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My Train Wreck Conversion..., I despised Christians. Then I somehow became one.
Christianity Today ^ | 2/7/2013 9:26AM | Rosaria Champagne Butterfield

Posted on 02/08/2013 6:58:50 PM PST by daniel1212

The word Jesus stuck in my throat like an elephant tusk; no matter how hard I choked, I couldn't hack it out. Those who professed the name commanded my pity and wrath.

I began researching the Religious Right..

Ken Smith encouraged me to explore the kind of questions I admire:

Ken and his wife, Floy, and I became friends.

I started reading the Bible. I read the way a glutton devours.

I counted the costs. And I did not like the math on the other side..

Then, one ordinary day, I came to Jesus, openhanded..

(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: butterfield; christian; conversion; exfeminist; exlesbian; homosexualagenda; homosexuality; lesbian; presbyterian; reformed; rpcna; rpw; salvation
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It is impossible to even give a cursory overview of all this in the 100 word limit allowed for this (which is wrong in my view), so see the rest here :

Despite her revulsion at Pat Robertson's comments, they are indeed generally accurate in the overall sense (with witchcraft being rebellion), but even abortionists and communists can value hospitality, and show some sacrifice and integrity.

Nor are all those who protest "gay" parades part of Fred Phelps' tribe, or make it wrong.

But she was also valued morality, and was a seeker, and if one obeys the light they have, more will be given, and confronted with the reality of Hell, she did not rationalize it away, but being called of God, she found Him.

Note that while God promises understanding after obedience, this is not blind faith, but a step of faith for which God has provided some warrant, and which step is confirmed.

And in being drawn of God, He used believers who geuninley cared for her as a whole person, which is what Christian love does, and a church which was not mostly ritual, but relationship.

None of which is contrary to confrontational evangelism, if done out of a heart that genuinely cares for souls, but not simply for their soul, though that must be primary and salvation and sanctification the goal.

1 posted on 02/08/2013 6:58:58 PM PST by daniel1212
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To: metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; Springfield Reformer; Lera; ...

Ping: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-february/my-train-wreck-conversion.html?paging=off


2 posted on 02/08/2013 7:04:47 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: daniel1212

I continue to be alarmed by the ongoing contempt/hatred of Christianity from individuals I thought I knew. Fortunately, Christianity has a built-in firewall that helps manage one’s reaction to such revelations. Whenever provided, the reasons for the contempt are not reflective of Christ, but of flawed cultural messaging and perceptions.


4 posted on 02/08/2013 7:18:49 PM PST by Gene Eric (The Palin Doctrine.)
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To: daniel1212

I was so shocked the day I realized the person looking back in the mirror at me was me.


5 posted on 02/08/2013 7:19:42 PM PST by bigheadfred
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To: daniel1212

thanks for the post. great job pastor ken, gently making that small opening for Him.


6 posted on 02/08/2013 7:30:30 PM PST by dadfly
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To: daniel1212

What a powerful testimony.


7 posted on 02/08/2013 7:33:20 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: daniel1212

Eternal Salvation comes somewhat disguised in a plain brown wrapper...

Rejected by the intellectuals and the wealthy, but grabbed on to as a life preserver by the failing, the poor, the destitute and other less fortunate souls in this incarnation.

The last shall be first and the first shall be last...


8 posted on 02/08/2013 7:40:51 PM PST by One Name (Ultimately, the TRUTH is a razor's edge and no man can sit astride it.)
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To: daniel1212

I accepted Jesus as a matter of fact when I was a child. As I grew up to many things made me rethink his existence. To many facts are missing,, undocumented, and lacking and form of proof.

NOT one document was EVER survived or even mentioned where as enough writings of everyone else of any importance has survived. Jesus was not even mentioned by anyone with the exception of Paul and the Disciples, and THAT only occurred over two Decades after his was supposedly crucified.

Even Herod’s records of crucifixions make no mention of Christ or anyone but criminals, political enemies, captured soldiers but no religious profits.

