The text says, They will fight against you but not prevail over you, for I am with you to deliver you, says the LORD.

In the end, the truth will out. The Light wins, He always wins. Every night gives way to day and the light scatters darkness. Darkness has its hour but truth has eternity. Good Friday only points to Easter Sunday, and death is cast off like a garment. In the end, every true prophet is on the winning team. While he may endure jail, laughter, ridicule. persecution, setbacks and trials, what every true prophet announces will come to pass. History bears this out and it will be definitively manifest at the Last Day. The darkness cannot prevail, it always gives place to the light.

The Conclusion for the prophet, for the Church, for the Gospel, for the Lord is total victory. It cannot be any other way, God has spoken it and He will do it.

Even if in a small way the Lord Jesus shows this in today’s Gospel. The text says,

They rose up, drove him out of the town, and led him to the brow of the hill on which their town had been built, to hurl him down headlong. But Jesus passed through the midst of them and went away.

Here is a preview of Easter, just when Satan is running his victory lap, the Lord casts off death and stands as light in the shadow of the Cross. Satan loses, Jesus wins. That is the conclusion.

So get on the winning team. Pay little heed to the current struggle, it cannot last or win. Jesus has already won.


TOPICS: History; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 02/03/2013 3:43:17 PM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 02/03/2013 3:44:31 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


3 posted on 02/03/2013 3:45:36 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer

I tried to go the Msgr Pope’s blog site and got a red Microsoft warning page of “malicious software embedded” reported for page. without allowing me to go to the page.

Has anyone else gotten this?


4 posted on 02/03/2013 4:47:34 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: GreyFriar

My Norton just gave me a note that it blocked a Blackhole attack. I was let on the site though.


5 posted on 02/03/2013 5:33:57 PM PST by Shark24
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To: NYer; metmom; boatbums

This was written To jeremiah not to us, all of us are not prophets...and so the promises are not for us..


6 posted on 02/03/2013 7:38:32 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; NYer
Are you baptized?

What It Means to be Baptized a Priest, Prophet, & King

For those unfamiliar with the rite of baptism, after a person is baptized in the Catholic Church, the baptizing priest tells the person, in the presence of the person's sponsor, that he/she is baptized a priest, prophet, and king.  The meaning of the title goes as follows:

Priest

To be "baptized a priest" means that you have the power to offer prayers & sacrifices for the conversion of sinners and to obtain results in the process.  This is your most important power, because Christ came "to save his people from their sins.,"  When you partake in Christ's highest mission, it makes you the most Christlike of all humanity. 

Prophet

To be baptized a prophet means that you know the mind of God and the eventual consequence of living contrary to God's mind.   Now, the Mind of God, the Way of God, the Will of God, and the Law of God are the exact same thing.  In being baptized, you instinctively know the way God is.   Prophets are social consciences.  In being baptized a prophet, you literally receive an instinctive conscience regarding the intimate details of God's personality.  This includes God's likes and dislikes.  God's dislikes are known as sins.


King

To be baptized a king means that you were christened as was King David and that the christening enables you to share in the Divinity of Christ.  This means that you have the power to unite your works with Christ and make them infinite.   This was indicated at Fatima, in a prayer that the Angel of Peace taught the Fatima children, in 1916.

As a qualifying note, in order to have the power to absolve penitents from sin, one needs the sacrament of Holy Orders. 

7 posted on 02/03/2013 9:27:40 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: RnMomof7; NYer
NCRegister Excerpt

 

Prophet, Priest and King

Baptism, Part 4

Friday, Sep 04, 2009 3:57 PM 

Most of us don’t wake up in the morning thinking of ourselves as The Fulfillment of Prophecy. Still and all, we are. Oh, not because we are any great shakes ourselves, of course. Left to our own devices apart from grace we’d only be the fulfillment of somebody’s worst nightmare. But, when we are joined to Christ in baptism, we become part of the fulfillment of prophecy because he is.

