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Of 'Mormon Studies' and Apologetics [Mormon apologist recounts his firing by BYU]
FairLDS.org ^ | Aug. 5, 2012 | Daniel C. Peterson

Posted on 02/17/2013 1:30:16 PM PST by Colofornian

...The very recent decision by the current leadership of the Maxwell Institute to forego explicit defense and advocacy of Mormonism—to renounce explicit apologetics—may have been influenced by concerns about the arrogant mean-spiritedness of one or two of those most prominently associated with its apologetic side...

SNIP

...notice how the 2012 Mission Statement of the Maxwell Institute reads, and contrast it with the one I quoted...from 2010:..

...Gone is the language about “defend[ing] the Restoration”...

...during the last conversation that I had with the director of the Maxwell Institute before I left for six weeks overseas—I was dismissed by email roughly a week into my trip, while in Jerusalem—I was informed of the new course to which the Maxwell Institute is now committed...

A few observers, commenting on the recent shake-up at the Maxwell Institute, have claimed that it represents a generational change: A newer, perhaps better trained, certainly kinder and gentler cohort of scholars is arriving on the scene that is embarrassed if not disgusted by the things their predecessors have done, and that is eager to replace sordid polemics and distasteful pseudoscholarship with solid, dispassionate Mormon studies. Time will tell whether this change of generations will really deliver the predicted transformation.

(Excerpt) Read more at fairlds.org ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: inman; ldsapologists; mormon; mormonbashing; mormonism; peterson
This is from the 2012 FAIRLDS apologetics conference. Peterson

From the June 22, 2012 blog by Peterson:

Since it has now been publicly announced, I suppose that I can break the self-imposed public silence that I’ve maintained, with only a couple of minor exceptions, regarding my dismissal as editor of the Mormon Studies Review, published by Brigham Young University’s Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, after founding it and directing it for twenty-three years. ...I vigorously reject the insinuation that the Review was in a crisis that necessitated emergency mid-volume intervention, and that it now requires a post-Peterson “detoxing” period before it can be permitted to resume publication

#1 This was LONG overdue by BYU...congrats in dumping Peterson, one of the worst Lds apologists in ignoring obvious historical and theological evidences about Mormonism. (Unlike many Mormons, he can't claim ignorance to the proofs he has had access to)...

#2 How BYU dumped Peterson is another matter, and shows precisely why people deem the Mormon church as a "cult."

From the FAIRLDS Conference talk Peterson gave last August: : ...during the last conversation that I had with the director of the Maxwell Institute before I left for six weeks overseas—I was dismissed by email roughly a week into my trip, while in Jerusalem—I was informed of the new course to which the Maxwell Institute is now committed...

As Peterson mentioned in that June 2012 blog of his: ...The formal statement mentions my associate editors — Louis C. Midgley, George L. Mitton, Gregory L. Smith, and Robert B. White — and pretty clearly implies that they, too, have been dismissed. They didn’t even receive an email. The newly-posted statement on the Maxwell Institute’s website, I suppose, constitutes their notification and their thanks for, cumulatively, many years of service...One of them had written Dr. Bradford several days ago, asking whether he was to be canned along with me, but received no answer. Another called Dr. Bradford by telephone, but his call was not returned. One is traveling in Europe without Internet access, and still knows nothing about any of this (though his earlier calls to Dr. Bradford, regarding a matter that now seems to have been related, also went unanswered). My own emails to Dr. Bradford received no response, and their receipt was never even acknowledged. For those of you who may be managers in either the public or private sector, a word of counsel: Don’t treat your employees this way.
Source: Of Gratitude, and Its Expression (June 22, 2012)

Please note on all of the above: All of these Mormon leaders wound up as "losers"...Peterson's apologetics style -- along with those around him -- got shot down...with the final straw coming when they went after internal Mormon member-critic John Dehlin.

