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Heresy Gets Things Done
The Imaginative Conservative ^ | John Zmirak

Posted on 02/10/2013 6:24:05 AM PST by don-o

Q: Okay, so we’ve worked our way through the uncounted millennia between the emergence of man and the first glimmers of revelation, then the six-thousand-something years it took God to gradually tease out what he had in mind for mankind. On the face of it, the whole thing seems suspicious. Why go through all these fits and starts? Why feed us a series of tantalizing hints, to spice up a steady diet of red herrings and dead ends? Why—if God is so simple, perfect, and benevolent—did he reveal himself to mankind through a series of clues it would take Sherlock Holmes to figure out? Or, if it pleases you, Father Brown?

A: Elementary, my dear godson. What we’ve derived so far from considering revelation is (a) that God is in Himself a perfect unity, but also (b) that His essence is in some sense refracted, as if one ray of light were passing through three distinct lenses, each of which is a Person. That tells us that the primitive rational insight into God’s unity was true but incomplete. Likewise the original revelation of the One God to the Israelites. Within the very essence of God is a nexus of relationships, which He revealed is one of love between a Father, a Son, and a Spirit Who “proceeds” from their interaction. Already, then, there’s something embedded in the very essence of things that tests our brains till they bleed. Add in the intellectual jiu-jitsu required to account for Christ’s divine and human natures—a doctrine that’ll tackle us later—and it almost seems as if God’s purpose all along in revealing Himself to man was to provoke complex heresies, interminable Church councils, and impenetrable tomes in Greek and Latin devoted to explaining the inexplicable.

No wonder so many different sects emerged over the centuries, each devoted to seizing one piece of each of these mysteries and making sure it wasn’t forgotten—at the cost of denying something else of equal importance. Remember the joke about the blind men describing the elephant? One grabs the trunk and declares it a snake, the next the leg and calls it a tree, et cetera? That joke was first told at the Council of Chalcedon by Bishop Pachasinus of Lilybaeum to Anatolius, patriarch of Constantinople.


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Theology
KEYWORDS:
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How do we come to know what we believe we know and know we believe?

Disclaimer: As an Orthodox Christian, I would not agree with all the detail (procession, etc) but the broad strokes are rich and thought provoking.

1 posted on 02/10/2013 6:24:08 AM PST by don-o
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To: don-o
“Add in the intellectual jiu-jitsu required to account for Christ’s divine and human natures—a doctrine that’ll tackle us later—and it almost seems as if God’s purpose all along in revealing Himself to man was to provoke complex heresies, interminable Church councils, and impenetrable tomes in Greek and Latin devoted to explaining the inexplicable.”

The message Jesus and his apostles preached required no “intellectual jiu-jitsu” and I dare say any that does is a corruption of that message.
The author is babbling nonsense.

2 posted on 02/10/2013 6:57:41 AM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
The message Jesus and his apostles preached required no “intellectual jiu-jitsu” and I dare say any that does is a corruption of that message.

The author is babbling nonsense.

Exactly...And what that author spews is the biggest heresy of all; that only a select few intellectuals can actually know what God says...

3 posted on 02/10/2013 7:08:17 AM PST by Iscool (I love animals...barbequed, fried, grilled, stewed,,,,)
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To: count-your-change
The message Jesus and his apostles preached required no “intellectual jiu-jitsu” and I dare say any that does is a corruption of that message.

That is necessarily the conclusion that one draws when the first thousand years of church history is blithely dismissed.

4 posted on 02/10/2013 7:21:53 AM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: Iscool

I read it all and missed that part.


5 posted on 02/10/2013 7:25:51 AM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: don-o
Not “blithely dismissed” at all but understood in the light of Jesus’ illustration of how the field would be oversown with weeds that would appear similar to the wheat until it began to produce fruit. And what fruitage those weeds have produced!

It takes no Greek philosophers with cleverly worded formulas with their absurd contradictions of Scripture or this silly
“intellectual jiu-jitsu” to understand Jesus’ message.

But anything on a blog to sell a book, I guess.

6 posted on 02/10/2013 9:15:32 AM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: don-o

An interesting way to look at it, thanks.


7 posted on 02/10/2013 9:33:05 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: don-o

I think just from reading about it we can see that men can turn into animals instead of the other way around.

And all we have to do is look at what is happening to this nation to see that men can not deal with having to much at one time, they go nuts.