This is exactly the view Paul takes when he tells the Romans that suffering Christians are the fulfillment of Psalm 44:22 (Romans 8:36). And it is also the position the Church takes when it proclaims that every baptized Christian participates in Christ’s threefold office of prophet, priest and king.

God promises us through his word that “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him” (Deuteronomy 18:18). Christ, of course, fulfills this promise perfectly, not only by his own prophetic words, but also by being the fulfillment of all the words the prophets have spoken. In our baptism, we share in Christ’s own prophetic office in the world, speaking forth the word of God and sharing in the rewards (and brickbats) that a prophet receives.

A prophet is not primarily somebody who predicts the future (though that does rarely happen). A prophet is a mouth. False prophets are mouths for the Spirit of the Age or Madison Avenue or sometimes simply themselves. A true prophet is a mouth for God. He speaks the word of God to the world.

But a Christian doesn’t just speak to the world. He also speaks to God. And the way in which we speak is the way Jesus speaks. That is, it includes, but is not limited to, verbal prayer. That’s because Christ is the Word made flesh, not merely the Word made word. The main prayer Jesus makes to his Father is the offering of his flesh and blood. That’s total commitment. And it is precisely the offering we are called to make: “I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (Romans 12:1).


8 posted on 02/03/2013 9:33:16 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GreyFriar; Shark24

I got that security message for the first time this morning. I hope someone at the Archdiocese of Washington is working on it!


9 posted on 02/04/2013 2:34:46 AM PST by Tax-chick (Just what this family needs: more smugness.)
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To: GreyFriar; Shark24

I got that security message for the first time this morning. I hope someone at the Archdiocese of Washington is working on it!


10 posted on 02/04/2013 2:34:57 AM PST by Tax-chick (Just what this family needs: more smugness.)
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To: Salvation; daniel1212; CynicalBear; metmom

That is an extra biblical definition of prophet.. No such thing is taught anywhere in scripture..
A prophet is a special messenger of God sent with a specific message,they have a special message to deliver to a particular man or people for a specific purpose of God..

We say the Bible is infallible because it is written by man as inspired by the Holy Spirit..prophecy..if he error in one point he is a false prophet ;

Deuteronomy 18:21-22, “And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”

Jesus warned in Matthew 24:24-25, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.”
Seems like Rome is determined to make all the baptized false prophets ..
But let this warning stand.. this is a false gospel preached taking scripture out of context and generalizing a specific promise.. itching ears may like it, but that does not mean it is true.

The need for Prophets ended when the scriptures were complete..there is no further revelation needed ..the scriptures contain all we need to know God and His will and plan

Matthew 7:15-20, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing,


11 posted on 02/04/2013 7:53:27 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

A prophet is a teller of the truth. Doesn’t that happen today?

It isn’t always foretelling the future.


12 posted on 02/04/2013 8:01:06 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: RnMomof7; Salvation; daniel1212; metmom

And did you notice there was no supporting scripture? Interesting that.


13 posted on 02/04/2013 8:06:08 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: RnMomof7; Salvation; daniel1212; CynicalBear; metmom
That is an extra biblical definition of prophet.. No such thing is taught anywhere in scripture..

TRUE, that.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

(e-Sword:KJV)

The need for Prophets ended when the scriptures were complete..there is no further revelation needed ..the scriptures contain all we need to know God and His will and plan

I don't know where you are getting that part from. Where does it SAY the prophets are no more?

14 posted on 02/04/2013 9:11:43 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1
1 Corinthians 13:8 Paul says, "Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away." 9–-10 "For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect [literally: For we know in part and we prophesy in part]; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away."

The reason that the LDS and the RC have so much false doctrine is they believe in new "revelation" that adds o the scriptures.

Any "prophecy "that can not be supported by the scriptures is by definition false.

If a new prophecy must align with the scriptures, why would we "need it" as as it has already been spoken inis word?

If prophecy continued today, then we are faced with the quite practical and troublesome fact that Scripture alone is not a sufficient verbal revelation from God.

15 posted on 02/04/2013 12:02:19 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
1 Corinthians 13:8 Paul says, "Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away." 9–-10 "For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect [literally: For we know in part and we prophesy in part]; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away."

I would note that Paul is speaking of some time after that time, so 'the perfect' cannot be going back to the cross... but rather, looking forward, I would assume, to the Kingdom.

The reason that the LDS and the RC have so much false doctrine is they believe in new "revelation" that adds o the scriptures.

That some abuse the office does not mean the office is faulty or gone.

Any "prophecy "that can not be supported by the scriptures is by definition false.

TRUE, but prophets are not only about revealing the new. Mostly they are about exhortation, and about bringing people back to the truth.

If a new prophecy must align with the scriptures, why would we "need it" as as it has already been spoken inis word?

There are two who will come in the end of days who will prophesy - The two witnesses... Shall we not listen to them either?

If prophecy continued today, then we are faced with the quite practical and troublesome fact that Scripture alone is not a sufficient verbal revelation from God.

One is also conveniently left without any mechanism of correction, which is mostly what prophets are about.

16 posted on 02/04/2013 2:47:46 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: CynicalBear

You got excerpts from both. Check them out.


17 posted on 02/04/2013 4:21:26 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: roamer_1

RC — Reformed Calvinist?

Or were you talking about the Catholic Church with many rites, one of which is the Latin Rite — that you call Roman Catholic.


18 posted on 02/04/2013 4:24:12 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: roamer_1

RC — Reformed Calvinist?

Or were you talking about the Catholic Church with many rites, one of which is the Latin Rite — that you call Roman Catholic.


19 posted on 02/04/2013 4:24:44 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

It is not I who used the ‘RC’ appellation ro refer to the Roman church. If you were to look closely, you might see that I was quoting someone else.


20 posted on 02/04/2013 4:29:24 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1; CynicalBear; metmom; RnMomof7

In the light of Scripture, and confirmed testimony, I can not honestly believe the “sign” gifts have all ceased (cessationism), nor that there is no more need for miracles, as such were not simply in order provide revelation, but to confirm it, (Mk. 16:20; Jn. 14:11) which was for salvation for the humble elect (Rm. 15:19) and judgment for those who rejected the word. (Lk. 10:12-15)

The “perfect” that is to come is the perfect revelation of Christ, (1Jn. 3:2) when believers shall see Him as He is, as it best corresponds to what Paul describes, when believers shall see “face to face,” and know even as also they are known, (1Cor. 13:10-12) but the completion of the canon does not fully provides this degree of clarity, much due to bad reception on our end.

And God has not taken a sabbatical rest from confirming His word with signs following (http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/Amazing) - though fabrications abound and all must be tested by Scripture - but instead it is part of the nature of God to show grace and manifest that He is the living God throughout history.

However, as seen in Scripture, (Ex. 17:11,22,; 18:7,8) the devil seeks to operate at whatever level God does - as it was his original intent to be like God (Is. 14:14; the original “occupy movement” and “share the wealth” demand - and thus, as with Moses, the church must overcome evil with Good, and falsehood with Truth.

Christianity is in essence a supernatural faith. People did not follow Moses of the Lord or the apostles simply because they had made oral arguments, but because their word was with power and was confirmed by the same. But it is both the imitations of the devil and the flesh that bring one class to disallow or marginalize the miraculous (at least outside of the new birth, which is primary), and another class to allow most anything so that at least some will fly.

Prophets, along with the apostles were the foundation of the church, (Eph. 2:20). And while many today claim to sit in that office, they come short of its credentials. This does not preclude souls from having the the gift of prophecy (but which is not restricted to foretelling, but can mean forth-telling), though in all my years i have yet to know of a prediction that i have seen verified, although claims were made, while false prophecies are what abundantly abound.

If i said something like, i believe Japan will see a significant conflict in the near future, that it is not the same as “thus saith the Lord.” But to falsely claim something in the name of the Lord was a capital offense in the O.T. , as were other forms of unholy presumption, which was the #1 cause of supernatural execution.

But a distinction is to be made btwn a sincere believer who was sincerely wrong, and a false prophet who as a practices invoke the name of God to sanction his “business,” though both are wrong (and how many times have we falsely sanctified something by claiming His authority or approval in some way?)


21 posted on 02/05/2013 10:47:41 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212; CynicalBear; metmom; RnMomof7
In the light of Scripture, and confirmed testimony, I can not honestly believe the “sign” gifts have all ceased (cessationism), nor that there is no more need for miracles, as such were not simply in order provide revelation, but to confirm it, (Mk. 16:20; Jn. 14:11) which was for salvation for the humble elect (Rm. 15:19) and judgment for those who rejected the word. (Lk. 10:12-15)

I will readily agree - And my observations are personal, as I can witness to great things done within my greater house, and even within myself. I often wonder if our technologies mask the works of the Spirit with 'lying signs and wonders', preventing us on the whole from what would otherwise be considered miraculous works.

The “perfect” that is to come is the perfect revelation of Christ, (1Jn. 3:2) when believers shall see Him as He is, as it best corresponds to what Paul describes, when believers shall see “face to face,” and know even as also they are known, (1Cor. 13:10-12) but the completion of the canon does not fully provides this degree of clarity, much due to bad reception on our end.

That is true, and if we have contention in this matter, it is over the mechanics of that revelation. My words declared a physical Kingdom here upon the earth (which we do pray for any time we utter the Lord's prayer) as the point of that revelation... So in essence, whether that follows your prescription precisely or not, I do believe we are looking forward to the same event.

And God has not taken a sabbatical rest from confirming His word with signs following (http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/Amazing) - though fabrications abound and all must be tested by Scripture - but instead it is part of the nature of God to show grace and manifest that He is the living God throughout history.

Indeed, and I would add that my main contention with dispensationalism (with which I largely agree) would be the claim that there was a rest or discontinuation of the Prophecy (as opposed to prophets per se) for nearly two thousand years, which, by the nature of what the Prophecy is *for*, cannot be the truth. I think that all the works of YHWH, big and small, are ticking right along with a precision worthy of making a Swiss watch look like a tinker-toy. And it is that proof to each and every generation, as you have defined, that must needfully make that proof a principle thing.

However, as seen in Scripture, (Ex. 17:11,22,; 18:7,8) the devil seeks to operate at whatever level God does - as it was his original intent to be like God (Is. 14:14; the original “occupy movement” and “share the wealth” demand - and thus, as with Moses, the church must overcome evil with Good, and falsehood with Truth.

TRUE. But if we listen and adhere to the words of the Father, then we have obtained the truth - or at least enough of it (seen through a glass darkly) to effect our salvation (in the ordinary sense of rescue). Ergo, we do possess the truth, as our FRiend RnMomof7 has defined. But history has shown us how that truth is regularly distorted to where the sheep, all unknowingly, have wandered past a breach in the wall:

It seems to me that such breaches are developed through errant doctrine (doctrine, the tool of teachers and preachers), and as such, the purveyors of doctrine are not in a position to fix the breach (as they are the cause thereof). There are only two offices in the ordinary function of the Assembly that transcend the authority of that doctrine, those of the Apostle and of the Prophet.

Christianity is in essence a supernatural faith. People did not follow Moses of the Lord or the apostles simply because they had made oral arguments, but because their word was with power and was confirmed by the same. But it is both the imitations of the devil and the flesh that bring one class to disallow or marginalize the miraculous (at least outside of the new birth, which is primary), and another class to allow most anything so that at least some will fly.

True.

Prophets, along with the apostles were the foundation of the church, (Eph. 2:20). And while many today claim to sit in that office, they come short of its credentials. This does not preclude souls from having the the gift of prophecy (but which is not restricted to foretelling, but can mean forth-telling), though in all my years i have yet to know of a prediction that i have seen verified, although claims were made, while false prophecies are what abundantly abound.

But here we are at the conundrum: The very first thing to leave an apostate assembly are it's true prophets. This is a sign that they have stepped beyond the breach, having been sent prophets for correction, but having not listened to them (to the point of killing them in many cases). If one examines the record, this can be a very lengthy time frame (more than a generation), wherein YHWH is withholding judgement in hopes that they will turn from their way. One must be discerning of this state before jumping to the conclusion that prophets are no more. It is a sign of huge portent when YHWH's people are without a prophet... Or, for that matter, that the prophets are in fact there, but are not being listened to (and thus, out of the limelight's glow).

It would not be an uncommon thing for doctrine to be used in order to explain that loss, because the loss is likely generated by wayward doctrine. I have to go by what YHWH set up in the first place (return to the original contract, as it were), and wonder where the prophets are. I would include apostles too, but I can see where some could go either way on that, as apostles may be only the thirteen or so given that office directly, though I would consider it a valid and on-going office.

But either way, it is only these two offices that can correct wayward doctrine with the authority of direct divine intervention, and their absence from greater Christendom should give one pause.

If i said something like, i believe Japan will see a significant conflict in the near future, that it is not the same as “thus saith the Lord.” But to falsely claim something in the name of the Lord was a capital offense in the O.T. , as were other forms of unholy presumption, which was the #1 cause of supernatural execution.

But a distinction is to be made btwn a sincere believer who was sincerely wrong, and a false prophet who as a practices invoke the name of God to sanction his “business,” though both are wrong (and how many times have we falsely sanctified something by claiming His authority or approval in some way?)

You are right, of course, but in that I fall back to my previous comment: That some abuse the office does not negate the office, or in it's true use, it's efficacy. My Pentecostal friends imagine a case where prophets are new at their trade, and make mistakes along the way... Perhaps that is true, but when someone is speaking in the name of YHWH (Thus sayeth the Lord), it better be true.

But then there is another thing: The great and minor prophets laid down prophecy which, in their day, was not completed. Most folks can see the near-term events that those prophets pointed to which gave them efficacy, and thereby, authority. But in the near term, the prophecy is not perfectly fulfilled, which is why we today expect a perfect fulfillment to come. How does one navigate such a thing produced today?

Thx for your reply.

22 posted on 02/06/2013 11:54:53 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1
t seems to me that such breaches are developed through errant doctrine (doctrine, the tool of teachers and preachers), and as such, the purveyors of doctrine are not in a position to fix the breach (as they are the cause thereof). There are only two offices in the ordinary function of the Assembly that transcend the authority of that doctrine, those of the Apostle and of the Prophet.

Glad we seem to agree on most things, but here it seems you are presenting doctrine in a negative light as opposed to apostles or prophets, however, doctrine is that you are even expressing here, and is not itself a negative thing, nor is it something apostles or prophets were above, but instead they preached doctrine themselves, and won over the competition by superior virtue and power.

The very first thing to leave an apostate assembly are it's true prophets. This is a sign that they have stepped beyond the breach, having been sent prophets for correction...it is only these two offices that can correct wayward doctrine with the authority of direct divine intervention, and their absence from greater Christendom should give one pause. ,

The problem here is that of men elevating themselves as virtual popes, which is itself a problem, based upon their own claim to office. And in my many years as a Christian, if unprofitable servant, every person who was hailed or who hail themselves as a modern day apostle or prophet has not proved it to my knowledge, and what i have usually seen testifiers against such, not that i exclude there can yet be some who do prophecy from God in fulfillment of Scripture and consistent with it, or leaders who are sent from God to plant many churches (Chuck Smith, etc,.).

But authenticity is based upon Scriptural substantiation in word, power and virtue, (2Cor. 6:4-10) having "renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. " (2 Corinthians 4:2) In which i certain come short.

