Skip to comments.How to Stay in the LDS Church After a Major Trial of Faith [Internal Mormon critic]
Posted on 02/17/2013 8:56:40 AM PST by Colofornian
Staying is not for everyone...
In spite of 32 years of church education, I didn't ever learn...
* "Peepstone in hat" treasure digging and translation of Book of Mormon * Credibility issues w/the 3 and 8 witnesses * Multiple lst vision stories...the changing narrative of founding stories * Book of Mormon historicity issues * Book of Abraham papyrus issues * Joseph Smith having 30+ wives, 8+...married to other men at the time they were sealed to Joseph * Post-manifesto polygamy, and polygamy as a requirement for exaltation * ...depth of the Temple/Masonry connections * ...basics of Mountain Meadows (though lots about Haun's Mill)... * ...extreme racist statements and opposition to civil rights by top church leaders
"I have been VERY naive in my faith with what I have been taught. In the last year...I started to realize that my testimony, the testimony that I held to so very close to my soul, was being attacked by what looked and acted like truth [and] that contradicted what I was taught. I began to feel betrayed."
"My immediate reaction was one of going to my close friends and family...all that did was make my relationships with them strain to a new high. I realized I was now on a island, all by myself, no one to talk to or pull from..."
"And then something happened just recently, the Stake President called me to the Stake High Council.
...very reluctantly, I accepted the call.
So here I am, as a member of a Stake High Council with SERIOUS issues..."
"I have entered a very dark place. I refer to it as a dark place because what I believed was light, now seems dark."
"The church is either exactly what it claims to be, or the biggest fraud ever perpetrated upon mankind."
(Excerpt) Read more at slideshare.net ...
The quoted comments from the slideshow excerpt that begin to talk about a high stake council member's naivety of his faith -- and concludes with this quote above -- were not slideshow presenter John Dehlin's comments; he yet was quoting someone else as found on slides 19 through 23.
What is interesting is that Dehlin titled this presentation as an actual encouragement for Mormons to consider staying in the Lds church...(though he added a disclaimer that it wasn't "for everyone.")
Last week, Dehlin updated this slideshow with roughly the same advice: See 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church (Mormon Stories Podcast almost an hour long)
Dehlin, an internal Mormon critic of the church...is trying to change it from the inside-out.
What I find "interesting" about this "reformation" effort is that Dehlin advises Lds members to strongly consider staying, yet his 2007 slideshow quote of a conflicted Lds high stake council member concluding that there was no "middle ground" seems to run in stark contrast to that advice: "The church is either exactly what it claims to be, or the biggest fraud ever perpetrated upon mankind."
Per Wheat and Tares.org (http://www.wheatandtares.org/2012/07/30/sunstone-2012-recap/), Dehlin spoke at the 2012 Sunstone Conference and claims he's a "believer in something" and that he "doesnt believe the Book of Mormon is a literal history, but believes it is inspired, and he doesnt believe the Church is the 'only true church,' but rather one of many."
Throughout Dehlin's presentations, he tries -- vainly -- to seek out some Mormon "middle ground" that would allow him and other Mormons to engage in what I reference as "saving social face"...all apparently so they can find a way to stay put and keep their cultural identity, their family commitments and relationships, etc...even as the "heart" of their Mormon faith erodes away!
What's ironic in all this is that Lds "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley challenged Mormons to not even try this route: "Each of us has to face the matter -- either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and Kingdom of God or it is nothing." (Lds church "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley, "Loyalty," Ensign (Conference Edition), May 2003, p. 60
What's also ironic is that Dehlin pushes disaffected and disassociated Mormons to keep pursuing truth claims that run directly counter to the propagandistic "party line" oft' given by the Lds church -- even to the point of last week's "Top 5 Myths and Truths..." (see link above) emphasizing that these disaffected and disassociated Mormons are only doing what the Lds hymn Do What is Right [Let the Consequences Follow} encourages them to do!
Well, which is it? Are Lds going to truly "Do What is Right" and "Let the Consequences Follow"??? Or will they try to continue surfing a non-existent wave of a non-existent "middle ground"???
Oh my .... Another chance to revel in smearing a Christ believing people whom you doctrinally do not agree with!
Come now ... let’s the anti-mormon bigotry begin once more!
svcw ... you need to invite all the gang!
Sad very sad.
I have known Christians who have had a crisis of faith, and their testimonies always talk about God and Jesus Christ not their “church”. I found that interesting in comparison to this man.