8 posted on 02/10/2013 9:43:46 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: Iscool
A further example of the tripe from this blog:

“Our theologians used the best tool at hand, Greek philosophy, to tease out the real-world implications of what God had told us about Himself, to figure out how we should pray and to whom.”

All Christians had to do was to recall Jesus’ words about who God was and when and how and to whom to pray. He was pretty clear without resort to the confused musings of the philosophers.

9 posted on 02/10/2013 10:08:29 AM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
All Christians had to do was to recall Jesus’ words

Pretty easy to say in 2013. Not so easy in 213. All of the heretics had Scripture to back their heresy. They still do.

10 posted on 02/10/2013 10:36:17 AM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: don-o
An argument that the Scriptures are of no value in determining correct teachings? The author made the statement that Greek philosophy was the best tool at hand for understanding who God is and prayer.

You've surely read some Greek philosophy, maybe a bit of Philo, so if you agree please tell me what Greek philosophy would have been a help c.213 in understanding Matthew 6:5-16 or John chapter 17.

The true “heretics” have never been satisfied with the Scriptures, hence the Gnostics, the pseudo Gospels and reliance on pagan philosophies and traditions of men. Both Jesus and Paul warned of the inroads that were and would be made so why are their words on the subject so “blithely dismissed”?

11 posted on 02/10/2013 11:03:18 AM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change; don-o
I suspect you're putting an unnecessarily negative slant on Zmirak's piece. God's nature is a pool simple enough for a lamb to wade in and enjoy, and deep and wild enough to drown a mammoth. God has all these aspects and more. Surely when the Creator said, "Love me with your whole mind," he was at least implying we ought to think about Him to the furthest extent that mind can take us.

Or why did He give us minds and say, "Love me with them"?

Not that we'll fathom Him, but that we will find ever deeper and wider dimensions and more brilliant intricacies of Him

"...whose beauty is past change:
Praise him."

12 posted on 02/10/2013 12:18:44 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("And a mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels. "- Walt Whitman)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
You say: “I suspect you're putting an unnecessarily negative slant on Zmirak’s piece.”

But you fail to really address his comments or how I'm being “unnecessarily negative”.

A simply question is whether pagan Greek philosophy really was, as the author asserts, was the best way at hand to explain God and prayer.

Why not speak to that instead of mammoths and lambs?

13 posted on 02/10/2013 1:03:08 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
All Christians had to do was to recall Jesus’ words about who God was and when and how and to whom to pray. He was pretty clear without resort to the confused musings of the philosophers.

Yes...In spite of the fact that God warns us about philosophers and man's wisdom, they claim that those very things are what's needed to know what God says...God says NO...

14 posted on 02/10/2013 4:25:51 PM PST by Iscool (I love animals...barbequed, fried, grilled, stewed,,,,)
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To: don-o
Pretty easy to say in 2013. Not so easy in 213. All of the heretics had Scripture to back their heresy. They still do.

That the backwardness of it...Just as this piece points out, Catholics rely on philosophers to understand and teach the words of God...

The words of God were kept hidden from the lay people and the lesser of the priesthood of the early Catholic religion so they couldn't see what God said...

And those that did/do get their hands on some scripture and believed it, you call heretics...The Apostle Paul had the same problem...

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 posted on 02/10/2013 4:41:52 PM PST by Iscool (I love animals...barbequed, fried, grilled, stewed,,,,)
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To: Iscool

There seems to be a sudden silence on the thread. What happened? Maybe they’re off reading the Greek philosophers they put so much trust into.

Was it the comments about human philosophies I wonder.


16 posted on 02/10/2013 4:44:47 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change

I can’t figure out what to say to those who refuse to acknowledge the patrimony of the Christian faith that is contained in the seven Ecumenical Councils. If all I get is protest that those are only the words of men, I find to place to engage that.

I will ask a question: If the Greek language , Greek concepts and Greek philosophy is not fit to express the faith, then what is? Recall how Paul engaged that culture on Mars Hill.


17 posted on 02/10/2013 5:00:24 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: count-your-change; don-o
I tried (too obscurely!) a metaphor that didn't quite make it. OK (praying your patience) I'll start again.

Greek philosophy is unavoidable when you've got a Greek New Testament in one hand and a Koine lexicon in the other. In a language with such a vast body of text behind it, every word is allusive to those words; every word a link to hypertext.

I'm not telling you anything radical or new. That's just the way language works: the meaning of key words of the NT (like "Logos" and "Ousios") is understood by the way in which they were used in a Hellenistic social and intellectual context, especially by their best speakers/writers, the poets and philosophers.

