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Cardinal Mahony voting for a new pope rankles some Catholics
Myrtle Beach Online ^ | 2/11/2013 | TERESA WATANABE AND RICHARD WINTON

Posted on 02/11/2013 9:07:51 PM PST by Alex Murphy

LOS ANGELES -- Nearly two weeks ago, Los Angeles Archbishop Jose Gomez announced he had removed Cardinal Roger Mahony from all public duties amid revelations that he plotted to conceal child molestation by priests from law enforcement.

But Mahony on Monday found himself back at the center of church business, as one of 117 cardinals who will elect a successor to Pope Benedict XVI.

Mahony was quick to weigh in on the papal news - posting a statement on his online blog at 8:38 a.m. PDT, two hours before the archdiocese announced that Gomez would issue his own remarks at the midday Mass at the downtown Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels.

In the posting, Mahony called Benedict an "extraordinary" successor to St. Peter and that he intended to participate in choosing the next pontiff.

"I look forward to traveling to Rome soon to help thank Pope Benedict XVI for his gifted service to the Church, and to participate in the Conclave to elect his successor," Mahony wrote.

Benedict's unexpected decision to step down created a seemingly awkward situation in the Los Angeles Archdiocese, which is reeling over newly released documents showing how church leaders handled the abuse cases. Documents show that Mahony and Bishop Thomas Curry worked to shield abusers from police. Both have since issued detailed apologies.

Gomez wrote in a letter to parishioners last month that the priest files were "brutal and painful reading. The behavior described in these files is terribly sad and evil. There is no excuse, no explaining away what happened to these children."

Gomez wrote that Mahony, his predecessor as leader of the archdiocese, "has expressed his sorrow for his failure to fully protect young people entrusted to his care. Effective immediately, I have informed Cardinal Mahony that he will no longer have any administrative or public duties." A church spokesman later clarified that Mahony remained a priest "in good standing" and that he maintained all his powers as a cardinal.

Mahony is one of 11 U.S. cardinals who will vote for the next pope.

Father Thomas Rausch of Loyola Marymount University said Mahony has no choice in the matter: Church law requires him to vote, along with all cardinals under age 80, he said.

"It is a sacred responsibility of every cardinal of the church who is able to attend the conclave to vote," said Tod Tamberg, archdiocese spokesman.

Still, Mahony's role in selecting a pope drew mixed reactions among Catholics in Southern California.

Manuel Vega, a retired Oxnard police officer who as an altar boy was molested from the age of 12 to 15 by Father Fidencio Silva, said Mahony would bring shame on the Catholic Church by going to Rome to vote.

"Mahony is going without clean hands. His hands are dirty ... from covering up years of sexual abuse. How can he be part of the conclave?" Vega asked.

Other Catholics said they were pleased that Mahony would be voting. They said they hoped that he would bring a more liberal and American point of view to the conclave, which will be dominated by the conservative cardinals whom Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have appointed over the last three decades.

Jane Argento, a parishioner at Holy Family Church in South Pasadena, said she was livid at Mahony when she read about his actions after the archdiocese's release of sex abuse documents. But she said the relatively liberal Mahony reflected her own Catholic convictions about larger roles for women in the church, among other issues. Mahony, she said, was the architect of a pastoral associate program in Los Angeles that had trained several women to run parishes, including her own.

"I'm relieved that Mahony is going," Argento said. "Frankly, it's one more vote for a more progressive church."

Larry Loughlin, 77, a parishioner and social worker, said it was reasonable that Mahony vote, given church rules, and that he was not the only cardinal accused of failing to remove predatory priests from churches and schools. Others include Cardinal Justin Regali, who was accused of ignoring evidence of sex abuse, including rape, in the Philadelphia archdiocese before retiring in 2011.

"Mahony is not the only cardinal to be accused of protecting priests; it is a worldwide crisis," Loughlin said.

Parishioners who attended Monday's midday Mass at the downtown cathedral said they were saddened by news of Benedict's resignation but hailed it as a chance to renew a church still suffering from the repercussions of the abuse scandals. The scandals also appeared to be on the mind of Gomez, who celebrated the Mass and called for prayer "for anyone who has been hurt by a member of the church" and for "the healing for wounds and restoration of trust."

