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becoming a god [Mark Cares discusses official Lds view of becoming gods]
Mark Cares' blog ^ | Feb. 22, 2013 | Mark Cares

Posted on 02/22/2013 11:57:31 AM PST by Colofornian

Over the years I have repeatedly discussed with LDS members Mormonism’s teaching about persons being able to become a god. The reactions have been varied. Some readily admit that this is LDS teaching and they wholeheartedly accept it. Most, however, try to qualify it and downplay it. They have done this in two different ways.

The first is by saying that Mormonism teaches that they can become like God. They claim that even though LDS Scripture clearly says that people can become gods. The classic passage is D&C 132:20: “Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power and the angels are subject to them.”

That passage clearly states, in a number of different ways, that people can become gods. And over the years many LDS leaders have pointed to this passage to teach this doctrine. That, I feel, is proof enough that Mormonism teaches that people can become gods, or that when it talks about becoming like god – that is what it means.

The other way that Mormons have sometimes tried to downplay this teaching is saying that they would never become a capital G God. Instead they say that they would be small g gods, thus implying a difference between the two. But again, the question is: Is that what Mormonism teaches? In the student manual on the Pearl of Great Price, a manual in current use, we find this quote: “Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.” (p. 4) Note especially the use of the capital G – “evolving into a God”.

This quote is notable for two reasons. One is that it is used in an official LDS Church manual. Although all Mormons do not agree on the weight that such manuals carry, the LDS Church has repeatedly said that church manuals carry a lot of weight. They state that they present the official teaching of the church. That is only to be expected. The normal practice is to consider official anything that is officially published by an organization. It would be, for example, the silliest of arguments if an NFL player argued that the rulebook published by the NFL did not represent the official rules of the NFL and thus what he did wasn’t against NFL policy.

But this quote is significant for another reason as well. It was given by the First Presidency of the LDS. The First Presidency is the prophet and his two counselors. It is the most authoritative body in the LDS Church. Even though it was given in 1909 it is still pertinent as evidenced by it being quoted in a manual published in 2000. Without a doubt we can say that Mormonism teaches that people can become a God.

Why am I making such a big point of this? One is because it is denied by many LDS members today and thus it needs to be stressed to get an accurate picture of Mormonism. Two is because it is another demonstration of the great gap that exists between Mormonism and the Bible. But most importantly of all, I am pointing this out to illustrate the stark difference between the comfort given by Mormonism and the Bible. Look again at that quote. “Through ages and aeons” it says they evolve into a God. That reminds me of one LDS man telling me that it would take him 10,000 eternities to become a god.

Compare that to the wonderful comfort the Bible gives. As soon as believers die, they enter the mind-boggling bliss of God’s presence. Instantaneously all pain and sorrow is replaced with perfect peace and joy. There are no eternities of evolving and work. Instead, instantaneously, there is absolute perfection and wonderful glory.

And the best part of it all is that Jesus accomplished all this for us. He did everything to make us acceptable to God. In him, right now, we are perfect and worthy in God’s sight. This heavenly bliss is his gift to us. To him, and to him alone, be all praise and glory!


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: becomingagod; gods; lds; moreofhissheet; mormonbashing; mormonism
From the blog: Official Lds "scripture" from their doctrines & covenants: D&C 132:20: “Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have ALL POWER and the angels are subject to them.”

So...Mormons proclaim that Temple Lds will be "all power" filled gods!

From the blog: The other way that Mormons have sometimes tried to downplay this teaching is saying that they would never become a capital G God. Instead they say that they would be small g gods, thus implying a difference between the two. But again, the question is: Is that what Mormonism teaches? In the student manual on the Pearl of Great Price, a manual in current use, we find this quote: “Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.” (p. 4) Note especially the use of the capital G – “evolving into a God”...this quote is significant for another reason as well. It was given by the First Presidency of the LDS. The First Presidency is the prophet and his two counselors. It is the most authoritative body in the LDS Church. Even though it was given in 1909 it is still pertinent as evidenced by it being quoted in a manual published in 2000. Without a doubt we can say that Mormonism teaches that people can become a God.

Mark Cares has a ministry to Mormons. Cares' book is recommended within this article: Love Your Mormon Neighbors

1 posted on 02/22/2013 11:57:43 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Very nicely laid out. I will be keeping this for reference.