Sorry I have every right to attack someone when I see BS regardless of the type of topic..
Talk to your fellow LDS member that wrote this about their bigotry and hate against the “church” and get back to us...
Yeah I know you won’t you are always one and done, but it shows your duplicity and trickery...
Upon learning what he began to uncover about Mormonism (see above...or slide 8)... he said he felt "deceived...angry like it was all a fraud...like he had a moral obligation to resign" (slide 9) and soon discovered many others like him.
|Thesis #||Links||MRM.tv; John Ankerberg links; Mormonisminvestigated (UK) youtube linkage, etc.|
|1. Smith's peepstone usage in Book of Mormon 'translation'||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #15 from this article) + Translation of the Book of Mormon + Book of Mormon translation + A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #3)|
|2. The Missing Mormon archaeology of Book of Mormon civilizations||The Scientific Search for Nephite Remains (Mormon Archaeology )|
|3. Book of Mormon history -- anachonisms||Anachronisms||Where did the Book of Mormon come from? + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #4 & #5))#|
|4. DNA as relating to undergirding Book of Mormon history||Lamanite DNA (scroll down) + DNA Science Challenges LDS History||DNA vs. the Book of Mormon|
|5. Note how Book of Mormon names matches up, with slight revisions, with local names where Joseph Smith resided||In Search of Book of Mormon Geography + Book of Mormon Geography: Which Theory do you Believe?|
|6. Early Mormon theology and latter-day fallout from disbelieving Mormon theology/doctrine||Resources on Lds theology + "This Is My Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology + The Evolution of Mormon Theology + Joseph Smiths Modalism: Sabellian Sequentialism or Swedenborgian Expansionism?|
|7 to 11. Losing faith in Book of Mormon as historical account||The Book of Mormon + Book of Mormon Difficulties||John Ankerberg Show "Book of Mormon is not qualified" + Top 10 Mormon Problems|
|10. First Nephi has LOTS of issues||The Book of Mormon and the King James Version (KJV Translation errors show up in the Book of Mormon)|
|12 to 14. Book of Abraham really an Egyptian funeral document?||The Book of Abraham + The Book of Abraham + Book of Abraham + Death Blow to Mormonism The Book of Abraham is a Fake? + The Book of Abraham + Min is Not God!||The Lost Book of Abraham + Top 10 Mormon Problems|
|15. Fake Kinderhook Plates which fooled Joseph Smith||The Kinderhook Plates||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #7)|
|17. Joseph Smith marries 14-year-old...and dozens of wives||Joseph Smith's 14 year old bride Helen Mar Kimball 100|
|18. Polyandry: Joseph Smith married the wives of 11 fellow Mormons||Joseph Smith Married Other Men's Wives: Would you share your spouse with the Prophet?|
|18 thru 25. Polygamy--including post-manifesto polygamy/Polyandry -- "polyandry" including Joseph Smith being married to 11 women already married -- who remained married||Polygamy [Everything you might want to possibly know about historical Mormon polygamy] + LDS Leaders Still Believe There Will be Polygamy in Heaven||The 34 wives of Joseph Smith (and their 11 husbands) + Lifting the Veil of Polygamy + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #8)|
|20. Joseph Smith secret 'marriage' to teen Fanny Alger minus authority to do so||Alger History and Ancestry: Fanny W. Alger 1817-1879 + Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (See #17, 18 from this article)|
|21. LDS Leaders' Lies to Cover-Up Historical Polygamy||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #56 thru #59, #64, #71, #72, #76 thru #113, #132 from this article) + LDS Leaders, Their Ethics and Lying for the Lord|
|22. Joseph Smith lied to his original wife||See # 22, 24, 29, 30, 39, 40 etc. from this list: Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read]|
|23. Polygamy: How it went from 'everlasting' to 'embarrassing'||Great Moments in Mormon History|
|24. Post-manifesto Mormon polygamy||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #56 through #59, #76 thru #113, and #125 from this article) + see Solemn Covenant: THE MORMON POLYGAMOUS PASSAGE -- see appendix list of about 260 plural marriages solemnized between 1890-1910|
|25. Lds 'scriptures' inconsistent with each other||The Book of Mormon vs Mormonism|
|28. Joseph Smith, post 'first vision,' tries to join Methodist church||Joseph Smith Tries to Join the Methodists|
|29. Multiple/conflicting versions of Joseph Smith's 'First Visions'||Joseph Smith's First Vision: Examining the evidence related to Joseph Smiths claim to have seen the Father and the Son + The First Vision + First Vision plagiarized||Heart of the Matter: First Vision II|
|30. Why lengthy lag time of announcing 'First Vision'? (Authenticity or credibility of 'priesthood restoration'/Is Lds church 'One True Church?')||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #1 from this article) + Priesthood Restoration + The Great Apostasy + Did Brigham Young teach that Christians are ignorant people?||Those Abominable Creeds +|
|31. Smith's history of treasure-digging||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #11 from this article) + Joseph Smith and Money-Digging + See post #15|
|32. Joseph Smith repeatedly claimed angel 'Nephi' -- Not 'Moroni' was 'Angel' that visited him||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #5 from this article)|
|33. Gold plates difficult for Joseph Smith to move||How Heavy Were Those Gold Plates?|
|34. Loss of credibility of so-called 'Book of Mormon witnesses'||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #14 from this article) + The Witnesses + Book of Mormon witnesses||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #9)|
|36. No early mention of Melchizedek priesthood in Mormon church||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #10 from this article)|
|38. Joseph Smith wouldn't have been able to pass a 'Word of Wisdom' interview||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #6 from this article)|
|43. Masonic influences in temple ceremony||Masonic Influence in the Endowment Ceremony + Masonry/Temple||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10) + Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples|
|45 & 46. Lds temple ceremony changes: Why change something 'direct from Mormon god?'||Temple Ritual Changed...Again + Only The Latest In A Long Line: Temple Ceremony Changes Through History + Why the temple ceremony was changed in 1990 - LDS-Mormon + Why the need for secret death oaths in the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony? [Secretive Mormon church]||Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10)|
|48. Lds church making Jews into 'Mormons' post-death as their 'saviors?'||Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? (The OTHER World Series: Vanity)|
|50. Joseph Smith shenanigans re: Nauvoo Expositor||Nauvoo City Councils minutes of 1840s provide chaos, contention and lies [Lds' Smith Shenanigans] + Unparralled Outrage at Nauvoo + The Martyrdom: The Prophet Seals His Testimony with His Blood [168th anniversary of Lds censorship]|
|51. Joseph Smith died in a gun battle||PALMER'S ALMANAC: Mormon prophet Joseph Smith met with violent end + The Nauvoo Expositor Affair [Death of Mormon Joseph Smith]|
|53. Mormon cosmology?||Mormon Science and Space Doctrines [Kolobian cosmology]|
|56. Lds prophet prophecies that failed to pass (Losing faith in Joseph Smith)||The Prophecies of Joseph Smith + this earlier 2003 FR posted piece: Failed prophecies of Joseph Smith + Joseph Smith||Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith +The Prophecies of Joseph Smith + First steps into a New Life|
|57. Brigham Young's "Adam" = Mormon god teaching over 20 years||Adam God doctrine||BYU Professor Admits Adam-God Taught By Brigham Young|
|58 to 61. Losing confidence in Lds general authorities||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] + An American Fraud: One Lawyer's Case Against Mormonism + Resources on Lds theology + How Well Do You Know Mormon Church Leaders of the Past? + Can Mormons Trust Their Prophets?|
|62. Lack of Mormon leader discernment when meeting with con artist/ murderer-to-be Mark Hofmann scandal||Film in the works about Hinckley and the Mark Hofmann Episode||Mormon Stories Podcast: The Mormon Forgery Bombings The Complex Legacy of Mark Hofmann 25 Years Later|
|65. Do official Mormon sources exist? What about the Journal of Discourses?||Do Official Mormon Sources Exist?|
|66. Church history cover-up by Lds leaders||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #7, #129)|
|67. Studying Mormon church history leading to disbelief -- therefore church leaders pre-empt scope of much Lds historical scholarship||Historical issues + Interesting Looks at Mormon History||The Early Years of Mormonism|
|69. Lds church placing illegal aliens in leadership positions||2 LDS branch presidents in Utah deported to Guatemala, El Salvador|
|72. Mormon 'testimonial' manipulation||Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary|
|73. Mormon 'prophet' Hinckley covered up Mormon teaching of becoming gods||Mormon Profits and Lying|
|74. Blood atonement: How Jesus' blood is anemic per Mormonism||Blood Atonement||What is Mormon Doctrin of "blood atonement"?|
|76. Mountain Meadows Massacre: First 9/11 terrorist act in USA||Mountain Meadows Massacre:MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE HORROR CONTINUES 150 YEARS LATER + Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #133-134)||Mountain Meadow Massacre|
|78 to 81. Mormon Racism: Exclusion of blacks from Priesthood into 1978||Blacks and the priesthood + Racism + Racial Statements in LDS Scriptures + See Bott file & links||>Racism and Mormonism + Top 10 Mormon Problems|
|83. Lds stances re: women||Great Moments in Mormon History + Making Mormon 'Spirit' Babies [Ecumenic]|
|87. Lack of Lds church financial transparency -- even to its own members/leaders||Mormon church earns $7 billion a year from tithing, analysis indicates|
|89. Supposedly 'lay clergy' Mission Presidents receive 'sweet' 'benefits' deal||Unpaid Mormon leaders get pretty sweet deal|
|94. Relying upon emotional sentiments? (A 'testimony')||Quick Responses to the 10 Most Common LDS Questions (See #7)|
Here’s some advice for every mormon:
LEAVE! If you claim to love Christ, “come out from among them and be holy.”
