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UPDATE: Rorate Caeliís diatribe against Pope Francis [Catholic Caucus]
Holy Souls Hermitage ^ | March 13, 2013 | Father George David Byers, S.S.L., S.T.D.

Posted on 03/14/2013 8:55:25 AM PDT by NYer

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1 posted on 03/14/2013 8:55:25 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer

Who the heck is Rorate Caeli?


2 posted on 03/14/2013 8:58:14 AM PDT by mware (By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West)
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...
The trads have spoken! Pope Francis is not traditional ... enough. They are not satisfied with the work of the Holy Spirit in this conclave. I would be intrigued to know just who fits their papal mold.

Rorate-Caeli blogspot.

3 posted on 03/14/2013 8:58:51 AM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: mware

see post #3


4 posted on 03/14/2013 9:05:06 AM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer
The trads have spoken! Pope Francis is not traditional ... enough.

Some radical trads have spoken but they aren't representative. It isn't fair to characterize them way. Elsewhere, I saw trad comments running nine-to-one positive, and that was just about the count, too, so really only one guy was griping.

I saw around eight diocesan TLMs in Argentina; only one in the Buenos Aires diocese proper but there is apparently very little interest there. I see nothing to complain about at this time.

5 posted on 03/14/2013 9:14:48 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture¬ô)
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To: NYer

All the good ones are dead. /joke


6 posted on 03/14/2013 9:22:25 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (Updated [http://tinyurl.com/d2opv9v] [http://tinyurl.com/ccqyjmb])
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To: steve86; NYer

Some people, bless their bowels, are just those dreadfully upset people, regardless of their taste in liturgies. We should all spare them a pitying thought or two.


7 posted on 03/14/2013 9:24:55 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("Another Catholic Pope! It must be some kind of conspiracy!" ~Homer_J_Simpson)
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To: NYer
The Pope of the World
8 posted on 03/14/2013 9:25:01 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (Updated [http://tinyurl.com/d2opv9v] [http://tinyurl.com/ccqyjmb])
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To: NYer
Unfortunately RorateCaeli came up looking like a bunch of kooks and cranks yesterday. They are usually very good but they failed miserably in the prudence, charity and sound judgment departments yesterday. The orthodox Catholic world is going to be very pleasantly surprised by this Pope, even if he causes occasional consternation among the rad trads.

Even CFN's John Vennari is walking back his position from yesterday a bit (see area I bolded):

More on Pope Francis
14/03/13 12:07
2013 CFN Conclave Blog

By John Vennari

Today, March 14, is the first day under the reign of the new Pope. It is also a day when we continue to learn more about him.

Unlike Cardinal Ratzinger who was well known prior to his papal election, and who had a long paper-trail of speeches, documents, books and public activities, most people in the English-speaking world are not as familiar with Cardinal Bergoglio, now Pope Francis I.

Earlier I posted materials that spotlighted some of his disturbing practices in Argentina: participating in pan-Christian Pentecostal assemblies; celebrating Hanukkah with Jews; riotous stadium Masses more like a pop-rally circus than anything sacred.

Other aspects now surface that show another side of the man.

He appears to be devoted to Our Lady of Fatima, and according to a 30 Days interview, he prays 15 decades of the Rosary daily. I have it on good authority (not a rumor, but a letter he once sent to an acquaintance), that he personally practices the Five First Saturdays devotion.

This morning Pope Francis, quietly went to the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, the oldest church in the world dedicated to the Madonna, where he prayed before a famous icon of the Madonna called the Salus Populi Romani, or Protectress of the Roman People. He also visited the tomb of Pope St. Pius V.

In an earlier report I had said he would celebrate Mass at Saint Mary’s this morning. It appears I was operating on inaccurate information. He did not celebrate Mass, but only went to pray.

In the post-conciliar world, where the definition and practice of Catholicism encompasses a bizarre elasticity – a combination of both traditional practices and foreign elements always condemned by the Church – modern prelates tend to be mixed bags.

As time goes on, we will learn exactly what combination of elements make the man who is now Pope Francis.

9 posted on 03/14/2013 9:43:03 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: NYer

NYer, was it the holy Spirit that selected Alexander VI, or the spirit of simony? What about the other “bad Popes?”


