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I Love Talking To Ex-Mormon Atheists
Mormon Coffee (blog.mrm.org) ^ | March 7, 2013 | Aaron Shafovaloff

Posted on 03/12/2013 9:27:52 AM PDT by Colofornian

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To: greyfoxx39; Jim Robinson

To my mind, tattling to Daddy is more than a little inappropriate in this case.

I have been perfectly polite to you, and to the extent of my ability to everybody else I’ve ever spoken to on this forum.

I believe that American Christians who believe their own religion to be true do not have a moral right to be offended by people of other religions who believe the same about their own faiths and express that belief politely. To my mind, this smacks waaaay to much of the whole Muslim blasphemy thing.

Personally, I believe Christ could have had a rational and polite conversation with a Hindu or Buddhist monk, or with a pagan Greek priest. Possibly he did. He would not have budged from his position that they were in error, but he wouldn’t have tried to silence them.

The Apostle Paul in Athens calmly discussed Greek religion with his listeners, and even drew analogies from it to illustrate the truth of Christianity. He recognized there were truths even in pagan religion, though obscured by a whole bunch of lies.


51 posted on 03/12/2013 2:08:09 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: greyfoxx39; Jim Robinson

BTW, I agree with Jim that the Book of Mormon is false doctrine.

I just disagree with you about how we should react to those who believe in false doctrines.


52 posted on 03/12/2013 2:09:55 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan; Tennessee Nana
So, if a polite mormon missionary tells you that you are wrong in your statement, "I believe nobody can come to the Father except through Christ", that you can't come to Christ unless you bow to the mormon regulations and rituals it is not adequate reason to become offended?

There are many, many Christians who would disagree with you. As I stated earlier, IMO it's comparable to someone saying, "Sherman, that child of yours is the ugliest thing I have ever seen."

It's obvious your mileage may vary.

This has been one of the strangest defenses of mormonism that I have seen on FR. One would wonder just what you WOULD find offensive.

53 posted on 03/12/2013 2:15:12 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Agree to disagree.

Their belief that I will burn in hell if I don’t believe as they do does nothing to put me there, any more than your similar belief about them of itself has any effect on their ultimate fate.

I’m curious if you are equally offended by Jews who believe Christ was a false prophet, many of whom have said some remarkably impolite things about Him over the centuries. Do you think Jews who are horribly offended by Christian attempts to convert them are justified? How about similar Muslim reactions? I’m not talking about violent physical reactions, just offense that someone has made an attempt to share their faith.

I must agree with you in that I find your position odd. Possibly you are correct in how most Christians would respond, but to my mind it’s still an odd reaction.


54 posted on 03/12/2013 2:22:00 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: greyfoxx39
So, if a polite mormon missionary tells you that you are wrong in your statement, "I believe nobody can come to the Father except through Christ unless you bow to the mormon regulations and rituals"

Technically I believe this hypothetical Mormon would agree with my statement. He is disagreeing about the method by which one must approach the Father through Christ.

55 posted on 03/12/2013 2:24:01 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: metmom

Thanks for the ping metmom


56 posted on 03/12/2013 2:25:29 PM PDT by Syncro ("catholic" means universal. Simple Christianity receives all who believe on Jesus and are born again)
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To: Sherman Logan
To my mind, tattling to Daddy is more than a little inappropriate in this case.

Point #1, it is common to ping another FReeper when they are mentioned in a post, but perhaps you aren't aware of that courtesy.

Point #2, IMO JR may very well wish to disagree with the statements that you have made on this thread....which HE may find as "inappropriate" such as the following:

"I believe that American Christians who believe their own religion to be true do not have a moral right to be offended by people of other religions who believe the same about their own faiths and express that belief politely. To my mind, this smacks waaaay to much of the whole Muslim blasphemy thing.

Side note: The mormon religion began with blasphemy and its leaders believed THEY had a "moral right" to castigate and slander "all other creeds" from the beginning...except for Islam, which they have made common cause with.

