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Mormon Reformation (Stay) or Mormon Evacuation (Leave the Church)?? [Vanity: Links]
Colofornian (Vanity) | Feb. 21, 2013 | Colofornian

Posted on 02/21/2013 3:11:46 PM PST by Colofornian

With Free Republic being down Monday thru part of Thursday, some may not have seen this latest wave regarding the recent struggle calling for Mormons to either reform their church -- or leave it.

Some internal Mormon critics -- like John Dehlin -- favors Mormons staying, but realizes that's NOT an option for all disafffected Lds. (Three of the links below are from PowerPoint presentations by Dehlin)

Along these lines, these articles/presentations were all posted on FR last Sunday...feel free to either comment here...or go to one or more of these links below and comment there...Also...the first, second, and sixth links below all have posts with mega-links where controversial issues within the Mormon church can be further researched.

* Mormon Reformation [Posting of 95 Theses on Mormon Church Doors]

* Internal Lds critic powerpoint excerpt: How to Stay in the LDS Church After a Major Trial of Faith [Internal Mormon critic]

* Internal Lds critic powerpoint excerpt taking aim at 'Mopologists': 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church [Lds FAIR group critiqued]

* From a True Blue 'Mopologist': Of 'Mormon Studies' and Apologetics [Mormon apologist recounts his firing by BYU]

* Sunstone 2012 Recap [Focus on internal Lds critic Dehlin's presentation on why some Mormons stay]

* Internal Lds critic powerpoint excerpt: Why People Leave the LDS Church, and what family/friends/community can do about it

* Perspective from a BYU student published in BYU campus newspaper: Viewpoint: 'Hold on to what you believe' [Lds: 'Does it feel...everyone you know is falling away?']


TOPICS: History; Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: disaffectedmormons; inman; lds; mormonism; mormonreformation
This is especially geared for disaffected and disassociated Mormons.

Come and learn what your fellow Lds are struggling with the most re: their religion & rituals & tales of history matched up with reality.

1 posted on 02/21/2013 3:12:00 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

THANKS!!!!!
Welcome back to the good fight.


2 posted on 02/21/2013 3:23:38 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Colofornian
I would have thought that a 3 day respite from 3 minutes of HATE would have cooled you off; but NO! - just as terrible as ever - posting facts about MORMONism!

 
666 posted on Thursday 21, 2013 3:35:28 PM by I'm sure your old bishop has a blank TR just WAITING for your name. Come back - all will be forgiven.)













Whatcha lookin' here for??










3 posted on 02/21/2013 3:47:13 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: Colofornian
This is especially geared for disaffected and disassociated Mormons.

.....and for those who wonder why there is resistance to their religion.

Why are you PERSECUTING US?

Mormons who wander onto RfM (and FR) and decide to respond often sing the same song: "But we are such nice, Christian people who just are trying to live our religion. Why are you picking on us?" It's a fair question. If Mormons are so nice and normal and trying so hard to be good, why are they so universally disliked? Because as a group, they are disliked - not just perceived as weird but actually disliked and disapproved of. Mormons, if you are still reading, here is why.

First, the good news is that most people couldn't care less about you. Think about how important the beliefs of the Latvian Orthodox Church is to you and how often you look to them for an example and you will see what I mean. Let's talk about the people who know Mormons and don't like what they see. You think it has to do with Satan or jealousy or guilt at not being able to live up to Mormon standards. The problem is, people who know Mormons don't think much of their standards and if the shoe were on the other foot, you'd agree. So let's put that shoe on the other foot.

1) You move into a new neighborhood and none of the neighbor kids are allowed to play at your house because you have a picture of a temple on the wall. How well would you like your neighbors? Because that is how they feel about you not letting your kids into their house because they have a coffee maker or beer in the fridge.

2) The women at the PTA ask if you'd like a cup of coffee and you say "No thanks, I'm Mormon." At the next PTA meeting, the women ignore you and sit on the opposite side of the gym as you. You feel snubbed yet that is how you treated the woman in your old PTA who brought Starbucks or wore a tank top.

3) Then, an evangelical preacher moves in down the street from you. He hears there is a Mormon family on the block and decides he was prompted to buy the house in order to save your family for Jesus. He and his wife keep coming by with cookies and invitations for your kids to their youth group and bible camp. No matter how much you tell them you are happy being Mormon, they won't stop in their determination to save you. Worse, if he can't save you, he is going to save your kids, hoping that when you see how happy mainstream Christianity has made your kids, your heart will soften toward Christ. He often talks to your kids about religion behind your back.

