Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Viewpoint: 'Hold on to what you believe' [Lds: 'Does it feel...everyone you know is falling away?']
BYU Universe ^ | Nov. 12, 2012 | Laura Thomas

Posted on 02/17/2013 8:50:07 PM PST by Colofornian

A couple of months ago I ran into a dear friend of mine. After exchanging pleasantries and walking along campus, she turned to me and said, “Does it feel that everyone you know is falling away from the church?” Relieved that someone could understand how I feel, I looked at her and sighed. It seems like more and more of my friends are losing their faith in God and leaving the church.

She and I have a close friend who recently told us that she’s now an agnostic. Or maybe she’s an atheist. I’m not too sure at this point and she’s not too sure either. For her there is a war waging inside her heart as she tries to reconcile what she believes. For her it was a difficult decision to concede that she does not know whether or not God exists — and it breaks both her heart and mine. I can’t really understand it. And her family can’t really understand it either. She has given up not only her beliefs, but the support of her family and her culture all at once.

I will be honest that hearing that my dear friend doubts God’s existence gave me pause to reflect on what I know and what I believe. I looked out the vast window in the law library, tears streaming silently down my face as I thought of how devastated I was for my friend, how alone she must feel.

And then I thought of how good God has been to me. And I could not deny His existence. I have had too many experiences in my life and have felt of His specific and dear love for me too many times to deny that there is a Heavenly Father who not only exists, but who also knows me personally and has a plan for me.

I know that I am becoming a minority on the international and national stages. Religion has fallen out of favor in our society. In many circles, it has become a four-letter word to say you even believe in God, and where saying you go to church is almost laughable. And this in a country that was founded on principles of religious devotion. I’ve lived in a country where atheism is the norm rather than the exception, and America is not far behind in the trend.

But I believe in God, and I’m not ashamed of it. I’m proud to be a woman of faith in a world that I can see is becoming so cynical and prejudiced about religion.

Our generation receives a lot of criticism that we are lazy and entitled, but I don’t know of a group that has had to work harder collectively than ours to hold firm to what we believe.

So what is to be done in a world that is systematically removing God from its corners? How should we respond when faced with friends, family and strangers alike when they choose to turn from God? Well, first do as Mumford and Sons says and “hold on to what you believe.” Faith is a choice, and the choice is ours to make.

I ache to share my beliefs with those I love the most. Of course I would want them to know what I know, not so that I have a corner on the faith market, but because my faith brings me so much peace and joy. Of course I would want that for them.

But when I think of my dear friend who is going through this crisis of faith, I know that the best thing for me to do is to just live my life in the best way possible and show her I love her and want her to be happy.

Maybe she will come back to the church and have a renewed faith in God and Jesus Christ. Maybe she won’t. All I can do is live the faith that I love so dearly and love those around me as best I can, hoping that they will see the joy in my life that results from living the gospel and want the same thing in their lives. But if not, it won’t change the love and respect I have for them. That’s not why we were friends to begin with. And that’s not the reason we’re friends now.

And if you’re struggling with your faith, just hang in there, do the best you can and hold on to the things you do know. Even if it’s not very much. Some things take time to work through.

This has easily been one of the hardest things I’ve had to go through, to see one of my friends struggle with something so difficult. I haven’t really known how to handle it and she hasn’t either. We try to be open, but sometimes it’s hard. And I don’t think we’re alone in this. As a church we need to do better at talking about this and trying to understand one another, especially when we don’t agree. Silence doesn’t solve anything.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: apostasy; faith; inman; lds; losingmormonfaith; mormonism
From the BYU piece: A couple of months ago I ran into a dear friend of mine. After exchanging pleasantries and walking along campus, she turned to me and said, “Does it feel that everyone you know is falling away from the church?” Relieved that someone could understand how I feel, I looked at her and sighed. It seems like more and more of my friends are losing their faith in God and leaving the church. She and I have a close friend who recently told us that she’s now an agnostic. Or maybe she’s an atheist. I’m not too sure at this point and she’s not too sure either. For her there is a war waging inside her heart as she tries to reconcile what she believes.

There's NO doubt about it: The Lds Church is hemorrhaging members deeply!

2012 stories:
* When He Stopped Believing [Mormon exodus underway] [July 2012 Official Lds magazine Ensign]
* But I’m a good Mormon wife: Sean and I had the perfect life. Then his faith started to crumble...