Some examples from mormon sources:

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/16673/LDS-church-gymnasium-open-for-Muslim-worship-services?s_cid=search_queue&utm_source=search_queue
LDS church gymnasium open for Muslim worship services
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a Mormon church on Old Highway 94 in St. Charles,
provides space every Friday in its gymnasium for Muslims to spread their prayer rugs and worship." (August 24, 2010)
http://www.mormontimes.com/article/631/BYU-publishes-classic-text-written-by-Islamic-philosopher?s_cid=search_queue&utm_source=search_queue
BYU publishes classic text written by Islamic philosopher
"The publication of Avicenna's work is "an acknowledgment of the great contributions Arabic and Islamic civilization have made to the world,"
Daniel C. Peterson said. "It is an expression of respect for Muslim tradition on the part of Latter-day Saints."
http://www.mormontimes.com/article/17289/Mormons-Muslims-get-along-by-creating-books-not-destroying-them?s_cid=search_queue&utm_source=search_queue
Mormons, Muslims get along by creating books, not destroying them
"The threat by Pastor Terry Jones to burn the Qur'an was all over the news. What if, instead of destroying Muslim books,
we were actually to create them, by translating the classic works of the Islamic golden age into English?
"That is the project Dan Peterson, a professor of Arabic at Brigham Young University has been engaged in for more than a decade,
a project that has built tremendous goodwill and resulted in many lasting friendships between Muslims and those of the Mormon faith.

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/17020/McKay-Coppins-Why-I-defend-Muslims?s_cid=search_queue&utm_source=search_queue
McKay Coppins: Why I defend Muslims
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705385949/Muslim-Day-of-Dignity-observed-in-Baltimore.html
Muslim 'Day of Dignity' observed in Baltimore
"The Mormon Church donated some of the school supplies and all of the hygiene kits. While interfaith charity efforts are not uncommon,
the Muslim-Mormon team catches some people by surprise, Amin said."
http://www.mormontimes.com/article/16942/Orange-County-Calif-Muslims-Mormons-break-fast?s_cid=search_queue&utm_source=search_queueOrange
Orange County, Calif., Muslims, Mormons break fast (Sept. 7, 2010)
http://www.mormontimes.com/article/353/Make-LDS-part-of-Mideast-solution-rabbi-suggests?s_cid=search_queue&utm_source=search_queue
Make LDS part of Mideast solution, rabbi suggests
""If the (Quorum of the) Twelve were to approach the United States government and say,
'We really feel that the religious dimension should be engaged in any kind of process to seek a way
to bring about peace in the Holy Land' ... I think that would be very helpful," Rabbi David Rosen told an audience at BYU."

57 posted on 03/12/2013 2:33:05 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: Tennessee Nana
"No I just believe anyone telling me and my 2 year old child that we were going to Hell because we were Christians and not Mormons to be verbally attacking us to the point of a hate crime..."

Just one response is needed. Give them a decent head start before having them escorted off the property...

OR...

You could bring out the nuclear weapon to mormons. Throw a glass of water in their face. It will scar them forever and they will have victim stories to tell on FR.

58 posted on 03/12/2013 2:49:41 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
they will have victim stories to tell on FR.

Oh, I DO recall the poor mormon who was attacked with a glass of water...

slap hands lol photo slaphandlol.gif

59 posted on 03/12/2013 2:54:12 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: SeaHawkFan

Yep. You don’t see many Mormons following the practices of Origen, although some mormons in Utah did it to other persons they disapproved of.


60 posted on 03/12/2013 2:59:42 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (CLICK my name. See the murals before they are painted over! POTEET THEATER in OKC!)
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To: greyfoxx39

Found it.

New International Version (©2011)
1 Peter 3: 15 - 17
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

Seems to me my attitude is somewhat closer to that of Peter than yours is. Since it’s obviously a great deal harder to give your answer with “gentleness and respect” if you are greatly offended by the question.

My basic position is that I firmly believe the Mormon is in error, but I’m not offended by his error, assuming he discusses it with me politely. Why should I be? Most of the world’s population is not Christian, and most of the Christians, in all likelihood including you, would differ a bunch with me on a whole lot of doctrinal issues. Am I to be offended by each of those people holding a different set of beliefs?

Personally, I assume that my own particular beliefs do not exactly line up with the Truth, though they are as close as I can get. I proceed on the assumption that God makes allowance for human inability to arrive at Truth. I certainly hope I am right!

Since I myself do not achieve Truth in my beliefs, it does not behoove me to be overly critical of the beliefs of others. God will decide which beliefs are and are not True, and I’m personally overjoyed that isn’t my responsibility.