The end result? Peterson and several of his FAIR cohort apologists got fired...see BYU Professor Daniel Peterson Fired as Editor of Mormon Studies Review at BYU’s Maxwell Institute

Mormon Neal Rappleye took Peterson's side, yet still noted re: the "hit piece" that Peterson's co-apologist Greg Smith was doing on John Dehlin:

"As I explained, the article, written by Greg Smith, was rumored to be a “hit piece.” Dehlin’s consistent justification for attempting to stop its publication has been that he felt a need to stand-up against the “old-school” apologetic bullies. (From where I stand, it’s the one who gets an article critical of themselves censored by threatening to get high-level Church officers involved who’s the bully, but that is just me.) Problem is, neither Dehlin nor anyone else who insisted the paper was ad hominem have actually seen and read the contents of the paper. All those who have read it insist it is nothing of the sort, so some are changing their tune. Now it is being said that Dehlin and his activities are not “worthy” of such notice from an academic journal, even if that journal is on “Mormon Studies.” For example, one observer has said “It’s kind of embarrassing how many of the apologists seem to think it’s appropriate for an academic journal, sponsored by a major university, to publish a 100+ page, ‘footnoted’ exposé of the religious views of the host of an Internet podcast. The tone of the article could be all hugs and kisses, and it would still be cringe-worthy.”
Source: Controversy over dismissal of BYU professor

Bingo on that last "observer's" statement!

1 posted on 02/17/2013 1:30:24 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
From Peterson's talk at the FAIRLDS Conference (still smarting, as he sarcastically said): A few observers, commenting on the recent shake-up at the Maxwell Institute, have claimed that it represents a generational change: A newer, perhaps better trained, certainly kinder and gentler cohort of scholars is arriving on the scene that is embarrassed if not disgusted by the things their predecessors have done, and that is eager to replace sordid polemics and distasteful pseudoscholarship with solid, dispassionate Mormon studies. Time will tell whether this change of generations will really deliver the predicted transformation.

Peterson lampoons what BYU was regarding as "distasteful pseudoscholarship"...but frankly, not only is that all that FAIR and its cohort of apologists have been...but as mentioned in the previous comment, that's all its hit piece by Greg Smith was amounting to be...

2 posted on 02/17/2013 1:31:07 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
This is posted to link to this other posting: 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church [Lds FAIR group critiqued]

Last weekend (Feb. 10, 2013), John Dehlin expanded his over 5-year-old presentation to include -- and take direct aim -- at FAIRLDS...

This all provides a bit of backdrop to the 2012 behind-the-scene fireworks drama where FAIRLDS was preparing what was described as a lengthy "hit piece" on fellow Mormon John Dehlin, an internal critic of the church.

These FAIRLDS Apologists wrote a supposedly "scholarly" publication for BYU's Maxwell Institute...Dehlin apparently got wind of it...met with an LDS General Authority, who then not only pre-empted the "hit piece" but had the BYU Maxwell Institute decision-makers "can" these five FAIRLDS apologists.

Surprisingly, Dehlin, in the above talk, still refers/links people to FAIR. So, he's NOT operating at the level of "sour grapes."

3 posted on 02/17/2013 1:37:52 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
From apologist Peterson's FAIRLDS talk last August: ...notice how the 2012 Mission Statement of the Maxwell Institute reads, and contrast it with the one I quoted...from 2010:.....Gone is the language about “defend[ing] the Restoration...

Do Mormons and others interested in this realize what a stark realization this is???!!! The so-called 'Restoration' -- the foundation of all things Mormon & heart of any Mormon missionary presentation -- is no longer defensible! If BYU (the Lds church) is no longer the ONLY 'game' in town, then there was no absolute apostasy -- only a historical partial one. Therefore, no jumpstart from scratch was need; therefore, the so-called 'restoration' was unnecessary...superflous.

The newer approach is simply: "Hey, we're 'Christians' and 'they [other sects] are Christians, too. Can't we just all 'get along'?"

The "Restoration" as worthy of defense has been washed by the wayside as of 2012!!!

4 posted on 02/17/2013 1:42:22 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

This is great information, thanks.


5 posted on 02/17/2013 1:56:18 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Colofornian

Colofornian ...