Some parishioners took a forgiving attitude toward the cardinal.

"We all have our faults," said Charles Drees, who attended the Mass. "God bless Cardinal Mahony."

Rausch said he hoped that Mahony would bring to the conclave a deeper understanding of the American church and its more collaborative working style. The Los Angeles cardinal demonstrated that leadership style in calling together all parishes in Southern California to help set archdiocesan priorities in a three-year process, completed in 2003, Rausch said.

"What I'd hope the cardinal would bring is a less top-down, more consultative style of church governance," Rausch said. "The governance of the church in Rome under John Paul II and Benedict has not been as collegial. They exercise authority from the top."

Father Thomas Reese of Georgetown University's Woodstock Theological Center said he did not believe that Mahony's troubles in Los Angeles would diminish his influence in Rome, where his one vote would carry as much weight as any other cardinal's. He said he hoped Mahony would make sure that discussions about the next pontiff include a full understanding of the sex abuse crisis and a greater sensitivity to Latin America and immigrant issues.

Although more than 40 percent of all Catholics live in Latin America, Rausch said that 63 percent of the cardinals who will elect the next pope are from Europe and North America. The majority of them were appointed by Benedict, he said.

In his remarks at Monday's Mass, Gomez hailed Benedict's decision, calling it a "beautiful" act of humility.

"This is the act of a saint, who thinks not about himself but only about the will of God and the good of God's people," Gomez said.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics
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....Mahony on Monday found himself back at the center of church business, as one of 117 cardinals who will elect a successor to Pope Benedict XVI....Father Thomas Rausch of Loyola Marymount University said Mahony has no choice in the matter: Church law requires him to vote, along with all cardinals under age 80, he said. "It is a sacred responsibility of every cardinal of the church who is able to attend the conclave to vote," said Tod Tamberg, archdiocese spokesman.
1 posted on 02/11/2013 9:07:54 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
Speaking of Pope Benedict:

**In his remarks at Monday's Mass, Gomez hailed Benedict's decision, calling it a "beautiful" act of humility. "This is the act of a saint, who thinks not about himself but only about the will of God and the good of God's people," Gomez said.**

2 posted on 02/11/2013 9:12:03 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Alex Murphy

Makes me want to puke.


3 posted on 02/11/2013 9:37:41 PM PST by mimaw
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To: Alex Murphy
"I'm relieved that Mahony is going," Argento said. "Frankly, it's one more vote for a more progressive church." Imagine that. The Progressive wing just so happens to be the ones involved in covering up abuse.
4 posted on 02/11/2013 9:38:02 PM PST by Shadow44
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To: Alex Murphy
"I'm relieved that Mahony is going," Argento said. "Frankly, it's one more vote for a more progressive church."

IOW, protecting perverts AND being a lousy bishop is okay, as long as you're a liberal.

Just a hunch, but I'm guessing she voted for Clinton, Obama, Feinstein, and Boxer.

5 posted on 02/11/2013 9:41:17 PM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Alex Murphy
Gomez wrote in a letter to parishioners last month that the priest files were "brutal and painful reading. The behavior described in these files is terribly sad and evil. There is no excuse, no explaining away what happened to these children."

Nowhere in this article does it mention that these are "alleged" cases. It is clear that many of these cases did happen and it is clear that many of them did not.

6 posted on 02/11/2013 9:41:37 PM PST by oldbrowser (They are marxists, don't call them democrats)
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To: Alex Murphy

Mahony belongs in jail. Remember he is also the creep who led the illegal Mexicans in their march against Prop 187 years ago, and also against Arizona’s SB1070 in 2010. He is an enemy of America.


7 posted on 02/11/2013 9:44:17 PM PST by montag813
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To: Alex Murphy

Mahony belongs in jail. Remember he is also the creep who led the illegal Mexicans in their march against Prop 187 years ago, and also against Arizona’s SB1070 in 2010. He is an enemy of America.