61 posted on 03/12/2013 3:00:16 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

“Their belief that I will burn in hell if I don’t believe as they do does nothing to put me there, any more than your similar belief about them of itself has any effect on their ultimate fate.”


Mormons are generally universalist, at least eventually. Even people just trapped in “spirit prison” have a chance afterwards to leave it, including Hitler. According to them, there are three heavens. The terrestrial, Telestial and the Celestial. Only the worthy Mormons will ascend to the Celestial heaven to dwell with God, where they themselves will be united with their families and will continue onward and onward to become gods of their own planets. Everyone else gets sorted into the lower heavens, where “hell” is essentially to be eternally envious of the Mormons who were good and obedient enough to become gods.

This, of course, is not Biblical, as Christ is quite clear that the elect dwell with Christ forever in heaven, and the damned in everlasting fires of torment where their worm dieth not. Since salvation is by the grace of God, there is no one being “good enough” to achieve their own salvation or godhood. Plus there is only one God, neither is there marriage in heaven.

From the Biblical perspective, we can be quite confidant that Mormonism is a damning religion, because it preaches a false Gospel, denies the true horror of sin and the depravity of man, denies who Christ is and His mission, and renders salvation a matter of racing to be a God of your own planet or else eternally being envious of Mormons in your lesser Gentile heaven.

Here’s Paul on the matter:

Gal 1:5-9 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


62 posted on 03/12/2013 3:13:03 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Sherman Logan

When Paul preached in Athens, the people rioted.......they were so offended. He had to flee for his life on more than one occasion.
Calmly.......hahah, what Paul are you talking about.


63 posted on 03/12/2013 3:19:00 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Sherman Logan

Like John the Baptist who stood at Herod’s dwelling and called out the whores.


64 posted on 03/12/2013 3:20:11 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Sherman Logan; greyfoxx39; Tennessee Nana; All
Well, I've read your exchanges, GF & Sherm.

I have to say I actually agree with BOTH of you...and when I say that, I'm referencing in particular GF's comment (#30) and Sherm's comment in #51: I believe that American Christians who believe their own religion to be true do not have a moral right to be offended by people of other religions who believe the same about their own faiths and express that belief politely. [Sherman Logan]

...Here's GF's comments in post #30:

Sherman states: I've had many conversations with Mormon missionaries and they have always been polite to a fault. Nana states I dont like being attacked verbally by Mormons at my own door because I am a Christian...Perhaps it doesn't occur to some that the very fact that the message mormon missionaries bring to the doors of Christians is an attack on their faith. Their message is that the mormon church is "the only true church on the face of the earth" and "the only way to salvation is through taking part in arcane rituals in mormon temples." You ask, "Do you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is thereby attacking you verbally?"...."disagree" is a false description of the mormon message...that message is a frontal attack on the belief of a Christian, comparable with someone knocking on your door and saying, "Sherman, your child is the ugliest thing I have ever seen." That has been the message sent out by the mormon church to the world for 180 years.

So...allow me first to reinforce what GF is saying with a parallel consideration.

I don't particularly like a number of facets about the Westboro picketer folks...yet some people forget what provoked them into their initial protests.

The "father" of the clan had been at that time actually quite "progressive" -- filing legal briefs (if I recall correctly) in opposing discrimination vs. blacks. What he didn't like was the open public (often anonymous) homosexual acts taking place in a nearby park that his kids walked to & fro in front of...with the kids sometimes being exposed to these vile acts.

The family began picketing these acts at the park to bring attention to it so that the locals would enforce already existent laws. Some of the homosexuals "fought back" by becoming hostile in their confrontations with the picketers. Thus, it became the the "let's keep-sex-out-of-the-bedroom-in-yo-face homosexual park perverts" vs. "the-eventual-let's-keep-placard-condemnations-in-yo-face Westboroites."

Hardly anybody likes what this picketing family has become. Yet, the initial spark of what provoked them was provocative enough for them to publicly respond.

Do we have a Biblical right to be provoked by some public things? (Ya better believe it!) On what basis do I make that claim? (On the basis of St. Peter's description of Lot, who lived near Sodom & Gomorrah):

2 Peter: 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

I know there are many Americans -- oft' "moral libertarians" - who somehow think, "you don't like abortion? Don't have one." "You don't like homosexuality, be heterosexual then." ("Otherwise, shut up"). But they forget that rampant immorality doesn't respect any bounds!!!

We see lifestyles that are indeed provocative to us! That ranges from the porn industry today going back to Sodomites who wanted to rape three visiting angels...indeed, the Sodomitic cultural impact was so negative it horribly impacted Lot's two daughters, who couldn't even find worthy husbands in that culture.

Now I don't think that we can come along and lecture people that you can't be offended by the homosexual culture and sub-cultures; or that we can't be offended by Muslim "you're-an-infidel" & Mormon "you're-an-apostate" messaging.

Yet I do agree with Sherm that one cultural trend in our midst is that EVERYBODY is trying to keep their given pet conviction or lifestyle free from critique...which is what has led the homosexual activist movement to clamp down on free speech during corporate diversity training sessions ...and has even led to interpretations that somebody promoting Chick-Fil-A is offending their personal (lesbian) lifestyle -- and must be punished in the workplace for doing so!

So, I think it's "OK" to be provoked by lawless deeds we see & hear...AND when we are trashed by Mormon missionaries who often use the phrase "universal apostasy" -- thereby accusing us, our spiritual forefathers, and even the Christian forefathers of this country of being apostates!! We Christians need to start recognizing an accusation when it's proffered up!

And yet, we can't do what the homosexual activists do -- who wind up attempting to censor any and all who publicly disagree with that lifestyle and the band-wagon of things it pulls around in our society.

Bottom-line: As GF makes the case for, when Biblically provoked, respond! When responding, don't go to the extremes of homosexual activists who attempt to pre-empt public discussion. (And by saying this latter part, I'm not saying, GF that you are doing that; I'm simply agreeing with one principle uttered by S.L.)

65 posted on 03/12/2013 3:32:45 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Sherman Logan
I am offended by upwards of 50,000 probably closer to 100,000 mormon missionaries going out daily and claiming to Christians that their faith is bogus and the ONLY way to salvation is through arcane rituals in mormon temples.

I'll say again, the message is the offense, whether it is given "politely" or not.

I too am "personally overjoyed that God will decide which beliefs are and are not True" and I will "politely" continue in this vein:

Inman mission statement photo CALLTOACTION-1-1.jpg

66 posted on 03/12/2013 3:38:57 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

I am not an ex-Mormon but I have heard the author’s favorite argument countless times. It is a fallacious argument in my opinion because the premise that without God there can be no objective moral values or duties is a false dichotomy. The concept of a moral value rests on the answer to the the question: Of value to whom and for what? A code of values for man’s life must be based on what man requires which is a function of his nature and the nature of existence. So Man’s nature it seems to me is the objective basis for choosing a code of moral values and it makes no difference whether existence was created by a God or just is.

The second premise that there are objective moral values and duties is a stolen concept. As a Christian the author must hold consciousness to be primary to existence which means that reality is subjective and there could be no such thing as an objective value.

The author asks the question: “do you feel sorrow over the
absurdity of life?”. Again I reject the premise that life is absurd if there is no God. I think that life is an end in itself. It needs no external sanction or purpose. My life has meaning to me and I need look no further than my self for a purpose. I am the meaning and the purpose of my life.


67 posted on 03/12/2013 3:54:06 PM PDT by albionin (Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,an intransigent mind and)
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To: Colofornian; Tennessee Nana; Sherman Logan
Bottom-line: As GF makes the case for, when Biblically provoked, respond! When responding, don't go to the extremes of homosexual activists who attempt to pre-empt public discussion. (And by saying this latter part, I'm not saying, GF that you are doing that

I'm not going to allow anyone to pre-empt my moral right to continue to state my response.

This PC moral cancer of "oh, don't take offense at offensive messages" must, IMO be defeated and I will continue to fight against it.

Differences Between Mormonism and Christianity


Mormonism Christianity
What is the Church?

The LDS Church is the only true church.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church (Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] 1:30); all other churches (Presbyterians, Baptists, and Methodists are specifically mentioned in Joseph Smith, History 1:9, Pearl of Great Price) are "wrong," "all their creeds were an abomination," and "those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith, History 1:19). Those of creedal or traditional Christianity have adopted "pagan beliefs" and are part of "false Christianity" (Gospel Principles, 100 [1979 edition]). One either belongs to "the church of the Lamb of God" or to "the church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:10). Joseph Smith taught that everybody but faithful Mormons will be damned (History of the Church 3:28). "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is absolutely indispensable to our salvation. No supposed personal relationship with Jesus, no commitment to the gospel, no high level of Christian conduct in society can compensate for what is to be found in the Church" (Robert Millet, Alive in Christ: The Miracle of Spiritual Rebirth [Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1997], 140).

The Church is a body of various believers and groups of believers.

The one true Church is the invisible, spiritual, and universal Body of Christ in heaven and on earth made up of all those true believers from various local denominations or visible churches. The body is an organism, not an external organization. Unity in this body does not demand complete uniformity in its various manifestations. God loves diversity. Yet the Church's unity is in Christ, who is the vine. People in various denominations who are committed to the Vine are the branches; no one particular manifestation of the Church is the vine (Matthew 16:18; 15:5; Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:1-13).

What happens after death?

Individuals go to more places than either with Christ or with the devil and his angels.

Depending on how good non-LDS members are in this life and the next determines their place in one of two lower heavenly kingdoms or "degrees of glory"--the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms--both of which are still outside the presence of God in His celestial kingdom (D&C 76). Both of these lower kingdoms are an eternal damnation of sorts, since there is no progression among all the kingdoms throughout eternity (Apostle Bruce McConkie, The Seven Deadly Heresies, Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50, and Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31). The worst eternal damnation is a separate place called "outer darkness" where only apostates reside with the Devil and his angels. The Book of Mormon teaches that if an individual doesn't repent in "this life," then one is sealed to the devil and "this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:32-5). For LDS, this passage typically means that individuals who willfully deny Christ and His Church after given an opportunity to be a part of it end up forever excluded from the presence of God in His kingdom. McConkie said that only those who never had the opportunity in this life to be part of God's celestial kingdom, and who would have received it, are the ones who will have that opportunity in the next life (The Seven Deadly Heresies, cf. D&C 137:7-8). Nonetheless, all children who die before the age of accountability go to the celestial kingdom (D&C 137:10). Prior to the final judgment, all individuals go to one of two places: paradise or spirit prison. LDS go to the former and non-LDS go to the latter. LDS will go and preach to those in spirit prison (Alma 40:12-4 and D&C 138:30). Within the celestial kingdom, there are also three degrees of glory. The highest is reserved for those who are sealed in marriage for time and all eternity (D&C 131:1-4). McConkie was also clear that simply having this celestial marriage is no guarantee of exaltation (The Seven Deadly Heresies). Finally, there are angels who worship before the throne of God, who never received a celestial marriage and are thus single (D&C 76:21 and 132:15-17).

Individuals go to be either with Christ or with the devil and his angels.

Those who are part of the body of Christ should know they have eternal life (1 John 5:10-13). They are in Christ's and the Father's hand, and no one can pluck them out of it (Jn. 10:27-30). Christ went to prepare a place for them in His Father's house, but until then the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit take up residency in their lives (Jn. 14:1-3, 23-6). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6; and Philippians 1:21-5). The Bible is clear that paradise is the third heaven--the dwelling of God (2 Cor. 12:1-4). The first heaven is the earthly atmosphere (Acts 14:17) and the second heaven is outer space (Jeremiah 8:2). At the judgment, there are those who go with the devil and his angels, and there are those who go to life eternal (Mat. 25:31-46).

What is divine salvation?

Divine salvation is unconditional for resurrection and conditional for eternal life.

In one sense, salvation is universal immortality and resurrection by grace alone, and is given to everyone except apostates. In another sense, salvation is eternal life or exaltation into the highest kingdom. The latter is dependent on grace through faith and one's works (2 Ne. 25:23; D&C 76:40-4; and Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 669-71, and 746).

Divine salvation is always conditional.

Divine salvation is always from sin and its consequence of separation from God. This salvation is always conditioned upon faith. Until this occurs, God considers the individual dead. When this salvation occurs, one has eternal life (Jn. 5:24; Romans 5; Eph. 2:1-10; and 1 Jn. 5:10-3).

Where is the cross?

The symbol of the cross is absent.

Since the Savior lives, LDS focus on his life rather than his death. Though He suffered for our sins on the cross, the greater pain was in the Garden of Gethsemane where the atonement was initiated. The emblem of the cross is not to be revered, and its display is "very strange" (Gordon B. Hinckley, "The Symbol of Our Faith," Ensign, Apr 2005, 2-6; McConkie, "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane," Ensign [May 1985], 9; Mormon Doctrine, 172 and 555; The Promised Messiah, 337 and 552; The Mortal Messiah, 127-128; Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:15-8; "Cross" and "Atonement of Christ," LDS.org).