4) At least the very nice family next door is your friend. You do all sorts of stuff together. Then they invite you to an MLM meeting. You tell them you aren't interested. They invite you one or two more times and when they see you are serious, they drop you like a hot potato. Kinda like you did to the family who said they weren't interested in Mormonism. How does this make you feel that they only wanted to be your friend because of what they could get out of it?

5) You overhear at the grocery store some people talking about how Mormons aren't as good parents as other people and don't care as much about their family because of all the time spent at church. How mad did that make you? Yet you secretly believe Mormons are better parents than non-LDS and love their kids more and set a better example. Do you think non-Mormons are any less outraged by your opinion of how they live their lives?

6) Your darling daughter, who you've loved and cherished since birth, decides to marry the son of the evangelical pastor. The pastor says "Our branch of Christianity feels marriage is sacred and non-Christians, like the LDS, aren't worthy to be at weddings in our church. So I'm going to perform the marriage while you sit outside but we'll invite you to the gym afterward for cake - OK? I'm sure you understand and respect our religious beliefs. If you want to attend the wedding, you can just get baptized a true Christian. If you are willing to change your religion, then you'll be worthy do see your daughter marry."

7) In general, the people in your new neighborhood look down on you for your beliefs, how you dress, how you live your life, they think they are superior and they let you know it. Of course, they are nice enough to want to help you out of Mormonism so you can NOT be a weirdo and fit into the neighborhood. Why don't you appreciate it? They are such nice people and they just want to help you out of your cult and into normal life? Why do you hate them so? Why can't you see how nice they are?

People don't like Mormons because they treat other people in a way they would never tolerate being treated.
You Mormons probably do have good intentions but you seem incapable of seeing it from the other person's point of view. You also seem incapable of seeing that you need to change in order to be entitled to the higher standards you claim. Because your behavior is often appalling and since everyone around you (Mormon) is acting the same way, you can't see why it's wrong. But I promise, what so many people in the world think of Mormonism isn't an opinion they pulled out of thin air - it's a reaction to what you are putting out and how you are treating others. Can you honestly say that you are doing onto others as you would want them to do unto you? You need to think about that before you try to convince us you all are so nice.

5 posted on 02/21/2013 4:03:46 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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Link for post #5
6 posted on 02/21/2013 4:09:25 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: greyfoxx39; teppe
But I promise, what so many people in the world think of Mormonism isn't an opinion they pulled out of thin air - it's a reaction to what you are putting out and how you are treating others.

Now now...

I'm just SURE that tepee can explain the following...



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

8 posted on 02/21/2013 4:29:56 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
It takes a teepee village. That guy on the left is doing that exactly.


9 posted on 02/21/2013 4:37:16 PM PST by Utah Binger (Southern Utah Mood is Fine Art)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: Elsie
Chickens are scattering fast.


11 posted on 02/21/2013 4:52:41 PM PST by Utah Binger (Southern Utah Mood is Fine Art)
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To: All
Just posted...includes 9-minute clip on 'Leaving Mormonism':

“Some people think truth is more important than loyalty to a tradition.” ['Leaving Mormonism']

12 posted on 02/21/2013 4:56:35 PM PST by Colofornian (Lds say Christian sects are 'apostates' & Lds=1 true church...means we are NOT 'fellow Xtians')
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Elsie

Look at that !!!

Typical of you, Elsie ...

You made some poor lil Mormon so upset you made him sin in #4 right after you and his comment was deleted...

Shame on you !!!


14 posted on 02/21/2013 8:47:01 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Utah Binger

1 Kings 21:21


15 posted on 02/22/2013 3:48:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Utah Binger

We’ve only one chicken left; Ol’ George - a little red hen - ‘bout the size of a Western Blue Jay.


16 posted on 02/22/2013 3:49:10 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tennessee Nana

The shame is; that I do not remember my pithy words of wisdom from yesterday.

What did I post that so upset the Moderator?


17 posted on 02/22/2013 3:52:01 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
That's a painting Mrs. Binger made this week of a Hawaiian rooster.
18 posted on 02/22/2013 4:43:55 AM PST by Utah Binger (Southern Utah Mood is Fine Art)
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To: Utah Binger

Can a Nene be far behind?


19 posted on 02/22/2013 4:49:44 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

I’ll bite. What’s a Nene?


20 posted on 02/22/2013 4:55:46 AM PST by Utah Binger (Southern Utah Mood is Fine Art)
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To: Elsie

21 posted on 02/22/2013 5:08:39 AM PST by Utah Binger (Southern Utah Mood is Fine Art)
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To: Utah Binger; Tennessee Nana

I’ll bet a Kiwi named Nana could tell you about a Nene!


22 posted on 02/22/2013 7:59:40 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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