2 posted on 02/22/2013 12:04:25 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Colofornian

A friend of mine came out of the Mormon church and categorized its teachings as “straight out of the pit of Hell”. For some that simpler apologetic may suffice.


3 posted on 02/22/2013 12:29:22 PM PST by avenir (I'm pessimistic about man, but I'm optimistic about GOD!)
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To: Colofornian
Compare that to the wonderful comfort the Bible gives. As soon as believers die, they enter the mind-boggling bliss of God’s presence. Instantaneously all pain and sorrow is replaced with perfect peace and joy.

Can you show me the precedence of this using G-d's Word in the OT? I've been looking for years in the Old Testament for references about the dead either getting sent "straightaway to heaven" or "hell" and I just cannot seem to find reference in G-d's Word, the OT itself regarding such teachings.

The problem I have with holier-than-thou christians talking crap about other faiths is that christianity corrupts the Original Teachings an equal amount of the time (as mormonism) with it's man-made "Doctrine" just as the much as the other religions christianity itself denigrates.

The christian part of the "Judeo-Christian" always supersedes the "Judeo" part. Like for instance paulinist christianity incorporating the pagan Mt. Olympus/Valhalla mythology or the Hades mythology into their man-made doctrine. (heaven and hell)
4 posted on 02/22/2013 12:34:14 PM PST by brent13a
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To: Colofornian

;)


5 posted on 02/22/2013 12:49:52 PM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: avenir

It seems that Job got his wish and more. . . .
The enemy appears to have compiled more than one book.

And the serpent seems to have garnered quite a following.


6 posted on 02/22/2013 1:00:38 PM PST by conserv8
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To: Colofornian
Wow ! Another THREE MINUTES' HATE for today ? You're really on a roll !

BTW, what do YOU think people who "go to heaven" do ? Sit around playing harps and singing hymns ?

You've ridiculed the Mormons for THEIR beliefs. Grow a pair and tell us YOURS.

7 posted on 02/22/2013 1:20:25 PM PST by jimt (Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed.)
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To: jimt; Colofornian

I misspoke. You’ve ridiculed the Mormons by your clearly unbiased (cough, cough) presentation of their beliefs.

Dou you have to travel far to refill on bias, spew and ugliness ? Or do you just download it ?

Group hates are much more inspiring in person.


8 posted on 02/22/2013 1:24:07 PM PST by jimt (Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed.)
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To: Colofornian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIgWwkS9HSU

Let's just cut to the chase; shall we?


The Doctrine and Covenants

Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

 


 

 16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

 17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.

 18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

 19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

 22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

 23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.

 24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

 25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.


9 posted on 02/22/2013 1:29:04 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: brent13a
The problem I have with holier-than-thou christians talking crap about other faiths is that ....

Mr. Phelps; your mission; if you choose it; is to go on FR and deflect the looking into MORMON teachings and high jack the thread into Christians defending something - ANYthing; just to get the attention away from us.

As Always, T.M.










Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

10 posted on 02/22/2013 1:32:32 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: jimt
You've ridiculed the Mormons for THEIR beliefs.

Oh?

Nope; merely pointed out that MORMONism is nowhere close to being 'christian'; even though it has incorporated some of the same words that Christianity uses and re-defined them.

Perhaps that is the source of your confusion.

11 posted on 02/22/2013 1:35:05 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: brent13a
Can you show me the precedence of this using G-d's Word in the OT? I've been looking for years in the Old Testament for references about the dead either getting sent "straightaway to heaven" or "hell" and I just cannot seem to find reference in G-d's Word, the OT itself regarding such teachings.

#1...If God took Elijah -- when he was still alive -- and placed him immediately in heaven...why do you doubt about the dead?

"When the Lord was about to take Elijah UP TO HEAVEN in a whirlwind..." (2 Kings 2:1)

#2...When David's baby died, he said: "...now that he is dead...I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (2 Samuel 12:23)

Obviously, David is not referencing something about he and his infant being together in hell, was he? (The ONLY post-death place of real relationships in the Bible is heaven)

#3...Jesus spoke authoritatively as a Jew when He spoke. Jesus either lied -- or spoke the exact truth -- when He told the Jews, "Before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58)

Therefore, the Messiah pre-figured the Old Testament.