Nor is there any mention anywhere that Jesus EVER wrote - period. It is also noted that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing. No scribes were ever mentioned which many illiterate (most were so).

Only Paul wrote but 1. he was not a disciple, 2. He was a Roman Citizen and well educated in Greek and other languages. His writings are prolific.

I have become closer to the fact that there is definitely a God. I see it not only in everything around me but also in the actual evolution of mankind and every creature on this planet.

Jesus may have existed. I can’t say - but his teachings (or whoever originated the concepts attributed to him), definitely were extremely important to mankind.


9 posted on 02/08/2013 7:49:06 PM PST by jongaltsr
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To: daniel1212

I was a Buddhist right up to the moment I became a Christian. I had seen Christian treat each other (and myself) incredibly poorly and decided, if that was what it meant to be a Christian, I wanted none of it.

I’m now a worship leader/music director at a church in north Phoenix and have self-produced two CD of original Christian songs. God has such a sense of humor. The fact that He’s let me live is proof!


10 posted on 02/08/2013 7:56:57 PM PST by stansblugrassgrl (PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!!! YEEEEEHAW!)
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To: daniel1212
Wow.

This article doesn't go into it, but this had to have cost her everything she valued at that time.

Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.

11 posted on 02/08/2013 7:58:55 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means." --I. Montoya)
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To: jongaltsr

Early secular sources mentioning Jesus - http://life.liegeman.org/historymaker/extern.html


12 posted on 02/08/2013 8:05:27 PM PST by pbear8 (the Lord is my light and my salvation)
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To: jongaltsr
If you google "Historic records of Christ's crucifixion" you'll find the writings of Josephus, and Tacitus. There are a couple of others also.

Peter asked to be crucified upside down as he was unequal to die the same as Christ. I think the Romans who were killing him knew of whom he spoke.

I used to be a former atheist and I think it's a very healthy thing to question one's faith. I hope you find what you're looking for, I would also pick up a copy of The Language of God it had a huge role in my conversion.

13 posted on 02/08/2013 8:07:53 PM PST by erod (I'm a Chicagoan till Chicago ends...)
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To: jongaltsr
Only Paul wrote but 1. he was not a disciple,

Paul met Jesus in person. Read Acts 9.

14 posted on 02/08/2013 8:12:13 PM PST by 17th Miss Regt
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To: jongaltsr

“Nor is there any mention anywhere that Jesus EVER wrote - period. It is also noted that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing. No scribes were ever mentioned which many illiterate (most were so).”

I’m not sure what the first point about Jesus is supposed to achieve; Christians do not believe that Jesus wrote the Bible. ‘It is noted that NONE ...’? Noted where? By who? You can’t just claim a thing and say that it’s ‘noted’. Remember that only a few were fishermen. One was a tax collector. One was a doctor. And even the ones that weren’t literate weren’t wholly incapable of dictating their accounts to someone who WAS literate. So again, these are hardly unanswerable questions.


15 posted on 02/08/2013 8:17:24 PM PST by nagelbett
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To: daniel1212
Daniel, there is not a 100 word limit on excerpts; in fact it is 300.

Some entities are not on the excerpt list...Christianity Today is one of the ones not there.

So the whole article can be posted.

You can always check on This Thread (<---click there) to see if a particular newspaper or website is on the must excerpt list.

16 posted on 02/08/2013 8:30:10 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: daniel1212
God promises understanding after obedience

This is the hardest part for some to cross. I have said "If you're not going to believe what he says, why should he talk to you?" But this hasn't always "worked"--they can't do it somehow. Sometimes I think the less said, the better.

17 posted on 02/08/2013 8:41:31 PM PST by firebrand
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To: nagelbett
Nor is there any mention anywhere that Jesus EVER wrote - period.

Jesus wrote in the sand while every one was dispersing from stoning the adulterous woman.

18 posted on 02/08/2013 8:42:15 PM PST by stars & stripes forever ((Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord!))
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To: firebrand

Robert Frost wrote something like this: “It was the nature of the test that you not understand it at the time.”

