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Quirky facts about papal conclaves
Charlotte Observer ^ | 3/11/2013 | The Associated Press

Posted on 03/12/2013 11:37:09 PM PDT by boatbums

VATICAN CITY LONGEST CONCLAVE: In 1268, a conclave began that lasted nearly three years - 33 months to be exact. Pope Gregory X was elected pope, but not before residents of Viterbo, north of Rome, tore the roof off the building where the cardinals were staying and restricted their meals to bread and water to make them hurry up. Hoping to avoid a repeat, Gregory decreed in 1274 that cardinals would only get one meal a day if the conclave stretched beyond three days, and served bread, water and wine if it went beyond eight. While the meals served these days at the Vatican's hotel are by no means gourmet, the cardinals won't go hungry - no matter how long they take picking a pope.

SHORTEST CONCLAVE: Before 1274, there were times when a pope was elected the same day as the death of his predecessor. After that, however, the church decided to wait at least 10 days before the first vote; later that was stretched to 15 days to give all cardinals time to get to Rome. The quickest conclave observing the 10-day wait rule appears to have been the 1503 election of Julius II, who was elected in just a few hours, according to Vatican historian Ambrogio Piazzoni.

YOUNGEST/OLDEST POPE ELECTED: Pope John XII was just 18 when he was elected in 955. The oldest popes were Pope Celestine III (elected in 1191) and Celestine V (elected in 1294) who were both nearly 85. Benedict XVI was 78 when he was elected in 2005.

FUN FACTS: The last time a pope was elected who wasn't a cardinal was Urban VI in 1378 - he was a monk and archbishop of Bari. Pope Pius XII, who was pope during World War II, left a document informing the College of Cardinals that they should hold a conclave and elect a new pope if he were taken prisoner. While the Italians have had a stranglehold on the papacy over centuries, there have been many exceptions aside from John Paul II (Polish in 1978) and Benedict XVI (German in 2005). Alexander VI, elected in 1492, was Spanish; Gregory III, elected in 731, was Syrian; Adrian VI, elected in 1522, was from the Netherlands.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; pope; popejoan
Didn't know the conclave process for electing the Pope didn't start until the thirteenth century.
1 posted on 03/12/2013 11:37:10 PM PDT by boatbums
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To: boatbums
Cardinal directions
2 posted on 03/12/2013 11:40:48 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (RETURN TO MECCA [http://youtu.be/zWQkaDUCJ_Y])
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To: All
List of Popes