Likewise, Jesus' disciples heard Him pray, where He told Heavenly Father: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5)

Bottom-line, Jesus, pre-Abraham & pre-creation, spoke of hell's sufferings as already underway in Luke 16:19-23.

Again, Jesus either had the sheer lunacy & audacity to be "witnessing" before God & man that He shared glory with the Father "before the world" began, or He knew what He was talking about in Luke 16 & the Gospels.

12 posted on 02/22/2013 1:36:47 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: jimt
Group hates are much more inspiring in person.

That's why we travel in pairs and ALWAYS follow Rule #60!!


The Rules

  1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.
  2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
  3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
  4. Don't debate or argue.
  5. Center your mind on your mission.
  6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
  7. Cut your hair regularly.
  8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
  9. Be neat and clean.
  10. Bathe frequently.
  11. Use deodorant.
  12. Polish your shoes.
  13. Iron your shirt and business suit.
  14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.
  15. Study for 2 hours every morning.
  16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
  17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
  18. Exercise regularly.
  19. Write in your journal regularly.
  20. Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
  21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
  22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
  23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
  24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
  25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
  26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
  27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
  28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
  29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
  30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
  31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
  32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
  33. Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
  34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
  35. Stay with your companion during all activities.
  36. Do not go on road trips.
  37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission
  38. Do not watch television.
  39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
  40. Do not listen to the radio.
  41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
  42. Do not participate in musical groups.
  43. Do not participate in athletic teams.
  44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.
  45. Do not engage in contact sports.
  46. Do not engage in water sports.
  47. Do not engage in winter sports.
  48. Do not engage in motorcycling.
  49. Do not engage in horseback riding.
  50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.
  51. Do not embark on a private boat.
  52. Do not embark in a private airplane.
  53. Do not handle firearms.
  54. Do not handle explosives.
  55. Do not swim.
  56. Do not play full court basketball.
  57. Do not play basketball in leagues.
  58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.
  59. You may play half-court basketball.
  60. Never be alone.
  61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
  62. Be loyal to your companion.
  63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
  64. Pray with your companion every day.
  65. Study with your companion every day.
  66. Plan your work with your companion every day.
  67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
  68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
  69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
  70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
  71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
  72. Do not arise before your companion.
  73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
  74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
  75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
  76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
  77. Do not flirt.
  78. Do not date.
  79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
  80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
  81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
  82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
  83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
  84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
  85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
  86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
  87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
  88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
  89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
  90. Do not telephone parents
  91. Do not telephone relatives.
  92. Do not telephone friends.
  93. Do not telephone girlfriends.
  94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
  95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.
  96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president
  97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert.
  98. Obey all mission rules.
  99. Obey the laws of the land.
  100. Do not get involved in politics.
  101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.
  102. Do not give any information about the area.
  103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
  104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
  105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
  106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
  107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
  108. Be courteous.
  109. Provide community service.
  110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
  111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
  112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
  113. Your mission president must approve your housing.
  114. Keep your housing unit clean.
  115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
  116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
  117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
  118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
  119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
  120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators.
  121. Maintain your health.
  122. Eat a healthy diet.
  123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
  124. Follow the approved exercise program.
  125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
  126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
  127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
  128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
  129. Be immunized.
  130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
  131. Budget your money carefully.
  132. Keep a record of what you spend.
  133. Do not spend more than your companion.
  134. Do not loan money.
  135. Do not borrow money.
  136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
  137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.
  138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
  139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.
  140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
  141. Be a frugal photographer.
  142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.
  143. Obey custom laws and regulations.
  144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
  145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
  146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
  147. Do not drive without a license.
  148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
  149. Do not drive members’ cars.
  150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
  151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.
  152. Use cars only on approved mission business.
  153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
  154. Be conscious of safety at all times.
  155. Drive defensively.
  156. Wear your seat belt.
  157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
  158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
  159. Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
  160. Know bicycle safety rules.
  161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
  162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
  163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
  164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
  165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.
  166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
  167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.