Makes sense too. If you understand it first, then you know it is for your own good, and if you know it’s for your own good, then you are not doing it for the right reason.


19 posted on 02/08/2013 8:47:12 PM PST by firebrand
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To: jongaltsr
If you would like to be truly fair, read The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel. Strobel was a Chicago Tribune investigative reporter, a fervent atheist, who was deeply annoyed when his wife became a Christian. Using his investigative skills, he launched a research effort to demonstrate to her that Christianity was false. He flew all over the US to consult some of the world's foremost experts, and was greatly dismayed at what he learned: the historic evidence is extremely good.

Take a look. The Case for Christ Speaking as someone trained in science and with an inherently skeptical nature, I found this fascinating and persuasive.

20 posted on 02/08/2013 8:57:38 PM PST by ottbmare (The OTTB Mare)
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To: daniel1212; Behind Liberal Lines; The Mayor

Interesting what a google search can turn up.

She mentioned Syracuse in the article and I began so suspect that she lived in Syracuse, otherwise, she would not have been able to establish a friendship easily with the pastor and his wife.

That led me to suspect Syracuse University as her place of employment.

Sure enough......

http://www.ipcsav.org/article/false-identity/

“At the age of 28 years, Rosaria was finishing a PhD in English Literature & Cultural Studies and working as a teaching associate in the Women’s Studies Department at Syracuse University, one of the strongest such departments in the nation. “


21 posted on 02/08/2013 9:07:17 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: jongaltsr
It is also noted that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing. No scribes were ever mentioned which many illiterate (most were so)

Matthew was a Tax Collector, so it is logical to assume he was literate.

22 posted on 02/08/2013 9:08:23 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: Syncro
Daniel, there is not a 100 word limit on excerpts; in fact it is 300. Some entities are not on the excerpt list...Christianity Today is one of the ones not there

Sorry; i know it is normally 300 words for an excerpt, but when i tried to post more than 100, even without marking it as an excerpt, thew software state CT could only be 100 words.

I guess that is how much they want to get the word out about faith.

23 posted on 02/08/2013 9:12:10 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: stansblugrassgrl
Is there any sample of your music on youtube? It would be fun to hear a freepers Christ centered music. I myself, though, am one of those who love hymns.
24 posted on 02/08/2013 9:18:43 PM PST by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: stansblugrassgrl
Is there any sample of your music on youtube? It would be fun to hear a freepers Christ centered music. I myself, though, am one of those who love hymns.
25 posted on 02/08/2013 9:18:43 PM PST by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: jongaltsr
Luke was a doctor so likely knew how to write. Matthew was a tax collector...ditto. And John may have been well-educated; scripture tells us he knew the High Priest so thus may have moved in high circles.

Mark? I have no reason to believe he had no education.

26 posted on 02/08/2013 9:24:32 PM PST by what's up
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To: jongaltsr
Jesus may have existed. I can’t say - but his teachings (or whoever originated the concepts attributed to him), definitely were extremely important to mankind.

Where would those kinds or revolutionary teachings have come from then? What human could have come up with the teachings of Jesus?

Would not the uniqueness of them and their importance to mankind, be enough to verify that they were not of human origin?

And if they were of human origin, how could the information have been lost of who that person was who came up with them, when the other writings of many other great philosophers managed to survive?

27 posted on 02/08/2013 9:27:59 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: what's up

I really don’t believe that the people in those days were as uneducated and illiterate as everyone likes to make them out to be.

There’s this perception that people who lived then were just ignorant dolts. That they were illiterate, therefore stupid.

Even if they were illiterate, that does not by default equate to stupidity. It simply means illiterate.

Smart people can be illiterate if they never had the opportunity to learn to read and write.


