Skip to comments.Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi will represent the United States at Pope Francis’ Inaugural Mass
Posted on 03/15/2013 7:44:34 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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You’re welcome, but I should be clear: I’m no expert. And from what I understand, a lot of this is based on precedent, not canon law.
For the longest time, I had a tagline from St. John Crysostom, “The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.” This was “the golden-mouthed” complaint that bishops were failing to admonish wicked sinners back in the fourth century. He was reminding them that they take on the responsibility in eternal judgment for any sins that were committed because they failed to correct moral failures among their flock.
What bubble? He is still a priest, if that’s what you mean. I’m pleased to see that Pope Francis has a keen sense of contempt for the contemptible, but I’m not imagining that he’ll trump up some charges so that Cardinal Law faces a criminal penalty.
Cardinal Law stands accused of nothing other than moral cowardice and stupid administration. In the years since, the church and the state have both created rules and laws requiring affirmative steps to prevent the atrocities that took place in Boston, but they don’t apply in his case. Now, if some clever lawyer finds some way of nailing Law for what he failed to do, I’m all cheers for that, but I’m unaware of any canonical penalty they could apply to this guy to force him to spend the rest of his days wearing burlap and ashes.
Until then, I am happy to know that there is a God in Heaven who claims vengeance for his own.
Now, however, we have a usurper in the White House and many godless reside in Congress a d certainly a number of them dwell in the Supreme Court.
Sad to witness acts enough to destroy Sodom & Gomorrah well affirmed throughout our land!
Cardinal Law seems to be doing fine and still holds his position with the organization and is still living within it, they didn’t remove him from the organization and let him find his own life as a regular person living on a pension.
He is still inside the bubble of the leadership and living quarters, he is still part of the elite insiders living among the chosen.
People who really care about their freedom don't end up reduced to praying the USSC stops BarryCare after it passes.
Human nature hasn't changed, so with rare exceptions, yes, they are all crooks or at least turn into crooks by the time they've been there four or five years. Most end up petty thiefs who feather their own nest in return for small favors and a few are major crooks who try to control the petty thieves. That's why the 17th Amendment is so horrible, it destroys an important check on human nature. The 17th wasn't about who got to decide on who would be State Senators as much as it was about making sure ideas and ideals of the majority of the people in the State as reflected in the State Legislature dictated what the State Senators would fight for and against.
Once the 17th was passed, the Federal crooks would always have the upper hand when dealing with a Senator, and would have as much influence over became Senators in a State as the State did. Once someone at the Federal level buys themself a Senator they can pour millions of dollars and thousands of free manhours into keeping them in place. Without the 17th Amendment, State Legislatures could recall and replace a Senator for whatever reason they thought sufficient. When power in a State changed from one party to the other or when something important to the State was at issue and a Senator was suspect the State could replace that Senator to ensure the State's interests were protected and the Senator didn't vote against what the majority in the State want.
There will always be some degree of corruption in politics and politics will always attract crooks. The only thing you can do is fragment power to the extent that the worst thing you'll ever have to face is moving twenty miles down the road to avoid the crooks when a county or city government gets out of hand. That means taking power away from the State government and putting it back in the hands of cities and counties right along with taking the power back from the Federal level.
Fragmenting and returning power to the lowest possible level of government should be the clearly stated goal of the Tea Party and every other group that's really conservative. Turn the fascist propaganda slogan of "power to the people" on it's ear by actually returning power to the people instead of handing their "representatives" more and more power and money "on behalf of the people". Even if that were all accomplished there would still be more than enough corruption around but at least it would be corruption that could be avoided until it can be ended.
When States don't have the 17th Amendment bridle in the mouths of their Senators, of course every level of the Federal government is going to become more and more like a feudal nobility. Even the lowest Federal employees are functionally exempt from the thousands of laws the nobility pass. At the very least the Federal lackeys on the lower rungs know that as long as they keep the machine running the way the nobility wants it run the rules will be ignored for them even if they're not technically exempt.
A nation born in rebellion against monarchy handed it's children over to "professionals" to educate and next thing you know, the Federal government reestablished a monarchy and the people educated by "professionals" are so gullible that they think changing who gets to be the king every four years means everything is still run according to the Constitution.
It comes down to whether or not Pope Francis will make it clear these people have excommunicated themselves.
Well, as a matter of fact, Pope Francis has done exactly that with regard to politicians who vote in favor of abortion in Argentina. I suspect Biden and Pelosi will be told to not present themselves because they will be refused if they do. If they ignore that advice, I believe Pope Francis will refuse them right in front of all the media vultures who probably helped King Barry come up with this deliberate challenge and insult.
You see, if they're not refused, there's a filing cabinet full of articles and commentary ready to go for slandering the Catholic Church over permitting them to violate Canon Law because they're public figures, but not ignoring "the little guy" who's violates Canon Law by being divorced or living with his boyfriend. If they're refused, that's the other filing cabinet full of articles and commentary ready to go slandering the Catholic Church for refusing them over their "political" views as if murdering infants has nothing whatsoever to do with morality.
Pope Francis knows that's how these people work and I suspect he'd rather have them using the second filing cabinet and spewing the lie that abortion is a political and not a moral issue.
So- What each individual Cardinal believes about giving Communion to public servants who openly support abortion/gay marriage/euthanasia, is the only decisive factor here?
No wonder there are so many confused Catholics about these issues.
As I understand it; abortion/open support for abortion/gay marriage/euthanasia, are all grave sins.
You are not supposed to take Communion if you have done any of them.
But if politicians, who publicly support these sins, are not chastised for receiving Communion- What kind of message does that give Catholics, and everyone else?
Are these sins not that serious, because-
Lib Catholic thinking out loud: "Hey,"Our politicians openly support these,and they still go to communion"?
It would explain extremely liberal Catholics thinking it's all OK, and getting HC every week.
I'm Catholic, and I don't get why the Church lets this go on. It sends mixed messages, IMHO.
It a combination of things.
First, there is a large percentage of priests and bishops who don't actually believe what the Church teaches. They are post-modernists and many of them are homo-socialists. They believe the Church should conform to the zeitgeist.
Then there are those priests and bishops who don't like to take sides or make waves. They go along to get along.
Then there are the priests and bishops who believe in the teachings of the Church. Of these, there is a small minority who have the courage to make a stand against public scandal.
In all fairness, who among us would want to endure being Alinskyized, especially if most of our colleagues either denied their support or even joined the opposition?
I suspect you are engaging in wishful thinking. Nobody wants an "incident" at such a joyous occasion.
Nobody will be refused Communion.
Comtinue to pray II Chron. 7:14 to heal our land.
This article is all a lie, then,
Pope Francis clear on denying Communion to those who facilitate abortion
And this one is meaningless,
Vatican Chief Justice: Pro-Abortion Politicians Must Not Receive Holy Communion
because, "everyone knows" that standing up for what the Church teaches isn't all that important anyway.
I hope one of these days there will be an occasion those who are authorities on why it's always a good time to ignore what the Church teaches think is a suitable venue for the Pope to stand by what he said. Of course, it shouldn't be an occasion when someone might be so shocked that they use their desert fork instead of their salad fork when the salad is served.
How is that possible? I went through RCIA. I don't remember any ambiguous teachings about Catholicism.
Why are they even Catholic in the first place? Why not go be priests, bishops in the church of "Whateverism" (or the Episcopal church), or they could start their own church?
And if these are "End Times" -Aren't all these people in real danger of going to Hell for all eternity?
I mean shouldn't someone point out to them what the teachings of the Church are, and that they are on the wrong track, before its too late?
For the record, IMO no one has done more damage to Christianity than smug, self righteous, arrogant, finger-pointing, so-called Christians, who spend all their time and efforts pointing out the errors of others and never once think to point in the mirror first, and work on themselves.
But when you have a situation where there is massive confusion about what the Church teaches, shouldn't it be made clear, so that no one is mis-led?
I.E. Maybe they don't have to go all "Fire and Brimstone" speech, and then publicly deny the politicians Communion, but can they can take them aside privately, and spell it out for them?
Then make an effort to inform the people of what the teachings of the Church are?
I wonder- What is the bigger sin-Being a politician who supports grave sins and takes Communion? Or being in the Church hierarchy and supporting giving Communion to politicians who openly promote/support grave sins?
Many of these people must think that they can wait until the last 5 minutes of their life to "get themselves right with the Lord" .
(or Soros probably thinks he can write the Almighty a big check and buy his way in.)
I had this type of discussion with an ardent atheist. He said he thought it was BS that a person could live their whole life doing bad things and be forgiven everything at the last second. How can it be good for people to think they can go through life doing horrible, even evil things and have it all forgiven at the last second of life?
I said" God knows EVERYTHING about you." So if the person who is asking for forgiveness, at the last second, is truly sorry, in his/her heart, that person will be forgiven.
But if the person is only asking because they think they can lie to the Lord, and pretend to be sorry, because they don't want to be punished- that it can't happen for that person- Because The Lord knows what's really in our hearts and He would KNOW that the person is not sorry, and only scared, and trying to get out of going to hell.
I don't know what these leftist Catholics and Clergy are thinking. They are literally "playing with fire".
Yes. But who knows what's going on in their heads?
Regarding Church teaching, since the publication of the Catechism, ignorance is no excuse.
In his 70s he was relieved of his position here because of sex scandals involving children and transferred to the base, and there he lives, still carrying titles and living within the bosom of the organization.
He could have been merely let go and/or retired to become a regular person and have to pay his own rent and live among the common folk here like the rest of us.
The guy is doing just fine and safely living in Rome, is he still a Cardinal? What are his titles?
Bases? Bubbles? Bosom of the organization? You say a lot of nonsense in a lot of very figurative ways. What an absurd way to say he was stripped of his position, and withdrawn to a foreign country. YOu’re simply determined to characterize things the way you want to and frankly I’ve wasted too much time on you already.
No, I am saying that Pope Francis cannot possibly have control over the entire Vatican like some kind of dictator, not after a few days as pope, perhaps not ever. The Vatican is run by a bureaucracy, and that bureaucracy reflects the wishes of the bureaucrats. To think that one man can come in and whip it into shape in a matter of days is ridiculous. And how do we know he would be willing to embarrass his guests and cause an international uproar over this? John Paul II wasn't. Benedict XVI wasn't.
And we know Timothy Cardinal Dolan wasn't:
What Pope Francis said as cardinal is to be commended. It was strong words-WORDS. If I were to see documentation that a single Argentinian politician was denied communion, I would be even more impressed.
This is our great concern, but we mustn't fool ourselves into believing it is the Catholic hierarchy's concern. We conservative Catholics want our shepherds to be strong leaders, to stand up against the scandal of pro-abort, homosexual-promoting politicians' profaning of the Holy Eucharist, but where have they ever done this? Show me ONE credible report of one of these "Catholic" politicians actually being refused Communion anywhere in the world. ONE.
Isn’t Rome the base, isn’t that the bubble, the bosom of the church organization?
You seem to be trying to portray him as being in some sort of unpleasant captivity, or serving some punishment, but that doesn’t seem to be the case at all.
He is a free man and retired, he can live most anywhere that he wants to, including here in the United states he isn’t exiled or a captive or a prisoner, forced to live at the heart of the church organization in wonderful Rome.
The guy could have just been let go and forced to support himself like a regular Joe on his pension living next door to regular people, maybe even paying his own gardeners.
The guy is doing just fine and safely living in Rome, is he still a Cardinal? What are his titles?
They think they know better. They think they are enlightened. They thing they are fighting to make a difference and drag the Catholic Church out of the dark ages into a brave new world.
From that article:
In 2004, as archbishop of St. Louis, Burke said he would not serve Communion to then-presidential candidate John Kerry (D-Mass.), now the secretary of State, because of his pro-abortion views.