  1. St. Peter (32-67)
  2. St. Linus (67-76)
  3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
  4. St. Clement I (88-97)
  5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
  6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
  7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
  8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
  9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
  10. St. Pius I (140-155)
  11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
  12. St. Soter (166-175)
  13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
  14. St. Victor I (189-199)
  15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
  16. St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
  17. St. Urban I (222-30)
  18. St. Pontain (230-35)
  19. St. Anterus (235-36)
  20. St. Fabian (236-50)
  21. St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
  22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
  23. St. Stephen I (254-257)
  24. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
  25. St. Dionysius (260-268)
  26. St. Felix I (269-274)
  27. St. Eutychian (275-283)
  28. St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
  29. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
  30. St. Marcellus I (308-309)
  31. St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
  32. St. Miltiades (311-14)
  33. St. Sylvester I (314-35)
  34. St. Marcus (336)
  35. St. Julius I (337-52)
  36. Liberius (352-66) Opposed by Felix II, antipope (355-365)
  37. St. Damasus I (366-83) Opposed by Ursicinus, antipope (366-367)
  38. St. Siricius (384-99)
  39. St. Anastasius I (399-401)
  40. St. Innocent I (401-17)
  41. St. Zosimus (417-18)
  42. St. Boniface I (418-22) Opposed by Eulalius, antipope (418-419)
  43. St. Celestine I (422-32)
  44. St. Sixtus III (432-40)
  45. St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
  46. St. Hilarius (461-68)
  47. St. Simplicius (468-83)
  48. St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
  49. St. Gelasius I (492-96)
  50. Anastasius II (496-98)
  51. St. Symmachus (498-514) Opposed by Laurentius, antipope (498-501)
  52. St. Hormisdas (514-23)
  53. St. John I (523-26)
  54. St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
  55. Boniface II (530-32) Opposed by Dioscorus, antipope (530)
  56. John II (533-35)
  57. St. Agapetus I (535-36) Also called Agapitus I
  58. St. Silverius (536-37)
  59. Vigilius (537-55)
  60. Pelagius I (556-61)
  61. John III (561-74)
  62. Benedict I (575-79)
  63. Pelagius II (579-90)
  64. St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
  65. Sabinian (604-606)
  66. Boniface III (607)
  67. St. Boniface IV (608-15)
  68. St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
  69. Boniface V (619-25)
  70. Honorius I (625-38)
  71. Severinus (640)
  72. John IV (640-42)
  73. Theodore I (642-49)
  74. St. Martin I (649-55)
  75. St. Eugene I (655-57)
  76. St. Vitalian (657-72)
  77. Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
  78. Donus (676-78)
  79. St. Agatho (678-81)
  80. St. Leo II (682-83)
  81. St. Benedict II (684-85)
  82. John V (685-86)
  83. Conon (686-87)
  84. St. Sergius I (687-701) Opposed by Theodore and Paschal, antipopes (687)
  85. John VI (701-05)
  86. John VII (705-07)
  87. Sisinnius (708)
  88. Constantine (708-15)
  89. St. Gregory II (715-31)
  90. St. Gregory III (731-41)
  91. St. Zachary (741-52)
  92. Stephen II (752) Because he died before being consecrated, many authoritative lists omit him
  93. Stephen III (752-57)
  94. St. Paul I (757-67)
  95. Stephen IV (767-72) Opposed by Constantine II (767) and Philip (768), antipopes (767)
  96. Adrian I (772-95)
  97. St. Leo III (795-816)
  98. Stephen V (816-17)
  99. St. Paschal I (817-24)
  100. Eugene II (824-27)
  101. Valentine (827)
  102. Gregory IV (827-44)
  103. Sergius II (844-47) Opposed by John, antipope (855)
  104. St. Leo IV (847-55)
  105. Benedict III (855-58) Opposed by Anastasius, antipope (855)
  106. St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
  107. Adrian II (867-72)
  108. John VIII (872-82)
  109. Marinus I (882-84)
  110. St. Adrian III (884-85)
  111. Stephen VI (885-91)
  112. Formosus (891-96)
  113. Boniface VI (896)
  114. Stephen VII (896-97)
  115. Romanus (897)
  116. Theodore II (897)
  117. John IX (898-900)
  118. Benedict IV (900-03)
  119. Leo V (903) Opposed by Christopher, antipope (903-904)
  120. Sergius III (904-11)
  121. Anastasius III (911-13)
  122. Lando (913-14)
  123. John X (914-28)
  124. Leo VI (928)
  125. Stephen VIII (929-31)
  126. John XI (931-35)
  127. Leo VII (936-39)
  128. Stephen IX (939-42)
  129. Marinus II (942-46)
  130. Agapetus II (946-55)
  131. John XII (955-63)
  132. Leo VIII (963-64)
  133. Benedict V (964)
  134. John XIII (965-72)
  135. Benedict VI (973-74)
  136. Benedict VII (974-83) Benedict and John XIV were opposed by Boniface VII, antipope (974; 984-985)
  137. John XIV (983-84)
  138. John XV (985-96)
  139. Gregory V (996-99) Opposed by John XVI, antipope (997-998)
  140. Sylvester II (999-1003)
  141. John XVII (1003)
  142. John XVIII (1003-09)
  143. Sergius IV (1009-12)
