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I Love Talking To Ex-Mormon Atheists
Mormon Coffee (blog.mrm.org) ^ | March 7, 2013 | Aaron Shafovaloff

Posted on 03/12/2013 9:27:52 AM PDT by Colofornian

I did not expect to meet so many atheists when I moved to Utah seven years ago. But I should have known better: America as a whole is secularizing, and Mormonism itself has a “scorched earth policy.” My Mormon girlfriend in high school once essentially said, “If the LDS Church isn’t true, I don’t know that I could ever believe in God.” Mormonism already is a form of atheism: it denies the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, first, most high God, and instead teaches a kind of naturalism or materialism: everything is matter, even spirits, and everything is subject to eternal laws of ultimate nature, even the gods. It feeds its people conspiracy theories about the corruption of the Bible, and it scares the heck out of Mormons over non-Mormon churches: if you don’t stay with the One True Church, you’ll have to settle for an abominable evangelical church with a corrupt pastor who is a minister of Satan.

That is a colorful way of putting it, but you get the point.

It is depressing that so many people leave Mormonism only to become agnostics or atheists. Fortunately, atheists have a hard time staying atheists. Their children are probably much more open to the Biblical gospel than Mormons are. I suspect God is up to something — he has multi-generational plans we’ve never dreamed of. If giving people the truth about Mormonism’s history and the truth about the Biblical gospel of Jesus Christ statistically increases the odds of a person becoming a self-confessed agnostic or atheist, then so be it. God is sovereign and I am not here to be a social engineer or to play God. My job as an ambassador of Jesus is to preach the word of truth in love, and let the chips fall where they may. Fortunately, there is the fruit of ex-Mormon Christians to celebrate.

I used to be intimidated to talk to atheists. They are, in my experience, generally confident about their atheism and have tough questions. But over time I discovered that the average atheist hasn’t read a substantive book defending atheism or theism, and gets his intellectual prowess from…image memes and YouTube. Today, I like to start off conversations with atheists by asking, “Have you ever read a good book defending atheism or theism?” Usually they haven’t. “Have you ever heard any good arguments for the existence of God or the resurrection of Jesus?” Usually they haven’t. “What are the strongest arguments for theism or Christianity, and what about them do you find lacking?” Blank stare. “What do you think are some of the most difficult questions for atheism to answer?” Ughhh…

These are great introductory teaching moments. “Would you mind if I shared a few good arguments for the existence of God and for the resurrection of Jesus?” What an awesome opportunity, especially when it culminates in a presentation of the most beautiful (and true) story in the world: God, yes, God, became a man, suffered with us and for us, and paid our penalty on the humiliating and shameful cross, and showed us the best display of sacrificial love there has ever been, simultaneously vindicating the righteousness of God, raising three days letter, showing us that the Lord Jesus Christ has all authority under heaven and earth and infinite power to keep his promises.

My favorite argument for the existence of God is the “moral argument for God.” I push it really hard:

1. If there is no God, there are no objective moral values or duties.

2. There are objective moral values and duties.

3. Therefore, God exists.

The really interesting thing about this argument is that atheists disagree with each other and don’t know it. Some affirm both premises and simply haven’t followed them through to the conclusion. Some affirm premise #1 and disaffirm premise #2, others disaffirm premise #1 and affirm premise #2. Call me a rascal, but when I’m being dog-piled by atheists, I love to get them arguing with each other. The argument is a great way to simultaneously engage someone’s intellect, spiritual intuitions, and suppressed presuppositions, all at the same time.

You can hear more about the moral argument for God here. But don’t let YouTube suffice: read a good book. Some of you are, like me, at times utterly sick of reading about, thinking about, and discussing Mormonism. Take the opportunity to read some good literature that both engages atheism and supports the basics of Biblical Christianity. The ironic thing is that you can take what you learn and share it with not only your atheist neighbors, but also your Mormon neighbors. I dare say that all of the evidences, arguments, and Biblical declarations that atheists need to hear are things that Mormons equally need to hear. Mormons are atheists in embryo. As Mormons are, ex-Mormon atheists once were; as ex-Mormon atheists are, Mormons may be. To quote The Dark Knight Rises out of context: “There is a storm coming.” Mormon parents need to stop asking themselves, “Will my children remain in the LDS Church?”, and start asking, “When my children leave the LDS Church, will they believe in Jesus?” Not if, but when. It’s happening in Utah, and it’s happening fast. Mormons have a hard time imagining what being a Christian theist would be like outside of Mormonism. I want to help start this process of imagination.