And from the Papal mass in 2008:
Unless everybody's on the same page, words are meaningless.
Between the two of them, they should have a lot of confessing to do.
We have to figure out a way to reach the average Catholic voter, and I think that some highly visible cases of public humiliation and rejection, and even excommunication, or in Laws case, removal from the hierarchy and being reduced to normal citizen status and mere pew sitter, would receive massive publicity and would penetrate into the Catholic rank and file and the immigrants.
We need some flash and dazzle, some heavy public battles and publicity to reach the average people who dont keep up with much media and make them realize that they better get with the program and start voting as Christians.
71 posted on 3/15/2013 4:15:18 PM by ansel12
It can't be a broken record since it isn't a strategy at all, but it was something that sounded exciting on this thread and was posted once.
If pro-life conservatives don't figure out a way to change the Catholic vote to a conservative, pro-life vote, then we are doomed.
We have to figure out a way to reach those voters, when everyone was talking about all the bold actions this Pope was going to take, like embarrassing America's top Catholic figures who also happen to be pro-abortion democrats, I got a little hopeful.
Don't worry, as the thread progressed, I realized that nothing is going to change, it never does.
There is nothing to figure out. Those that are pro-life and stand by that principle, good. Those that are not, there is no changing. God is not involved with changing evil nature.
We have already seen success in changing the white Catholic vote in the most recent elections, we need to try and penetrate into the Catholic vote even more if we want to win elections.
We have to figure out a way to reach those voters,
I agree with you but not on a strategy of humiliation and rejection.
when everyone was talking about all the bold actions this Pope was going to take, like embarrassing America's top Catholic figures who also happen to be pro-abortion democrats, I got a little hopeful.
I think I understand your sentiments. I have no idea what to expect from this pope. What I hope for is sincere public repentance from these politicians and an end to the scandal they cause. I wouldn't say nothing will change but I think change is likely to happen more slowly than either of us would like :(
As for reaching Catholic voters, my perspective is that a call to personal holiness is less flashy but probably likely to be more effective in the long run than holding up humiliated figures for them to identify with. I don't know about you, but for me, I find it easier to change my ways when I'm motivated to achieve something good than when I'm trying to eliminate something undesirable. Just my two cents.
Ansel12, I truly beleive that reuniting Our Nation, is not by cajoling any group/bloc to short term gain. True growth will only come through, hard fought for establishment of traditional values/culture. Our current society will never allow that, until given no choice, by their own choices.
Oh for crying out loud, when the rumor was that this new Pope kicked out Law, then there was a couple of days about Law with Catholics piling on him, someone that I had never paid attention to before, but I came to accept the general catholic view here and assumed that he had done something wrong.
I never said anything about “a strategy of humiliation and rejection” of Catholic voters, that was about (again) the Catholic claims that this new Pope might humiliate and reject the two representatives of the United States, who also just happen to be our most prominent Catholics and the leaders of the Catholic political party in America.
Catholics have been voting democrat since they came here, and they evidently always will, a day or two of hope has been erased as this thread returns to the usual, for a few hours Catholics here were saying something different about Law, and Biden, and Pelosi, and how this Pope was punishing them and confronting them, then everyone got back in line.
The democrats have the Catholic vote forever, and changed the immigration laws in 1965 to import them by the tens, even hundreds of millions, and their hope for the future is to continue importing as many Catholic voters as they can.
I had a days worth of hope that this Pope was going to send a message to America that would give life a chance.
I just happen to believe Pope Francis is the sort of Pope who will do that, you don't think so, and we'll both soon know whether or not my expecting the Pope to be Catholic is too much to ask.
your Hope, is more than all the days. you live/send the message of life, please never forget that fact
You advocated a strategy of REACHING "the average Catholic voter" via "highly visible cases of public humiliation and rejection." And "massive publicity" to "penetrate into the Catholic rank and file and the immigrants." Is this not holding up disgraced Catholics for them to identify with? Did you not specify a need for "flash and dazzle, some heavy public battles and publicity to reach the average people who don't keep up with much media?" With a purpose to "make them realize they better get with the program?"