28 posted on 02/08/2013 9:31:44 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: jongaltsr; metmom; daniel1212; One Name; stansblugrassgrl; Lee N. Field; pbear8; erod; nagelbett; ..
Ok, you've given me a LOT to work with, and you're very wrong on a good many counts. In case I miss one, I hope someone else from FR can help out. Here we go:

In the Religion forum, on a thread titled My Train Wreck Conversion..., I despised Christians. Then I somehow became one. , jongaltsr wrote:

I accepted Jesus as a matter of fact when I was a child. As I grew up to many things made me rethink his existence. To many facts are missing,, undocumented, and lacking and form of proof.

If you're referring to Jesus' mention in every December issue of Newsweek "Who was the real Jesus?" and suchlike, you must first understand the nature of historical biography in the era of 2,000 years ago.

They didn't have typewriters, and weren't on contract to fill out a 300-page book, as biographies are written today. Read any of the biographies that existed at that time: None of the historical figures that were written about included much more than a brief mention of their childhoods. It was not considered relevant to who they were.

NOT one document was EVER survived or even mentioned where as enough writings of everyone else of any importance has survived. Jesus was not even mentioned by anyone with the exception of Paul and the Disciples, and THAT only occurred over two Decades after his was supposedly crucified.

Josephus? Ever heard of Josephus, the Jewish historian who wrote history for the Romans?

As to the historical veracity of the accounts, they seem correct. They have their political milieu correct, the right people doing the right historical things at the right time. The culture and tradition of Jewish life was captured in exacting detail--a non-Jew wouldn't have finessed it so correctly. So...the accounts DO seem to have been written down or at least dictated by Jews who themselves were there, in that location, at that time.

As to Paul...he was considered BY THE DISCIPLES THEMSELVES to be a disciple. He convinced them, and that will be good enough for me.

As an aside, are you aware that (IIRC the order) Socrates taught Plato who taught Aristotle...and that Socrates didn't leave anything written behind?

Oops.

I mean, if you're going to apply your own standard of historical validation, are you not now compelled to disbelieve in the existence of Socrates? (Mr. Hemlock Drinkin', "I'm lookin' for an honest man as I carry this lantern in broad daylight" kinda guy.)

It was Plato and Aristotle that wrote about this mythical Socrates that, according to you, we know could not have existed.

Oh, by the way, his students Plato and Aristotle only left behind FOUR (4) manuscripts attesting to his existence. Only four.

And yet, historians don't question whether he ever existed.

This is hypocrisy when we have 5,200+ manuscripts detailing Christ. Oh, and they were written about as long after the fact as Socrates' vicarious writings were, too. (Just something to consider.) Shows you how biased the discipline of history has become, eh?

Even Herod’s records of crucifixions make no mention of Christ or anyone but criminals, political enemies, captured soldiers but no religious profits.

Prophets [sic].

The Jewish scholars certainly believed he existed. They still do, today--they just don't accept him. But they don't discount that he existed.

The Roman historian Josephus, as I'd mentioned, seemed to have heard of him. 'nuff said.

Nor is there any mention anywhere that Jesus EVER wrote - period. It is also noted that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing. No scribes were ever mentioned which many illiterate (most were so).

Matthew was a tax collector. Why would a tax collector be illiterate, in your view? Wouldn't that make the process a bit more difficult and prone to dispute?! Wouldn't a TAX COLLECTOR have to write down the person's name, and amount, and date paid? Oh, and province, and where born, where living?

Only Paul wrote but 1. he was not a disciple, 2. He was a Roman Citizen and well educated in Greek and other languages. His writings are prolific.

Incorrect. Paul was a disciple. Paul was HIGHLY educated--in Phillippians, he used polysyndeton and chiasm. I took three years of Spanish and cannot very easily do any of that in Spanish, and yet Paul did it in a language that was not his native Hebrew--he did it in Koine Greek! (Why don't YOU try that?) ;)

I have become closer to the fact that there is definitely a God. I see it not only in everything around me but also in the actual evolution of mankind and every creature on this planet.

We're in agreement. The evidence is quite overwhelming.

Look, I think you're an okay guy, it's just that you need to enroll in a serious Bible study at the college level, and take some Koine Greek. Like I did, back when I was sounding a lot like you. ;)

Jesus may have existed. I can’t say - but his teachings (or whoever originated the concepts attributed to him), definitely were extremely important to mankind.