Addendum: Ten Discussion Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

Is there anything you reasonably believe to be true, yet can’t empirically demonstrate?

Are there any objective moral values or duties?

Is torturing babies for fun morally objectively wrong?

Does atheism have a ‘problem of evil’?

Does every effect have a sufficient cause?

Do you trust your cognitive faculties?

To what extent and why?

Is an infinite regress possible?

Is it possible that God exists?

Is truth important for its own sake?

Is the question of God’s existence important?

Do you feel angst or sorrow over the absurdity of life?

What do you think of the person of Jesus?

Have you ever heard of the “trilemma”?

Philosophical discussion important, but secondary and supplemental to direct preaching. People are not only emotional and spiritual beings, but also intellectual beings, so I consider it a respectful and loving thing to engage a person intellectually.

We are all fools for something. I choose to be a fool for Jesus. “If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become ‘fools’ so that you may become wise.” (1 Corinthians 3:18) Be a “fool” with me and preach the ridiculous gospel of Jesus Christ. Self-confessed atheists are no different than the rest of us inadvertent “practical atheists” who sin as though God does not exist. We need to repent of trusting ourselves and cry out to Jesus in brokenhearted, child-like faith.

God is good, and Jesus has risen,

Aaron


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: atheists; exmormon; inman; lds; mormon; mormonism
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To: albionin

Sorry, you can not.
Morality comes from God, it is NOT defined by the individual - just the way it is.


101 posted on 03/12/2013 6:59:31 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: albionin
I think it is sad to depend on others to give your life meaning. If you mean that my life can have no meaning or purpose unless I serve others then I not only consider that wrong but evil

Let's go back to what you said earlier: "Life...needs NO external sanction or purpose."

Let me ask you point blank: Is there ANY social or ethical purpose in life? And, if so, how do you determine what that is?

102 posted on 03/12/2013 7:00:02 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: SeaHawkFan
I think most Mormons don’t know of all the immorality practiced by the church fathers.

Which 'church'?

103 posted on 03/12/2013 7:15:42 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; WilliamRobert
“Everytime I see something like this posted I know your hate and bigotry is working overtime.

Every time I see something like this from a MORMONism supporter; I know they have no FACTS with which to back up their accusations.

104 posted on 03/12/2013 7:17:08 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ejonesie22
Oh, that explains their unmathced support of Mitt ROmney...

Yup; it don't add up!

105 posted on 03/12/2013 7:17:44 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan; Jim Robinson
To my mind, tattling to Daddy is more than a little inappropriate in this case.

Tattling?

It appears to me it was a polite, "Hey Jim; I referred to one of your quotes in this reply."

(Just like I am doing now...)

106 posted on 03/12/2013 7:21:27 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan
I just disagree with you about how we should react to those who believe in false doctrines.

There is REacting and then there is ACTing.

107 posted on 03/12/2013 7:23:07 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan
Do you think Jews who are horribly offended by Christian attempts to convert them are justified?

When they or the Muzzies start claiming that THEY are the only 'christians' in the world...

108 posted on 03/12/2013 7:24:26 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: albionin

Ok, I get that an atheist wants to be relevant.
However, we can be in several states: moral, ethical or legal.
Morality is not defined by the individual, it IS founded in God - a place an atheist can not be.
Ethics which is founded in morality, also leaves the atheist in the wind.
So that leaves legal,,,,,the best an atheist can be is legal and yes even that is iffy.
I have said it before....that is the best you can be.


109 posted on 03/12/2013 7:24:42 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Sherman Logan
I must agree with you in that I find your position odd.

Even the LAW recognizes that there are such things as 'fighting words'.

That you are not disturbed by them is commendable.


http://www.google.com/search?q=legality+of+%27fighting+words%27&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7ADRA_enUS475

110 posted on 03/12/2013 7:26:33 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39

Remember indeed!

Now that Mitt is a footnote to history her absence has brought a more genteel atmosphere on FR.

