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Does it make a difference 'which' Jesus we believe in? [Vanity of comparing the 'christs']
Colofornian | March 15, 2013 | Colofornian

Posted on 03/15/2013 8:38:27 AM PDT by Colofornian

As Easter approaches, think of this question: Does it make a difference which Jesus you believe in?

The "Jesus" of the Marharishi of Transcendental Meditation is a Jesus who never suffered -- at odds with the cross.
The "Jesus" of Guru Maharaj Ji supposedly merged with Krishna, Ram and Buddha -- at odds with the uniqueness of Jesus.
The only difference between the Moonie "jesus" and the rest of us, said, Sun Myung Moon, is that Jesus had no original sin nature.
The "Jesus" of Christian Science think of themselves as "Christian," yet they don't believe Jesus is God.
The "Jesus" of the Jehovah's Witnesses is not Almighty and is "a god," but not "THE" God; nor did He bodily resurrect.
The "Jesus" of many gnostics would in no way incarnate a human body -- because that to them would be too "corrupt" of a thing to do.
The "Jesus" of Brigham Young was one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?...Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." Brigham told us (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870) [Not exactly a "unique" redeemer among a slew full of them!]
The "Jesus" of Mormonism is a pre-existent spirit-creature; a son of a God-man whose next-in-line brother is "Lucifer/Satan" -- a "Jesus" who had to work out his own salvation; and whose blood didn't cover all of our personal sins (thereby rendering him as an incomplete, inadequate "savior").

Can somebody tell us: How can all these "Jesuses" be one-in-the-same?

Can you profess/confess to a Jesus who...
...suffered on the cross as well as a TM "Jesus" who doesn't?
...resurrected bodily and a JW "Jesus" who didn't?
...transcends us in every way and a Moonie "Jesus" who only transcends us sin-wise?
...is united with the Father & the Spirit vs. a Hindu offshoot/New Age "Jesus" who merges as part of a divine flame or divine ocean?
...is THE fully-God, fully-man incarnate son of God vs. a less-than-human embodied gnostic "Jesus"?
...is THE Savior vs. a Mormon "Jesus" who competes with ALL kinds of "saviors" on other planets (per Brigham) & ALL kinds of "saviors" on THIS planet (per Lds "prophets'" description of Baptism of the dead "saviors")?? [For documentation see: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? (The OTHER World Series: Vanity)]
...is THE Creator vs. a Mormon "Jesus," a mere spirit-creature?
...is THE Savior vs. a Mormon "Jesus" who is touted by Lds leaders as a "saved being?"
...created Lucifer (Col. 1:16-17) vs. a Mormon "Jesus" who "lucked out" on being ahead of Lucifer spirit-birth assembly line, only because of spirit-birth order???
...died BOTH for our sin nature AND ALL of our personal sins vs. a Mormon "Jesus" who didn't?

By these definitions, we'd have to define JWs, Christian Science, Moonies, New Age adherents, & all the rest as "Christians," too!

When it comes to Mormons, it's rather interesting that they exhibit a sense of "boundary identity"...they don't like it when fundamentalist LDS are identified as "Mormons!"

Are we as Christians of the Christian faith to draw ZERO boundaries as to who the real Jesus is? Can Jesus be endlessly morphed and counterfeited with pretzel logic?

For those in this age of "tolerance" who might be tempted to do so, well, good luck with helping others sort out who is the real Jesus is once a dualistic Jesus is embraced by the one-world religionists!

The apostle Paul didn't think it was so great that the early Corinthian church put up "easily enough" with those who preached another Jesus, another Spirit, and another Gospel:

3 "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

CHART: Example of why we need to compare the 'Jesuses' claimed to be 'out there': The Mormon Jesus Verses the Jesus of the Bible

(With Documentation)

Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' jesus from Jesus of Bible Mormon 'Jesus' Jesus of Bible
1. Was Jesus self-existent from all eternity past? NO: Lds say ALL "intelligences" -- including Jesus -- existed (D&C 93:29) before becoming a "spirit" child born to a divine goddess on a planet near Kolob; yet Joseph Smith could not even keep his story straight here, giving a "revelation" in 1831 that "from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ" (D&C 39:1) + Alma 13:9 talks about the "only begotten without beginning of days" I openly dare LDS to forthrightly exegete Doctrine & Covenants 39:1, which says: Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ.... What does "from all eternity to all eternity" mean? "The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic...Intelligence is eternal & exists upon a self-existent principle...The first principles of man are self-existent with God." Smith, p. 210 [TofPresidents of the Church] YES: Bible: Before Abraham was, "I AM" (John 8:58) ["I AM" is a divine Name first introduced in Exodus 3:14 and means, "The Self-Existing One"...THE Jesus is self-existent and didn't need a "mom god" on a planet near Kolob to "progress" in His life. Mormons flat-out deny the teaching found in John 1:1, 18 and Micah 5:2, because they claim Jesus was part of a past creation process – (obviously if Jesus’ Mormon “father” was once a man, then Jesus was at some point “less” in stature at that “time”) * "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us [Jesus]" (Jn. 1:1,18). * ”But thou, Bethlehem Ephrata, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2)
2. Is the title 'firstborn' as applied to Christ linked to being the "elder brother" of you and me as pre-earth spirits, or to Christ as pre-eminent heir and creator of all things? The Firstborn "spirit" of many born spirits on a planet near Kolob; the 'Mormon Jesus' at his "spirit birth" was only "more special" at his "spirit birth" than you or me only because He was the "firstborn" In Hebrew culture, the firstborn = "heir"...Jesus was not the "first" to be born...though Paul also adds in Col. 1:18 Jesus was the "firstborn of the dead" -- the first to rise from the dead. Colossians 1:15-16 explains this Jesus as "heir" -- "firstborn" -- as this Greek word meant pre-eminent -- or has first right over all creation...Psalm 80:27 demonstrates this idea of priority of position as Col. 1:16 says Jesus is creator of all, all things were created for Jesus (cf. Hebrews 3:4)
3. Can the 'Creator' be One who was 'created' (as a 'creature')? YES "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269 implying that "Christendom" postulates a "mythical Christ" because we say Jesus is "uncreated" -- and part of a "triple unity" with the Father and Holy Spirit). NO: 16 For by him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL things were created by him, and for him: (Col. 1:16)
4. Was Jesus as Son of God perfect from eternity past? NO: "Even Christ himself was NOT perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness." (Lds 6th "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68; cf. Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153) * "...we have a correct idea of the character of the Son from the writings of the apostles, so far as they learned it. But while he was tabernacling in the flesh, he was more or less contaminated with fallen nature." (Brigham Young, JoD vol. 6, p. 95) YES: "He made Him WHO KNEW NO SIN to be sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); Christ "did no sin" (1 Pet. 2:22)
5. Was Jesus always divine from eternity past? NO: * "Jesus BECAME a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." (p. 51 Milton Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages); * "Christ ATTAINED Godhood while yet in pre-existence..." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323) YES: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, John 17:5); ...unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever (Heb. 1:8)
6. Was Jesus born "at" Bethlehem? NO: "...he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem..." (Alma 7:10, Book of Mormon) YES: Actual Jesus born IN Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1) not "at Jerusalem" Was Jesus born "at Jerusalem"?
7. Was one of the purposes that Christ came to earth was so that He, Himself could become a "saved being?" YES: The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being” (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a SAVED BEING...(McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) Please also see... * McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation) and * McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72] NO: I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).
8. Is Jesus but one 'savior'-'redeemer' among many? YES: The "Jesus" of Brigham Young is one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?... Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870); cf. how Mormons name themselves as "saviors" -- numerous citations: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? NO: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14); "They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is THE Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)
9. Were our sins 'atoned' for in the Garden of Gethesemane? YES: * "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood more so than on the cross." (BYU Professor Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! ABible! p. 282) * "It was there [Gethsemane] that the Savior paid the price for all the sorrows, sins and transgressions of every human being who ever lives or ever will live." (Seventy -- Second Quorum -- Wolfgang H. Paul, "Gratitude for the Atonement," Ensign, June 2007, p. 15) NO: This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims in Col. 1:20: "And, having made peace through the blood of the cross..."
10. Was Jesus quite violent at the point of His death? YES: Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith talked about "...a period of darkness at the death of Christ... "greater period of darkness and terrible punishment came upon the people in the Western Hemisphere because of their extreme wickedness..." (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, p. 45, Deseret Book Co., 1960) Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to bring down destruction (3 Nephi 9:12) and ensure that people would "howl" in that destruction (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to ensure people would be in "continual...mourning" (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5); the Book of Mormon jesus came to yield complete darkness for three days (3 Nephi 8:23) NOTE: Please read 3 Nephi 8:8-->3 Nephi 9:12 for entire picture of overwhelming destruction caused by the Mormon 'Jesus': Cities were supposedly all either sunk by the Mormon jesus, or horrifically burned to death, plus for added emphasis, ”many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land...” (3 Nephi 9:12)...All told, upon the Mormon jesus' death, he supposedly unleashes punishment. He levels 16 cities, killing 70,000-->90,000 people! [Note: Nothing of the kind is stated in the Bible!] Yes, there was judgment on the cross! Yes, it was terrible!
But the real Jesus absorbed all of that judgment and terror -- our very sins -- there on the cross! The sad result is that too many LDS & RLDS alike ONLY see the Book of Mormon Easter judgment upon people! The week that followed the Book of Mormon jesus’ resurrection, was a terrible 4 days or so! No wonder a tremendous aversion to the cross exists among Mormons due to Joseph Smith's version of post crucifixion events!
NO: The Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10), to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10), and to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5)
11. Did Jesus really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature? NO: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church: From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church... Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN) The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."] The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency." YES, BOTH: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Other Biblical verses rejected: 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:24; Heb. 1:3
12. Is Christ's powerful atoning blood diluded to 'anemic' levels? YES: Although the Book of Mormon makes some solid statements about Christ's powerful atoning blood (see, for example Mosiah 3:18), Mormon leaders wind up accusing Jesus of having rather anemic blood; yes, Lds "scriptures" highlight His blood as one which cleanses from unrighteousness (Alma 7:14, Book of Mormon; D&C 76:41, Doctrines & Covenants; Moses 6:59, Pearl of Great Price) -- unfortunately such ultimate cleansing is rooted solely on ability to keep commandments: "That by keeping the commandments, they MIGHT be washed and cleansed from all their sins." (D&C 76:52). Other related statements to diluting cleansing power of Christ's blood: * "Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135-136) * "Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93). So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism! * "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one's salvation. Many go so far, for instance, as to pretend, at least, to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. His blood, without other act than mere belief, they say, makes us clean." (Lds Tract titled, "What the Mormons Think of Christ, p. 31) * "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants" (Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, Journal of Discourses, 3:247) NO: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7); "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood" (Rev. 1:5); "... with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."(Rev. 5:9); "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14); "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood." (Heb. 13:12); "Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus..." (Heb. 10:19); "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Eph. 1:7); Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:9)
13. Is Jesus as unique as the Bible makes Him out to be? NO: Due to unique Lds doctrine that (a) we were all eternal; (b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus; (c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation"; (d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people; (e) all temple Mormons become gods. (f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship. The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!) YES: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of THE ONLY begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) Jesus is either "the ONLY begotten Son" from eternity -- not one of MANY begotten spirit sons in some pre-existence -- or He is not unique; and if Lds say "begotten" references such new "condition" Jesus acquired upon conception in Mary's womb, how is it that Jesus suddenly became a Son and the Father suddenly became a Father -- unless it's true that Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie & Lds "prophet" Brigham Young taught that the paternity was a literal one -- that the Father came down and had sex with Mary!!!
14. Can Jesus be prayed to directly? NO: Yet... “And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and God…when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him…And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him…And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.” (3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26, Book of Mormon) YES Stephen, Acts prayed directly to Jesus! While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59)


