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To: alancarp
Faith and grace are the gifts of God to the (elected) believer.

I think you're agreeing with my point. Faith and grace are conditional - determined by election. Therefore salvation is by election. No election, no grace, no faith.

However you may feel about its correctness, this is at odds with salvation by grace through faith.

5 posted on 02/07/2013 12:21:58 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

Calvinism doesn’t seem to agree that all Scripture is useful for teaching, so most tend to ignore the passages they can’t just explain away.


6 posted on 02/07/2013 12:30:15 PM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: D-fendr

Let me see if I can come ‘round it a different way, then: Reformed Theology declares that God is in control of all things - including who he chooses salvation for. The Ephesians passage declares that those elected are given these tools - grace/faith by a means that is irresistible... and salvation is the result. This is indeed salvation by grace (bestowed from God) through faith (also bestowed by God).

If you want to say this means that salvation is by election (by derivation), then so be it - Ephesians 1:4-5 suggest strongly that the election to salvation occurred before the creation. I don’t see that this changes anything since it all comes from the Father... it’s still consistent.


7 posted on 02/07/2013 12:33:34 PM PST by alancarp (Obama will grab your guns and ship them to Mexican drug mobs.)
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To: D-fendr

Election is the means that God uses to show his grace and to impart faith on the believer.


8 posted on 02/07/2013 12:36:31 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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