Around the globe:
* A Glimpse of Mormonism Around the Globe [Vanity] [See links within this article for additional shows of Mormon hemorraging]
* Notes: Mormonism and the Internet [Duplicity/mixed messages cited; baptism-of-dead issue lingers]
* Survey on Mormon Disbelievers to be Released at UVU Forum [74% point to theological concerns]
* Why Mormons flee their church
* Number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining
* Mormons opening up in an Internet world [& Losing members accordingly]
* Special report -Mormonism besieged by the modern age [Lds church is hemorrhaging in member losses]
* See also 2010 posting: Why Mormons Leave

1 posted on 02/17/2013 8:50:20 PM PST by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

Thanks


2 posted on 02/17/2013 8:52:13 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
while I personally believe that Joseph Smith was a perverted arrogant con man, and his "religion" based totatlly on lies and perversion, I don't understand why we have to constantly berate our Mormon freepers, nor more than I like the way Catholics are berated....

perhaps what is needed is a sense of common goals and values, not attacking each other...

3 posted on 02/17/2013 9:22:28 PM PST by cherry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cherry

Perhaps what is needed is the truth? As in the Word of the Living God..If not now, than when? If not you, then who?


4 posted on 02/17/2013 9:51:27 PM PST by hope (Whom the Son sets free is free indeed!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: cherry

I agree with you. People should feel free to share their interpretation of the Gospel, but the constant attacks on “those people” are wearying and counterproductive.


5 posted on 02/17/2013 11:11:37 PM PST by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: cherry
Perhaps its because of the intolerable air of smug, condescending triumphalism that so many Mormons and Catholics exhibit on these boards towards everyone else.

And before I get flamed, I said "so many", not "all".

6 posted on 02/18/2013 2:45:14 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9

Yeah, I never read that from evangelicals, never.

Do I need a sarcasm tag?


7 posted on 02/18/2013 3:05:58 AM PST by muir_redwoods (Don't fire until you see the blue of their helmets)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; All

Out differences are microscopically insignificant compared to the differences we have with individuals/collectives who want to deceive, enslave, kill YOU. Know your crucifier.

Thread BUMP!


8 posted on 02/18/2013 3:15:44 AM PST by PGalt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: muir_redwoods

SOME Evangelicals are even worse, true.


9 posted on 02/18/2013 3:32:45 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
But I believe in God, and I’m not ashamed of it.

So?

It's 'believing in' Joseph Smith's LIES that will put you on the wrong path to 'god'.

10 posted on 02/18/2013 4:55:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ccmay
I agree with you. People should feel free to share their interpretation of the Gospel, but the constant attacks on “those people” are wearying and counterproductive.

MY GOD does NOT want me 'interpreting' His gospel - but to PROCLAIM it.

(And ALSO to point out and expose FASLE 'gospels' and FALSE 'christs'.

So; here we go...



 
Acts 17:18-19
 18.  A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.
 19.  Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?
 
Acts 18:11
    So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
 
 
 
 
 
Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 
 
Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 
 
1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
 
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.
 
 
Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
 
 
1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.
 
 
1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
 
 
2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
 
 
 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.
 
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
 
 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
 
 
Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
 
 
Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
 
 
Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
 
 
 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.
 
 
 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 
 
2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.



11 posted on 02/18/2013 4:59:21 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: ccmay
I agree with you. People should feel free to share their interpretation of the Gospel, but the constant attacks on “those people” are wearying and counterproductive.

Honey: I know JUST what you MEAN!!!





Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

12 posted on 02/18/2013 5:05:47 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9

Yup!

It’s those that give the 1% a bad name...


13 posted on 02/18/2013 5:07:46 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: PGalt
Out differences are microscopically insignificant compared to the differences we have with individuals/collectives who want to deceive, enslave, kill YOU. Know your crucifier.

Out differences are ETENALLY significant compared to the differences we have with individuals/collectives who want to rule, enslave, kill YOU. They can only hurt your body.


Know from where your SALVATION comes.

(It'll be a LONG time...)

14 posted on 02/18/2013 5:10:08 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

amen


15 posted on 02/18/2013 6:26:44 AM PST by PGalt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: cherry; ccmay; Vanders9; Elsie; All
while I personally believe that Joseph Smith was a perverted arrogant con man, and his "religion" based totatlly on lies and perversion, I don't understand why we have to constantly berate our Mormon freepers, nor more than I like the way Catholics are berated....

Would you listen to how that sounds?

Let me provide a parallel situation for you...

Say there's a long-time con artist who works the doorbells of your community daily. You know it...most of your neighbors know it...but your female neighbor down the street doesn't.

The con artist winds up taking 10% of her ongoing income -- not just a one-time "hit job" -- but 10% for the rest of her life; he also takes up a LOT of her time...getting her to do a LOT for dead people...feeding her lies, perversions...