8 posted on 02/11/2013 9:44:17 PM PST by montag813
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To: montag813

I think he belongs in jail too. And NOT voting. So sorry he gets to. Rankled in LA.


9 posted on 02/11/2013 9:47:12 PM PST by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
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To: Salvation

It’s and act of abandonment and cowardice, unfortunate from a man who has done so many wonderful and intelligent things over the years.


10 posted on 02/11/2013 10:41:20 PM PST by nickcarraway
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To: Alex Murphy; metmom
"We all have our faults," said Charles Drees, who attended the Mass. "God bless Cardinal Mahony."

I cannot imagine the Apostle Paul saying this about a bishop over one of the churches he founded in the first century. If he insisted that a member of the church at Corinth, who had sexual relations with his father's wife (most probably NOT his own mother, but a stepmother), be cast out of the church if he refused to repent and desist from that sin, then what kind of reaction would Paul have had to the very leaders of the church not only molesting and raping little kids but helping each other get away with it and cover it up for decades???!!!

I'm sorry, but waving your hand and saying, "Meh, we all have our faults.", is sickening to me. Sure we have our faults and none of us is sinless, but, come on! We're talking about one of the most disturbing and horrendous acts of depravity a person could commit - even hardened criminals in prison detest such a person. ALL of us are repulsed by it and believe a person found guilty of such a crime deserves the harshest punishment they can get. What's wrong with people? Some leaders of your religion are involved in this gross sin that destroys children's lives and it's brushed away as if it was no worse than getting a speeding ticket?

I sincerely hope whoever gets the crown will lay down the hammer on this whole deplorable saga and put some teeth behind the bark this time. Anything less will further diminish the brand. There may not BE a next time.

11 posted on 02/11/2013 11:11:37 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Why this man is still a priest, much less a Cardinal of the church, I will not understand. He should have been defrocked LONG ago, he is a depraved individual, who encourages others to do the same.


12 posted on 02/11/2013 11:25:44 PM PST by kingu (Everything starts with slashing the size and scope of the federal government.)
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To: Alex Murphy
....Mahony on Monday found himself back at the center of church business, as one of 117 cardinals who will elect a successor to Pope Benedict XVI....Father Thomas Rausch of Loyola Marymount University said Mahony has no choice in the matter: Church law requires him to vote, along with all cardinals under age 80, he said. "It is a sacred responsibility of every cardinal of the church who is able to attend the conclave to vote," said Tod Tamberg, archdiocese spokesman.

1 Corinthians 5:1-13

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

End of story.

13 posted on 02/12/2013 4:20:11 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Alex Murphy
A church spokesman later clarified that Mahony remained a priest "in good standing" and that he maintained all his powers as a cardinal.

For real?!?!

14 posted on 02/12/2013 4:27:29 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: mimaw

Speakers saying that Mahony will bring a liberal vote to Rome—a liberal California vote —are frightening.

Last thing the Church needs is more liberalism from a man who has hidden homosexuality and wants women to be running parish’s.

It’s frightening, and it’s no wonder so many are leaving the Church for non-denominational services.


15 posted on 02/12/2013 5:01:58 AM PST by Venturer
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To: metmom
As shocking as it may sound, metmom, Mahony has canonical rights like every other Catholic and he cannot be punished before he has been found liable in a court of canon law.

Americans, of all people, should be able to understand the notion of due process.

16 posted on 02/12/2013 5:05:34 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake; metmom
Americans, of all people, should be able to understand the notion of due process.

Due process?

You mean like the court order the LA Diocese is currently violating after it fought for 6 years to prevent the release of documents related to child sex abuse under a settlement with victims?

When the do the victims get due process?

And the church wonders why society thinks it's a joke!
17 posted on 02/12/2013 5:31:28 AM PST by TSgt (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.)
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To: TSgt
And the church wonders why society thinks it's a joke!

You aren't society.

18 posted on 02/12/2013 5:40:22 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

Care to respond to the factual components of my post or is it just easier to attack me?

She the LA Diocese comply with the court order especially considering this is a settlement they agreed to?


19 posted on 02/12/2013 5:48:38 AM PST by TSgt (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.)
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To: TSgt
When the do the victims get due process?