Please think of it this way: There's no question he existed. The Hebrew scholars to this day aren't arguing against THAT, and they carry forth the arguments made by their forefathers.

Add to that the writings of Josephus, who noted the events in that province at that time.

Add to that the fact that the apostles scattered, reaching the entire Mediterranean world at great personal sacrifice to themselves, and over many years--the remainder of their lifetimes! How many people do THAT, if they haven't experienced some event they feel compelled to share? I'll answer that:

Look at other religions...I'll take Islam (although, pardon me, I COULD also have chosen Mormonism on this account): The apostles of Islam did the two common things men do when they're part of a false religion: (1) they use their apostleship to travel and gain access to women for sex, and (2) they use their apostleship to gain access to wealth.

N.B.: Christ's apostles...did neither.

...and that's how you can tell. Look at their actions, for that's how you will know them. Christ's apostles gained nothing but death at the hands of the militant Klingon, uh, Roman Empire. (I said that to draw a more accurate mental picture in your mind of the militocracy that Rome was.)

That they were going to be executed was not a surprise to them. They knew they would be. Bone up on your history, and you'll see that some of them were pretty well "warned off" by the authorities several times before they were cashiered. They chose to ignore the warnings.

Now, WHY would they do that? Pursue something arduous, risky, gets no "p*ssy" (to put it crudely in the colloquial), gains no wealth, takes you far from home and family, puts you amidst strange heathen peoples with their strange barbarian tongues--especially when you're a good, well-educated Jewish young man who's always been taught to more or less distance yourself from the heathen?

Must've been SOME compelling reason. Dontcha think?

As a final thought, C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel have pointed out that Jesus left no room in our minds that he could be anything other than the Son of God, a delusional madman, or a liar. (IIRC, someone help me with that line of argument, it's really facinating when you consider it.)

Always HTH on this issue!

Sauron

29 posted on 02/08/2013 9:34:06 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: metmom
Another misconception is that all the disciples came from poor backgrounds.

I just read an article that said that in those days fisherman in Galilee were fairly prosperous...middle-class at least.

I agree with you that there are a lot of misconceptions out there.

30 posted on 02/08/2013 9:37:48 PM PST by what's up
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To: jongaltsr; stansblugrassgrl; pbear8; 17th Miss Regt; nagelbett; stars & stripes forever; ...

Christianity is constituted so that warrant for its faith is based on the premise that God manifests that He is the living God, including that those who believe on Him out of a honest and contrite heart realize effects in heart and life which correspond to His promises, and though this includes trials, it also includes positive things which defy reasonable naturalistic explanations, though my experience with atheists is they simply cannot allow any possibility even for any supernatural explanations.

While there certainly can be natural reasons for claims (yet God uses nature) as well as fabrications, there are also those which testify more clearly to a supernatural cause. Watch many here: http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/Amazing/ (which does not sanction everything that Robertson says).

Add to such the thousands of classical hymns about a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus, which i think is unique in scope and depth.

As regards “that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing,” this may indicate you simply read atheistic type material. In contrast, see scholars here: http://bible.org/seriespage/did-some-disciples-take-notes-during-jesus%E2%80%99-ministry


31 posted on 02/08/2013 9:53:51 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: jongaltsr

“NOT one document was EVER survived”

This is a good point. However, not one document from this period has survived. You know Plato, Aristotle, Herodotus, etc, everything that we know of this period of time, is contained in copies that date to the latter part of the medieval ages, some thousand or so years after they were first written.

With the exception of one - scripture. The earliest complete copy we have is the Codex Vaticanus which dates to 320 AD. We have copies of various books in the Old Testament that date back to before the time of Christ.

With respect to the new - we have fragments and copies that date to the early 2nd century and mid 2nd century, some 50-100 years after Christ. This is unprecedented.

“Jesus was not even mentioned by anyone with the exception of Paul and the Disciples, and THAT only occurred over two Decades after his was supposedly crucified.”