"Pagan" Greek philosophy, recast in the discourse of Christian believers, becomes Christian Greek philosophy. It is an Areopagus moment: Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being". as certain also of your own poets have said " For we are also his offspring."

So pagan Greek poets’ words, too, are in the Word.

You are always going to be in dialogue with these Greek philosophers if you are pondering what NT words mean. So, my friend, if you are reading Biblical (Koine) Greek, you are already, in a sense, "speaking with Aristotle." The words were shaped by Hellenic clusters of ideas, years before they flowed from the pen of John the Evangelist, let alone the 300+ bishops of Nicaea, who came from three continents, and all worshipped one Lord Jesus Christ, in more or less the language of Epimenides and Aratus.

Read John 1:1. If you try to figure out the implications of θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, you're already in dialogue with Greek metaphysics.

All Christians, whether they realize it or not, are deeply indebted to that.

Lambs and mammoths too.

:o)

18 posted on 02/10/2013 6:01:05 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("And a mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels. "- Walt Whitman)
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To: don-o
Darlin', I posted mine before I read yours. We both ended up with Paul on Mars Hill.

High five!

19 posted on 02/10/2013 6:09:26 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("And a mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels. "- Walt Whitman)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Full points + a Hershey’s with Almonds. xoxoxo


20 posted on 02/10/2013 6:22:32 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
"I'm not telling you anything radical or new. That's just the way language works: the meaning of key words of the NT (like "Logos" and "Ousios") is understood by the way in which they were used in a Hellenistic social and intellectual context, especially by their best speakers/writers, the poets and philosophers."

Who told you that? Quite to the contrary. For example when Peter used the term "Hades" as a Greek quivalent of the Hebrew "Sheol"(Ps. 16:10) in Acts 2:25-28 "Hades" was being used as simply the abode of the dead without all the philosophical trappings of classical Greek thought.

The same is true of the term "Logos" as John used it in John 1:1. John used "Logos" in a very restricted sense as is obvious from the rest of his gospel but the so-called "higher critics" would have us believe that John's usage was in some way reflective of the Greek philosophers.

They used "Logos" in the sense of reason or an ordering principle of the universe. John used the term for the prehuman Christ as a representive of his father, a spokesman.

"Read John 1:1. If you try to figure out the implications of θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, you're already in dialogue with Greek metaphysics."

Not so since John wrote under the influence of the holy spirit and not according to the hash of Greek metaphysical philosophy prevalent in his own day. It's not surprising that men steeped in the learning of the day would attempt to explain Christianity in the language of pagan Greek philosophy in order to make one palatable to the other.

"Pagan" Greek philosophy, recast in the discourse of Christian believers, becomes Christian Greek philosophy"

Really? Just consider for a moment the confusion wrought in the Bible's use of the terms Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and how these words are translated or the how the term soul is treated.

Attempting to hammer the teachings of Scripture into the shape of pagan Greek philosophy has produced such "kerosene in wine" teachings as purgatory and confusion over what the resurrection is.

"Read John 1:1. If you try to figure out the implications of θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, you're already in dialogue with Greek metaphysics."

Paul called the wisdom of the world folishness. "... It is an Areopagus moment: Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being". as certain also of your own poets have said " For we are also his offspring."

These Stoics and other Greek philosophers ridiculed Paul since he preached Christ and the resurrection of the dead. These Athenians owed Paul a debt as some became believers and are named near the end of Acts chapter 17.

21 posted on 02/10/2013 7:57:43 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: don-o

What part of pagan Greek philosophy expresses the Christian faith?

“Recall how Paul engaged that culture on Mars Hill.”

Indeed he appealed to what they believed just as Jesus did with the Samaritan woman when he said she worshipped in ignorance but worship of God must be done in spirit and truth.
That culture was not explaining truth to Paul but just the reverse. That culture considered Paul either mad or a chattering fool because of their concepts and philosophies.
So how would they express the faith?

Who said anything about the Greek language being “not fit”?


22 posted on 02/10/2013 8:42:25 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
But that's OK. I didn't say that Paul adopted Greek philosophy tout court: I just said he couldn't avoid it, since he was speaking Greek. The words' meanings are adapted, modified, altered, revolutionized in contact with Holy Spirit-inspired thought.

Same thing if one is spewaking N ahuatl or Mandarin. You are using words that have a background. A hypertext. Even if you distinguish what you mean by it --- if you mean something unique ---you're culturally hypertexting.