The victims were and are free to pursue criminal complaints in a court of law. While statutes of limitations have run out in many cases, there are other criminal cases they could pursue.

They have chosen to negotiate for cash instead.

Their due process remains intact.

To my knowledge, none of the victims have sought recourse to canonical courts to have Mahony punished and to take away his cardinalate. Then again, there are no cash damages in that.

20 posted on 02/12/2013 5:54:44 AM PST by wideawake
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To: TSgt; St_Thomas_Aquinas
She the LA Diocese comply with the court order especially considering this is a settlement they agreed to?

TSgt is muddying the waters.

The settlement that was agreed to involved redaction.

The complainants had one interpretation of the settlement's redaction provisions, and the diocese had another.

The complainants sued to enforce their redaction interpretation and the diocese has appealed.

That legal process is ongoing.

TSgt apparently believes that the diocese of LA, alone among all entities in the US, should not have the right to appeal judgments.

21 posted on 02/12/2013 6:07:18 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake
...there are no cash damages in that.

Wow! So that's their only motivation huh? You're a piece of work!
22 posted on 02/12/2013 6:42:51 AM PST by TSgt (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.)
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To: wideawake

Sometimes on FR it’s “Punishment first, then trial.”

I thank God for Pope Benedict and for Archbishop Gomez.


23 posted on 02/12/2013 6:44:17 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: wideawake

WRONG!

The files the church released are incomplete and many are unaccounted for. In addition, on many documents the names of church supervisors informed of abuse allegations were redacted by the archdiocese, in violation of a judge’s order.

This isn’t due process, this is bait and switch and coverup.


24 posted on 02/12/2013 6:45:29 AM PST by TSgt (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.)
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To: Venturer
It’s frightening, and it’s no wonder so many are leaving the Church for non-denominational services.

I have never known a practicing Catholic who left the Church for "nondenominational" (there is no such thing) services.

I have known quite a few nominal, non-practicing Catholics who have left the Church for "nondenominational" services - and it has been for one reason: they starting dating or got married to men or women who were devout, churchgoing members of those congregations.

The abuse scandal is a convenient excuse for those who haven't darkened a parish door in decades to suddenly wax self-righteous about their neglect of the Third Commandment.

25 posted on 02/12/2013 6:46:51 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake; St_Thomas_Aquinas

The court ordered that the documents be released without redactions.

The Archdiocese of Los Angeles fought for six years all the way to the State Supreme Court to block the release of the documents. Early in January, Judge Emilie H. Elias overturned a previous decision, and ordered the archdiocese to lift the redactions of the names of certain kinds of officials: archbishops and bishops, vicars for clergy members and directors of treatment facilities, as well as pastors, “church agents” or employees who had supervisory responsibility over an accused priest and were made aware of complaints or suspicions about him.

The names of supervisors, like pastors in parishes or the supervisors of religious orders, are missing from the released documents.


26 posted on 02/12/2013 6:48:31 AM PST by TSgt (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.)
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To: wideawake; St_Thomas_Aquinas
Remember "The Rules":

Rule One: "Rome" is the locus of all evil in the Universe.
Rule Two: In case of doubt, see Rule One.
Conclusion: "Rome" must be destroyed. All else is irrelevant.

I am not a mind reader; I do not and cannot know what other folks are thinking, or how they are motivated, unless they explicitly tell me.

I find, however, that I can predict the actions and statements of some folks accurately if I assume that they are motivated by and act according to "The Rules" above.

Again, I make no claims as to their actual beliefs or state of mind. I merely point out a useful tool for predicting behaviour.

27 posted on 02/12/2013 6:50:26 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: TSgt
Wow! So that's their only motivation huh? You're a piece of work!

Do you really not understand how class actions work?

Class action suits are first, last and always about money.

They are assembled by lawyers whose job is track down, recruit and coordinate litigation - and the way they are able to do this is by offering plaintiffs the prospect of a handsome cash payout.

Don't tell me you actually think all this is about justice.

28 posted on 02/12/2013 7:01:59 AM PST by wideawake
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To: TSgt
The files the church released are incomplete and many are unaccounted for.