(Do I have to ping her {courteously; of course} if I do NOT use her name in a reply?)


111 posted on 03/12/2013 7:29:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan
Seems to me my attitude is somewhat closer to that of Peter than yours is.

James son of Zebedee and his brother John set the standard for the rest of us Sons of Thunder.


Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear;


(Remind me not to aggravate you at the next Freeper get together! ;^)

112 posted on 03/12/2013 7:33:08 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Plus there is only one God, neither is there marriage in heaven.

Yeah; that's what their scripture seems to indicate as well; so where they get the TRINITY being abhorant is beyond me!!


 Mormon Trinity.

 

Mormon 7:7

And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

 

 

An 1830 statement titled "Testimony of Three Witnesses"—one statement signed by three men rather than three separate statements—was published at the end of the first edition of the Book of Mormon:

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, his brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seeen [sic] the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvellous [sic] in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


113 posted on 03/12/2013 7:35:11 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw

Seems like some folks on FR want OUR heads as well!


114 posted on 03/12/2013 7:36:13 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan

Seems to me my attitude is somewhat closer to that of Peter than yours is.
___________________________________________

Probably...

I havent had the LORD Jesus Christ get mad at me like he did to Peter...

“Get ye behind me Satan...”

Oh noez !!!!

Just how bad did that ugly attitude of Peter’s get to be that day that God Himself had to correct him ???


115 posted on 03/12/2013 7:37:41 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: albionin
I think that life is an end in itself.
It needs no external sanction or purpose.
My life has meaning to me and I need look no further than my self for a purpose.
I am the meaning and the purpose of my life.

I detect a common thought here.

I will assume that you are an atheist.

116 posted on 03/12/2013 7:39:03 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39
This PC moral cancer of "oh, don't take offense at offensive messages" must, IMO be defeated and I will continue to fight against it.

Where would you, a supposed Christian; ever get an idea like that?


 


 
Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23
 
  1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
  2.  "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
  3.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
  4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
  5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
  6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
  7.  they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
  8.  "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
  9.  And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
 10.  Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
 11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
 12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
 13.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 
 15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 
 16.  "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
 17.  You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
 18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
 19.  You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
 20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
 21.  And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
 22.  And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 24.  You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
 25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
 26.  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
 27.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
 28.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
 30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
 31.  So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
 32.  Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
 33.  "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
 34.  Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
 35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
 38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
 


Mark 7:26-27
 26.  The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
 27.  "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
 

And St. Paul chimes in...

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
 


117 posted on 03/12/2013 7:40:33 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: albionin
I am coming from a completely different metaphysics and epistemology than a Christian...

Ah...

I sensed something like this...

118 posted on 03/12/2013 7:42:51 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: albionin
You look at man and see only the potential for depravity.

Oh, NO!

Man IS depraved all right; but the POTENTIAL is VASTLY different!

119 posted on 03/12/2013 7:43:50 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: albionin
...the POTENTIAL is VASTLY different!

As you have noted.

But what does 'good' mean?

120 posted on 03/12/2013 7:44:33 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw
When Paul preached in Athens, the people rioted.......they were so offended.

Welll, here's the Bible's description of the "riot" in Athens.

Acts 17: 32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33 At that, Paul left the Council. 34 Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

According to the Bible, Paul caused a number of riots, notably in Ephesus and Jerusalem. But not in Athens.

121 posted on 03/12/2013 7:45:19 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: albionin
It is by denying that there is a standard and just doing whatever one feels like that is the cause of evil.

There's no such thing as evil.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

122 posted on 03/12/2013 7:45:45 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: albionin
I disagree.

We get this; but WHY?

123 posted on 03/12/2013 7:46:37 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: albionin
I would still have a purpose.

Right!

To get back home someday and deliver that package!

124 posted on 03/12/2013 7:47:48 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

are we rushing to the number ???

:)


125 posted on 03/12/2013 7:50:51 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian
Mormonism is indeed a form of atheism

That is a powerfully clarifying insight.

126 posted on 03/12/2013 7:52:28 PM PDT by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Everyone else gets sorted into the lower heavens, where “hell” is essentially to be eternally envious of the Mormons who were good and obedient enough to become gods.

Never understood that one, as I have absolutely no desire to be God, or even a god. Don't understand those who do have this desire.