13 posted on 02/22/2013 1:38:12 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
The nonsensical fallback of "Paul says in the NT" or "Jesus says in the NT" shows how theologically inept (and more importantly) historically inept so many holier-than-thou christians are:
Jesus and his disciples didn't travel the Galilean and Israeli backroads with a jewel-encrusted New Testament under each arm, nor did they go quoting the King James verses as they taught Torah and Kingdom Ethics to lost Jews.
Jesus and the disciples taught to other Jews using Torah and Tanakh, and it was the Torah and Tanakh interpretations of the 2nd Temple period.
All christianity teaches is that somehow man-made doctrine (that neither Jesus nor his disciples ever taught) somehow supersedes the fact that they taught from Torah and Tanakh.
And here we are, 2,000 years later with 5,000+ different denominations with all their thousands of different man-made doctrines….and yet so many christians can so easily cast stones at Mormons or others because their beliefs are "so radical".
The irony is sickeningly thick.
14 posted on 02/22/2013 3:19:35 PM PST by brent13a
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To: jimt; All
BTW, what do YOU think people who "go to heaven" do ? Sit around playing harps and singing hymns ?

Let's get the "harps" query out of the way first:
Per this Does heaven exists? (Time Magazine, March 24, 1997) article, 43% of Americans (as of over 15 yrs ago) believed then that harps would be in heaven?

[You're not dissin' about 40% of Americans on this topic, are you, Jim?]

So...where did this concept come from? Well, actually the New Testament itself!

Allow me to quote Mark Hitchcock's book, 55 Answers to Questions About Life After Death:

"The Greek word for harp in the New Testament is kithara, from which we get our word guitar. The kithara was a stringed instrument like a lyre or small modern harp. The harp is employed more than any other instrument in Scripture in the direct worship and praise of God. The noun and verb form of this word occur six times in the New Testament, and four of them are in Revelation. The first use is found in Revelation 5:8: 'When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and bowls of incese, which are the prayers of the saints.'...In Revelation 15:2, Tribulation saints--those who refused to take the mark of the beat and were martyred for the sake of Christ--are pictured 'standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.'" (Multnomah, 2005, pp. 144-145)

Re: what we DO in heaven...Hitchcock has surveyed the New Testament and answers that question on pp. 174-178. I will simply give you his six-point summary from pp. 176-178:
1. Singing and praising God (Rev. 4:10-11; 7:7-12; 11:15-17; 14:3; 15:2-4; 19:4-6) [I would think this includes glorifying God for both who He is...and for what He has, and continues to accomplish, provide, give, etc.] Praise God, the ONLY True God!!!
2. Serving (Rev. 1:6; 7:15; 19:5; 22:3)
3. Supervising (Matt. 25:21; Lk 19:17-19; 1 Cor. 6:3; 2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 3:20-21; 20:4; 22:5)
4. Sharing (1 John 3:2; Rev. 22:4)
5. Studying (1 Cor. 13:12). By this Hitchcock means "Since...we will never know everything, we will spend eternity learning more about the infinite majesty of God's person and ways."
6. Being served (Lk 12:35-37) ...Surprisingly, not necessarily by "one another" -- but actually being served by God Himself, the Ultimate Servant-Leader.

15 posted on 02/22/2013 3:34:39 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: brent13a
The nonsensical fallback of "Paul says in the NT" or "Jesus says in the NT" shows how theologically inept (and more importantly) historically inept so many holier-than-thou christians are: (Brent said, with all the "holier-than-thouness" he could possibly muster)

Jesus and his disciples didn't travel the Galilean and Israeli backroads with a jewel-encrusted New Testament under each arm, nor did they go quoting the King James verses as they taught Torah and Kingdom Ethics to lost Jews.

Well, of course, Jesus quoted the TORAH and the N'VI'IM (former/latter prophets) & the K'TUVIM (Writings).

But ya know...He didn't have to...based upon His authority alone:

* 25 “Who are you?” they asked. “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.” 27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. (Jesus, John 8:25-29)

* 28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. (Matthew 7:28-29)

* 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man. (Matthew 9:6-8)

* 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Beyond that, what do you think Jesus was referencing -- and then even expanding with great authority -- re: His Sermon on the Mount?

* Matthew 5:21-22 re: murder: “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you...
* Matthew 5:27-28 re: adultery: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you...
* Matthew 5:31-32 re: divorce: “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you...
* Matthew 5:33-34 re: Oaths: “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you...
* Matthew 5:38-39 re: Eye for eye, tooth for tooth: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you...
* Matthew 5:43-44 re: love for enemies: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you...

Brent...let's not have any attempted neutral "middle ground" here...either what Jesus says above is all true; or else He's a liar or false prophet. No mere "great teacher" could be mistaken about all of the above...

Which of those two possibilities do you favor at this time in your life?

16 posted on 02/22/2013 4:03:15 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: brent13a
The nonsensical fallback of "Paul says in the NT" or "Jesus says in the NT" shows how theologically inept (and more importantly) historically inept so many holier-than-thou christians are:

Getting anyone to fight yet?

17 posted on 02/22/2013 4:41:29 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: brent13a; All
And here we are, 2,000 years later with 5,000+ different denominations with all their thousands of different man-made doctrines….and yet so many christians can so easily cast stones at Mormons or others because their beliefs are "so radical". The irony is sickeningly thick.

Oh...so you mean all these Judaistic groups have been doctrinally united for these past up to 2,000 years or so...or the off-shoots listed below have all "come home" to THE ONE TRUE DOCTRINAL JUDAISM, eh Brent??? (Well, that's good to know!)

Presenting...
...Brent's "Doctrinally United" Judaism:
...Sadducees,
...Pharisees,
...Essenes,
...Zealots,
...Karaite Judaism,
...Sephardic Judaism,
...Mizrahi Judaism,
...Hasidic Judaism (followers of Israel ben Eliezer)
...Mitnagdim Judaism,
...Hasidim/Baal Shem Tov ("pious"/"happy" ones),
...Ashkenazim Judaism (German),
...Haredi Judaism,
...Masorti Judaism,
...Reform/Progressive Judaism,
...Orthodox Judaism,
...Haskalah Judaism (followers of Moses Mendelssohn)
...Reconstructionist Judaism,
...Classical Reform Judaism,
...Neolog Judaism,
...Jewish Renewal,
...Humanist Judaism (Rabbi Sherwin Wine)
...Jewish Science (the counterpart to "Christian" Science)
...Post-denominational Jews,
...Chabad-focused (Noachide) law-abiding Jews...
...and even smaller groups I've shot past...
...along with diverse Messianic components...

Whew!!!! Talk about "sickenly thick...irony"!!!!

I mean in during Jesus' day, some Judaistic sects believed in a resurrection; others didn't; some supported "civil disobedience" (zealots), others didn't; some believed in marriage & having kids, others -- like the Essenes -- didn't; some OT kings routed false worship centers in their midst; many kings in a row didn't! Some embraced polygamy; others didn't! Some embraced concubines as "sub-wives"; others didn't.

And you are supposedly preaching from some "purity-supposed 'higher' ground?"

18 posted on 02/22/2013 4:44:31 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Elsie; brent13a

(Oh, gave Brent a few things to ponder in posts 16 & 18)


19 posted on 02/22/2013 4:47:33 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

It’ll be more like IGNORE.


20 posted on 02/22/2013 5:14:39 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: brent13a; Colofornian

And let’s not forget the Sabbateans, the followers of Sabbatai Zevi in the 17the century. He was a nutcase Kabbalist who claimed to be the Messiah. It caused sharp division in Judaism, most believing his claims, a minority vehemently opposing them. Doctrinally united Judaism, right.

By the way, almost the whole of Judaism at that time fell for Sabbatai. The Muslims captured him, brought him before their authorities, and demanded of him, “you say your the Messiah, lets see you work a miracle to prove it.” He couldn’t, they told him, convert to Islam or we kill you. He converted to Islam.

Along comes Brent castigating Christians for believing in Jesus as Messiah. He proved his Messiahship beyond question by all his miracles. And, unlike the false Messiah of the vast majority of Jews in the 17th century, when brought to trial over his claims of Messiahship, he chose death.

Judaism has had a number of false Messiah’s, Rabbi Schneerson of the Chabad is one of the latest. Seems they’ll fall for just about any nutcase than comes along, rather than believe in the true one, Jesus Christ. Go figure.


21 posted on 02/22/2013 6:28:41 PM PST by sasportas
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To: sasportas; brent13a
(Thanks for the addition -- Sabbatean Kabbalist 'Judaism' -- to the list)

(More Judaic "unity," eh Brent???)