10 posted on 03/14/2013 9:45:38 AM PDT by LovedSinner
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To: NYer
Held for the first time in the country since Pope AUTHORIZE THE

He returned the Latin Mass, with women covered by blankets

One hundred savvy faithful old liturgy were yesterday in San Miguel Archangel.

Sergio Rubin
srubin@clarin.com

Four decades after the Latin Mass with the priest facing the altar officiating was replaced by the office in the language of each country and facing the faithful, the old way of celebrating was restored yesterday at a church in Buenos Aires. It was before hundreds of worshipers eager to participate in the traditional way.

The celebration took place 48 hours after Pope Benedict XVI signed the decree (motu proprio) that releases this modality. Until Friday, the Latin mass required approval of the bishop, that process is no longer necessary. From now on, to an order of the faithful, the priest must access.

However, the Archbishop of Buenos Aires, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, arranged a fixed holding jurisdiction for the faithful locals offer a specific place and avoid the problem that many priests do not know oficiarla.

The parish is St. Michael the Archangel, in the downtown. His pastor, DOther Ricardo, is an expert in liturgy. Had to dust off the latest version of the old missal, 1962, provide for the altar, put six candles instead of two and achieve an organist who knew the old songs.

"In nomine Patris, et Spiritus Sancti et Filii" said DOther after 10, when reciting the sign of the cross with the start of the trade. Faithful mostly adults and the elderly, but also some young, blanketed several women, and almost all with missal, followed him with unction. Women were also quite long skirts. Was striking a family with three girls, all blanket.

Many attendees seemed very knowledgeable about the ancient liturgy. Even, not lacking some who slipped some discomfort because the celebration was not, in his view, entirely by the old way and mixed with modern elements.

Communion was received kneeling at the altar and in the mouth. There was no sign of peace, or prayer of the faithful, or offertory procession. "This way of celebrating Mass greatly enriched the celebration because it takes into account the elements of an ancient liturgical tradition," said Fabian leaving, 45. In turn, Carolina, 21, student of philosophy, thus considered "spiritually uplifting me more."

Father in his homily did not mention the way the celebrated. Then, asked journalists not to say that is the Tridentine Mass, but "how extraordinary Roman rite." So he sought to narrow the controversy surrounding his rehabilitation.

11 posted on 03/14/2013 9:50:04 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Well the translation is rough, but I have heard elsewhere that only one place in the whole Archdiocese is the 1962 Latin Mass celebrated. I fear greatly that we have elected the wrong person as Pope!
12 posted on 03/14/2013 9:57:57 AM PDT by LovedSinner
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To: LovedSinner

I attend the TLM every Sunday at a diocesan parish that started this mass on the day Summorum Pontificum took effect. Even though this parish is 35 miles from home we joined this parish in 2007.

I have no concerns whatsoever about the continued growth of the TLM under our new Pope Francis. He will not do anything to undermine the freedom Pope Benedict granted to the TLM. And unlike Pope Benedict I would not be at all surprised to see Pope Francis publicly offer a TLM some day. Seriously. He just strikes me as the type who, once he learns something is the Lord’s Will, he will simply make it his own. I suspect under the influence of our Pope Emeritus this will become reality.


13 posted on 03/14/2013 10:06:47 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: LovedSinner
NYer, was it the holy Spirit that selected Alexander VI, or the spirit of simony? What about the other “bad Popes?”

Borgia, by a bare two-thirds majority secured by his own vote, was proclaimed Pope on the morning of 11 Aug., 1492, and took the name of Alexander VI. That he obtained the papacy through simony was the general belief (Pastor, loc. cit.) and is not improbable (Raynaldus, Ann. eccl. ad an. 1492, n. 26), though it would be difficult to prove it juridically, at any rate, as the law then stood the election was valid.

In a recent interview, Benedict XVI was asked the same question. His response provides some insight:

“I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope…I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined. There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Over the centuries, the process has evolved into what we witnessed this week. If you have watched any coverage of this event, you probably heard much said about the setting: The Sistine Chapel. As the cardinal prepares to vote, he carries the document with the name up to a large urn placed on top of an altar. He is facing Michelangelo's Last Judgement, a fresco that even features a cardinal in hell. He then avows:

'I call on the Lord Jesus who will be my judge to witness that I am voting for the one I believe to be worthy'

That is a powerful moment for the cardinal as he is reminded of how his vote will be held accountable at the Last Judgement.