I have a suggestion for you .... on Sunday, for once why don’t you read the scriptures about Christ’s love, instead of trying to destroy other Christians belief system which you don’t approve of.

If you think this post is that potent .... please be an apologist for why your definition of God and Christ was:

A. Dictated by a pagan Emperor, Constantine.

B. When that Pagan Emperor became baptised he did everything he could to put the Nicene creed into the dustbin of history.

C. The Nicene Creed was ressurected by Emperor Justin the Apostate to fracture christianity in his attempt to reinstate paganism.

D. The Nicene Creed finally triumphed through Emperor Theodosius who established the eddict of Thessalonica which made alternative beliefs to the Nicene Creed punishable by death.

So in otherwords .... your belief system was established by Imerperial decree, Imperial Coercion and Imperial directed Murder.

I’ll take any critisicm of my beliefs that you can throw at me compared to the mountain of ungodly influence that established your belief system.

Sincerely yours, Teppe


6 posted on 02/17/2013 2:49:07 PM PST by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country)
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To: svcw; Colofornian; Utah Binger; colorcountry; metmom; Godzilla; Graybeard58; Zakeet; ...
Just think how different things would be in mormonland if Mitt had won the presidency!

Instead of FR members complaining about the doctrine and internal workings of the sect being highlighted, we would be inundated with thread after thread from mormons celebrating the "god"-driven takeover of the presidency.

The grapes in the mormon wine are sour indeed.

7 posted on 02/17/2013 2:53:10 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: teppe

“I have a suggestion for you .... on Sunday, for once why don’t you read the scriptures about Christ’s love, instead of trying to destroy other Christians belief system which you don’t approve of.”

Teppe, Christ’s love - the eternal God, never created nor made -does love you. Why don’t you turn to HIM instead of a false religion that believes in a creature that was later exalted?

“.... please be an apologist for why your definition of God and Christ was:

“A. Dictated by a pagan Emperor, Constantine.

False! You have to stop just taking what they tell you without doing independent study.

“B. When that Pagan Emperor became baptised he did everything he could to put the Nicene creed into the dustbin of history.

False!

“C. The Nicene Creed was ressurected by Emperor Justin the Apostate to fracture christianity in his attempt to reinstate paganism.”

False!

“D. The Nicene Creed finally triumphed through Emperor Theodosius who established the eddict of Thessalonica which made alternative beliefs to the Nicene Creed punishable by death.”

False!

“So in otherwords .... your belief system was established by Imerperial decree, Imperial Coercion and Imperial directed Murder.”

False!

“I’ll take any critisicm of my beliefs that you can throw at me compared to the mountain of ungodly influence that established your belief system.”

You funny man!

The Great Command is to love the Lord your God with ALL your heart. All your soul. All your mind.

Whatever happened to the mind teppe? Why don’t you honor God by doing some independent research?


8 posted on 02/17/2013 2:59:10 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Wouldn’t that be not sour grapes but stagnate water.


9 posted on 02/17/2013 3:15:05 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: svcw
I guess it would be wine made from stagnant water and sour grapes. In any case, Praise God that we don't have a mormon in the White House. Obama is working to destroy the country...mormonism works to destroy the soul of Christianity.
10 posted on 02/17/2013 3:19:25 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: teppe

I have an idea missy, why not start your own thread with your anti-Christianity ravings and ping us. K?
With all of your supporting evidence as to why the lds was once a man god and created lds jesus, who needs Joseph Smith’s help for salvation, instead of the Eternal God Almighty and Jesus Christ. Who gives Salvation freely by Grace, as opposed to the lds salvation “after all you can do”.
K?


11 posted on 02/17/2013 3:27:34 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: teppe

Constantine was a Christian convert and a saint in the Church. Unless you discount your own LDS efforts at converting people or admit you look down on said converts your argument is specious at best.

Therefore the rest of your post is also..


12 posted on 02/17/2013 4:00:41 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Colofornian

bfl


13 posted on 02/17/2013 5:14:21 PM PST by ransomnote
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To: teppe
"So in otherwords .... your belief system was established by Imerperial decree, Imperial Coercion and Imperial directed Murder."