The symbol of the cross is central.

Simply because Jesus lives forever more is no reason to minimize the means by which He paid for our sins. The Bible never teaches that the atonement began in the garden. Rather, it teaches that the atonement happened on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). The cross is foolishness to the perishing, but the power of God to them being saved (1 Cor. 1:18). There is nothing else that deserves boasting except the cross of Christ (Galatians 6:14). The cross symbolizes a way His followers are to live (Luke 9:23). Even the first century Christians used the symbol of the cross as archeology has revealed.

Did Christ die for all sins?

Christ did not die for all sins.

Christ did not atone for the murderer, since there is no forgiveness for him "in this world, nor in the world to come." Christ also did not pay for more than a one-time offense of adultery, since such violators cannot be forgiven either (D&C 42:18 and 25-9). Actually, according to one apostle, Christ atoned simply for Adam's sin, and left "us responsible only for our own sins." This apostle goes on to quote the 2nd Article of Faith that claims "men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression" (Le Grand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder [1976], 98). Other LDS prophets have taught that there are certain "sins" that one may commit that are beyond the atonement of the Son of God, and one's own blood must be shed in such cases (Brigham Young, The Journal of Discourses 3:247; 4:53-4; 4:219-220; and Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:133-6).

Christ did die for all sins.

Christ atoned for all sins (Adam's as well as everyone else's). The Lord Jesus took the punishment of everyone on the cross. The debt we could never pay has been completely paid by the Lamb of God, and to those who receive this gift, they are declared "justified" or "not guilty." This is the good news (the gospel) for everyone, including the adulterer and the murderer (2 Samuel 12:13; Isaiah 53:3-12; Mt. 18:21-2; Rom. 3:24; 4:5; 5:1-2; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; 15:3; 2 Cor. 5:14-21; 1 Pt. 2:24; and 1


68 posted on 03/12/2013 4:01:09 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: Vigilanteman
That's why I've never been a fan of mindless religious debasing be the objects Catholic, Mormon or Protestant.

Then you'd be one of the first to say the following quotes are WAY off base; right??



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

69 posted on 03/12/2013 4:04:52 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: stuartcr

1. Christianity exists.
2. There are some really bad examples of Christians.
3. Therefore MORMONism is true.


70 posted on 03/12/2013 4:06:45 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Mormonism was invented to cover up and excuse immoral behavior...

No WAY!!!


 

Polygamy: How it all got Started


 
 
 
Joe: Hey Emma!   Guess what!?
 
Emma: You KNOW I hate these guessing games! What is it, Dear?
 
Joe: I heard a voice, probably the Lord, tell me I must take other wives.
 
Emma: WHAT!?   You ding bat!  Don't you KNOW what our precious BOOK says?   After all; YOU are the one that translated it!
 
Joe: Books; schmooks.   All I know is I've been COMMANDED to take other wives and you are to OBEY ME!!!
 
 
Emma:      "Though shalt NOT commit ADULTERY!!!"
 
 
Joe: Silly Woman!  You KNOW better than to take things out of CONTEXT!!!
 
 
 
 
 

 
...and the rest is HISTORY...
 

 
 
 
 
 
THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI
CHAPTER 2
 
  24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
  25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
  26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
  27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
  28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
  31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
  32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
 

Or even HERE:
 

 1 Timothy 3:2-3
 2.  Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
 3.  not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
 
 
1 Timothy 3:12
   A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
 
 
 Titus 1:6
   An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.



 
 
Emma: That's IT!   I'm LEAVING your sorry *!!!
 
Joe:  DARN you Emma; you were TOLD to accept this!!   Wait!!!   I hear a voice again!!!
 
 


 
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
 
  51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 
 
  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to brejoice.


71 posted on 03/12/2013 4:08:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan
I assume they are trained to be this way, as indeed anybody filling this role must be to be effective

Yep; they are trained all right!!


 
 
Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

 
 
Timeline...    Subject...
 
0:59           "Anti-Mormons..."
1:16           "ATTACK the faith you have..."
2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."
3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."