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: cults; inman; jehovahswitnesses; jesus; mormonism
From the article:

As Easter approaches, think of this question: Does it make a difference which Jesus you believe in?

The "Jesus" of the Marharishi of Transcendental Meditation is a Jesus who never suffered -- at odds with the cross.
The "Jesus" of Guru Maharaj Ji supposedly merged with Krishna, Ram and Buddha -- at odds with the uniqueness of Jesus.
The only difference between the Moonie "jesus" and the rest of us, said, Sun Myung Moon, is that Jesus had no original sin nature.
The "Jesus" of Christian Science think of themselves as "Christian," yet they don't believe Jesus is God.
The "Jesus" of the Jehovah's Witnesses is not Almighty and is "a god," but not "THE" God; nor did He bodily resurrect.
The "Jesus" of many gnostics would in no way incarnate a human body -- because that to them would be too "corrupt" of a thing to do.
The "Jesus" of Brigham Young was one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?...Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." Brigham told us (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870) [Not exactly a "unique" redeemer among a slew full of them!]
The "Jesus" of Mormonism is a pre-existent spirit-creature; a son of a God-man whose next-in-line brother is "Lucifer/Satan" -- a "Jesus" who had to work out his own salvation; and whose blood didn't cover all of our personal sins (thereby rendering him as an incomplete, inadequate "savior").

Can somebody tell us: How can all these "Jesuses" be one-in-the-same?

From the article:

The apostle Paul didn't think it was so great that the early Corinthian church put up "easily enough" with those who preached another Jesus, another Spirit, and another Gospel: 3 "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

1 posted on 03/15/2013 8:38:27 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

God is capable of anything, perhaps it’s a miracle?


2 posted on 03/15/2013 8:40:04 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: Colofornian

More than one Jesus?

Heresy.

And there were heresies in those days. Just as this is heretical.

There is only one Father, one Son (Jesus), and one Holy Spirit.


3 posted on 03/15/2013 8:45:06 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Colofornian

I didn’t scroll though the whole thing yat. Did it mention the false “jesus” of the koran, too?