"I’ll take any critisicm of my beliefs that you can throw at me compared to the mountain of ungodly influence that established your belief system."

That certainly is a polite way of putting it.

However, calling it a mountain...(err only a mountain?) is a huge understatement. And I think it speaks well of you that you refrain from going that route. Heaven knows you could.

It's bad
"The Martyrs Mirror is a collection that chronicles hundreds of stories of Anabaptists who were killed for their faith. The first part of the book contains the story of Jesus and continues by recounting the martyrdom of saints from the Bible and those who soon followed. The second part of the book jumps to the killing of the Anabaptists by the Catholic Church and the Lutherans and portrays these martyrs as part of the unbroken history of Biblical martyrdom."

"There is the unjust persecution which the wicked inflict on the Church of Christ, and the just persecution which the Church of Christ inflicts on the wicked. - St. Augustine"

And the list goes on and on and on.. With a history like that, making up a belief like "All you have to do to be saved is believe!", becomes a necessity. Because when you start adding in all the scriptures about works, things start to not look so good.
14 posted on 02/18/2013 9:05:27 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: Colofornian; All
"Gone is the language about “defend[ing] the Restoration"

"is no longer defensible"

This is really....bad logic. No... that's too timid. Let me try again...dumb as a box of hammers logic...

Its just the mission statement for a department at a college for crying out loud. *chuckle*

Your post makes it sound like the whole Mormon Church is packing it in. LOL!

I Googled it and the mission statement has just been simplified.

By furthering religious scholarship through the study of scripture and other texts, Brigham Young University’s Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship seeks to deepen understanding and nurture discipleship among Latter-day Saints while promoting mutual respect and goodwill among people of all faiths.

Looks like BYU considered Peterson to not be in harmony with their vision of church apologetics, so they replaced him. They considered his style to be "mean" and they are not interested in being "mean".


15 posted on 02/18/2013 9:45:53 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: svcw
"I have an idea missy, why not start your own thread with your anti-Christianity ravings and ping us. K?"

I find your statements to be so very odd.

Bringing up history is considered "anti-Christian"?

Who gives Salvation freely by Grace, as opposed to the lds salvation “after all you can do”.

Those two concepts are not diametrically opposed. Both are supported by the New Testament, specifically by Jesus Himself.

Put them together as the Bible does and you get, grace is freely given to those that do all they can do and please God. Jesus saves all men who keep His commandments and does the will of His Father. All men are judged by their own works.

It's very simple math. 1) Have faith in Jesus Christ. 2) Keep the commandments of God. 3) You are judged by your works. 4) If your works are good, grace is freely given.

The Catholics follow this doctrine too, correct?

Biblically speaking, it's spot on right.
16 posted on 02/18/2013 10:27:09 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach

Grace is Grace, works is works they are not equal.

Biblical Salvation is not worked based, hence the term Grace.

There is assurance in Grace, there is no assurance in works.


17 posted on 02/18/2013 10:39:28 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: MeOnTheBeach
Its just the mission statement for a department at a college for crying out loud.

BYU isn't just "a college"...and if you don't know that, you know neither Mormon culture nor the Lds church hierarchy.

For example, take a look at the list of BYU professors who have either been dismissed by the Lds church hierarchy or pre-empted from covering more controversial historical topics.

18 posted on 02/21/2013 2:20:51 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: svcw

Looks like our stunt mormon pulled their cover back a wee bit to much. Rather funny actually...


19 posted on 02/21/2013 5:31:47 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: MeOnTheBeach

No, actually Catholics don’t.

No Christian faith does.


20 posted on 02/21/2013 5:40:05 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: ejonesie22

Yep


21 posted on 02/21/2013 5:40:17 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: svcw
"Grace is Grace, works is works they are not equal."

Apples and oranges. Grace and works are not comparative. Grace and works are co-dependent, they go hand in hand.

"Biblical Salvation is not worked based, hence the term Grace."