For those who think I'm a Mormon apologist, that's far from the case. I've had a number of rather HWrws discussions with Mormons who are heavily into the "Mormon persecution" meme, which is a distortion of history IMO.

The real truth is that 19th century Mormons had a disastrous habit of starting and losing wars, then claiming religious persecution. 19th century western America had quite a large number of weird religious groups running around. For some obscure reason the Mormons were the only ones consistently involved in religious persecution.

One Mormon I had an extended discussion with claimed hundreds or thousands of Mormon deaths in the Missouri mob attacks. Tried for weeks to get him to document these claims. Actual numbers are probably well under 100, probably about half that.

Which means Mormons killed more in the single Mountain Meadows atrocity, the greatest atrocity committed in peacetime by American whites on American whites in our entire history, than Mormons were killed by the mobs.

127 posted on 03/12/2013 7:58:09 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
Seems to me my attitude is somewhat closer to that of Peter than yours is. Since it’s obviously a great deal harder to give your answer with “gentleness and respect” if you are greatly offended by the question.

Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

128 posted on 03/12/2013 7:59:15 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Elsie

To make your collection of 19th century religious rhetoric somewhat more comprehensive, you might want to look up how some 19th century American Protestants and Catholics talked about each other, not to mention what they had to say about Mormons.

If you go back a little farther 16th and 17th century “Christians” of various flavors reached a peak of denunciatory fervor that may never be reached again. Luther was a champ in this area.


129 posted on 03/12/2013 8:04:05 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
Tried for weeks to get him to document these claims


130 posted on 03/12/2013 8:09:13 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Religion Moderator

Okay. Was using “you” in the somewhat less than fully grammatical sense of “one,” which always seems a little awkward to me.

But if I’ve given offense, it was unintentional.


131 posted on 03/12/2013 8:12:26 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

HWrws = heated.

No idea where that came from.


132 posted on 03/12/2013 8:14:47 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

Paul preached and people rioted.........bottom line.
Your “lets all get along to get along” falls flat...bottom line.


133 posted on 03/12/2013 8:18:44 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Elsie

Apparently.....that is true.
Fortunately, Jesus The Christ took the big one for us, so no need to worry.


134 posted on 03/12/2013 8:19:55 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Sherman Logan

And yet, you defend mormonism.....weird at its face.


135 posted on 03/12/2013 8:21:56 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: stormer
You do realize that natural language is not actually bound by Aristotelian logic, don't you?

My favorite proof of this is the undoubted fact that saying a woman is "not unattractive" is not equivalent to saying she is attractive.

In many contexts in the natural use of English, just as in intuitionistic logic, NOT(NOT P) is weaker than P.

136 posted on 03/12/2013 9:34:31 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: The_Reader_David
I'm sorry, but words mean things. And I disagree with your contention regarding the "not unattractive" woman. It is equivalent with saying she is attractive.
137 posted on 03/12/2013 9:52:00 PM PDT by stormer
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To: albionin

“That is the problem. I am coming from a completely different metaphysics and epistemology than a Christian would have to hold to hold the beliefs he or she holds.”


It doesn’t take metaphysical, epistemological, blahblahizicalmological anything to understand your own nature. Even Nietzsche understood the blackness of despair, and his own inability to live up to his own philosophy. His philosophy was aimed not at those who were there now existing, but of a Overcomer who would come later, in another time. Ironically, the only people who will be able to live up to those standards is the Christian in his Resurrection body.

If you say that you yourself are not corrupt, then give me your code of moral conduct. Give me its dictates, what defines good behavior. How do you handle lust? How do you handle lies? How do you handle any of the problems you yourself face or think you face. And then tell me, after all of that, if you even keep your own standards. Or if, like a blind man, you are always grasping for them and failing to truly live up to them at all times.


138 posted on 03/12/2013 11:47:05 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Tennessee Nana
are we rushing to the number ???

No; the attrition rate of MORMON apologists available to post these days insures that the thread will fizzle long before then...

139 posted on 03/13/2013 4:43:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan
I've had a number of rather HWrws discussions with Mormons who are heavily into the "Mormon persecution" meme, which is a distortion of history IMO.

Speaking of distortion...



The following are the LYING images that MORMONism has produced, KNOWING that they represent something FALSE!!
 