4 posted on 03/15/2013 8:46:46 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Colofornian

Yes, it does make a difference.


5 posted on 03/15/2013 8:47:08 AM PDT by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: Colofornian

Very detailed information.


6 posted on 03/15/2013 8:49:16 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Colofornian

With all the different Jesus’ running around the landscape you’d need an ID card to figure out each one. There is just the one Yashua.


7 posted on 03/15/2013 8:52:01 AM PDT by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: Colofornian

Now Coptic scrolls tell us Jesus was a shape shifter.


8 posted on 03/15/2013 8:53:06 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: Colofornian

The one who said “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” is the one I believe in.


9 posted on 03/15/2013 8:55:12 AM PDT by yarddog (Per Ardua Ad Alta.)
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To: Colofornian

Fortunately, Jesus was coherent enough to the Founders and the majority of colonists in the New World to have created The United States, which couldn’t have happened, and as we can readily see, will not continue without him.

And I’m a Noachide.


10 posted on 03/15/2013 9:03:40 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Colofornian

I always felt the best advice is for us to mind the logs in our own eyes before wailing about the specks in others.

The goal is to bring others lovingly to Christ. Does tearing down other people accomplish this?


11 posted on 03/15/2013 10:02:00 AM PDT by Owl558 ("Those who remember George Satayana are doomed to repeat him")
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To: Owl558
I always felt the best advice is for us to mind the logs in our own eyes before wailing about the specks in others. The goal is to bring others lovingly to Christ. Does tearing down other people accomplish this?

#1...it seems to me that to accuse somebody else -- as you have done -- of "tearing down other people" ... is itself "tearing down" somebody else.

If you "ALWAYS" consider it "the best advice...to mind the logs in our own eyes before wailing about the specks in others," did you actually do that before you made this post? (Did you in fact mind the logs in your own eyes?)

If "Minding the logs in our eyes" = NEVER critiquing anybody, then why in God's Name are you critiquing me?

Haven't you refuted yourself?

#2...Jesus comforted the afflicted; and afflicted the comfortable...especially the legalistic Pharisees.

I can point to no religious group more legalistic than the Mormons today.

Would you then castigate Jesus for the way He "lovingly" spoke to the Pharisees?

In John 8, Jesus said to their face that they were "children of the devil." Now are you accusing Jesus of failing to be "lovingly" there?

More Jesus on the legalists:

Matt. 15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matt. 16:12: ...guard against the yeast...against the TEACHING of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Luke 11:52: ... you have taken away the key to knowledge.
John 8:44,47: You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies…The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
Matthew 23:2-4: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

Mark 7:6-8,13: He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” …13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Matthew 23:2-7, 13-34 : 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

12 posted on 03/15/2013 10:13:20 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Owl558

Entire chapter of Matthew plus commentary:
(for your edification)

Matthew 7
(KJV)

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Commentary:

Matthew continues to arrange Jesus’ teaching in a relevant, pastoral way for his readers. Just as outward acts of righteousness can be misleading (6:1-18), we should avoid any external evaluations of individuals (7:1-5) and certainly should not trust all religious claims (7:15-23). Jesus’ promise concerning prayer (7:7-11) expands his earlier discussion of private prayer (6:5-15) and seeking the kingdom first (6:32-33). (NIV obscures the flow of thought by translating the first “seek” as run after; that Greek term can be stronger, but in this context it contrasts with the closely related term in the next verse.) Jesus’ admonition to self-examination (7:1-5), warning that few will enter God’s kingdom (vv. 13-14), observation that one’s behavior reveals one’s character (vv. 15-20) and caution that our lives and not just lips must acknowledge Christ (vv. 21-23) suitably climax in his final warning that only those who obey his teaching will endure the judgment (vv. 24-27).


13 posted on 03/15/2013 10:16:49 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Owl558
I always felt the best advice is for us to mind the logs in our own eyes before wailing about the specks in others.

I've posted before:

11 Simple Rules to Disparage Your Neighbor-Poster as a Thread Disruptor

Note: 'DPs" = Disparaging Posters -- those who castigate others for 'castigating' others [Yes, they are self-refuting, double-standard, two-faced hypocrites

From that, Rule #2 fits here:

THOU SHALT & THOU SHALT NOT RULES OF DISPARAGERS & DISRUPTORS [What Poster is Really Saying] Repackaged Framing by DPs to Hide REAL message... Basic problem, approach, and/or sin that disparaging posters need to address/reprent of... Basic problem, approach, and/or sin that disparaging posters need to address/reprent of... If disparaging posters were consistent, we would see them...
RULE #2: THOU SHALT FOLLOW MY PERFECT SPIRITUAL VISION & REMOVE THINE BEAMS & LOGS IN THINE OWN EYE Tries to come across as Pseudo-'Biblical': Thou shalt take thy beam/log out from thine own eye. [The 'Thou Shalt Not' version of this is: "Thou shalt not judge."] (a) Assumes, any "beams" in their own eyes have been removed, allowing them to have the perfect spiritual vision to castigate other posters. Having supposedly assessed the situation with this perfect spiritual vision, "obviously" the ones being disparaged need to join their "perfect vision club" so that all posters can be on the same "page"; (b) This is self-refuting: If a person cannot 'judge' someone else, then what business is it for a DP to come in and 'judge' another poster? (c) Epic failure re" lack of Biblical understanding re: how we as Christians can righteously judge, having the "mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2) -- and that this is simply called "discernment"...(d) This also becomes quite "rich" if the message is NOT to "judge" -- all as they engage in #3...judging others' inward motives, temperaments and dispositions! Well, under (c) above -- if such discernment ("judgment") wasn't exercised, EVERYTHING in the world would be tolerated and even parents would have no basis for passing on moral direction to their children! Even commenting negatively on a couple living together as counsel for their own kids would be dismissed as "judgmental"

14 posted on 03/15/2013 10:17:18 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Mat
15
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Mat 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Jesus, the son of God.

People can preach different images of Jesus which they concoct because they do not believe in the son of God of the Bible, and they can also preach the real Jesus and still deceive many.


15 posted on 03/15/2013 10:20:45 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: Owl558

“The goal is to bring others lovingly to Christ.”

Which Christ though? That’s kind of the point of the article, isn’t it? Do you think any old Jesus will do? Why not just believe in Jesus Ruiz, my local landscaper, if it’s just the name that counts?


16 posted on 03/15/2013 10:23:52 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: ravenwolf
People can preach different images of Jesus which they concoct because they do not believe in the son of God of the Bible, and they can also preach the real Jesus and still deceive many.

Yes. Before Jim Jones started his last church -- and his "outpost" in Guyana -- he had an orthodox background.

Leaders can go astray in a # of distinct ways beyond distorting who Jesus is.

17 posted on 03/15/2013 10:24:00 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Salvation

“There is only one Father, one Son (Jesus), and one Holy Spirit.”

Thank you. Next!


18 posted on 03/15/2013 10:54:05 AM PDT by poobear (Socialism in the minds of the elites, is a con-game for the serfs, nothing more.)
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To: Colofornian
If you were not a Hateful bigot; you'd KNOW that only the MORMON jesus is the correct one!

--MormonDupe(Seems right to me!)
















19 posted on 03/15/2013 11:33:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
Does it make a difference 'which' Jesus we believe in?




20 posted on 03/15/2013 11:35:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw
Very detailed information.

But it is ALL biased and slanted and misinformation and distortion and just plain gobbldy gook!

--MormonDuge(We have the truth; why do you resist our teachings???)











21 posted on 03/15/2013 11:36:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: onedoug
And I’m a Noachide.

Jesus (yeah; the REAL one) can help you get over this...

22 posted on 03/15/2013 11:37:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Owl558
The goal is to bring others lovingly to Christ. Does tearing down other people accomplish this?

You know, wiseone, this is a DAMNED good question!!!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

23 posted on 03/15/2013 11:39:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian

And a good ol’ Hoosier boy at that!


24 posted on 03/15/2013 11:40:38 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
Does Buddy Jesus with a bong count?

I know a few 60's relics who seem inclined that way...

25 posted on 03/15/2013 11:47:45 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Elsie
And a good ol’ Hoosier boy at that!

I shoulda looked you up when we spent those happy years in Steuben County.

26 posted on 03/15/2013 11:50:15 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Colofornian

My understanding is that Jim Jones’ only “religion” was Marxism, and he figured he could soft sell Marxism by dressing it up in religious robes.


27 posted on 03/15/2013 11:52:25 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Elsie

I think I heard that line on Battlestar Galactica.
Or was that from the Borg?


28 posted on 03/15/2013 12:08:18 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Owl558

“I always felt the best advice is for us to mind the logs in our own eyes before wailing about the specks in others.

The goal is to bring others lovingly to Christ. Does tearing down other people accomplish this?”


Who’s tearing down people? We’re tearing down false religions systems which tear people down to hell.


29 posted on 03/15/2013 12:08:54 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: dfwgator

Jones was a student pastor for a Methodist church in 1952...before going off the deep end


30 posted on 03/15/2013 12:15:30 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

I did not know that about Jim Jones, i did know a man who had been a preacher and although i was too young to know at that time, he was said to be a good one, he told me later that he found himself unfit to preach the Gospel.

Unlike some of them, He did not want to take every one down with him.


31 posted on 03/15/2013 12:17:04 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: Colofornian

“If “Minding the logs in our eyes” = NEVER critiquing anybody, then why in God’s Name are you critiquing me?”

I didn’t critique, I made a comment about my approach to evangelizing and asked a question about your approach, which you never answered, by the way. I Also like how your non-answer precludes any responsibility for self-reflection on your part.

To answer your question, yes, I did consider the logs in my eyes before posting and pray daily for forgiveness. I also pray for the wisdom to know when I’m am doing the Lord’s will and when I am not. Upon seeing how you post the same things over and over, I felt compelled to respond.

I’m asking the question honestly, without anger. If you (including the cut-and-paste responders on the thread) react angrily to a simple question about spreading the Word, that is your issue - See my point about logs in your eyes.

How does tearing down a fellow Christians’belief in Jesus, bring them closer to the Lord?

I am really at a loss to see how your approach gives greater glory to God. However, I can see how your approach might give greater glory to yourselves (pride). That is why I ask. So please actually answer if you can without all the form letter cut and pastes of your compatriots.


32 posted on 03/15/2013 12:36:38 PM PDT by Owl558 ("Those who remember George Satayana are doomed to repeat him")
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To: Boogieman

“Which Christ though? That’s kind of the point of the article, isn’t it?”

Very true and a good point. I am not defending the Islamic or Buddist “Jesus”. Please don’t think that. I am simply trying to understand the whole “my Jesus is better than your Jesus” game that Christians play with each other. If you want to put your faith in Jesus Ruiz, be my guest. But why don’t you come to Sunday worship with me and learn about a Jesus who can actually change your life?


33 posted on 03/15/2013 12:46:43 PM PDT by Owl558 ("Those who remember George Satayana are doomed to repeat him")
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To: Owl558

“I didn’t critique, I made a comment about my approach to evangelizing and asked a question about your approach, which you never answered, by the way.”


He wouldn’t have had to have answered. You said he was tearing people down. Obviously, only false religions are getting torn down. Is that a problem?

2Co 11:12-13 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. (13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2Pe 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2) And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.


34 posted on 03/15/2013 12:48:08 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Owl558

“I am simply trying to understand the whole “my Jesus is better than your Jesus” game that Christians play with each other.”


But Jesus IS better than the false Jesus of Mormonism, or of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, or of the Baha’i, and so on and so forth.

“But why don’t you come to Sunday worship with me and learn about a Jesus who can actually change your life?”


Only the real Jesus can change your life. If yours teaches something contrary to what Christ and the Apostles passed down to us, it is accursed.

Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


35 posted on 03/15/2013 12:51:01 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“We’re tearing down false religions systems which tear people down to hell.”

And I’m sure you convert many, which is good.


36 posted on 03/15/2013 12:52:05 PM PDT by Owl558 ("Those who remember George Satayana are doomed to repeat him")
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To: Owl558

“And I’m sure you convert many, which is good.”


I convert none! It is the work of God!

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The preaching of the Gospel by man is but the instrument God uses to gather His elect. If I was but the useful tool for God for the salvation of but one person, I would consider myself very blessed. Tearing down false religious systems, and sharing the Gospel, is a very worthwhile activity.


37 posted on 03/15/2013 12:59:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Owl558
I didn’t critique, I made a comment about my approach to evangelizing and asked a question about your approach, which you never answered, by the way. I Also like how your non-answer precludes any responsibility for self-reflection on your part.

Listen, if I object to homosexual activist ideology, I'm not "tearing down homosexuals"...there's a difference between opposing the "ism" vs. the people themselves.

You accused me of "tearing down people"...that, in of itself, is a "critique." And now you're backing away from that critique? (Don't think so from your latest post)

And if it's not a critique, what is it? A compliment? A high five?

I’m asking the question honestly, without anger. If you (including the cut-and-paste responders on the thread) react angrily to a simple question about spreading the Word, that is your issue - See my point about logs in your eyes.

OK, disagreement, even when strongly stated, doesn't = anger. People on these threads are not worth expending "anger" over...so now you're superimposing an emotion inside me that was "news" to me...

1 Sam. 16:7 says that ONLY God sees the inside of a person -- man sees only the outside.

If you go back to post #14 to you, I placed a "chart" there...I wrote all that over a year ago...

If you look from the second column from the right, I wrote: This also becomes quite "rich" if the message is NOT to "judge" -- all as they engage in #3...judging others' inward motives, temperaments and dispositions!

I no sooner apply that to you in post #14 -- something I wrote over a year ago -- then what do you happen to do in post #32?...Why, you proceed to judge a complete stranger's inward temperants & dispositions. You don't know my emotions.