72 posted on 03/12/2013 4:09:56 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

...and saved the BEST grape juice for the last!


73 posted on 03/12/2013 4:11:00 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: albionin

“So Man’s nature it seems to me is the objective basis for choosing a code of moral values and it makes no difference whether existence was created by a God or just is.”


Man’s nature is utterly corrupt, and it seems to me that most heresies are of the opinion that man is somehow good or is capable of “fixing itself” in place of God. Even an atheist must acknowledge the limitless potential in man for depravity, despite whatever self-righteousness he embraces in himself.


74 posted on 03/12/2013 4:13:56 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: greyfoxx39
I'm not going to allow anyone to pre-empt my moral right to continue to state my response. This PC moral cancer of "oh, don't take offense at offensive messages" must, IMO be defeated and I will continue to fight against it.

(Heartily agree!)

75 posted on 03/12/2013 4:24:03 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Elsie; stuartcr; All
1. Christianity exists.
2. There are some really bad examples of Christians.
3. Therefore MORMONism is true.

(LOL)

76 posted on 03/12/2013 4:26:13 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: svcw; Sherman Logan

Oh that Mars Hill...

I thought maybe it was Kolob Hill

:)


77 posted on 03/12/2013 4:30:44 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: albionin
Man’s nature it seems to me is the objective basis for choosing a code of moral values and it makes no difference whether existence was created by a God or just is.

#1...from man's perspective there is no across-the-board agreement on what is man's nature!

To Mormons, for example, men have always existed -- as eternal as God is (D&C 93:29,33);
THEN they were spirit-born on a planet near "Kolob" (where'er that is);
THEN they came to earth as "spirits" to inhabit a body (you didn't know Mitt Romney was an alien from another planet, did you?)
THEN if Mormons 100% tithe, marry, qualify for a temple recommend, and legalistically obey ALL of the rituals & requirements expected of them, they will (eventually) become full-grown gods.

You can readily see, then, that a perspective of "who man is" is going to be radically distinct...from Mormon cosmology (worldview above)...to Hindu sacred-cowism (don't kill-that-cow-is-my-ancestor...which thereby places man on the level of a cow!)...to Heaven's Gate believers whose "absolute" of suicide as a simple "gateway" to another planetary dimension...[only those demonic agents failed to tell them that "other dimension" was hell!]

78 posted on 03/12/2013 4:35:01 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Got that right


79 posted on 03/12/2013 4:36:16 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

That is the problem. I am coming from a completely different metaphysics and epistemology than a Christian would have to hold to hold the beliefs he or she holds. I don’t think man’s nature is corrupt. Man’s nature is metaphysically given. It is what it is. You look at man and see only the potential for depravity. I don’t. I recognize that man is a being of volitional consciousness. Yes he has a limitless potential for depravity, but he also has a limitless potential for good. I don’t think of a moral code as a curb on man’s innate evil tendencies but as a guide to help each man lead the best possible life that he is capable of. Just because many people do evil things does not mean that there is no objective standard of morality. It is by denying that there is a standard and just doing whatever one feels like that is the cause of evil.


80 posted on 03/12/2013 4:39:47 PM PDT by albionin (Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,an intransigent mind and)
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To: albionin
The author asks the question: “do you feel sorrow over the absurdity of life?”. Again I reject the premise that life is absurd if there is no God. I think that life is an end in itself. It needs no external sanction or purpose. My life has meaning to me and I need look no further than my self for a purpose. I am the meaning and the purpose of my life.

Let's focus on the "meat" of this "sandwich":

"Life...needs NO external sanction or purpose."

When we unpack that statement, while the rest of your comments says there can be a private, a personal, a processional self-purpose for life, what this "meat" of your comment says is:
"Life...needs NO social OR social ethical sanction or purpose."

So do YOU REALLY believe there is no social or no social ethical sanction or purpose within life?

81 posted on 03/12/2013 4:42:53 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: albionin

There is no morality without God.
You might be able to be ethical or legal but you cannot be moral.


82 posted on 03/12/2013 5:00:36 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: svcw; Albion; All
There is no morality without God. You might be able to be ethical or legal but you cannot be moral.

Well, even ethics is mostly social ethics...and if you look @ Albion's definition of "life purpose" -- 'twas solely an interior purpose...he seemed to basically agree that "external" purposes are beyond his mark.