And then you see one of your neighbors on your street repeatedly talking to this poor lady...encouraging her to stop "doing business" with the con artist because she's getting burned financially, emotionally, spiritually, etc.

Your response, Cherry (& by extension, ccmay & vanders9), to that?

Well, instead of joining in the warning you actually berate your neighbor who's doing what the Bible says to do -- to warn and engage in admonitions -- while you "look the other way" over the $, emotional & spiritual "rip-offs" that's taking place of your neighbor.

Do you want to tell us exactly how that's being "neighborly" to your victim-neighbor???

And then, the second part of your "sage" advice?

perhaps what is needed is a sense of common goals and values, not attacking each other... [cherry]

And so you three "neighborly" types (cherry, cc, vanders) all march down the street to your ripped-off neighbor and the person who's warning her about the con artist and you, Cherry suggest: "Perhaps what is needed is a sense of common goals and values. Maybe, the con artist could join our 'Better Business Bureau' where we all rally around common goals and values, and then we won't ever have to utter a negative word about him."

(And then I suppose, Cherry, you'll excuse yourself from that get-together since you have dandelions to go pick)

There's a 5-volume work from the Lds church's 10th "prophet," Joseph Fielding Smith...called Answers to Gospel Questions...published by the Lds-church owned Deseret Book Company.

In that work, JF Smith twice outlined the key mandates of an Lds missionary. In both volumes 1 and 4, Joseph Fielding Smith cited the same Mormon "scripture" Doctrine & Covenants passage: 88:81-82:
"Behold, I sent you out to testify and
WARN the people, and it becometh every man who hath been
WARNED to WARN his neighbor.
Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads."

Joseph Fielding Smith then, after citing these verses in volumes 1 and 4, mentioned the following:
"This commission to go forth which was given in the beginning is still in force and binding on every missionary who goes forth today to declare the gospel of salvation in the world." (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. I, p. 134, 1957/1979)

And:

"...there are certain commandments missionaries should remember...they are sent not only to preach and bear testimony and bring people to repentance...but to WARN ALL men..." (Vol. 4, p. 55 1963/1979)

You know what I took away from reading Joseph Fielding Smith is that I'm glad to live in a country where Lds missionaries are free to "warn" others as they see fit.

Well, guess what that means, Cherry, CC, Vanders? Has it dawned on you yet, that there was a second sentence to that comment that mutually applies?

I'm also glad to be a member of my church and worship as I see fit -- and that includes the freedom to engage in an exchange of mutual warning with my neighbors, the Mormons.

You wouldn't begrudge me the same freedom you extend to Lds missionaries, would you Cherry, CC, Vanders? Joseph Fielding Smith said the very essence -- the commission and commandments -- of an Lds missionary is to warn all men. Right?

Yet somehow when Lds missionaries go around and bug/warn people re: the so-called complete universal "apostasy" -- that ALL Catholics, ALL Protestants, ALL Orthodox are apostates -- & that they "need" the Mormon gospel...that's all "a-OK" eh???

16 posted on 02/18/2013 7:40:57 AM PST by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: PGalt
Out differences are microscopically insignificant compared to the differences we have with individuals/collectives who want to deceive, enslave, kill YOU. Know your crucifier.

Don't we take our cultural cue from a certain "Lord" named Jesus Christ? Who are we to follow when it comes to setting cultural priorities? Jesus and the apostle Paul? or PGalt?

Here's Jesus:

"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:4-5)

So does Jesus say, "fear the 'enslavers?'" (No)
Does Jesus say "fear the 'crucifiers'??" (Hardly! Jesus Himself subjected Himself to the crucifixion to save your soul and my soul from our sin)
Instead, does He say to exercise fear of the One who has authority to cast somebody into hell? (Yes)
So, indeed, our "fear" is on behalf of those who are placing their eternal spiritual lives at risk. As for somehow treating our "differences" as "microscopically insignificant" ...
(a) Mormon missionaries don't do that...and there may be 100,000 of them out & about by 2014...
and (b) I could probably guess that the folks who the apostle Paul warned the church @ Ephesus about had the bulk in common with the sheep there. Both groups were "religious."

So, did Paul play the "allies"-game-don't-divide-us-you're playing? (No)

As Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)

Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves!)

Tell me something, PGalt: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it's rather important? So what? We're just to conclude, "Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament -- what does he know about cultural priorities?"