  144. Benedict VIII (1012-24) Opposed by Gregory, antipope (1012)
  145. John XIX (1024-32)
  146. Benedict IX (1032-45) He appears on this list three separate times, because he was twice deposed and restored
  147. Sylvester III (1045) Considered by some to be an antipope
  148. Benedict IX (1045)
  149. Gregory VI (1045-46)
  150. Clement II (1046-47)
  151. Benedict IX (1047-48)
  152. Damasus II (1048)
  153. St. Leo IX (1049-54)
  154. Victor II (1055-57)
  155. Stephen X (1057-58)
  156. Nicholas II (1058-61) Opposed by Benedict X, antipope (1058)
  157. Alexander II (1061-73) Opposed by Honorius II, antipope (1061-1072)
  158. St. Gregory VII (1073-85) Gregory and the following three popes were opposed by Guibert ("Clement III"), antipope (1080-1100)
  159. Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
  160. Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
  161. Paschal II (1099-1118) Opposed by Theodoric (1100), Aleric (1102) and Maginulf ("Sylvester IV", 1105-1111), antipopes (1100)
  162. Gelasius II (1118-19) Opposed by Burdin ("Gregory VIII"), antipope (1118)
  163. Callistus II (1119-24)
  164. Honorius II (1124-30) Opposed by Celestine II, antipope (1124)
  165. Innocent II (1130-43) Opposed by Anacletus II (1130-1138) and Gregory Conti ("Victor IV") (1138), antipopes (1138)
  166. Celestine II (1143-44)
  167. Lucius II (1144-45)
  168. Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
  169. Anastasius IV (1153-54)
  170. Adrian IV (1154-59)
  171. Alexander III (1159-81) Opposed by Octavius ("Victor IV") (1159-1164), Pascal III (1165-1168), Callistus III (1168-1177) and Innocent III (1178-1180), antipopes
  172. Lucius III (1181-85)
  173. Urban III (1185-87)
  174. Gregory VIII (1187)
  175. Clement III (1187-91)
  176. Celestine III (1191-98)
  177. Innocent III (1198-1216)
  178. Honorius III (1216-27)
  179. Gregory IX (1227-41)
  180. Celestine IV (1241)
  181. Innocent IV (1243-54)
  182. Alexander IV (1254-61)
  183. Urban IV (1261-64)
  184. Clement IV (1265-68)
  185. Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
  186. Blessed Innocent V (1276)
  187. Adrian V (1276)
  188. John XXI (1276-77)
  189. Nicholas III (1277-80)
  190. Martin IV (1281-85)
  191. Honorius IV (1285-87)
  192. Nicholas IV (1288-92)
  193. St. Celestine V (1294)
  194. Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
  195. Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
  196. Clement V (1305-14)
  197. John XXII (1316-34) Opposed by Nicholas V, antipope (1328-1330)
  198. Benedict XII (1334-42)
  199. Clement VI (1342-52)
  200. Innocent VI (1352-62)
  201. Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
  202. Gregory XI (1370-78)
  203. Urban VI (1378-89) Opposed by Robert of Geneva ("Clement VII"), antipope (1378-1394)
  204. Boniface IX (1389-1404) Opposed by Robert of Geneva ("Clement VII") (1378-1394), Pedro de Luna ("Benedict XIII") (1394-1417) and Baldassare Cossa ("John XXIII") (1400-1415), antipopes
  205. Innocent VII (1404-06) Opposed by Pedro de Luna ("Benedict XIII") (1394-1417) and Baldassare Cossa ("John XXIII") (1400-1415), antipopes
  206. Gregory XII (1406-15) Opposed by Pedro de Luna ("Benedict XIII") (1394-1417), Baldassare Cossa ("John XXIII") (1400-1415), and Pietro Philarghi ("Alexander V") (1409-1410), antipopes
  207. Martin V (1417-31)
  208. Eugene IV (1431-47) Opposed by Amadeus of Savoy ("Felix V"), antipope (1439-1449)
  209. Nicholas V (1447-55)
  210. Callistus III (1455-58)
  211. Pius II (1458-64)
  212. Paul II (1464-71)
  213. Sixtus IV (1471-84)
  214. Innocent VIII (1484-92)
  215. Alexander VI (1492-1503)
  216. Pius III (1503)
  217. Julius II (1503-13)
  218. Leo X (1513-21)
  219. Adrian VI (1522-23)
  220. Clement VII (1523-34)
  221. Paul III (1534-49)
  222. Julius III (1550-55)
  223. Marcellus II (1555)
  224. Paul IV (1555-59)
  225. Pius IV (1559-65)
  226. St. Pius V (1566-72)
  227. Gregory XIII (1572-85)
  228. Sixtus V (1585-90)
  229. Urban VII (1590)
  230. Gregory XIV (1590-91)
  231. Innocent IX (1591)
  232. Clement VIII (1592-1605)
  233. Leo XI (1605)
  234. Paul V (1605-21)
  235. Gregory XV (1621-23)
  236. Urban VIII (1623-44)
  237. Innocent X (1644-55)
  238. Alexander VII (1655-67)
  239. Clement IX (1667-69)
  240. Clement X (1670-76)
  241. Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
  242. Alexander VIII (1689-91)
  243. Innocent XII (1691-1700)
  244. Clement XI (1700-21)
  245. Innocent XIII (1721-24)
  246. Benedict XIII (1724-30)
  247. Clement XII (1730-40)
  248. Benedict XIV (1740-58)
  249. Clement XIII (1758-69)
  250. Clement XIV (1769-74)
  251. Pius VI (1775-99)
  252. Pius VII (1800-23)
  253. Leo XII (1823-29)
  254. Pius VIII (1829-30)
  255. Gregory XVI (1831-46)
  256. Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
  257. Leo XIII (1878-1903)
  258. St. Pius X (1903-14)
  259. Benedict XV (1914-22) Biographies of Benedict XV and his successors will be added at a later date
  260. Pius XI (1922-39)
  261. Pius XII (1939-58)
  262. Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
  263. Paul VI (1963-78)
  264. John Paul I (1978)
  265. Blessed John Paul II (1978-2005)
  266. Benedict XVI (2005-2013)