That is the plaintiffs' claim.

29 posted on 02/12/2013 7:03:44 AM PST by wideawake
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To: TSgt
The court ordered that the documents be released without redactions.

On January 31st the court so ordered. The deadline is February 22nd.

30 posted on 02/12/2013 7:11:40 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake

It’s obvious you don’t care about the victims and neither does the church.


31 posted on 02/12/2013 7:12:44 AM PST by TSgt (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.)
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To: kingu

I lived in California more than 20 years ago, and even then, I had no use for Mahony.

He would appear before TV cameras and urge people to vote for democrats, and was at the forefront of every liberal issue of the day, including hostility towards the Second Amendment.

I remember him flying arround L.A. in his private helicopter.

He should have been given the boot a long time ago.


32 posted on 02/12/2013 7:13:32 AM PST by july4thfreedomfoundation (November 6, 2012.....A day that will live in infamy!)
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To: TSgt
It’s obvious you don’t care about the victims and neither does the church.

I care about people who were actually victimized, not people who are in it for the money.

Your lack of knowledge of the class action industry is not a black mark against me personally, nor against the Church.

33 posted on 02/12/2013 7:24:17 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake

Either you fail to grasp the legal concept of punitive damages or you unreasonably want the victims to accept a hollow apology and walk away.


34 posted on 02/12/2013 8:38:17 AM PST by TSgt (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.)
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To: TSgt
Either you fail to grasp the legal concept of punitive damages

Oh, I understand punitive damages.

The way things normally work when one is the victim of a violent crime is that you press charges in criminal court.

Then you go to trial.

Then, whether you win or lose, you use the evidence presented in that trial in civil court to go after compensatory and punitive damages.

Then you bring that case to trial and you win that case, and the court awards you your damages.

And then there are the cases that were confected from the very beginning as settlement packages.

35 posted on 02/12/2013 8:45:59 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake

So if this is simply about money why did the LA Diocese settle?

Unless...


36 posted on 02/12/2013 8:56:55 AM PST by TSgt (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.)
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To: Alex Murphy

No shame on Mahoney’s part, that’s for sure.


37 posted on 02/12/2013 11:02:25 AM PST by onedoug
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To: TSgt
So if this is simply about money why did the LA Diocese settle?

For two reasons:

(1) There are many people who were actually and truly brutalized and they deserve some compensation, even if inadequate and mixed with those of grifters.

(2) For every actual offender rightfully exposed and shamed, there would be ten or more innocent priests who would be falsely accused and unjustly marked for life through public trials.

38 posted on 02/12/2013 11:13:24 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
I have known quite a few nominal, non-practicing Catholics who have left the Church for "nondenominational" services - and it has been for one reason: they starting dating or got married to men or women who were devout, churchgoing members of those congregations.

I know lots who have left the church over theological differences which had nothing to do with marriage and dating.

Those people saw the difference between what the Catholic church claims and what Scripture teaches and threw their lot in with God and Scripture.

Not to mention, since Catholic divorce, aka annulment is so readily available, there's no incentive to leave for that reason.

All a practicing Catholic has to do is get the church to annul the marriage and they are free to remarry without (allegedly) the strain of sin. So claiming that Catholics leave for reasons of morality falls flat.

The abuse scandal is a convenient excuse for those who haven't darkened a parish door in decades to suddenly wax self-righteous about their neglect of the Third Commandment.

Better to leave for that reason than stay and defend by excusing said sex abuse and cover-ups.

And since Catholics are all concerned about breaking the Ten Commandments, what about the not bowing down to graven images? They sure don't have any problem disobeying THAT commandment.

39 posted on 02/12/2013 12:42:33 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: ArrogantBustard
I find, however, that I can predict the actions and statements of some folks accurately if I assume that they are motivated by and act according to "The Rules" above. Again, I make no claims as to their actual beliefs or state of mind. I merely point out a useful tool for predicting behaviour.

Well, here's another "rule" useful for predicting behavior:

Rule One: Everything else BUT "Rome" is the locus of all evil in the Universe.