17 posted on 02/18/2013 8:16:40 AM PST by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: cherry

Interesting.
There is no trashing of mormons, there is exposure of mormonISM.
This article was written at BYU, a mormon college about mormonism.
And more importantly this is the religion forum, discussion of religion - who would have thunk it.


18 posted on 02/18/2013 8:25:49 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: PGalt

Insignificant? That’s a new one.

lds god - man who worked his way to godhood
Biblical God - Eternal
(hardly insignificant differences)

lds jesus - once a man worked his way to sort of a god status
Biblical Jesus - Eternal
(hardly insignificant differences)

lds salvation - must be worked for
Biblical Salvation - Grace
(hardly insignificant differences)


19 posted on 02/18/2013 8:31:53 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: All; svcw; Elsie
From the article: Religion has fallen out of favor in our society.

Well...some religion does need a falling out.

My Bible has only one "reference" to "true religion" -- the book of James...where he says "true religion" is to help the orphan and widow.

Other than that, it's been the legalistic religions that wind up turning off so many to the true God and the true Jesus.

Too many disaffected and disassociated Mormons think that Ldsism represents "Christianity" -- and wind up not wanting any of it, or anything they think might resemble it.

In this way, Mormonism becomes a poor "PR" example of so-called "Christianity" to these jack Mormons.

What IS needed is a true relationship--not a religious structure.

In the Bible people are baptized INTO Jesus Christ; not into a religion or church.

And Jesus Christ defined "eternal life" as knowing the only true God, and Jesus whom God sent. (see John 17:3)

20 posted on 02/18/2013 9:01:14 AM PST by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: svcw; Colofornian

Thanks for posting. Informative, educational.


21 posted on 02/18/2013 9:22:33 AM PST by PGalt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: svcw
This article was written at BYU, a mormon college about mormonism.

We are smart...




 
 
Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

 
 
Timeline...    Subject...
 
0:59           "Anti-Mormons..."
1:16           "ATTACK the faith you have..."
2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."
3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."


22 posted on 02/18/2013 9:41:34 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Sorry Colofornian. I forgot to add "snarky unwarranted sarcasm" to my earlier list.

I have no problems with anyone engaging in the expression of free speech. I DO have a problem with someone whose revelling in being "saved" seems to be largely augmented by looking down their noses at the poor rubes who are not part of their heavenly club. I dont care whether they are mormons, catholics, evangelicals or reformed toadstool worshippers. Triumphalism, i.e. the arrogant belief that your preferred set of ordering worship is superior to that of the church down the road, has no place in Christian thought. The only thing, and I mean the only thing, that Christians have going for them is that we have a savior. Everything else is window dressing.

I applaud you talking to the poor lady in your example. But I would stop you if you did it by beating her around the head with your bible.

23 posted on 02/22/2013 1:12:43 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9

Your opposition to exposition of cult doctrine and the posting of opposing biblical scripture is best presented to the Religion Moderator, who I’m sure will enlighten you as to the propriety of these topics on this forum.


24 posted on 02/22/2013 1:55:35 AM PST by fattigermaster (When tigers hunt, the jackals profit...when tigkers sleep, the jackals rule.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9
Triumphalism, i.e. the arrogant belief that your preferred set of ordering worship is superior to that of the church down the road, has no place in Christian thought.

Did Jesus engage in "Triumphalism" versus the Pharisees with his message of Matthew 23?

Did the early Church fathers of Christianity engage in "triumphalism" vs. Gnostic sects & Arianism heresies?

What do you do? Do you just go about totally revising the New Testament and early Christian church history where-ever it doesn't "fit" with your sectarian brand?

...I DO have a problem with someone whose revelling in being "saved" seems to be largely augmented by looking down their noses at the poor rubes who are not part of their heavenly club...arrogant belief that your preferred set of ordering worship is superior to that of the church down the road...

IOW...your set of ordering outreach MUST BE "superior to that of" my church down FReeper road, eh?

So how is it that...
...as you look down your nose at my engagement of what every major Christian denomination regards as "heresy" that you manage to escape your own finger-pointing of "arrogance"?
If my outreach technique doesn't match your elitist standard, am I not a "poor rube" in your eyes?

If you accuse me of doing something that "has no place in Christian thought" -- are you not engaging in your own intolerant heresy hunting whereby you flunk your own standards of perceived tolerance? Are you not thereby engaging in your own version of "Christian triumphalism" where you're expressing, "Boy, I'm glad I'm not a sinner like that Colofornian is"???

I applaud you talking to the poor lady in your example. But I would stop you if you did it by beating her around the head with your bible.

EXPOSING people to Biblical concepts is not automatic IMPOSING upon people from the Bible...'tis your unproved assumption of hyperbole that translates such to "beating...round the head."