3 posted on 03/12/2013 11:43:52 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos

Which one had the most kids?


4 posted on 03/13/2013 12:01:44 AM PDT by Ecliptic (.)
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To: berdie

later


5 posted on 03/13/2013 12:01:59 AM PDT by berdie
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To: boatbums

UNder fun facts, it should be included that at certain points in history there were more than one Pope, and that a couple were female. Also that the leader of the Jesuits is (unoficially) called “The Black Pope”.


6 posted on 03/13/2013 12:29:10 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Um.. Pope Joan is a myth.


7 posted on 03/13/2013 12:50:31 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Secret Agent Man
There was no female Pope, sorry. Well-researched article destroying the "Pope Joan" story
8 posted on 03/13/2013 2:05:22 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Ecliptic
Which one had the most kids?

And your point is...?
9 posted on 03/13/2013 4:33:16 AM PDT by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: Secret Agent Man
Also that the leader of the Jesuits is (unoficially) called “The Black Pope”.

Who flies in a black helicopter piloted by an albino monk all under the mind control of Dan Brown.
10 posted on 03/13/2013 4:36:49 AM PDT by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: Cronos
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT LIST OF POPES!!

The Protestants will be heard from...SOON!

11 posted on 03/13/2013 4:42:56 AM PDT by Ann Archy (ABORTION........the HUMAN sacrifice to the god of CONVENIENCE.)
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To: Ecliptic

Her;s the FIRST snarky comment!!! Did not take as long as I thought!!


12 posted on 03/13/2013 4:43:52 AM PDT by Ann Archy (ABORTION........the HUMAN sacrifice to the god of CONVENIENCE.)
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To: Secret Agent Man
at certain points in history there were more than one Pope

Incorrect.

a couple were female

Incorrect.

the leader of the Jesuits is (unoficially) called “The Black Pope”

Before the suppressions, yes.

13 posted on 03/13/2013 5:30:22 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: boatbums
Conclave means "locked in" in Latin (con "with, under" clavis - "key").

The process before they began locking the electors in a room was similar.

The term conclave refers to the locking in, not the electoral process.

14 posted on 03/13/2013 5:36:14 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Cronos

So how did the Apostle John feel about bowing down to and kissing the rings of Linus and Clement???


15 posted on 03/13/2013 5:47:27 AM PDT by Iscool (uee)
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To: Ecliptic
Which one had the most kids?

Eleven popes had children, four legitimately. It is likely that early popes like Peter, Linus and Clement also had legitimate children but there are no records.

Four, possibly five, popes had illegitimate children before they entered the priesthood.

Two, possibly three, popes had illegitimate children before they were elected.

The pope with the most illegitimate children was likely Paul III, with three, possibly four children.

16 posted on 03/13/2013 6:02:14 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Iscool
So how did the Apostle John feel about bowing down to and kissing the rings of Linus and Clement???

It is unlikely he ever met them.

They lived in Rome and he lived in the Aegean.

17 posted on 03/13/2013 6:04:34 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Secret Agent Man
and that a couple were female.