However, I can see how your approach might give greater glory to yourselves (pride).

And not only did I write over a year ago about this penchant for judging others' temperaments & dispositions, but I wrote: judging others' inward motives, temperaments and dispositions!

So you not only negatively judge my temperament & disposition (as with "anger"), but you openly negatively judge my motive ("pride").

Are you going to continue to claim that you are not a critique bend here?

How does tearing down a fellow Christians’belief in Jesus, bring them closer to the Lord?

Which "Christians" are you referencing? And be specific as to which verbiage used "tears down" those Christians?

Are you assuming every group written about in this thread is "Christian?" And upon what basis is that assumption made?

I am really at a loss to see how your approach gives greater glory to God

Could it be because you haven't fully studied Jesus' words...and have just engaged them buffet style?

Please review the words Jesus spoke that I cite in post #12... and then answer this question: Did Jesus give His Father glory with these words? Or did Jesus bring a lack of glory to His Father with these words?

38 posted on 03/15/2013 1:31:55 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Jesus tells us which Jesus to believe in... in the one who tells you things that come to pass- AND- he will point you to salvation.

Simple.


39 posted on 03/15/2013 1:38:37 PM PDT by Truth2012
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To: Owl558

How does tearing me down — judging my inward motives, temperaments & dispositions — bring glory to your god?


40 posted on 03/15/2013 1:44:06 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Owl558

“I am simply trying to understand the whole “my Jesus is better than your Jesus” game that Christians play with each other.”

It’s not a game, because souls are at stake. We’re told to be on guard against those who preach another gospel, or another Christ, which is exactly what Mormonism does. So, once you recognize that is the situation, warning others about Mormonism’s false teaching is imperative.

” If you want to put your faith in Jesus Ruiz, be my guest. But why don’t you come to Sunday worship with me and learn about a Jesus who can actually change your life?”

I don’t want to put my faith in a gardener, I was just using that as an example to highlight the foolishness of believing everyone who says they believe in “Jesus” at face value. Believing in Jesus Ruiz is obviously far different than believing in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Believing in the Mormon Jesus is different also, just in a subtler way.


41 posted on 03/15/2013 2:05:02 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Colofornian

Geeze Us!


42 posted on 03/15/2013 4:36:37 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Owl558

We aren’t tearing anyone down.

For years I always assumed LDS was just another denomination in The Body of Christ.

They aren’t and they are clear on that.

Just shining some light on a religion that is exclusive and condemns all other religions as “Whores of Babylon, Dark Religions, etc., etc, etc.

See my next post for a very illuminating demonstration of what they think they know and what you think and didn’t before.


43 posted on 03/15/2013 4:51:03 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Owl558

How Does the Mormon Church
Really View other Churches?


© Spotlight Ministries, Vincent McCann, 2004
www.spotlightministries.org.uk



Many Mormons often give the initial impression that Christian churches are viewed with a certain level of favouritism by the Mormon faith. Zealous young Mormon missionaries, when encountering potential proselytites into the Church, will often side step what Mormonism really thinks of other churches by saying something like: "there is truth in all religions". However, the truth is that Mormonism views other churches as false religions void of all authority. In fairness to individual Mormons, it must be said that some do not really realise the extent to which the Mormon Church disagrees with Christian denominations, or, at the very least, not really thought through the implications of what they do know. The quotes in this article are all from Mormon sources.

The first reference is very important as it is from the Book of Mormon itself:

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God [i.e.. the Mormon Church] and the other is the church of the devil [i.e.. the Christian Church]; wherefore whosoever belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10).

The following source is also very important as it is a key belief of the Mormon Church and is one of the first things that the Mormon missionaries will teach prospective converts. In the first vision, when Joseph Smith went out into the woods to pray to ask God which Christian denomination he should join, he explains that God allegedly commanded him:

"...I must join none of them [Christian Churches], for they were all wrong...that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

The popular Mormon book A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by LeGrand Richards contains many derogatory remarks against the churches and their beliefs. Some of these are found in chapter 4 headed: "False Doctrines and Universal Apostasy". Excerpts from this chapter follow below:

"Erroneous Teachings of Christian Churches...One erroneous teaching of many Christian churches is: By faith alone we are saved. This false doctrine would relieve man of the responsibility of his acts..." (p. 24).

"Again, there is the erroneous doctrine of predestination...In his effort to destroy truth, Satan could hardly have hoped to deceive men more effectively and completely than to take from them, through the teaching of such doctrines, a consciousness of their own responsibilities." (p. 25).

"There is a also the false teaching of one heaven and one hell..." (p. 25).