Elsewise, you'd have been guilty of beating me over the head with your Bible in your last post...
...since your accusations were plenty...(elitism; triumphalism; arrogance; superiorism; "no place in Christian thought"; assaulting women)
...If you were somehow representing some kind of "kinder and gentler" humble version of Christianity, sorry, you flunked your own personal standards with that post!!!

25 posted on 02/22/2013 11:14:06 AM PST by Colofornian (Lds say Christian sects are 'apostates' & Lds=1 true church...means we are NOT 'fellow Xtians')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: fattigermaster

I’m sorry I don’t understand what you are talking about. I havent expressed opposition to anything except smugness and trampling over other people. I dont mind if people want to fire bible verses at each other, or engage in rationale debate.


26 posted on 02/24/2013 9:08:19 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Wow, you seem to have drawn an awful lot from what I thought was a very mild post calling for more civility when dealing with others.

Well, to set the record straight, I'm not trying to revise the NT or early Church history - I dont think I mentioned any of that. I just think that witnessing to someone is more effective if you respect their situation, even if you disagree with it. Honey catches more flies than vinegar. Or if you want to be more scriptural, Jesus talking to the woman at the well.

I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking about you personally with the bit about those "revelling in being "saved" seems to be largely augmented by looking down their noses at the poor rubes who are not part of their heavenly club" and "arrogant belief that your preferred set of ordering worship is superior to that of the church down the road". I was speaking in general terms. The tragic fact is that kind of thing does happen. There are Christians who seem to spend more time bashing other Christians about points of theology than they do standing up to secularism, islam, or neo-paganism. I've been on the recieving end of a lot of that, and so I'm quite sensitised to it. Its very saddening and very painful. Friendly fire always is.

I'm a Baptist. I'm a baptist by conviction. I disagree with some of the beliefs and practices of the Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans and Catholics I have come across, but I don't deny they are Christian. Some Catholics (and extreme protestant groups) dont afford me the same consideration, and I resent that. I resent that an awful lot. I particularly dont like getting it on this site.

Mormans and Jehovahs Witnesses are heretics, but that just means they are wrong. Of course exposing people to the correct Biblical concepts is not automatically imposing upon people from the Bible - but some people do that, and I think that although with God's grace that can work it's more usually counter-productive. Again I wasnt attacking you personally - I don't know how you work - I was making a general comment. I apologise if you've taken that to heart.

27 posted on 02/24/2013 9:35:55 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9
"Exposing people to Biblical concepts...is more usually counterproductive."

Baptist, huh.

Lying for the Lord

28 posted on 02/24/2013 10:57:58 AM PST by fattigermaster (Train for life in prison because they are stacking the bricks and setting the bars around you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: fattigermaster
You're indulging in a bit of lying for the Lord yourself friend! You can misrepresent anyone by the technique of selectively printing their statements. The bit you conveniently left out is important.

is not automatically imposing upon people from the Bible - but some people do that, and I think that although with God's grace that can work IOW, some people still go after Heretics and non believers with what used to be called "bible-bashing" - a heavy handed stream of assertions. Increasingly people you witness to today won't put up with that. Your post will be reported.

29 posted on 02/25/2013 12:30:54 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9

I’m absolutely terrified.


30 posted on 02/25/2013 5:21:49 AM PST by fattigermaster (Train for life in prison because they are stacking the bricks and setting the bars around you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Religion is and always has been the problem. Religion is man made way, a human invention, to worship God. He doesn’t want a man made system to worship him. That is what Leviticus is about. Under that system, there is no way for us to get close to Him- or to get it right.

He want’s us to love one another, show mercy, and follow Him humbly- exalting only the one God (because everyone else wants to consume us), and nothing else.

Religion is this woman’s problem- not unbelievers.


31 posted on 02/25/2013 5:28:45 AM PST by Truth2012
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: fattigermaster

You should be. You’re in danger of hellfire.


32 posted on 02/25/2013 7:36:10 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9

My, thou art full of thyself. What’s the matter, troll, is nobody paying attention to you?


33 posted on 02/25/2013 9:16:00 AM PST by fattigermaster (Train for life in prison because they are stacking the bricks and setting the bars around you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: fattigermaster

You bear false witness. And you indulge in personal attacks.


34 posted on 02/25/2013 4:15:27 PM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9

I can tell you’re very lonely. But I already have a date.


35 posted on 02/25/2013 5:03:40 PM PST by fattigermaster (Train for life in prison because they are stacking the bricks and setting the bars around you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson