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Pastor Mike Hoggard of Bethel Church - A LIAR and FALSE PROPHET!
ConstitutionallySpeaking ^ | March 10, 2013 | ConstitutionallySpeaking

Posted on 03/10/2013 11:58:35 AM PDT by patlin

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To: mdmathis6
Well, the article you posted was muddy, not very informative; therefore not very edifying!

Then why did you respond to it?

51 posted on 03/10/2013 2:54:41 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: mdmathis6; patlin

>> “Well, the article you posted was muddy, not very informative; therefore not very edifying!” <<

.
That was an understatement!

The article was obviously written by someone in a rage.


52 posted on 03/10/2013 2:54:46 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: patlin

How many ‘Ways’ do the Scriptures speak of? Two, His Way and the way of disobedience. We have a choice to make and the lie that the “Hoggards” of the world preach is that there is third way when there is not. This is not my truth, it is His Truth, the Truth that put on flesh and died for our sins so that we could go and sin no more.


I see... you do realize Jesus never advocated reading the bible for truth.. ever..
He advocating going to the Holy Spirit to learn of ALL truth..
BUT to do that you MUST believe the Holy Spirit is THERE and will aid you in that pursuit..

If you do not have an invisible friend(Holy SPirit) THEN.. you MUST go to the Bible to learn of “truth”..
Most do that.. you know... worship the bible.. have no need of a Holy Spirit..

Jesus said, GO TO the Holy Spirit NOT read the bible..
Which some do, but most DO NOT..

Example: He said he would write his words in your heart not on rice paper.. which is much more practical.. Bible worshippers are much more common than friends of the Holy Spirit..


53 posted on 03/10/2013 2:57:41 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: ladyL

He’s writing them in our hearts and in our minds; no other way we can do it. I’ve never heard of the Hoggard guy; but I’ll take grace any day.- We may be thinking we’ve got it all figured out and that we’re not so bad after all; but in reality all our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him.


54 posted on 03/10/2013 2:58:35 PM PDT by Twinkie (JOHN 3:16)
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To: mdmathis6; patlin

>> “The big issue with the Sabbath is none of us ultimately know if the Saturday or Sunday that some us may call the Sabbath (or not)...is actually the Sabbath” <<

.
Sorry, but that is a provably false belief.

The word contains sufficient mention of astronomic events to prove astronomically that our days of the week are consistent with the beginning.


55 posted on 03/10/2013 2:59:52 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: patlin; mdmathis6

>> “Again, the Sabbath was not and never will be a day of fasting as it is His day of celebrating all that He created.” <<

.
Absolutely true.


56 posted on 03/10/2013 3:01:44 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: patlin

So what? In the absence of accurate records going back to the day of Creation as to exactly how many days it has been, ANY day of the week is an arbitrary choice. Pick a day and call it the Sabbath.


57 posted on 03/10/2013 3:10:10 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: PapaBear3625

>> “ Pick a day and call it the Sabbath.” <<

.
You wish?


58 posted on 03/10/2013 3:11:44 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: delacoert

This is akin to the faction of Evangelicals who proclaim using any text but the KJV will get one a trip to the infernal regions.


59 posted on 03/10/2013 3:23:22 PM PDT by robowombat
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To: hosepipe
Jesus also told us that the ‘seed’ of the good fruit is the Word of God (Lk 8:11)

He also told us that the spirit that is sent to us is the ‘Spirit of Truth’ and that truth will lead us in walking righteously before the Father as Jesus walked righteously before the Father. (John 14-17)

Jesus say that He is the Way, the Truth and Life to which I agree so what is the Way, the Truth and Life?

Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the Law of the LORD. 2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart. 3 They also do no iniquity (transgression / lawlessnes): they walk in his ways. 4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy Law is the truth.

Psa 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy Commandments are truth.

Psa 119:160 Thy Word is truth from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Deu 32:46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this Law. 47 For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life,

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged,

Is not God our Father, our ultimate Father to whom we are to honor by obeying just as Jesus honored Him through His obedience? Was it not Jesus, the Word of God that put on flesh the one who spoke the Words of God to Moses? According to Jesus it was.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

The Son came to rightly teach the Way of the Father, not to choose a new people to walk in disobedience to the Father. It has been the Son from the beginning. First with and in the Name of the Father and then in the flesh with the Name of Salvation.

Psa 118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. (salvation = Jesus His Greek name or Yeshua His Hebrew name)

Heb 4:8 For if Joshua (same Greek word for the name Jesus) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

AND I do want all to know and understand that I am in NO WAY saying that we can not worship on Sunday. But to claim that Sunday replaces His seventh day Sabbath is putting the the doctrines of man above the Way of God as the Word of God that put on flesh gave it to us. It was these kinds of uusuroing God's authority that Jesus made a mockery of by nailing them to the cross.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of dogma that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew (mockery) of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

60 posted on 03/10/2013 3:30:36 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: robowombat

The KJV only evangelists are wholly mislead.


61 posted on 03/10/2013 3:33:00 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

But you don't judge. You only speak the Word of God in power.

62 posted on 03/10/2013 3:39:59 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: patlin

Problem with all these King James guys, is that they elevate it at almost the same level as Christ Himself. The Word of God will be preserved. Flame away, your position is indefensible.


63 posted on 03/10/2013 3:48:39 PM PDT by vpintheak (Occupy your Brain!)
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To: patlin

That is a good attitude -- one that is humble and teachable, apparently.

In I Cor. 11:2-16, it appears that scripture teaches an obedient, Christian woman must cover her head. How can you ignore that?

64 posted on 03/10/2013 3:50:44 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: delacoert
NO dictionary defines ‘mislead’ as meaning to pass final sentencing on someone that makes one the final ‘judge’ over a man's future destination. The word ‘judge’ is also frequently misused as ‘judge’ has several different applications. For one, there is the judging as one does when selecting fruit and then there is judging as passing sentence on someone. We are called to the former but we are to abstain from the latter.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. Luk 8:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. Luk 8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

65 posted on 03/10/2013 3:55:17 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: editor-surveyor; patlin

You guys rock!


66 posted on 03/10/2013 4:13:26 PM PDT by STYRO (War sucks. Living in slavery sucks even worse.)
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To: delacoert
In context, 1 Cor 11 begins by speaking that Messiah is the covering for the husband and the covering for the husband then is the same covering for the wife. But let's set that aside and read verses 13-15.

1Co 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Our covering is defined by nature around us and who sustains all nature around us. It is the Word of God that sustains all life and that Word of God put on flesh and it is through Him that our sins are covered before the Father as long as we have it in our hearts to remain faithful to the Word of God that put on flesh to cover our sins.

There is also another place that Paul speaks of the believing woman being the covering for the unbelieving husband, so one must be sure not to take Paul out of context.

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

So our covering is the same as that of nature no matter the sex, male or female, because as long as the believing stays under Messiah's covering, then God still has the ability to work His work in bringing the unbelieving one into belief.

Judaism and many other religions have twisted the Word of God to their own destruction by putting burdens on the children of God where God put no such burdens such head coverings and no cooking on the Sabbath. NO WHERE in Scripture will one find such commands as these. Even certain ancient Jewish rabbis agree there are no such commands from God in regards to head coverings as well no cooking on the Sabbath. These were the true priests of God and the kind that left Pharisaic legalism, such as Paul did, to walk in Spirit and Truth.

67 posted on 03/10/2013 4:15:18 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

You used the word 'mislead' in your judgement of "KJV evangelists."

It appears that you are really quite nuanced when you say that you do not judge.

68 posted on 03/10/2013 4:15:29 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: patlin
There is also another place that Paul speaks of the believing woman being the covering for the unbelieving husband, so one must be sure not to take Paul out of context.

So other scriptures provide light in properly interpreting and understanding. Taking "the whole counsel of God” as in Acts 20:27, is necessary?

69 posted on 03/10/2013 4:23:07 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: STYRO

Yeshua is the Rock!


70 posted on 03/10/2013 4:33:55 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: hosepipe; patlin

>> “Jesus said, GO TO the Holy Spirit NOT read the bible..” <<

.
Nonsense!

How many times did Yeshua say “it is written?”

Yeshua refered to the written scriptures in EVERY teaching that he presented. He rejected all that was not in accordance with his scriptures.

Tokanot!


71 posted on 03/10/2013 4:45:41 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor; Whosoever

How many times did Yeshua say “it is written?”


He was a Rabbi.. why not?.. it was expected of him by corrupted clergy to provide proof of religious treason..

So he used “THEIR” scripture to expose them.. of “their” spiritual treason..
The Jewish Rabbi’s used the Torah... much the same... as Christian RAbbi’s use the New Testament now..

To lead AWAY from GOD.. toward their dogma’s.. and “their church’s”.. i.e. sheep pen’s..
Little has changed..

Some worship the bible and some bypass the bible altogether and worship their church, no middleman(except clergy).. which may be more honest..
Idolatry in your face.. an idol need not be a graven image.. merely a perceived one..


72 posted on 03/10/2013 5:09:37 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: delacoert

Define ‘whole council of God’ as you believe it to be.


73 posted on 03/10/2013 5:09:52 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: vpintheak
Much of the venom in the KJV dispute seems to originate with James Ruckman or his followers. Ruckman strikes me as the classic example of someone who went into the ministry for all the wrong reasons and a couple of them are using the pulpit to exorcise his own demons and using the pulpit as a ticket to psychological power satisfaction.
74 posted on 03/10/2013 5:10:57 PM PDT by robowombat
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To: delacoert
You say I passed judgment, now i ask you to define what that judgment is you claim I made. Is it passing sentence or is it discerning the fruit whether it be good or bad? Did I say someone is going here or there or did I merely state a fact of the state of the fruit?
75 posted on 03/10/2013 5:12:21 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: robowombat
I assure you the ONLY reason I am using the KJV is because that is the version of Scripture that is used against me for who I follow and who I choose to imitate as Paul told us to do.

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Better translated as ...

1Co 11:1 Become imitators of me, as I also am of Messiah.

76 posted on 03/10/2013 5:16:09 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: hosepipe

“Their scripture” was his scripture.


77 posted on 03/10/2013 5:22:33 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: hosepipe
“he used “THEIR” scripture”

So then when Paul wrote to Timothy, that means Timothy also had a different Scripture to follow than we do?

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Now since the "New Testament" as we know it today did not exist in Paul or Timothy's time, and neither of them even had a clue that the letters they wrote would become part the "Scriptures" for "our time", just what Scriptures did Timothy know from his childhood that fitted him for his work for God through his belief in Jesus as Messiah if not the only 'Written Word of God' that existed until the 4th century AD?

FYI ... the only word used for "Law" as in the "Law of Moses" is the Greek word "nomos". The Greek word "dogma" translated as ordinances in the KJV in Col 2:14 nailing to the cross, only pertains to the laws and decrees made by men, NOT by God.

G1378 Total Occurrences: 6 δογμα (2) Dan_6:12, Luk_2:1 δογμασιν (2) Eph_2:15, Col_2:14 δογματα (1) Act_16:4 δογματων (1) Act_17:7

G1378 Total LXX Occurrences: 12 δογμα (10) Dan_2:13, Dan_3:10, Dan_3:29, Dan_4:6, Dan_6:8-10 (3), Dan_6:12, Dan_6:15, Dan_6:26 δογματι (2) Dan_3:12, Dan_6:13

78 posted on 03/10/2013 5:37:39 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

“...as long as in our hearts we are doing our best to obey the Father as the Son obeyed the Father.”

Can you tell me where doing our best is in the New Testament?


79 posted on 03/10/2013 5:49:17 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: Chaguito
Can you show me where God outlines all the intricate details as exactly how do do everything? Or is it that just perhaps He leaves certain parts of it for us to discern in our hearts whether we think we are truly leaving it up to Him to lead us or are we relying on the ‘dogma’ of man to tell us how to guard and do His Word?

Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. 3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they (those who read aloud only from the Law of Moses from the seat of Moses) bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

In other words, when they are done, they then leave the seat of Moses to preach to the crowd how to guard and do Moses according to their dogmas.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. ... 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

And how do we know the disciples continued in the tradition spoken of by Jesus of the reading of Moses every Sabbath?

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day. 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole assembly,

Doing our best means learning as we ‘grow’ in Messiah and not making the same error over and over again when we come to the knowledge that it is an error by the hearing of Moses being read every Sabbath.

80 posted on 03/10/2013 6:08:46 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: editor-surveyor

“Their scripture” was his scripture.


Jesus didn’t have scripture, he was scripture.. incarnate..
Jesus HAD no, nor needed any scripture..
Meaning you seem to be WRONG..

Was Jesus GOD or merely a delegate of authority, a delegated officer.?..
Which is the question that must be answered on this issue..
He was one or the other.. unless he was both..
I tend to think both..


81 posted on 03/10/2013 6:13:14 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: patlin

Already done when I cited Acts 20:27.

Let God speak His truth with the power of His Word.

82 posted on 03/10/2013 6:13:23 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: Chaguito

Can you tell me where doing our best is in the New Testament?


The Golden Rule.... 2 commandments...


83 posted on 03/10/2013 6:16:19 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: patlin

I will examine this.


84 posted on 03/10/2013 6:18:39 PM PDT by sauropod (I will not comply)
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To: patlin

You are straining at gnats and swallowing camels. ‘Pod.


85 posted on 03/10/2013 6:22:24 PM PDT by sauropod (I will not comply)
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To: patlin
Really, why did Jesus tells us to be careful lest our crown be taken away if we couldn’t loose it by some action on our part?

So....

How many times does Christ have to die on the cross?

Be specific.

86 posted on 03/10/2013 6:24:55 PM PDT by sauropod (I will not comply)
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To: patlin
From

Or any of the vagaries laying between. You chose. You said without qualification that you weren't "here to judge."

87 posted on 03/10/2013 6:27:35 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: patlin

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Paul’s opinion... he can have an opinion!... why not.?.
Your opinion of Paul’s opinion is just another opinion..
Thats what the Talmud is.. teachers opinions about other teachers opinions.. i.e. Mishna/Gemara..

Pretty much what the New Testament is..... like: “a TALMUD”..
Not only that but Church’s are pretty much Synagogues..
Not a lot changes with sheep pens.. just “word” changes..
Like Commies are now Progressives.. and anarchists are now democrats.. same basic procedures..


88 posted on 03/10/2013 6:29:04 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: sauropod

Pod;.... LoL...


89 posted on 03/10/2013 6:33:12 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
I am here to serve...

;-)


90 posted on 03/10/2013 6:35:37 PM PDT by sauropod (I will not comply)
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To: hosepipe

You’re just talking in circles.

The scriptures are Yeshua’s, He put his security code into them as they were written. His name is laced throughout Torah and the prophets in ELS messages whose probability checks beyond imaginable numbers.

To deny the scriptures is to deny Yeshua.


91 posted on 03/10/2013 6:38:06 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: sauropod; patlin

>> “How many times does Christ have to die on the cross?” <<

.
Wrong question.

Your “crown” is not your salvation.


92 posted on 03/10/2013 6:41:23 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

Oh don’t be sorry...I was making a little joke about God resting on a Thursday....I do know that the ancient Babylonians were accomplished astronomers and with the advances made by the Gregorian calendar system time can be traced back very accurately for thousands of years. The thrust of posting had to do with the citing of Romans 14 to back a claim for Saturday being the Sabbath and my pointing out that that according to Roman’s 14 that it was not an important matter to quibble about. There are bigger issues facing Christians in this day and age and the arguement over a Saturday or Sunday sabbath pales into insignificance. Most likely the real Sabbath takes place on a Saturday but the real issue becomes whether or not...Saturday or Sunday, one gets together with like minded folk to worship God or one neglects to do so.


93 posted on 03/10/2013 6:54:38 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Rest assured, Mankind is loved....both completely and severely!)
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To: hosepipe
I completely understand the semantics of the change of the words in the Scriptures from their pure form which is defined by Genesis to Malachi.

One can not have it both ways. Either Paul's word's are inspired by God as taught by Christian doctrine or they are not. Either Paul is a heretic and false prophet according to the Word of God spoken through Moses in Dt 13 & 18, or it is simply that Paul words have been misunderstood and therefore they have been misinterpreted as Peter testifies to in 2 Pet 3:14-17. I prefer to believe the latter and therefore I call out the heresy when I hear it in order to turn those in error back to His Truth.

I also do not believe the Words of Jesus to be 'Talmud' as He is the Word of God and only spoke the Word of the God the Father. And I also do not equate Paul's teachings or for that matter, any of the others to be Talmud as they never taught anything but the pure Word of God as exempliflied to them by the Word of God that put on flesh.

Talmud is 'dogma', the oral 'law of man' and Judaism does not dispute this. They merely use Dt 17:8-10, skipping over verse 11 to usurp the authority of God just as Roman Christendom uses Mt 16:18 to usurp the authority of God by proclaiming that they now have ultimate authority over the interpretation of His Word.

The only thing that changed for believers in Jesus as the true Messiah was the seat of the Pharisaic oral law that we all now have to contend with.

94 posted on 03/10/2013 6:56:08 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: sauropod
You are straining at gnats and swallowing camels

How so?

95 posted on 03/10/2013 6:56:53 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: mdmathis6

>> “ Roman’s 14 that it was not an important matter to quibble about” <<

.
I don’t think that was exactly what Paul meant.

He was pointing out that those that are not of a mind to respect the sabbath would not be likely to change their mind, so it was a waste of time, and a source of unneeded division.

The sabbaths are important to “the wise virgin,” and the readyness for Yeshua’s return, but not all members of any particular congregation are wise virgins.


96 posted on 03/10/2013 7:03:59 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: patlin

>> “The only thing that changed for believers in Jesus as the true Messiah was the seat of the Pharisaic oral law that we all now have to contend with.” <<

.
Yep, the ‘pharisees’ moved to Rome.


97 posted on 03/10/2013 7:06:36 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: sauropod
Who said Christ had to die more than once? Certainly not I and neither did James.

Jas 5:19 Brothers, if anyone among you goes astray from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the straying of his way shall save a life from death and cover a great number of sins.

Hence the false doctrine of once saved always saved. It seems that James never got that message and for that matter, neither did the Word of God, our Messiah.

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the gardener. 2 “Every branch in Me that bears no fruit He takes away. And every branch that bears fruit He prunes, so that it bears more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the Word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Stay in Me, and I stay in you. As the branch is unable to bear fruit of itself, unless it stays in the vine, so neither you, unless you stay in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who stays in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit. Because without Me you are able to do naught! 6 “If anyone does not stay in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up. And they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:7 “If you stay in Me, and My Words stay in you, you shall ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you. 8 “In this My Father is esteemed, that you bear much fruit, and you shall be My taught ones. 9 “As the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you. Stay in My love. 10 “If you guard My commands, you shall stay in My love, even as I have guarded My Father’s commands and stay in His love. Footnote:See 14:12-17.

John 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he shall do also. And greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father. 13 “And whatever you ask in My Name, that I shall do, in order that the Father might be esteemed in the Son. 14 “If you ask whatever in My Name, I shall do it. 15 “If you love Me, you shall guard My commands.1 Footnote: 1See Ex. 20:6, vv. 21&23, 1 John 5:2-3, 2 John v. 6. 16 “And I shall ask the Father, and He shall give you another Helper, to stay with you forever – 17 the Spirit of the Truth, whom the world is unable to receive, because it does not see Him or know Him. But you know Him, for He stays with you and shall be in you.

98 posted on 03/10/2013 7:06:57 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: editor-surveyor
I never truly understood the depth of the meaning of a “Pharisee of the order of the oral laws of man” until recently when I had the occasion to converse for a couple of weeks with a modern day Jewish Pharisee of the order of the Talmud. It was quite enlightening and most profitable and it ended with mutual respect for each others beliefs on both ends of the spectrum of Scripture interpretation. Neither trying to convert each other, just both displaying the Word of God to support our beliefs.
99 posted on 03/10/2013 7:14:26 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: editor-surveyor; mdmathis6
Again, can you point me to where Paul actually uses the word “Sabbath” in Romans 14 as to prove that Paul was actually speaking of the 4th Commandment and not to when a person fasts and when a person does not fast as Paul was well aware of the fact that the Sabbath was never a day for fasting and to do and teach such a thing, Paul would have been teaching and preaching against the Word of God.
100 posted on 03/10/2013 7:19:13 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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