If you stay, you are accepting the words of men that contradict the Holy Scriptures of God.
1. God is ONE God. There are not 4 mormon earth gods plus billions of other gods. God says there is one and that there will never be another. Please use your mind. How can two gods be omnipotent? They cannot.
2. Satan’s message that you can become like god is the mormon message. No one “becomes” god. You are not going to be a god any more than Satan will become god.
3. Jesus Christ is eternal. Never created. Mormon teaching reduces Him to part of creation.
4. The Gospel of Grace alone saves. The result of His new Life is the fruit of good works. Mormon teaching forces mormons to try to earn “worthiness”. You will never be worthy enough to deserve the sacrifice of the Blood and Life of Christ. It is a gift.
5. Joseph Smith was a horndog scammer. He was not a prophet. Please read history.
6. The foundation of truth is the Holy Bible - not your feelings. When everything is said and done, the foundation of mormonism is the elevation of feelings over objective truth.
7. Mormonism is not Christianity. Not close. There is nothing shared between Christianity and mormonism, except the name “Jesus Christ”... and when each uses the name, they mean a different person.
8. There is no “restored Gospel”. It was never lost. It remains in the Bible today, as it has since the beginning. You cannot restore what is not lost. It can save you today, and yet you wait?
9. There is no “restored Church”. The Church has never ceased to exist.
10. Today is the appointed day of salvation. You have today. Tomorrow may never come. “It is appointed once for man to die, and after this comes judgement.”
What are you waiting for? You are sincere, but on the wrong path. Only you are keeping your feet on the wrong path. You can change paths today. Now. Do it while there is still time.
94 links. Very good stuff to anyone who is actually open!
Again I don’t FRAKIN CARE!!!!! I’m more concerned about Radical Islam...
If you spent 1/10th of the time understanding the dubious personalities and methods which culminated in your belief system that you do in ours ....
You would be shocked to find out that the distortions which you put on the LDS Church pale in comparison to the those that you support in your own church on a regular basis.
You definition of the “True God” of the Nicene Creed only triumphed after the Eddict of Thessalonica which demanded state adherence by threat of death.
I really do not think that an emperor’s threat of death to establish God’s definition is what our Heavenly Father or Christ had in mind.
If however, Satan himself had wanted that particular doctrine to triumph that is precisely the means he would have used. Hmmm, now who’s influence was that Emperor Theodosius really under?
....Just a little food for thought.
I do not have a gang, maybe in high school but not now.
You are aware this article was written by a mormon - right?
Do you beleive him to anti-mormon?
When you say Christ believing, you are talking about Christians and not those who practice mormonISM - right?
Even the leaders of mormonISM say that mormonISM does not teach the Biblical Christ. You know that - right?
And there are folks on FR who actually ARE open to the truth about mormonism..regardless of the attacks by the mormon apologists on these threads.
Please, post a thread about islam, then ping us.
This is a thread about mormonISM, so the discussion is about mormonISM. You are aware of that - right?
Actually Chrisislam is worse...
Of course you can attack anyone based on BS, please do so, right after you post the BS - k?
I don’t care.. I’m tried of people bashing Mormonism.. Since I have family members who is part of the LDS.. They are no threat.. They are not doing suicide bombings.. They are not doing Sharia patrols..
So am I, but I can multitask.
If you can’t and Islam is your focus why even post here if you don’t “Frakin care”
I would disagree, you are here and posting about how much you do not care.
This is the religion forum discussing religion, if you do not care don’t join the thread.