Like I said: this is nothin' new.

Jesus Christ died for my sins, not Aristotle.

23 posted on 02/11/2013 3:07:31 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("And a mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels. "- Walt Whitman)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

This is what you did say:

“Pagan” Greek philosophy, recast in the discourse of Christian believers, becomes Christian Greek philosophy”.


24 posted on 02/11/2013 5:07:06 AM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
And BTW, I apologize to you if I have misunderstood the kernel of your argument. I am rushing through things these days, and may not have done justice to your main point.

In any case, I do not believe in "attempting to hammer the teachings of Scripture into the shape of pagan Greek philosophy," as you very aptly put it. That would be a big mistake. I am just pointing out that the knowledge we have about God via Jesus, the perfect Word, is transmitted through a Greek New Testament, which is necessarily in dialogue with Greek thought. That "dialogue" sometimes means that the writers have to distinguish themselves FROM Greek philosophical concepts.

Ironically, the intent of some of the Greek-language Scriptures (from Maccabees to the Epistles) was to reduce the influence of Hellenism and Hellenistic Judaism... paradoxically using Greek language to refine, redefine, or refute Greek concepts.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss these things. I beg your pardon if I have not dealt adequately with the good thjings you wrote. I am out digging new garden beds and planting garlic today, if the weather holds. So I'll be away fromt he computer, mostly.

Tagline is for you.

25 posted on 02/11/2013 5:16:57 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you and keep you, may He turn to you His countenance and give you peace.)
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To: don-o
How do we come to know what we believe we know and know we believe?

Simple. It's the work of God. He is not a God of confusion. He provides. Through faith in Him, He provides salvation. By studying His Word, He continues His work in us to further sanctify us.

Faith and belief are used by the same word in Biblical Greek (PISTIS). Wisdom (SOPHIA) and knowledge (GNOSIS) and an outward knowledge from our heart (EPIGNOSIS) is discernible from these other terms.

1Co 12:8

(8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

26 posted on 02/11/2013 6:48:53 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: don-o; Art in Idaho; NewCenturions; Sioux-san; Youaskedforit; KirbDog; TeĆ³filo; mojo114; malkee; ..
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

27 posted on 02/11/2013 6:52:09 AM PST by narses
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To: Mrs. Don-o

You’re planting garlic? All is forgiven if there ever was anything outstanding. Cheers!


28 posted on 02/11/2013 7:06:27 AM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: Iscool; count-your-change; don-o
The author is babbling nonsense.

Exactly...And what that author spews is the biggest heresy of all; that only a select few intellectuals can actually know what God says...

The true beauty of the Catholic Church is that she has more layers than and onion.

1) Same may simple choose to attend on Sundays and holidays.

2)Others enjoy the simple contemplative life of a nun or monk.

3) Others service to others such a s Mother Teresa and the Jesuits teaching.

4) Others such as Augustine and Thomas of Aquinas the philosophical.

There is room for all, and all who seek to live in full communion with Jesus and his Church are welcome.

29 posted on 02/11/2013 7:33:30 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: Cvengr
Simple. It's the work of God. He is not a God of confusion. He provides. Through faith in Him, He provides salvation. By studying His Word, He continues His work in us to further sanctify us.

Lutherans originally had 5 sacraments now they have three (IIRC)

Some evangelicals believe in infant baptism, others adult only.

Some baptists are ordaining women and allowing homosexual marriage, others refuse.

Lutherans and Church of England believe in Consubstantiation, other Protestants don't believe in the real presence at all.

All of the above claim that they have arrived at these beliefs through the study of the Word.

Which ones are wrong and why?

30 posted on 02/11/2013 7:49:55 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

I will be interested to see if any sola believers will engage on the confusion that belief produces.


31 posted on 02/11/2013 8:02:59 AM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: verga

“Which ones are wrong and why?”

Is that a question you really want to dicuss or simply a throw a way?


32 posted on 02/11/2013 8:18:37 AM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
Is that a question you really want to dicuss or simply a throw a way?

The idea is to cause those individuals not in full Communion with The Catholic Church to wonder is "Sola Scritpura" really true and to wonder if Christ really preached unity why there are so many denominations.

33 posted on 02/11/2013 8:41:49 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

Did not Christ also prophesy that many would come on the basis of his name and many merely claiming to be his followers?

Jesus did give a means of determining who was in unity with him and thus enjoy internal unity also.


34 posted on 02/11/2013 11:00:45 AM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
Did not Christ also prophesy that many would come on the basis of his name and many merely claiming to be his followers?