As for the "bad popes", it is interesting to note that not one of them ever erred in teaching on matters of faith or morals. THAT is testimony of how the Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church, through an unbroken line of successors all the way back to St. Peter.

Thank you for the question!

14 posted on 03/14/2013 10:17:10 AM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer
That was a good reply, NYer. I liked that quote from Pope Benedict.

I know the new Pope will not fail on the things that the Pope cannot fail on (abortion, same sex “marriage” and so on), but I do question the need for everyone to praise him so thoroughly.

I dislike that he has abandoned the red cape (I forgot how its name is spelled), and his focus on poverty. I understand the corporal works of mercy, but we do not need St. Francis of Assisi in the Papacy now, we need a tough administrator who will clean house in the Vatican and around the world! There is a reason why St. Francis was canonized a saint never made Pope (or Cardinal, or even bishop) - his strengths were not that of a Pope!

Other Popes have realized this, and not taking the Papal name Francis is just the tip of the iceberg. The Pope is not a philanthropist!

15 posted on 03/14/2013 10:26:31 AM PDT by LovedSinner
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To: NYer

One should be careful about this knee-jerk reactionary rubbish. It does the Church and the salvation of souls no good, no good at all.

________________________________

I very much agree with Fr. Byers. It is so sad to see such self-righteousness. We must pray for them for a true spirit of repentance.


16 posted on 03/14/2013 10:53:01 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

He appears to be devoted to Our Lady of Fatima, and according to a 30 Days interview, he prays 15 decades of the Rosary daily. I have it on good authority (not a rumor, but a letter he once sent to an acquaintance), that he personally practices the Five First Saturdays devotion.

_______________________________

And he was chosen to be Pope on the 13th day of the month.

;-)


17 posted on 03/14/2013 11:14:57 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: LovedSinner

I have seen indications that he thinks internal conversion of heart is part and parcel of caring for the poor. As such, I would hope that he will expect his clergy to humbly do the work and the penance of cleaning house to get rid of “filth” in the Church. I think he will hold his people accountable. It will not be business as usual.

I do think, though, that we should not expect him to pay attention to America and our issues all the time, though. He may be more aware of, and focused on, cleaning up problems in South America, especially where clergy has been Marxist-influenced. He already has experience with that.


18 posted on 03/14/2013 11:33:50 AM PDT by married21
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To: mware
Who the heck is Rorate Caeli?

I always thought a caeli was an Irish dance party, but the rorate is a myst'ry to me!

Happy St. Patrick's month to all!

19 posted on 03/14/2013 11:58:26 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: married21

I hope you are right about the first part of what you said.


20 posted on 03/14/2013 1:01:54 PM PDT by LovedSinner
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To: LovedSinner
we do not need St. Francis of Assisi in the Papacy now, we need a tough administrator who will clean house in the Vatican and around the world!

Dear friend, I have a special devotion to St. Francis of Assisi. Most people associate the saint with poverty and preaching to the animals. To understand why the newly elected pontiff chose St. Francis, it is good to take a quick look at the early life of St. Francis.

Francis enjoyed a very rich easy life growing up because of his father's wealth and the permissiveness of the times. He was constantly happy, charming, and a born leader. As he grew up, Francis became the leader of a crowd of young people who spent their nights in wild parties. He attracted to himself a whole retinue of young people addicted to evil and accustomed to vice." Francis himself said, "I lived in sin" during that time. Listening to wandering troubadours, he fell in love with France. Despite his dreaming, Francis was also good at business. But Francis wanted more..more than wealth. But not holiness! Francis wanted to be a noble, a knight.

Finally a call for knights for the Fourth Crusade gave him a chance for his dream. But before he left Francis had to have a suit of armor and a horse -- no problem for the son of a wealthy father. And not just any suit of armor would do but one decorated with gold with a magnificent cloak. But Francis never got farther than one day's ride from Assisi. There he had a dream in which God told him he had it all wrong and told him to return home. The boy who wanted nothing more than to be liked was humiliated, laughed at, called a coward by the village and raged at by his father for the money wasted on armor.