Those who do so will not need the advertising and gimmicks and pseudo prophecies that abound today, and i think true prophets or those who walk in the spirit of such have been more forth tellers that foretellers, and relatively ignored except by a remant as voices crying in the wilderness.

Watch/Listen to a sample of such who preach like that: Soldiers

23 posted on 02/06/2013 6:09:38 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
Glad we seem to agree on most things, but here it seems you are presenting doctrine in a negative light as opposed to apostles or prophets, however, doctrine is that you are even expressing here, and is not itself a negative thing, nor is it something apostles or prophets were above, but instead they preached doctrine themselves, and won over the competition by superior virtue and power.

To be more precise, perhaps I should say 'errant doctrine which has reached the level of dogma', or that which has become so ingrained that it may as well be dogma. But in saying that, I do not want to lose the broader term of 'doctrine'. Many doctrinal beliefs are not exactly injurious to the Word, and may only be indifferent - Yet in that, they are *not* Word. And even though indifferent, the distraction they provide works against the Word all the same.

And I do not mean to malign doctrine. As I said, it is a tool of teachers and preachers, and can often be inspired. That is not the point. Rather, it is a somewhat natural extension of preaching that it would tend to go astray - That, I believe, is why YHWH ordered the pageantry of ridding one's house of all leaven once a year, a practice which Christians ignore.

,

The problem here is that of men elevating themselves as virtual popes, which is itself a problem, based upon their own claim to office. And in my many years as a Christian, if unprofitable servant, every person who was hailed or who hail themselves as a modern day apostle or prophet has not proved it to my knowledge, and what i have usually seen testifiers against such, not that i exclude there can yet be some who do prophecy from God in fulfillment of Scripture and consistent with it, or leaders who are sent from God to plant many churches (Chuck Smith, etc,.).

I have found a meager few... just a handful. And not a one was to be found in grand cathedrals or on Christian TV. Similarly, during a dark time, I received encouragement from a total stranger sent to me specifically (or so it seems), with an uncanny knowledge of my precise situation. So while I recognize your statement to be true in general, my own experience suggests their existence. But then I do not look for such things within the borders of orthodoxy - When orthodoxy is no longer orthodox, what seems to be heresy is where to look for truth... Even as the Roman church considered the Protestants to be heretic because they would not yield to what was considered orthodox by their demand.

So a crazy street preacher is more likely to catch my attention, and a tent beside the road is more likely to draw me in than a building made of stone... The 'foolish things' as it were... And while most of the time one is likely to find actual heresy, and real foolishness, every now and then one finds something incredibly and powerfully authentic.

I think one must consider what Ezekiel looked like to the common man, as he lay naked in the street, cooking his goofy bread over a dung fire, and building his silly toy castles. There, FRiend, is a prophet of YHWH. How many people must have passed him by uttering epithets against his sanity? How foolish did he look, especially compared to the churchmen of his day, and the opulence and 'authority' of the priesthood?

That isn't to say that YHWH's prophets didn't come in power too - Cattle tipping over from the power emanating from Elijah is a pretty awesome sight to imagine... And David was a beloved king. But for the most part, prophets seem to be itinerant and solitary (except when together, or hanging with musicians [Samuel, etc]), and as the record proves, largely ignored or even hated. Bearing that in mind, where does one suppose that one will find a prophet? Isn't it reasonable to suppose he will be the crazy one that nobody listens to?

Those who do so will not need the advertising and gimmicks and pseudo prophecies that abound today, and i think true prophets or those who walk in the spirit of such have been more forth tellers that foretellers, and relatively ignored except by a remant as voices crying in the wilderness.

Hasn't it generally always been so?

Watch/Listen to a sample of such who preach like that: Soldiers

Just.WOW. :) Thanks for that.

24 posted on 02/08/2013 10:07:14 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: RnMomof7

25 posted on 06/08/2013 5:31:55 AM PDT by narses
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