22 posted on 02/22/2013 7:55:44 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Elsie

Thanks for posting the list of rules for LDS Missionaries. Here’s my favorite and it’s good to remember that these young men and women are volunteers, as in they don’t get paid, but have to put up with a lot of hate and crap from mean-spirited folks.

“146.Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.”


23 posted on 02/23/2013 12:56:51 PM PST by District13 (Obama scares me)
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To: District13; Elsie; All
Thanks for posting the list of rules for LDS Missionaries. Here’s my favorite and it’s good to remember that these young men and women are volunteers, as in they don’t get paid, but have to put up with a lot of hate and crap from mean-spirited folks. “146.Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.”

District13, here I my fave rules from Elz' list:

Rule #72: 72. Do not arise before your companion.

(one lds missionary to the other, "We will now rise in unison like robotic clones...1...2...3!")

Rule #60: Never be alone.

(Evidentiary item #1 as to how controlling the Lds church can be: "Don't be alone. Ever. For two years straight! You can't even go to the bathroom alone!")

Rule #75: Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.

("But missionary president. Honest. I was trying to obey Rule #60 perfectly when my missionary companion stepped out for a few moments...and she was the only one around...and so I had this huge moral dilemma...Do I obey rule #60 or rule #75????")

Rule #41: Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.

(Evidentiary item #2 as to how controlling the Lds church is!)

Rule #133: Do not spend more than your companion.

Ya know, if you give 9.95% of your income to the Mormon church, you have broken the law of consecration by not tithing and are ineligible for temple access. By .05% you can...miss your daughter's wedding and be kept out of God's presence forever! (Not to mention flunk becoming a full-grown god!)

Well, likewise here, what happens if you spend five cents more than your companion? Haven't you just broken rule #133? And isn't this a rule bound to be broken? So, rather than tempt their Lds missionaries into breaking #133 whenever they buy something, why don't they just make a new rule to ensure it doesn't get broken. Change rule #133 to: "Buy identical items in the same quantity." (Simple, eh?)

Rule 109: Provide community service.

Rule 111: Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.

Likewise, if you obey Rule 109, but go 3 minutes over rule 111, you have just obeyed rule 109, but simultaneously have disobeyed rule 111! (Boy, a legalistic minefield!)

24 posted on 02/23/2013 9:48:37 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: District13
Here’s my favorite and it’s good to remember that these young men and women are volunteers, as in they don’t get paid, but have to put up with a lot of hate and crap from mean-spirited folks.

So are these: and just as brainwashed...




25 posted on 02/24/2013 3:11:22 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
... but have to put up with a lot of hate and crap from mean-spirited folks.

AWWww...

...they know what will face them going in!



 
 
Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

 
 
Timeline...    Subject...
 
0:59           "Anti-Mormons..."
1:16           "ATTACK the faith you have..."
2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."
3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."


26 posted on 02/24/2013 3:12:57 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
... but have to put up with a lot of hate and crap from mean-spirited folks.

Well; guess who started it...

(Didja miss reply #10?)

27 posted on 02/24/2013 3:14:06 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
... but have to put up with a lot of hate and crap from mean-spirited folks.

Then there are the 'good' folks who pat them on the head and politely say they do not want to listen and send then only their way.

28 posted on 02/24/2013 3:15:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
Then there are the CHRISTIAN folks who don't seem to UNDERSTAND the fate that is down the road for these folks, and fail to give the TRUTH to them; even when they've been SENT to THEIR door!
29 posted on 02/24/2013 3:17:18 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
...there are the CHRISTIAN folks who don't seem to UNDERSTAND ...

Acts 8:30

And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?


SURELY; as CHRISTIANS, it is our DUTY to bring UNDERSTANDING to those who are VERY mis-informed by what they are reading (and hearing and being taught) on their own.


"Study to show thyself approved..."

30 posted on 02/24/2013 3:21:09 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
??


...send theM ONly their way.

31 posted on 02/24/2013 3:24:15 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian

Re: Messiah and [OT]:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Classic Jewish (ie, orthodox) Judaism views the ‘spirit of G-d...hovering...’ as the (light of the) Messiah, waiting to be revealed... not much longer we hope.


32 posted on 02/24/2013 6:57:55 PM PST by Phinneous
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