Francis started to spend more time in prayer. He went off to a cave and wept for his sins. Sometimes God's grace overwhelmed him with joy. One day while riding through the countryside, Francis, the man who loved beauty, who was so picky about food, who hated deformity, came face to face with a leper. Repelled by the appearance and the smell of the leper, Francis nevertheless jumped down from his horse and kissed the hand of the leper. When his kiss of peace was returned, Francis was filled with joy. As he rode off, he turned around for a last wave, and saw that the leper had disappeared. He always looked upon it as a test from God...that he had passed.

His search for conversion led him to the ancient church at San Damiano. While he was praying there, he heard Christ on the crucifix speak to him, "Francis, repair my church." Francis assumed this meant church with a small c -- the crumbling building he was in. Acting again in his impetuous way, he took fabric from his father's shop and sold it to get money to repair the church. His father saw this as an act of theft -- and put together with Francis' cowardice, waste of money, and his growing disinterest in money made Francis seem more like a madman than his son. Pietro dragged Francis before the bishop and in front of the whole town demanded that Francis return the money and renounce all rights as his heir.

The bishop was very kind to Francis; he told him to return the money and said God would provide. That was all Francis needed to hear. He not only gave back the money but stripped off all his clothes -- the clothes his father had given him -- until he was wearing only a hair shirt. In front of the crowd that had gathered he said, "Pietro Bernardone is no longer my father. From now on I can say with complete freedom, 'Our Father who art in heaven.'" Wearing nothing but castoff rags, he went off into the freezing woods -- singing. And when robbers beat him later and took his clothes, he climbed out of the ditch and went off singing again. From then on Francis had nothing...and everything.

Francis went back to what he considered God's call. He begged for stones and rebuilt the San Damiano church with his own hands, not realizing that it was the Church with a capital C that God wanted repaired. Scandal and avarice were working on the Church from the inside while outside heresies flourished by appealing to those longing for something different or adventurous.

Soon Francis started to preach. Francis was not a reformer; he preached about returning to God and obedience to the Church. Francis must have known about the decay in the Church, but he always showed the Church and its people his utmost respect. When someone told him of a priest living openly with a woman and asked him if that meant the Mass was polluted, Francis went to the priest, knelt before him, and kissed his hands -- because those hands had held God.


Francis did not try to abolish poverty, he tried to make it holy. Francis was a man of action. His simplicity of life extended to ideas and deeds. If there was a simple way, no matter how impossible it seemed, Francis would take it. So when Francis wanted approval for his brotherhood, he went straight to Rome to see Pope Innocent III. You can imagine what the pope thought when this beggar approached him! As a matter of fact he threw Francis out. But when he had a dream that this tiny man in rags held up the tilting Lateran basilica, he quickly called Francis back and gave him permission to preach. So, our rallying cry to our new Holy Father should be:

"Francis, repair our church."


21 posted on 03/14/2013 2:16:25 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer
That may be the most moving post that I have ever read here on the Religion Forum.

"Francis, repair our church."

Amen, NYer!

22 posted on 03/14/2013 2:25:14 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Thank you, Brian, for posting the updated information. You wrote, They are usually very good but they failed miserably in the prudence, charity and sound judgment departments yesterday.

The beauty of the Catholic Church, as I see it, is its ability to accommodate the desire of Catholics to worship our Lord in a particular manner. This is a tremendous gift! It's a big church in which there are many chapels. We saw this evidenced over the past few days in the procession of cardinals into the conclave and at today's mass.


Bechara Boutros Cardinal Rai, (my) Patriarch of Antioch, for the Maronite Church


Baselios Cardinal Cleemis of the Syro-Malankar Church


Antonios Cardinal Naguib. While he was at the conclave, Patriarch Ibrahim Isaac Sidrak was enthroned as patriarch of the Coptic Catholic Church on March 12


George Cardinal Alencherry of the Syro-Malabar Church

There was another cardinal from the Greek Catholic Church but I can't recall his name. Each one was shown dignity and respect for their respective office.

While no one has so stated, I expect that these "traditionalist catholics" would prefer to see the entire Latin Church restored to the Traditional Latin Mass. I expect they would also like to see the pope don the papal tiara and be carried on a papal throne. I get the impression from their comments that they hold the Novus Ordo liturgy in contempt and feel the new pope should adopt the TLM as the form of liturgy he will celebrate.

Had an Eastern Cardinal been elected, I wonder how they would have reacted. In reading through some of the comments posted on that site, what upset me most were those directed at Cardinal Bergoglio's attendance at various non-Catholic worship services. Those comments stand in contrast to UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO.

Would appreciate your comments. Thank you, Brian.

23 posted on 03/14/2013 3:26:06 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: JimRed
"I always thought a caeli was an Irish dance party, but the rorate is a myst'ry to me!    Happy St. Patrick's month to all! "

- - - - - - -

"Rorate" is the way one pronounces "Great!!!" after imbibing a few too many quaffs of Jameson or Guinness

Pray that Pope Francis will remain faithful to the Faith of Our Fathers

24 posted on 03/14/2013 3:31:20 PM PDT by Heart-Rest ("Sing to the Lord a new song; sing to the Lord, all the earth!" Psalm 96:1)
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To: NYer

Now, now NYer, the article was not quite as bad as you made out. They seemed to stick to the facts which are really par for the course; the Roman Catholic Church which should be the fountainhead of charity for all Catholics will bend over backwards for the likes of Barack Obama, but has precious little outreach for her most traditional devotees. Some progress has been made under Pope Benedict XVI but I have yet to see anything in these parts. The excuse is always that there’s no demand. Try once a year and see what happens, build from there. (They won’t of course).
Most of the complaint in the article centered around the valid point that an amalgam of Novus Ordo and Traditional Mass is not what the traditional Catholics are looking for and is truly a slap in the face along the lines of “Fine. You want a traditional Mass? We’ll give you our version and you’ll like it.” Again, where is the charity?
I currently have four daughters in Catholic school and you would be appalled at the garbage that I have to deal with. I’m not talking about anything that any serious Catholic would consider radical either. “Father, can we please do Something about the grinding being done at the dances?” My words fall on deaf ears. Everyone just wants to be liked, I guess. But no one gets nailed to a cross for being nice and well-liked, do they?


25 posted on 03/14/2013 4:37:53 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Conservatism is primarily a Christian movement.)
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To: trisham
Francis, rebuild my Church

26 posted on 03/14/2013 6:19:18 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: NYer; ColdOne; navymom1; Pat4ever; RIghtwardHo; Reaganite Republican; Clintons Are White Trash; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

27 posted on 03/14/2013 6:26:51 PM PDT by narses
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To: LovedSinner

You have the funds to rip out and build all new altars that face east? In every Parish throughout the diocese, regardless of whether or not the parish priests are competent enough to deliver the Trinitine form?

If so, Write the check.


28 posted on 03/14/2013 6:34:18 PM PDT by rwilson99 (Please tell me how the words "shall not perish and have everlasting life" would NOT apply to Mary.)
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To: NYer
While no one has so stated, I expect that these "traditionalist catholics" would prefer to see the entire Latin Church restored to the Traditional Latin Mass.

Me too, frankly. And some at the Vatican apparently agree: Vatican official: "The new Mass is a passing phase. In 50 years, that will be entirely clear."

I get the impression from their comments that they hold the Novus Ordo liturgy in contempt and feel the new pope should adopt the TLM as the form of liturgy he will celebrate.

Trads can dream. I attend the TLM every Sunday and the Novus Ordo on weekdays. Someday I hope I am able to attend the TLM daily.

Had an Eastern Cardinal been elected, I wonder how they would have reacted.

Many trads have taken refuge, short term or long term, in the Eastern Rites. We attended Byzantine Divine Liturgies for 3 years. I don't know any trads that have a problem with eastern rite hierarchy in any way whatsoever.

In reading through some of the comments posted on that site, what upset me most were those directed at Cardinal Bergoglio's attendance at various non-Catholic worship services. Those comments stand in contrast to UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO.

Most trads have a real problem with the documents of Vatican II. The SSPX believes VII ushered in false ecumenism. Trads want to see the return of true ecumenism, i.e., efforts to bring non-Catholics into the One, True Church. I don't see that as a bad thing. The "ecumenical" practices of the post-Vatican II Church are not beyond reproach.

29 posted on 03/14/2013 6:41:36 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: NYer
I expect that these "traditionalist catholics" would prefer to see the entire Latin Church restored to the Traditional Latin Mass. I expect they would also like to see the pope don the papal tiara and be carried on a papal throne. I get the impression from their comments that they hold the Novus Ordo liturgy in contempt and feel the new pope should adopt the TLM as the form of liturgy he will celebrate.

I think this overstates things a bit, at least as I understand from reading various traditional blogs and fora. Though I am not technically a traditionalist (I have never been to a TLM since they have been banned or effectively banned in my diocese since time immemorial) I am quite sympathetic to their position and I do think what they seek is generally a good thing. On the whole the traditionalists I know and speak to online do not feel that the OF is evil or invalid, but simply inferior. They also think that the TLM is truly Catholic and part of the deposit of faith which means it should be defended and promoted regardless of whether people continue to use the OF. And while I don't doubt they would love to see the Holy Father celebrate in the EF their real worry is more that they will not be allowed to do so themselves. And, to be honest, they have a good reason to fear if history means anything. We should remember that the Mass they love was really entirely forbidden for years, and anyone who wished to celebrate according to that historic form was castigated as somehow schismatic and medieval.

What if your own church's Liturgy were abrogated suddenly and anyone celebrating it were attacked as divisive? What if this went on for thirty or more years and then you were allowed only one such liturgy a month hundreds of miles from your house, and it was suggested that this was more than adequate for your needs? And, what if this form were then required to include foreign additions which were never part of the patrimony of your church? Would you resent this? And, after years of such when a pope came along who finally made some gestures of tolerance how would you feel about bishops and cardinals who still said no to that authority and continued to block your access to your own church's historic liturgy? And, after all that, what would be your reaction if just such a hierarch were then to be named pope? I can tell you you might find yourself quite nervous. Quite nervous indeed.

We should pray for our new pope, and we should be as charitable as we can when speaking of him. I absolutely agree with this. And, it is undeniable that some have failed to do this. This is unfortunate. But, I also think there are far too many who, having never been where these people have been, are quick to criticise and attack them when they speak out of fear. I am not saying you are doing this, but I do think it is done. We need to be charitable to our pope, but we also should try to be charitable to these among his flock who find themselves in possibly frightening territory yet again.

30 posted on 03/14/2013 7:06:57 PM PDT by cothrige
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To: NYer
By Chris Pelicano

31 posted on 03/14/2013 7:14:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: cothrige

Excellent explanation and post, thanks.


32 posted on 03/14/2013 7:17:14 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: cothrige

Well said.


33 posted on 03/14/2013 8:10:56 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Conservatism is primarily a Christian movement.)
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To: cothrige

Well said! And ditto!


34 posted on 03/14/2013 10:16:00 PM PDT by B Knotts (Just another Tenther)
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To: NYer; Dr. Brian Kopp; cothrige; Romulus
The trads have spoken!

Some trads at Rorate Caeli have spoken. Michael J. Matt is a long time traditionalist Catholic and he has written a very sensible piece in The Remnant entitled "Pope Francis".

35 posted on 03/14/2013 10:37:12 PM PDT by ELS
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To: cothrige

Insightful +1


36 posted on 03/14/2013 10:40:42 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture¬ô)
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To: LovedSinner

I wonder if the public has designated Saint Francis of Assisi as the new Pope’s spiritual model without knowing there was another Saint Francis- of Xavier. Reviewing info on St Francis Xavier I see a very close Southern Hemisphere church person much like I see in Pope Francis. Perhaps someone has a more declared reason/purpose for Pope Francis’s choice.


37 posted on 03/14/2013 11:07:07 PM PDT by noinfringers2
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To: noinfringers2
Pope Francis himself said that he picked the name of St. Francis of Assisi. He sees his major task at hand (besides, of course, the salvation of souls) as rebuilding/repairing the Church which was a task that God gave to St. Francis.
38 posted on 03/15/2013 6:41:52 AM PDT by ELS
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To: ELS

I read what you presented as to St. Francis of Assisi and though even not being of the Catholic faith I can understand the meaning of Saint for this Francis. However, I still think that their was/is more of relationship of Pope Francis to Saint Francis of Xavier. First of all St Francis of Assisi was of the Franciscan order while both St Francis of Xavier and Pope Francis are both of the Jesuit order. Indeed I think Xavier helped found the Jesuit order with a few other priests. Secondly, the Pastoral background of Pope Francis and Xavier are much alike especially as to shepherding the poor and living their own lives. Thirdly, it strikes me, but might be of no significance, is that Pope Francis and St Xavier are both of the Southern Hemisphere. For me as a non Catholic it is a marvelous and wonderful happening that the Cardinals chose a man who would/could by his choice bring the whole world together by simply having/taking the name of two Saints.


39 posted on 03/15/2013 10:18:48 AM PDT by noinfringers2
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To: JimRed

If you’re Catholic and don’t know what “rorate caeli” means, you are out of touch with your own liturgical heritage. It’s sad when people are robbed and defrauded and think it something to joke about.


40 posted on 03/15/2013 11:44:41 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: Romulus
If you’re Catholic and don’t know what “rorate caeli” means, you are out of touch with your own liturgical heritage.

Baptized Catholic, raised Pentecostal Christian, public school kid. Latin seemed like a waste 57 years ago, since nobody outside of the liturgy speaks it any more. Married Catholic (to a former nun), choir member and occasional cantor when needed.

I believe that God looks upon the heart rather than upon the form of worship, so long as you accept Christ.

41 posted on 03/15/2013 12:40:22 PM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: JimRed

Jesus said that if we love him, we must keep his commandments. He also said that he who hears the apostles hears Him and the Father. Catholic bishops are the designated successors of the apostles, and therefore speak for them — something no one else can claim. If you accept Christ there are consequences for the way you live, including the way you worship. Faith without works is dead — and dead faith saves nobody.

Life is short, and eternity is forever. Come home to the Catholic Church.


42 posted on 03/15/2013 1:34:59 PM PDT by Romulus
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; NYer
Thanks for your comments on this thread. I was happy to see yours over at Rorate Caeli yesterday, Brian, and appreciated very much your reply to LovedSinner, NYer.

I'm one of those who's wary in the extreme but having caught his first appearance and blessing live, my heart's been full of joy from the get-go and I continue to be impressed by what I'm reading. Very hopeful.


43 posted on 03/15/2013 8:55:30 PM PDT by Askel5 († Truth suffers, but never dies -- Teresa of Avila †)
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To: ELS; Romulus

Hey you two! Hope all is well with you both.

Ran into Fr. Klores Saturday evening and I was hoping your Mom would stop for coffee on Epiphany, Romulus. Please give her my best.


44 posted on 03/15/2013 9:04:20 PM PDT by Askel5 († Truth suffers, but never dies -- Teresa of Avila †)
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To: Askel5

Wow! Good to see you around.


45 posted on 03/15/2013 9:07:50 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Askel5

I will, and please greet yours for me. Best regards.


46 posted on 03/16/2013 8:03:24 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: NYer

The “rad trads” are a tiny minority compared to the destructive force of the “progressives” or “CINO’s” (as sometimes called here).

While I agree that bashing the pope on his first day is over-reacting, keep in mind the position of the trads in the Church - when people are backed into a corner, they tend to get defensive.

These people have stayed true to the Church their whole lives thru constant turmoil and outright contradictions from their priests and bishops. Or if younger they have come to traditionalism thru conversion or discovery.

These are often the people living most faithfully according to Church teaching, are active in pro-life, and are rearing several children (often on one salary) that are the only hope for the Church’s future.

Yet they are often treated like freaks and weirdos, including by priests, even for something as simple as showing up at a Novos Ordo wearing a simple veil. I can see why after Benedict they are a bit wary of a Pope who won’t wear the red shoes! It’s a rash judgment by some, but hey, it’s understandable.

When Brogoglio rides the bus, does he notice the trads are still relegated to the back seat? If he sincerely cares about the “poor and marginalized” consider the spiritual poverty of those deprived of the Mass they love and wish to share with their children.


47 posted on 03/16/2013 9:02:11 PM PDT by baa39 (amdg)
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To: baa39; LovedSinner
These people have stayed true to the Church their whole lives thru constant turmoil and outright contradictions from their priests and bishops.

That is true for me and many others, as well. The difference, however, is that we accepted the liturgical changes, adapted as best as possible, and rose up to challenge those priests and bishops who attempted to introduce novelty. Moreover, we supported those who preferred the traditional form of the liturgy and joined them in celebrating its restoration. We remained faithful to the Vicar of Christ, through this trial and continue to pray for all priests and bishops.