Rule Two: In case of doubt, see Rule One.

Conclusion: "Rome" must NEVER be destroyed. All else is irrelevant.

40 posted on 02/12/2013 1:33:25 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: metmom
since Catholic divorce, aka annulment is so readily available, there's no incentive to leave for that reason.

Are they?

There are about 2.1mm divorces each year in the US. About 25% of Americans are Catholic. There are 30,000 annulments granted by the Catholic Church per year, of which the vast majority are granted to Catholics who did not marry in the Church.

So that's an annulment runrate of about 6% of US divorces - and when it comes to Catholics who married another Catholic in a Catholic ceremony getting annulments, it's more like 0.6%.

All a practicing Catholic has to do is get the church to annul the marriage

As the numbers show, that's far more difficult than you are representing.

what about the not bowing down to graven images?

When do we do that, now?

41 posted on 02/12/2013 2:25:42 PM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake

You’re using facts and statistics.
Is that allowed on FR any more?


42 posted on 02/12/2013 2:27:37 PM PST by nascarnation (Baraq's economic policy: trickle up poverty)
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To: wideawake

“All a practicing Catholic has to do is get the church to annul the marriage

As the numbers show, that’s far more difficult than you are representing.”


Maybe it’s regional. I know 2 Catholics who have had 2 annulments each.

.


43 posted on 02/12/2013 2:30:39 PM PST by Mears
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To: Mears
I've never heard of anyone getting a second annulment, ever.

I'm not saying that it is a canonical impossibility - but I've never heard of it.

44 posted on 02/12/2013 2:37:55 PM PST by wideawake
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To: metmom
>>And since Catholics are all concerned about breaking the Ten Commandments, what about the not bowing down to graven images?<<

I’ve had Catholics claim that the command against images and statues was because it was that it meant to serve other gods but our God says not to use them in serving Him.

Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

So it is clear that God commanded to NOT use statues or images in the worship of Him.

45 posted on 02/12/2013 2:48:43 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2)
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To: wideawake

They are both in their 70s,one man and one woman(they don’t know each other),I’ve know them for a long time,grown children were involved and one is being married again in The Church next fall.

It was New York in one instance and Massachusetts in the other.

.


46 posted on 02/12/2013 2:56:17 PM PST by Mears
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To: nickcarraway

I am in agreement with you. I believe first 33 popes were martyred. They did not quit, they did not renounce their Petrine office.

The same people who lauded Pope John Paul II for retaining the Holy Office until the very end, even after being silenced by a trach tube, are now praising Pope Benedict for getting out, while the getting’s good.

I considered Pope Benedict to have been the most orthodox pope since Pope Pius XII. I will miss him. He had so much good work ahead ahead of him, in my opinion.


47 posted on 02/12/2013 5:51:13 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: wideawake
That is your assertion, but is refuted by more credentialed sources:
48 posted on 02/12/2013 8:25:35 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Rule One: "Rome" is the locus of all evil in the Universe. Rule Two: In case of doubt, see Rule One. Conclusion: "Rome" must be destroyed. All else is irrelevant.

That has some hyperbole in it, but this does not:

Rule One: Rome is and the supreme authority that defines what is right, and has infallibly declared that she is (conditionally) infallible, and thus accordingly to her decree, and cannot be wrong when she thusly says she is right. If she does say so herself.

Rule Two: In case of doubt, see Rule One, as that is the only way to have no doubt.

Conclusion: All must be part of the Catholic church, or be damned.

49 posted on 02/12/2013 8:25:52 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: metmom

“And since Catholics are all concerned about breaking the Ten Commandments, what about the not bowing down to graven images? They sure don’t have any problem disobeying THAT commandment.”

No Catholic disobeys that Commandment.

Growing up Protestant, I’ve seen plenty of pictures of Jesus in homes. Also plenty of Nativity sets.

Standing in front of, bowing, or kneeling in front of objects is not a form of worship. And praying in front of a statue, does not mean you are praying TO the statue.

That is rather silly.


50 posted on 02/12/2013 9:17:10 PM PST by rbmillerjr (We have No Opposition to Obama's Socialist Agenda)
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