Technically it is. You can't have salvation without works. That's straight out of the mouth of the prophets and Jesus Himself.

I find that most people who take the "believe only" stance conveniently describe "works" in an out of context fashion. I see, "You can't work your way to heaven", posted all the time. That's not what's being said. What's being said is, Jesus requires certain works in order to give grace.

That's straight from the mouth the Lord Himself. You can choose to believe anything you want in this life. God gave us freedom of choice. But at the judgement you're judged by your works and not by any other standard.

"There is assurance in Grace, there is no assurance in works."

There is perfect assurance in the works of God. There is perfect assurance that Jesus will judge us correctly. There is perfect assurance that if we do what God has commanded us to do, He will bless us as He said He would.

As far as I can tell, there's no arbitration at the judgement. You can't talk your way out of it. Either you followed the rules to get into Heaven or you didn't. You did what you were supposed to do or you didn't. Your works will show exactly which master you followed.
22 posted on 02/22/2013 7:17:56 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: ejonesie22
"No, actually Catholics don’t."

"No Christian faith does."


This is not historically correct in any way. You should do some research before making definitive statements like this.

The historical requirement of baptism for most of Christendom completely disqualifies your statement.
23 posted on 02/22/2013 7:24:06 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach
You can't have salvation without works.

That is patently false. If you have to work for Salvation, you can never be assured. There is no way to work hard enough or long enough to earn the Gift of Grace.

Grace is a gift. Gifts are not earned.

24 posted on 02/22/2013 7:43:05 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: MeOnTheBeach
My research is far more advanced than yours. I serve with Catholics on numerous Ecumenical boards and ministries, along with Baptist, Lutherans, Methodist such as myself, and all share share the message of the free gift of Christ’s redeeming Grace and that to be Baptized you must accept Christ as your savior. Since there are learned practitioners and clergy from all such groups on these boards and in these ministries of fellow Christians I'll take that research over the “Historical” research of a LDS member...
25 posted on 02/22/2013 7:49:09 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: MeOnTheBeach
You are the perfect LDS member. Believing that will let anyone telling you what you must do to get into heaven be your master including a “prophet” such as Joe Smith.

The reality is far more freeing and blessed than that...

26 posted on 02/22/2013 7:52:59 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: MeOnTheBeach; ejonesie22

Well, Beach, your answers make sense now that I realize you are practitioner of mormonism.
I was slow to catch that information.


27 posted on 02/22/2013 8:07:33 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: svcw

One of the hidden ones, a “stunt Mormon” as it were but too obvious now.

Expect denial.


28 posted on 02/22/2013 8:17:35 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: svcw
"That is patently false.

This is patently what the Lord Jesus Christ said Himself. If you don't want to accept it, that's your choice. Good luck with that at the judgement.

If you have to work for Salvation, you can never be assured.

I have faith in Jesus Christ, that's all the assurance that I need. Your statement reminds me of something straight out of the Screwtape letters; don't try because you can't succeed.

"There is no way to work hard enough or long enough to earn the Gift of Grace."

Do you honestly think the rules get changed because you think it's too hard??

"Grace is a gift. Gifts are not earned."

If doing evil works will condemn you, good works have to save you; through the judgement and grace of Jesus Christ. He will judge us based on our works and give grace accordingly.

1 John 2:29
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Colossians 3:25
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

John 3:21
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

1 John 3:7
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

John 9:31
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Matthew 7:21
21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 9:4
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

James 2:22
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

These are just a small handful of scriptures out of literally 100's that show the importance of works in regards to salvation. It's the 2nd most important and prominent teaching in the whole New Testament.

And here's a biggie:
Revelation 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

To say works have no part in salvation is bizarre when works is the very criteria Christ uses to grant salvation.
29 posted on 02/22/2013 8:46:15 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: ejonesie22
"You are the perfect LDS member."

Really? I've been called a lot of things but never that. Funny. I was accused of being an atheist at one point.

Thanks to you, maybe I'll look into it. But call me what you want, I don't get offended by people on the internet. *chuckle! (Well unless you call me a liberal or tell me you're going to take my guns away...I have to work on that one)

"The reality is far more freeing and blessed than that..."