These are often the people living most faithfully according to Church teaching, are active in pro-life, and are rearing several children (often on one salary) that are the only hope for the Church’s future.

Wow! What an arrogant and judgmental statement. Perhaps it has been a while since you have read Luke 15.

Yet they are often treated like freaks and weirdos, including by priests, even for something as simple as showing up at a Novos Ordo wearing a simple veil. I can see why after Benedict they are a bit wary of a Pope who won’t wear the red shoes!

Blessed John Paul II doffed the red shoes. The red color is symbolic. Saints Peter, Paul and Francis wore sandals. Jesus wore simple sandals. Would it offend you if Pope Francis decided to wear sandals? Your comments reflect a desire to see the pope dressed in the "trappings" of office that evolved over the centuries. If the pope does not show up in brocade vestments on Tuesday, will traditionalists be upset?

Consider that when St. Francis wanted approval for his brotherhood, he went straight to Rome to see Pope Innocent III. You can imagine what the pope thought when this beggar approached him! As a matter of fact he threw Francis out. But when he had a dream that this tiny man in rags held up the tilting Lateran basilica, he quickly called Francis back and gave him permission to preach. "Preach the Gospel; if necessary use words!" (no mention of elaborate vestments)

When Brogoglio rides the bus, does he notice the trads are still relegated to the back seat? If he sincerely cares about the “poor and marginalized” consider the spiritual poverty of those deprived of the Mass they love and wish to share with their children.

No pope will step into office, wave his hand and declare that the Novus Ordo liturgy is abolished. As Catholics we are very blessed to have 22 churches in which to celebrate our faith. A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole. I am a Roman Catholic practicing my faith at a Maronite Catholic Church. To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

48 posted on 03/17/2013 5:43:14 AM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer
UPDATE: Rorate Caeli’s diatribe against Pope Francis [Catholic Caucus]
Pope Francis: A Disappointment for Catholics Who Don't Like Being Catholic
Updates on Pope Francis’ first day as Pope – Great moments! (truly humble man)
New Pope Slips Out Of Vatican For morning Prayer Visit

Our First American Pope
Pope Francis I clear on denying Communion to those who facilitate in abortion
Jorge Mario Bergoglio, Profession: Servant of the Servants of God
EDITORIAL:Pope Francis I bridges conservative and progressive currents
New Pope Francis called homosexual ‘marriage’ a ‘machination of the Father of Lies’
Pope Francis Is First Catholic Pontiff From The Americas; He Is Known As A Humble Intellectual
New Pope lived simple life in Argentina
"Lowly, And Yet Chosen," Enter Pope Francis (some phenomenal firsts with this election)
10 Facts about Pope Francis
Vatican Web Site Updated
Full Text of Pope Francis’ Opening Address to Catholic Faithful
9 things you should know about Pope Francis
Pope Francis I promises to be strong pro-life world leader
New Pope celebrated Hanukkah as well as Christmas
New Pope- enemy of Catholic tradition
As Cardinal, Pope Francis condemned abortion even in rape cases
Profile: New pope, Jesuit Bergoglio, was runner-up in 2005 conclave
Jorge Mario Bergoglio elected pope, takes Francis as name
Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio: a Profile
HABEMUS PAPAM!!! (Live Thread)

49 posted on 03/18/2013 4:01:02 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

WHAT?!? You are reading things into my words.

I don’t know where you got the idea I was advocating abolishing the Novus Ordo! Seems to me you are being just as judgmental as you accuse me of being.

You are fortunate to be able to “receive any sacrament” from a variety of Catholic Churches. You are wrong that any Catholic has that option.

I live in a Rural area. There is ONE parish within 50 miles of my home, with about 150 members, most over 75. Due to it being a small parish, the bishop has dumped on us an incompetent and abusive priest that his previous parish demanded the bishop remove.

These poor little old devout ladies here are traumatized by the vicious treatment from our priest. Yet get no response to their please to the diocese.

Try putting yourself in my shoes instead of criticizing me. I doubt you can imagine the suffering here, if you’re really a “NYer” - because you live in the center of the world with 100’s of options, and I am at the remote, deserted ends of the earth.


50 posted on 03/19/2013 3:24:59 AM PDT by baa39 (amdg)
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