In chapter 2 of the same book, the God of the Christian Church is mocked under the heading "The Strange Gods of Christendom". Page 13 likens the Christian God to the pagan 'gods' (plural!) that Moses and the Israelites met in the desert:

"These are but typical examples of the gods worshipped by Christian churches in the nineteenth century. Here are gods that Moses told the Israelites they would encounter as they scattered among the nations - gods "which neither see, not hear, not eat, or smell." (p. 13).

Other similar quotes from Mormon sources follow below:

"...orthodox Christian views of God are Pagan rather than Christian." (Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H. Roberts, p.116).

"...the God whom the 'Christians' worship is a being of their own creation..." (Apostle Charles W. Penrose, Journal of Discourses 23:243).

"The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:73).

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best." (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God." (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225).

"Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.177).

"...brother Joseph B. Nobles once told a Methodist priest, after hearing him describe his god, that the god they worshiped was the "Mormon's" Devil-a being without a body, whereas our God has a body, parts and passions." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:331).

"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon...." (Orson Pratt, Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, "Divine Authenticity," no.6, p.84).

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60).

"...all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives baptism or the Lord's supper from their hands will highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt people." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255).

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornication's and wickedness." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.255).

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 6:176).

The Only True Church?
The next few quotes demonstrate how the Mormon Church sees itself as the "only true Church", with membership being essential to salvation. By implication, in the eyes of Mormonism, all other churches must therefore be false:

"We must come unto Christ by being baptized into his Church. Only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can we find all the truths that will help us return to our Father in Heaven. Only in the true Church of Christ can we find the authority to perform the necessary gospel ordinances." (The Restoration: Study Guide, p. 5).

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foudation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth..." (Doctrines and Covenants 1:30)

"There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..." (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).

"The Lord provided that salvation should come through his gospel, functioning through his church...But is there such a church?...Is there such a church upon the earth? Until 1830 there was not. It had been lost through the falling away we have described in this pamphlet. In 1830 the Almighty restored his church to earth again." (Which Church is Right?, p. 17).

"This is the only true church ...This is not a church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men. They teach the doctrines of men, combined with the philosophies and ethics and other ideas and ideals that men have partly developed and partly found in sacred places and interpreted for themselves" (Spencer W. Kimball, Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.421)

Attack on the Bible
Another way that the Mormon Churchs seeks to undermine the beliefs of Christianity is to attempt to take away its authority by spreading doubt about the Bible, the source of doctrine for the Church:

"The Bible of the Old World has come to us from the manuscripts of antiquity - manuscripts which passed through the hands of uninspired men who changed many parts to suit their own doctrinal ideas. Deletions were common, and, as it now stands, many plain and precious portions and many covenants of the Lord have been lost. As a consequence, those who rely upon it alone stumble and are confused..." (Bruce R. McConkie, "Come: Hear the Voice of the Lord," The Ensign, December 1985, p 55).

"What shall we say then, concerning the Bible's being a sufficient guide? Can we rely upon it in its present known corrupted state, as being a faithful record of God's word? We all know that but a few of the inspired writings have descended to our times,... What few have come down to our day have been mutilated, changed, and corrupted, in such a shameful manner that no two manuscripts agree....Add all this imperfection to the uncertainty of the translation, and who, in his right mind, could, for one moment , suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the whole Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?" (Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p. 47).

"The Church [the LDS Church] reveres and respects the Bible, but recognises that it is not a complete nor entirely accurate record..." (Holy Bible, King James Version. Located at the back of the LDS KJV of the Bible, p. 624).

"the various versions of the Bible do not accurately record or perfectly preserve the words, thoughts, and interests of the original inspired authors." (B.R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., p.383.).

"The gathering together of the few scattered manuscripts which compose what is now termed the Bible, was the work of uninspired man...Among the vast number of professedly inspired manuscripts, scattered through the world, man, poor, weak, ignorant man, assumed the authority to select a few, which, according to his frail judgment, he believed or conjectured were of God, but the balance not agreeing, perhaps, with his peculiar notions of divine inspiration, were rejected as spurious. The few, selected from the abundance, were finally arranged into one volume, divided into chapter and verse, and named the Bible." (Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p. 3).

"Through the Prophet Joseph Smith,...we learn that the Bible does not contain all that God revealed anciently, nor did it arrive in our day without inaccuracies." (Kent P. Jackson, Ensign, 2/95, p. 63).

"...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization, founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was." (Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13).




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44 posted on 03/15/2013 4:52:00 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Owl558

“How does tearing down a fellow Christians’belief in Jesus, bring them closer to the Lord?”

That question right there is the answer.

You are not a fellow Christian in their eyes and can never be, by their doctrine.


45 posted on 03/15/2013 5:06:28 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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