There were never, ever, at any time in history, female popes. Pope Joan is a nonsensical myth.

18 posted on 03/13/2013 6:17:09 AM PDT by pgkdan ( "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson)
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To: pgkdan

But . . . but . . . but . . . there was a Hollywood movie and everything! It’s science!


19 posted on 03/13/2013 6:20:03 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Ann Archy; boatbums
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT LIST OF POPES!! The Protestants will be heard from...SOON!

Unless I'm mistaken, a Protestant created the thread.

20 posted on 03/13/2013 7:15:21 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Antipopes

True. At times, there has been more than one person thought by many at the time to be the Pope of Rome, whose official title is Bishop of Rome. Divisions occurred within the Catholic Church, with each side electing their own pope. After the divisions were healed, the Church affirmed the papacy of whichever were deemed legitimately elected. The others are called, “antipopes.” “Anti-” here does not mean “counter-,” but rather, “other.” Some antipopes were holy men, thought of very highly by the same people who deemed their elections illegitimate. One even became a saint, Pope St. Hippolytus.

Also, the Pope of Rome is but one of several “Popes.” He is not only universal leader of the Catholic Church, but also the Patriarch of Rome. There are other patriarchs within and without the Catholic Church, and several also are called, “Pope.”

Women popes.

False. Some have taken a satire about a “Pope Joan” as if it were a historic fact, but the dates and identities of the medieval popes are well known, and there simply never was such a pope.

Black pope.

True... sort of. In contrast to the white vestments of the pope, the Superior General of the Society of Jesus (also known as the Jesuits) wears black vestments. Secular rulers used to have great say over who gets picked as bishop, but none over who gets picked as leaders of religious orders. Thus, in medieval times, religious orders were an important bulwark against the corruption of the Church. Secular rulers embittered by the power of the Jesuits took to calling their leader, “the black pope.” This was highly derogatory, although the Jesuits have developed a sense of humor over such things. Even the name “Jesuit” was once a slur, intended to accuse the Society of Jesus of heretically worshipping the man, Jesus, rather than the divine nature, Christ.


21 posted on 03/13/2013 8:00:27 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Iscool

>> So how did the Apostle John feel about bowing down to and kissing the rings of Linus and Clement??? <<

DIdn’t happen, because John was in exile in Patmos. If he had been in Rome, presumably, he might have succeeded Peter, and Linus and Clement would have kissed his ring.


22 posted on 03/13/2013 8:03:44 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Alex Murphy; boatbums

I said “list of Popes” NOT for creating the thread. If Boatbums would have given us the complete list of Popes, I would have thanked him.


23 posted on 03/13/2013 8:51:27 AM PDT by Ann Archy (ABORTION........the HUMAN sacrifice to the god of CONVENIENCE.)
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To: boatbums

Boatbums, the conclave for electing a Pope did NOT start in the 13th century...it’s ALWAYS been....sorry you misunderstood.


24 posted on 03/13/2013 8:52:36 AM PDT by Ann Archy (ABORTION........the HUMAN sacrifice to the god of CONVENIENCE.)
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To: Ann Archy; boatbums
If Boatbums would have given us the complete list of Popes, I would have thanked him.

We'll just have to take your word for that, I guess.

25 posted on 03/13/2013 8:59:47 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: Ann Archy; boatbums
the conclave for electing a Pope did NOT start in the 13th century...it’s ALWAYS been

More accurately, the process has always been electoral.

Over time the rules of electoral eligibility have been refined and the process has been regularized over time as well.

It became a conclave - i.e. a process where the electors are sequestered until they make a decision - in the 1200s.

26 posted on 03/13/2013 9:07:54 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Secret Agent Man

There were no females.

Someone is giving you faulty information.

Who?

A Catholic hater, by chance?


27 posted on 03/13/2013 10:13:51 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Secret Agent Man
Also that the leader of the Jesuits is (unoficially) called “The Black Pope”.

Interesting that the brand new Pope elected today is a Jesuit.

28 posted on 03/13/2013 2:45:58 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: wideawake
Conclave means "locked in" in Latin (con "with, under" clavis - "key"). The process before they began locking the electors in a room was similar. The term conclave refers to the locking in, not the electoral process.