Just as a side note, I have mormon family and friends, as well which is why I care.
Then you do “Frakin care”. Well at least be straight forward about it...
And there are many other threats to ones total well being other than physical violence...
What Christ do they believe in? Its not the Christ of scripture as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Oh my! Language like that on a religion thread? Bu bye!
Well, God Almighty said we are to judge everything against His Word and to call out false prophets and teachings.
The only thing we can not do is judge someones Salvation, that is God’s preview alone.
So, KD please provide one post that has said they are judging some ones soul?
And again, if you do not care why are you here posting that you do not care.
It’s simple just avoid the religion forum. K?
“Each of us has to face the matter — either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and Kingdom of God or it is nothing.”
These are false statements. The LDS church IS in the middle ground between truth and falsehood as it incorporates some of both into doctrines. That is what makes it confusing. There are obvious truths (LDS teach the Ten Commandments) and some apparent falsehoods (Joseph Smith as the subject of worship and praise) also taught. The LDS leadership is caught between moving toward truth and maintaining the status quo. Either way they move some will be offended. Sitting on the fence is the wrong thing to do here, but do they have the fortitude to initiate change???
Years ago, Madeline Murray O’Hair was on the LARRY KING LIVE SHOW. I personally saw the show on TV so it is not second hand. It was before she took her dirt nap.
She said that the best atheists were former MORMONS and CATHOLICS.
“I dont care.. Im tried of people bashing Mormonism..”
Get some rest, we’ll wait.
“Since I have family members who is part of the LDS..”
So, you are clear that you are not objective?”
“They are no threat..”
Not talking about MORMONS. Talking about MORMONISM. Mormonism is a threat to the soul.
“They are not doing suicide bombings.. They are not doing Sharia patrols..”
Now, you are veering off into silliness. No one accused MORMONISM of terroristic crimes - though there was a day - just of heresy and leading people into a Christless eternity.
You need to get a grip on the difference between historical truth and “doctrinal differences”. Doctrine that is based on historical falsehood is false. History, as presented in Mormon documents, is false. That is the problem with Mormonism.
Oh, it's a fraud alright, but not the "biggest" one ever perpetrated upon mankind. For that designation solely belongs to Islam.
Go to RESTORNU's homepage and ping ALL of HER MORMON freeper friends that you find there.
I'm sure their combined logic and force of intellect will cause mass confusion amoung us Flying Inmen...
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, December 1, 1831. HC 1: 238239. The Prophet had continued to translate the Bible with Sidney Rigdon as his scribe until this revelation was received, at which time it was temporarily laid aside so as to enable them to fulfill the instruction given herein. The brethren were to go forth to preach in order to allay the unfriendly feelings that had developed against the Church as a result of the publication of some newspaper articles by Ezra Booth, who had apostatized.
14, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are sent forth to proclaim the gospel; 511, Enemies of the saints shall be confounded.
1 Behold, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, that the time has verily come that it is necessary and expedient in me that you should open your mouths in proclaiming my gospel, the things of the kingdom, expounding the mysteries thereof out of the scriptures, according to that portion of Spirit and power which shall be given unto you, even as I will.
2 Verily I say unto you, proclaim unto the world in the regions round about, and in the church also, for the space of a season, even until it shall be made known unto you.
3 Verily this is a mission for a season, which I give unto you.
4 Wherefore, labor ye in my vineyard. Call upon the inhabitants of the earth, and bear record, and prepare the way for the commandments and revelations which are to come.
5 Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him understand and receive also;
6 For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more abundantly, even power.
7 Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest.
8 Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord.
9 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto youthere is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper;
10 And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time.
11 Wherefore, keep my commandments; they are true and faithful. Even so. Amen.
|The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
© 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
Here ya go!
Have a BALL!!!
The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
© 2010 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
That's why you shout...
If you have cable TV, there wont be much on to watch.
If there isnt much on to watch, you will answer your door whenever someone rings.
If you open your door, you will see mormons.
If you talk to mormons, they will trick you into praying about whether something is true.
If you rely on your feelings, you may become a mormon.
If you become a mormon, you will have to wear magic underwear!
If you wear magic underwear, people will immediately label you as a cultist.
DONT be a cultist!
Then it should be your desire; nay - your DUTY to point out these distortions that are SO obvious to you and point them out to the rest of us.
We sure do NOT want to be fooled, any more, by this slippery Califoriumn person!
Don't worry Kevin. We MORE than make up for it!