Who is the first independent person to mention Julius Caesar, and when did he write?

“It is also noted that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing. No scribes were ever mentioned which many illiterate (most were so).”

Absence of Evidence is not evidence of absence. What evidence do you have that they could not write?

“Jesus may have existed. I can’t say - but his teachings (or whoever originated the concepts attributed to him), definitely were extremely important to mankind.”

There are secondary sources that refer to Jesus - look up Josephus, look up Suetonius. The same historians that provide the evidence we have for Julius Caesar, are the same historians that mention Christ.


32 posted on 02/08/2013 9:59:16 PM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: daniel1212

Ultimately it is always about attraction rather than promotion. By living the Word, Pastor Ken and his wife Floy showed what a Christian walk looks like. An amazing story thanks for sharing it


33 posted on 02/08/2013 10:31:36 PM PST by Nifster
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To: jongaltsr

You need to study the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth. In truth every single one of your statements is false. Too bad you haven’t taken the time to find out the truth


34 posted on 02/08/2013 10:34:47 PM PST by Nifster
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To: jongaltsr
I was an atheist who, when I first came to God, did not do it based upon the inerrancy of Scripture, for that I was not sure of. I came to Him as one who might have been in the time of Abraham, before there was any written Scripture, just He and myself. It was as though we were alone in the universe.

He revealed Himself to me in miraculous ways. He let me know that Jesus is real, and led me through my salvation experience step by step. He taught me many things that first night He saved me, and also during the next few days. It was only as time progressed, and I studied The Bible for myself that I came to understand and realize that the many things He led me through and showed me are important truths written about in The Bible.

There isn't any way that I cannot know that it was The LORD who saved me, partly because I know that I did not know, nor could have known the truths that He showed and taught me about in those first few days. The Bible is packed with information that most people, even Christians, unless they have really studied it thoroughly, are not aware of. Even the things that did not make sense to me have since come to make perfect sense to me as I studied The Bible and found and learned about them.

If you will seek Him with all of your heart He is faithful and will reveal Himself to you, as well as lead you into the truth about The Bible, and your need for a saving relationship with Him, which can come only through His Son Jesus Christ. You can come to Him without understanding that the things in The Bible are true, if you are sincere about wanting to know truth and want to follow it with all of your heart. He will show you everything that you need to know. He will meet you as you are, and where you are at.

The thing that most people are not aware of is that they are thirsting for love. Even more than knowledge, which is good and necessary, it is real and lasting love your heart is longing for. Do you want to know love? If you do, you will find it in Jesus Christ, the one who died for you on the cross, and it will last forever.

35 posted on 02/08/2013 10:38:15 PM PST by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: jongaltsr

You must have been told these things you are spouting and you have fallen for the deception. But, if you believe this due to your own research, you need learn better research skills.


36 posted on 02/08/2013 10:47:48 PM PST by Waryone
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To: Bellflower; stansblugrassgrl

Bell, I noticed that SBG didn’t get back to you. Just click on her name at the end of her post. That takes you to her profile. There is a link there to her group’s webpage, where you can listen to her sing and also see pictures etc. She has a lovely voice.


37 posted on 02/08/2013 10:55:19 PM PST by WVNan
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To: daniel1212

Wow! What wonderful testimony. Lot’s of lessons in that story.


38 posted on 02/09/2013 12:13:43 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: 17th Miss Regt

Great point!! I hd to look it up and you are RIGHT!


39 posted on 02/09/2013 12:32:33 AM PST by Ann Archy (ABORTION........the HUMAN sacrifice to the god of CONVENIENCE.)
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To: WVNan

Thank you for the info. Will do tomorrow. God bless!


40 posted on 02/09/2013 12:40:54 AM PST by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: sauron

I was going answer with a lot of what you have said but you have done a far better job than I could have thank-you and well done.