 
   

140 posted on 03/13/2013 4:45:30 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan
To make your collection of 19th century religious rhetoric somewhat more comprehensive, you might want to look up how some 19th century American Protestants and Catholics talked about each other, not to mention what they had to say about Mormons.

Sorry; but the last time I did a thing like you suggest; all I found were TAME geese.


The most perfect religion EVER takes up enough of my time.

141 posted on 03/13/2013 4:47:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan
But if I’ve given offense, it was unintentional.

I've evidently done this on another similar thread; but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

142 posted on 03/13/2013 4:48:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: The_Reader_David

And not duck is just a duck.


143 posted on 03/13/2013 4:54:12 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Sherman Logan

Fingers doing the HArlem Shake...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504784_162-57568940-10391705/the-harlem-shake-phenomenon-keeps-going-strong-with-grandmas-and-military/


144 posted on 03/13/2013 5:01:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: The_Reader_David
In many contexts in the natural use of English, just as in intuitionistic logic, NOT(NOT P) is weaker than P.

In my laptop, NOT(NOT P) = P

145 posted on 03/13/2013 5:04:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
How do you handle any of the problems you yourself face or think you face. 'is weaker than' the problems you yourself DON'T face or think you DON'T face.
146 posted on 03/13/2013 5:05:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
...MORMON apologists available to post...

Ah... for the good old days of PD, and SD and DU!

147 posted on 03/13/2013 5:07:21 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ejonesie22

MORMONism is not all it’s quacked up to be...


148 posted on 03/13/2013 5:08:30 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

The Mormon church.


149 posted on 03/13/2013 6:41:47 AM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: Scoutmaster
I do know, from Pew and other polls, that a higher percentage of 'evangelical Christians' voted for Mitt Romney over Obama than did LDS members. Romney received only 78% of the LDS vote in 2012. Non-hispanic Catholics voted at a higher rate for Romney than did LDS voters.

First of all, my apologies for being late with a response. An intelligent post such as yours deserves an intelligent response, but I generally wait until the usual gaggle of idiots on these threads have punched themselves out with the usual cut and paste garbage.

While I would be interesting in seeing your link, I doubt the veracity of the data for these reasons:

  1. Actual voting data. The most Mormon county in the United States is Franklin County, Idaho at 92% which delivered a 92% vote for Mitt Romney according to Leip's election atlas. This was up from 86% for McCain the previous cycle. The increase can probably be attributed just as much to the four years under Obama as the thrill of voting for a fellow tribesman. You will get similar results when you look at much large counties with overwhelming majority Mormon populations such as Utah County, Utah or Madison County, Idaho.
  2. By contrast, if you look at the near equally heavily Evangelical counties near the Red River in Texas and Oklahoma and the Texas Panhandle, most of the results will be in the 70% to 80% range. Damn impressive, to be sure, but not more that the Mormon majority counties. One notable exception is King County, Texas, which delivered a whopping 96% for Romney (and 93% for McCain). But with only 150 or so voters, I don't think you can extrapolate a trend here.
  3. While I have little doubt that Mass attending, active, practicing, non-Hispanic Catholics delivered overwhelming majorities for the GOP ticket maybe comparable, but probably somewhat less, than the Evangelical counties cited in point #2, the very fact that you have to filter it so narrowly to compare with a Mormon sample which includes non-church attending, non-practicing, non-race filtered cultural Mormons only probably means you've lost the argument. I could test that supposition with actual results data but I know of no overwhelmingly Catholic counties in the United States to compare with the Evangelical majority Red River and panhandle counties in Texas and Oklahoma or Mormon majority counties in Utah or Idaho.
  4. The only thing close might be the counties near me in SW Pennsylvania where Catholics enjoy, if not a majority, at least a strong plurality. With the exception of Allegheny (Pittsburgh/big city/large population of minority and deceased voters), we delivered a much narrower GOP majority in the 50-60% range.

The actual data therefore indicates that predominately white, practicing religious voters of all stripes vote for the more conservative candidate in numbers comparable to, but still somewhat less than Mormon voters as a whole, including Mormons who drink beer, don't attend church or have any affiliation other than cultural.

150 posted on 03/13/2013 7:27:35 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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