He also stated there would be false prophets making utterances sweet to the ear.

Christ wants us to uncomfortable in our sin, not go to a place of worship that has good fellowship or great music.

35 posted on 02/11/2013 11:31:40 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: don-o
I will be interested to see if any sola believers will engage on the confusion that belief produces.

That's really easy...Like the Catholic religion, they add to or take away from the words of God...

36 posted on 02/11/2013 4:28:54 PM PST by Iscool (I love animals...barbequed, fried, grilled, stewed,,,,)
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To: verga
Christ wants us to uncomfortable in our sin, not go to a place of worship that has good fellowship or great music.

You give a pretty good example right there...

Church is a place for healing...We go to worship and to get some spiritual food for our soul (and I don't mean eating a cracker) and to encourage our brothers and sisters and receive the same encouragement from them...

Jesus wants us to be COMFORTABLE in knowing we have a Savior who can and will forgive us of our sins and provide comfort for our sinning souls...

Can you show us in the bible where it says we are to reject good uplifting music that magnifies God??? Or where the bible says we are to forsake fellowship with our brothers and sisters in the Lord??? You can't...

I can show you scriptures that say just the opposite...It's up to you to believe them or not and accept them or not...

37 posted on 02/11/2013 4:47:36 PM PST by Iscool (I love animals...barbequed, fried, grilled, stewed,,,,)
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To: Iscool

So “they” all do it, but your sect alone does not. Is that what you say? Care to identify?


38 posted on 02/11/2013 5:07:57 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: verga

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Studying Scripture is one method of intaking the Word of God, but without the work of God the Holy Spirit in our human spirit, we do not have our soul sanctified.

Study of Scripture independent of God the Holy Spirit is simply academia and is insufficient to sanctify the soul. It even scars the soul with more sinful tendencies towards legalism or asceticism, or liberalism in antinomianism.

Study of Scripture through faith in Christ, while in fellowship with God the Holy Spirit allows Him to continue His work in us. It is education, as opposed to academics. Education teaches us how to think, whereas academics are simply studies of rational thinking.


39 posted on 02/11/2013 6:13:58 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: don-o

1Co 14:33
(33) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Rom 14:23 .... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Joh 6:29
(29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


40 posted on 02/11/2013 6:34:55 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Iscool
Can you show us in the bible where it says we are to reject good uplifting music that magnifies God??? Or where the bible says we are to forsake fellowship with our brothers and sisters in the Lord??? You can't...

Have some one explain this to you. I said if you go ONLY for the fellowship or the music.

41 posted on 02/11/2013 6:46:53 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: Cvengr; verga

OK. How do those verses apply to post 30?


42 posted on 02/11/2013 6:50:54 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: don-o

They are not of the same thinking as post 30.


43 posted on 02/11/2013 6:59:40 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

Why did you post those three Bible verses?


44 posted on 02/11/2013 7:08:43 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: don-o

Read post 31, then the 3 verses.

The believing/faith God places in us does not confuse.

He is immutable.


45 posted on 02/11/2013 7:44:46 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: don-o

Proverbs 25:2
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.


46 posted on 02/11/2013 8:04:01 PM PST by gitmo ( If your theology doesn't become your biography it's useless.)
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To: verga

When the RCC returns to God through faith in Christ, it might have an opportunity to lead more believers. Until that time, while many members of the RCC are also members of the Catholic Church, the RCC falls short of the Catholic Church.


47 posted on 02/12/2013 4:23:13 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: verga
Have some one explain this to you. I said if you go ONLY for the fellowship or the music.

How 'bout you explain it because that IS NOT what you said...This is what you said...

Christ wants us to uncomfortable in our sin, not go to a place of worship that has good fellowship or great music.

48 posted on 02/12/2013 4:47:55 AM PST by Iscool (I love animals...barbequed, fried, grilled, stewed,,,,)
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To: don-o
So "they" all do it, but your sect alone does not. Is that what you say? Care to identify?

Sure...All denominations who add to or take away from the words of God...You guys know who you are...

49 posted on 02/12/2013 4:55:25 AM PST by Iscool (I love animals...barbequed, fried, grilled, stewed,,,,)
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To: Cvengr
When the RCC returns to God through faith in Christ,

You are Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the Gates of Hell will never prevail against it.

While it is true that some Catholics have left Christ, the Church has never deviated one iota.

50 posted on 02/12/2013 5:03:50 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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