My suggestion was a call to something positive, like personal holiness, as a stronger motivator than holding up a pariah. My mistake. Negative narratives don't accommodate positive strategies.
You don’t want Vice president Biden and Ex-speaker Nancy Pelosi refused communion as was first declared that this new Pope was going to do on this thread?
I never proposed a “strategy”, I thought that was what you guys wanted and were saying that this “new” Pope was going to do, I merely expressed hope at the result.
The Catholic vote is killing us and supports the pro-abortion movement and the democrat party, what I am learning here is that there is no Catholic desire to change it.
Do you know that Catholics have only voted republican five times in history, and that non-Catholic Christians (Protestants) have only voted democrat, 3 times in history (1932, 1936, and 1964)?
I want it handled by the cardinals so they don't present themselves for communion in the first place. They should be instructed to stay in their seats and it shouldn't even get to the point of a refusal. The Mass is an occasion of solemn worship and it shouldn't be turned into a spectacle.
The Catholic vote is killing us and supports the pro-abortion movement and the democrat party, what I am learning here is that there is no Catholic desire to change it.
Now see, this is the kind of statement that perturbs me. Disagreement about methods isn't disagreement about need for change. As for supporting the proabortion movement, only ONCE in the last 5 years have I met a nonCatholic on the sidewalks outside the abortuary. But Catholics are there freezing, roasting, getting soaked, sunburned, and parched. While I can appreciate your frustration I don't appreciate being painted with the wide proabortion brush.
As for stats, it's been a long time since my stats and surveying courses, but I remember enough to look at them with a grain of salt. I don't deny that many Catholics are leaving the faith outside the voting booth. But I don't believe the data is as pure as some would have us believe. My cousin's St Bernard would be classified Catholic in some of those polls!
Bottom line, there is hope on a number of fronts but I'm too tired to get into it just now. Maybe if all of us spent more time praying for each other instead of tearing into each other we'd be making more progress ;)
Always the same, life and conservatism, truth and reality, means nothing, pretending that the Catholic vote is the opposite of what it is, is everything.
Obama, call to your people, send Pelosi and Biden to represent the Catholics as you should, it would be weird to send anyone other than the two most prominent Catholics in America, and the two Catholic leaders of the party of the majority of Catholic voters.
The Catholic vote is exactly what it is supposed to be evidently.
Look for a BIG rebuilding and clean-up of the Church to start once Pope Francis gets installed on Tuesday, inlcuding down the road going after politicos who are pro-abort/euthinasia types.
You have no idea how much I hope you're right.
That is not Cardinal Burke giving communion to Lurch Kerry,
“Catholics have been voting democrat since they came here, and they evidently always will”
You mean counterfeit Catholics. Any Catholic that follows the teachings of his church does not vote for any democrat.
And the ones that do are spitting in the face of the Catholic Church and not fit to be called Catholic. Illiterate hispanics that vote democrat know as much about the teachings of the church as the average muslim.......nothing.
But it is a Papal Mass.
The same old determination to continue empowering the left by simply chanting, ‘no they didn’t’ over and over, election after election, until the pro-life movement and conservatism is completely erased and immigration has converted America to liberalism and abortion forever.
The Catholic vote isn’t exactly a secret, it is just routine voting data.
The more we learn, the less mystery there is about why they vote democrat.
Pro-lifers first political goal should be in ending immigration, or else we never stand a chance of defeating the democrats.
Catholic immigration is either a good thing or a bad thing in regards to abortion, why do you think that the left changed the immigration laws in 1965, and fight so hard to bring in as many as they can?
Our bishop in Toledo, OH, knows the pastor of St. Louis Church/school in Custer gives, even forces,Holy Communion on non-Catholics. He excuses are bazaar. Bishops need to stop confusing the laity by allowing these abuses of the Eucharist.
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