Mel


41 posted on 02/09/2013 1:30:02 AM PST by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong....)
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To: jongaltsr

There have been many fine responses to your post. But I wonder if you have heard there are newly discovered fragments of Mark that are being dated to the first century. This would place them within the lifetimes of some of the physical eyewitnesses of the ministry of Christ. See more info here:

http://www.hughhewitt.com/transcripts.aspx?id=2ae35594-18e1-4776-bd4a-ca8f77c4deb6

Also, something to think about. Let’s say there was a person called Jesus, and he taught many good things, but was killed by the religious/political establishment of his day. Now picture yourself as one of his disciples. Jesus has just been killed, and the authorities might being coming after you next. What do you do? Hide in fear? Probably.

But now let’s say something happened, something so amazing it changes you, changes you and every one of your fearful, sorrowful, hiding companions into men and women with the boldness to go about in public preaching Jesus as the savior of humanity. What would it be like, really, to see him alive again, after having seen him killed on the cross? Would it not have exactly that effect? Wouldn’t your fears melt away and give way to an irrepressible joy you could not contain? Would you not then know that death really was not the end, and you could face it with confidence?

It is one of the most difficult problems faced by those who would discredit the existence of Jesus, or failing that, the claims of his resurrection. There is simply no easy way to explain how the disciples survived that first lethal blow. There should have been nothing left but cowards running from the destruction of their failed leader, who seemed to promise messianic revolution, but was now dead and cold in the tomb.

Instead, there was bold and convinced proclamation of an impossible fact, first a dozen, then hundreds, then thousands and more, all within the space of a few short months, an explosive increase of people willing to believe, preach and die for a man who, they said, had risen from the dead.

If it was false, and the establishment wished to stop this new religion in it’s cradle, why not simply discredit the lie that there even was such a person? But that was never attempted or even questioned. Why not? Or if he was, as everyone knew, quite real, why not produce the body? The authorities had the motive and the resources to do so, and if Jesus’ body was available, they certainly would have done so. It was bad politics, for both Rome and Israel, to let this thing go unchecked. Yet they could do nothing to stop it.

The most natural explanation is that something remarkable happened to turn things around for those first beleaguered disciples, something that corroborated everything Jesus had taught them, something very like a resurrection.

Food for thought...


42 posted on 02/09/2013 1:41:53 AM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: daniel1212
I fought with everything I had. I did not want this. I did not ask for this. I counted the costs. And I did not like the math on the other side of the equal sign. But God...

Like every blessed conversion. Praise be to God for His grace and mercy.

And...it's good to know she's going to a Reformed church. ;O)

43 posted on 02/09/2013 3:03:14 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: daniel1212

It’s called “irresistible grace”.


44 posted on 02/09/2013 3:10:48 AM PST by circlecity
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To: bigheadfred

AMEN!


45 posted on 02/09/2013 3:11:49 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: jongaltsr
I accepted Jesus as a matter of fact when I was a child. As I grew up to many things made me rethink his existence.

That might be but did you ever talked to Him about the problem?

46 posted on 02/09/2013 3:12:53 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: jongaltsr
Jesus may have existed. I can’t say - but his teachings (or whoever originated the concepts attributed to him), definitely were extremely important to mankind.

Oh? In what way?

47 posted on 02/09/2013 3:19:17 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: stansblugrassgrl
I had seen Christian treat each other (and myself) incredibly poorly and decided, if that was what it meant to be a Christian, I wanted none of it.

Did you ever see Buddhists do the same thing?

48 posted on 02/09/2013 3:20:21 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: pbear8; jongaltsr
Early secular sources mentioning Jesus -

And...

Early Jewish sources mentioning Jesus; though not by name -

although you'll have to dig them out for yourself with a study bible that has good references:


NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
 
NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

49 posted on 02/09/2013 3:23:48 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Lee N. Field
This article doesn't go into it, but this had to have cost her everything she valued at that time.

Actually; it does...


I was a broken mess. I did not want to lose everything that I loved. But the voice of God sang a sanguine love song in the rubble of my world.

50 posted on 02/09/2013 3:25:54 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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