Yes, thank you for that info. I know that Catholicism teaches that the popes were the "successors" to St. Peter and that the first ones were hand-selected by the Apostle to carry on the doctrines of the faith and to be the chief leader for all the churches of Christ. Do you know when that changed and, instead of the current pope selecting the man that would succeed him, it became an election decided by the other bishops without the input of the current pope? The reason I ask is that there HAVE been scandals in the past of popes "buying" the papacy and the election being one of popularity rather than through the leading of the Holy Spirit. Granted, Matthias was selected to succeed Judas Iscariot by the throwing of dice, so to speak, and the other Apostles trusting that the Holy Spirit would help them know who the twelfth Apostle should be, but the "tradition" espoused by Catholicism was that Peter named Linus to succeed him and Linus chose the next one and so forth. So, when did the process change and why? Do you know? Thanks.

29 posted on 03/13/2013 3:23:12 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: wideawake; Ecliptic
The pope with the most illegitimate children was likely Paul III, with three, possibly four children.

Did you forget about Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia)?

30 posted on 03/13/2013 3:26:05 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

I found that interesting too. Also that he is a “first” - Francis the 1st. Haven’t had a 1st in awhile either. Plus the first latin american Pope.

Lots of interesting things to think about.


31 posted on 03/13/2013 3:40:22 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: boatbums
Do you know when that changed and, instead of the current pope selecting the man that would succeed him, it became an election decided by the other bishops without the input of the current pope?

From what we know, the ideal process in any diocese - including Rome - was to emulate Acts and to have worthy persons nominated and deliberated over by the priests of the diocese and have them choose.

Clearly any man recommended by a dying pope would be given serious consideration. And in times of persecution, when it was dangerous to gather and deliberate, the pope's designate was likely considered the appropriate choice.

The election today is not decided by bishops, but by cardinals.

Traditionally the priests of the diocese who were recognized by the bishop and given a congregation to pastor were considered to be "incardinated" into the diocese.

The term cardinals originally referred to the priests and deacons incardinated into the diocese of Rome.

Over time, bishops of prominence were given their own congregations or parishes within the diocese of Rome as their own - this was considered an honor, and those bishops were given the title of cardinals (in addition to their office as bishop).

there HAVE been scandals in the past of popes "buying" the papacy and the election being one of popularity rather than through the leading of the Holy Spirit

The institution of limiting the electorate to only cardinals was formalized in 1059, after the scandal of Benedict IX buying votes and using political pressure, and was a specific response to that scandal.

I would dispute that Benedict IX was not chosen by the Holy Spirit. In my opinion he was and his papacy teaches us a number of things:

(1) the office is what is holy, not the man who holds it.

(2) Benedict IX was corrupt, but he did not teach anything contrary to the Gospel, showing that the Holy Spirit preserves the Church from the gates of Hell, even if the Petrine office is held by someone deeply unworthy of it.

(3) The revulsion that Benedict IXC's simony created led to the Cluniac reform, and the election of some of the greatest popes, including St. Gregory VII, Bl. Urban II, and Innocent III.

So I disagree with your premise.

Granted, Matthias was selected to succeed Judas Iscariot by the throwing of dice, so to speak, and the other Apostles trusting that the Holy Spirit would help them know who the twelfth Apostle should be

In their opinion, both candidates were equally good, and their lots recall the Urim and Thummim.

the "tradition" espoused by Catholicism was that Peter named Linus to succeed him and Linus chose the next one and so forth. So, when did the process change and why?

The concept is that the Apostles as a college nominated two to join their college.

Once the Apostles dispersed, they chose their successors in their respective local churches.

If there was no chosen successor for a bishop - as in the time of persecution when bishops would often be seized and killed - then those who had been chosen by him as pastors chose someone from among their number.

32 posted on 03/13/2013 3:54:20 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: Iscool
Well, as a Catholic I'll answer your question after you answer why the Profit Mohammed didn't choose Hussein as the next Caliph

until you answer that, please go away and leave us Christians to discuss Christian topics

33 posted on 03/13/2013 9:17:09 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Ecliptic

Dunno. In any case, celibacy is a discipline, not dogma.