Atheist say the same thing...
30 posted on 02/22/2013 9:02:39 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: ejonesie22
"My research is far more advanced than yours."

This is called, "Appeal to Authority".

I serve with Catholics

Awesome! Now answer me this, do Catholics believe baptism is necessary for salvation?
31 posted on 02/22/2013 9:08:20 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Eph 2:8-9

Checkmates you Mormons every time.

You know the words but have no understanding. Therefore you get it all backwards. Works are BECAUSE of salvation through GRACE, not for EARNING salvation.

Don't worry, not your fault, works based salvation is drilled into your heads as it is in several cults. Without it they could not maintain the control of otherwise free people.

The history and story of God's own plan of salvation its very self shows the error of such thinking. If works gained salvation then Christ was totally unnecessary.

32 posted on 02/22/2013 9:10:14 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: MeOnTheBeach

Well when one plays games and is less than stright forward expect anythoing. For now, you are LDS until you will admit to being otherwise. Some of us take faith seriously and find games just a cover for such groups who find “lying for the lord” acceptable.

And atheist never say anything is “blessed”. Nice try.


33 posted on 02/22/2013 9:20:28 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: MeOnTheBeach
Saying one follows Christ and or the Bible is an appeal to Authority. No different that what you are attempting, but with much less success. While it's cute to play the logical fallacy game, make sure that all the bases are covered. If the authority is correct then there is no fallacy.

I know the slope you are heading down, pardon me if I will stay safe up here in the truth and not get caught in your avalanche. But here is a hint, Baptism is not a work...

Next...

34 posted on 02/22/2013 9:30:51 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: ejonesie22
"And atheist never say anything is “blessed”. Nice try."

The Blessings of Atheism From the NY Times.

You're as accurate with this as just about everything else.

"For now, you are LDS until you will admit to being otherwise.

I don't get trolled and I won't be bullied. Good day.
35 posted on 02/22/2013 9:40:31 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach
Hardly religious in meaning.

No one is trolling you or bulling you. You come into the threads calming some level of authority (ironic that is) and telling knowledgeable Christians they are wrong. Yet you will not be forth coming about your own faith and background.

So until otherwise declared we go on the “walks like a duck”

So save the victim stuff...

36 posted on 02/22/2013 10:43:17 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: MeOnTheBeach
To say works have no part in salvation is bizarre when works is the very criteria Christ uses to grant salvation.

Is it by the works of Christ we are judged, or of our own? If our own, then one sin forever separates us. If that not be true...then the Muslim idea of scales, one's good deeds on one side, weighed against one's sins on the other is proper? If so, then why should God Himself need have come to bear the sins of the world at all?

I'm sorry, but the theology you propose is anything but Christian. It is not much more than a demand to out-Pharisee the Pharisees (zealots after the law).

Is THAT what the theology you propose understands what Christ meant when He said "... except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven"?

It is best to consider the setting under which he said the above (following the presentation of what is now known as the Beatitudes).

Closing that chapter is

Which raises the question, 'how to be perfect?'. I suggest it is not in regards to law itself, but towards the origins and intent of the law. For one can think of themselves as outwardly keeping every aspect of the law, yet inwardly be as the Pharisees which He condemned.

If we have learned anything regarding the documented relationship of the children of Israel to God and His given laws, is that no flesh can keep them. Anything less than perfection, is not enough.

Good works gets no one into heaven, for none are good enough. Except One.

37 posted on 02/22/2013 12:14:29 PM PST by BlueDragon
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To: MeOnTheBeach
Put them together as the Bible does and you get, grace is freely given to those that do all they can do and please God. Jesus saves all men who keep His commandments and does the will of His Father. All men are judged by their own works. It's very simple math. 1) Have faith in Jesus Christ. 2) Keep the commandments of God. 3) You are judged by your works. 4) If your works are good, grace is freely given.

Ping for later comment

38 posted on 02/28/2013 9:49:51 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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