IoW, in Albion's grand "scheme" of things, "THE life purpose" is basically SELF...full of SELF (something we might otherwise call "SELFishness")...and nothing else.

Wow! What a horrid way to live!

83 posted on 03/12/2013 5:05:08 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: svcw

The LORD Jesus Christ and His whip...

and the things He said ...

“Whited sepulchers !!!” “Vipers !!!”

Oh noez...


84 posted on 03/12/2013 5:17:22 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: svcw

I disagree.


85 posted on 03/12/2013 5:45:16 PM PDT by albionin (Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,an intransigent mind and)
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To: Colofornian

Reality is its not possible to be ethical as ethics are founded in morality.


86 posted on 03/12/2013 5:46:49 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: albionin

Disagreement is a moral choice, without God it is not possible.
Morality is founded in God, it is not a personal choice.


87 posted on 03/12/2013 5:48:28 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

But that’s not the Christian way.....oh wait!


88 posted on 03/12/2013 6:05:50 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

Placemarker


89 posted on 03/12/2013 6:12:01 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: Colofornian

I don’t know where you got the “and nothing else” from. I simply mean that I need no outside authority or force to give meaning to my life. If I were alone on a desert Island my life would still have meaning. There would still be things for me to achieve and to learn. I would still have a purpose.


90 posted on 03/12/2013 6:12:40 PM PDT by albionin (Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,an intransigent mind and)
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To: albionin; svcw
If I were alone on a desert Island my life would still have meaning. There would still be things for me to achieve and to learn. I would still have a purpose.

You make my point exactly. Note that your first impulse to defend your position is a solo one -- "alone on a desert island."

So, apparently, there's no social or ethical purpose to your life, eh?

Your self-contained "purpose" resides ONLY within you...and fits best "alone on an desert island."

Now that is truly sad.

91 posted on 03/12/2013 6:16:38 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: svcw

I don’t agree. I think morality is that which is proper for man’s life as a rational being.


92 posted on 03/12/2013 6:18:28 PM PDT by albionin (Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,an intransigent mind and)
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To: Colofornian

You are so right Color...very sad.


93 posted on 03/12/2013 6:19:08 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: albionin

Morality is not defined by the individual, it is in the preview of God.
You can be moral, ethical or legal.
Morality is within God.
Ethical maybe or maybe not as most ethics are derived by the moral.
The best you can hope for is the legal, and even that is iffy.


94 posted on 03/12/2013 6:20:59 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Colofornian

I am not sure what you mean by a social ethical sanction. If you are asking me if I can do anything I feel like doing then no I don’t believe that. I believe there is an objective standard of morality. Man’s life is the standard or to put it another way man’s individual rights are the standard. Man’s rights are a consequence of his nature which is an objective absolute. Anything that violates individual rights is immoral.


95 posted on 03/12/2013 6:25:11 PM PDT by albionin (Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,an intransigent mind and)
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To: svcw

A code of ethics is a code of morality.


96 posted on 03/12/2013 6:27:48 PM PDT by albionin (Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,an intransigent mind and)
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To: albionin

Then without God a person can be neither moral or ethical, only legal at best.


97 posted on 03/12/2013 6:28:46 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Colofornian

Not at all. I think it is sad to depend on others to give your life meaning. If you mean that my life can have no meaning or purpose unless I serve others then I not only consider that wrong but evil. If I do things for others it is because I have a selfish interest. I never do anything selflessly and despise a person who does. But I think you and I would have a very different definition of what is selfish and what is selfless. That is because we are coming from a completely different metaphysics and epistemology.


98 posted on 03/12/2013 6:48:13 PM PDT by albionin (Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,an intransigent mind and)
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To: svcw

I can.


99 posted on 03/12/2013 6:48:48 PM PDT by albionin (Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,an intransigent mind and)
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To: albionin
I believe there is an objective standard of morality. Man’s life is the standard or to put it another way man’s individual rights are the standard.

(As if there are "objective" agreements on men's "individual rights" even from one country to another...even in China, some provinces are a little more lax on the "one child allowed per family" -- and others are quite strict in enforcing that...cultures greatly differ on individual female rights...so here you cite often arbitrary distinctions & arbitrary cultural "standards" as some sort of "standard"...sorry, that's all quite subjective, NOT objective)

100 posted on 03/12/2013 6:56:40 PM PDT by Colofornian
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