34 posted on 03/13/2013 9:27:14 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Actually, he’s not “Francis the 1st”, he’s just Pope Francis


35 posted on 03/13/2013 9:28:23 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Alex Murphy; Ann Archy; boatbums

WEll, to be specific, a non-Catholic. There are lots of those who use the “P” umbrella who are Unitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses etc... and they are heavily represented among r group on FR


36 posted on 03/13/2013 9:30:14 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos

We could use another Pope Hilarius.


37 posted on 03/13/2013 9:30:52 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Cronos; Alex Murphy; Ann Archy
WEll, to be specific, a non-Catholic. There are lots of those who use the “P” umbrella who are Unitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses etc... and they are heavily represented among r group on FR

Come now, you can be more specific than that! As I have said many times I am a Christian. A born again, saved by the blood of Jesus by grace through faith and not by works, child of the Living God. So, no, I'm not a Roman Catholic anymore. That "P" umbrella is used a lot by Roman Catholics to mean anyone who isn't a Roman Catholic, but I think you already knew that, right?

38 posted on 03/13/2013 10:41:40 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums; Alex Murphy; Ann Archy
BB: As I have said many times I am a Christian.

And so too does the Unitarian Universalist in ur cliche and so too does the Jehovah's Witness. And so too do Mormons

39 posted on 03/14/2013 1:33:20 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: boatbums
As I have said many times I am a Christian. A born again, saved by the blood of Jesus by grace through faith and not by works, child of the Living God. So, no, I'm not a Roman Catholic anymore.

Now just you wait a darned minute! How many times have we heard that if you were ever baptised a Catholic, you're always going to be a Catholic?

40 posted on 03/14/2013 6:42:29 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: Cronos
And so too does the Unitarian Universalist in ur cliche and so too does the Jehovah's Witness. And so too do Mormons

No, it is a "cliche" when you repetitively imply guilt by association. I don't belong to a clique.

41 posted on 03/14/2013 11:36:34 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Now just you wait a darned minute! How many times have we heard that if you were ever baptised a Catholic, you're always going to be a Catholic?

I have to file the "paperwork" first, or so I am told. Thank God, HE knows those who are His, paperwork or not. :o)

42 posted on 03/14/2013 11:39:54 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
I have to file the "paperwork" first, or so I am told.

Have you ever seen what the paperwork entails?

"Roman Catholics, the largest U.S. church with a reported 69 million members, start counting baptized infants as members and often don’t remove people until they die. Most membership surveys don’t actually count who’s in the pews on Sunday. To be disenrolled, Catholics must write a bishop to ask that their baptisms be revoked..."

....it is possible, for example, to be born Catholic, married Methodist, die Lutheran and still be listed as a member of the 1 billion-member Roman Catholic Church.... "...The Catholic understanding of membership is that a person becomes a member upon baptism and remains a member for life," Gautier said. "Whether you show up at church or not is not what determines whether you're a member."
-- from the thread When It Comes to Church Membership Numbers, the Devil's in the Details

....as of last year [2006] there is now a procedure in place for removing oneself from membership in the Roman Catholic Church. While this procedure essentially results in the defector being regarded as "apostate" rather than an "ex-Catholic," it is the most forceful way to formally declare one's voluntary separation from Rome.

Information about the declaration can be found here, [ http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/ciltformaldefect.HTM ] but I had some difficulty finding out the exact procedure required for executing it. After calling the diocese of the church where I was baptized, I was ultimately directed to the diocese of Knoxville where I now reside. I was put in touch with a deacon there who was able to outline the steps needed to complete my personal exodus. As he has described it, there are 3 steps required....
-- from the thread Actus Formalis Defectionis ab Ecclesia Catholica

....Earlier this year [2010] the Catholic Church modified Canon Law removing all references to the act of formal defection. In response to this CountMeOut.ie has been contacted in recent weeks by several people who were concerned about delays concerning their defection request. Most received notice from the Dublin Catholic Archdiocese stating that they are unable to process their application until the Archdiocese decides how to implement canon law changes....

....The Dublin Archdiocese have confirmed that at the end of August changes were introduced to Canon Law and as a result it will no longer be possible for individuals to formally defect from the Catholic Church. However it added that the Archdiocese will maintain a register of names for those who have expressed the desire to defect.
-- from the thread Irish service offering defection from Catholic Church is suspended ["no longer possible to defect"]


43 posted on 03/14/2013 11:44:13 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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