Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

A Pope for All Christians
Christianity Today ^ | 3/13/13 | Timothy C. Morgan

Posted on 03/16/2013 11:03:44 AM PDT by marshmallow

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051 next last

1 posted on 03/16/2013 11:03:44 AM PDT by marshmallow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: All
The challenges inside the Vatican and the Catholic Church are familiar, and they are of concern to every Christian who longs for a healthy body. Two cardinals, Keith O'Brien (Scotland) and Roger Mahony (Los Angeles), are just the latest Catholic leaders who stand accused of wrongdoing. Several priests allege that O'Brien initiated "inappropriate" behavior, possibly sexual, with them. Court documents reveal that Mahony relocated priests, known to be sexually abusive, to shield them from prosecution. In addition, a money-laundering scandal has tainted the Vatican's reputation of integrity. And the so-called Vatileaks scandal has pulled back the curtain on infighting and factionalism within the potent Catholic curia, the leadership core.
A lame-duck pope. A secret dossier. Rumors of a gay cabal. A cardinal accused of "inappropriate" behavior. The Vatican is in an uproar, and church scholars say there hasn't been this much drama surrounding a conclave since 1800, when Pope Pius VI died while being held prisoner by Napoleon. One Vatican watcher says you have to go back to 1730 — when Pope Benedict XIII's right-hand man fled Rome in disguise amid allegations of corruption — to find a conclave buffeted by this much scandal....

....The pope's historic Feb. 11 announcement has been overshadowed, however, by an extraordinary wave of revelations and accusations. There were calls for cardinals accused of mishandling the sex-abuse crisis to abstain from voting. Then came a report that Britain's top cleric, Cardinal Keith O'Brien had been accused of bad behavior by priests, followed by his resignation on Monday. Over the weekend, the Vatican had to deny an Italian newspaper report that Pope Benedict abdicated because an internal probe into the so-called Vatileaks mess had uncovered a network of gay priests who were being blackmailed. Now comes the news that the pope will only let two people see the report on the document leaks — himself and his successor — despite calls for the Holy See to become more transparent....
-- from the thread 'Amateur hour': Vatican conclave drama is one for the history books, experts say


2 posted on 03/16/2013 11:15:32 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

Catholicism’s central truth, the Eucharist, The Mass, the authority of the Petrine Ministry to teach one truth, is directly antithetical to the beliefs of all other Christian religions. There aren’t many pathways to heaven. If so why proclaim one teaching and one truth? If Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, are all valid alternative paths to God, then the life and death of the Christ was superfluous.


3 posted on 03/16/2013 11:16:40 AM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

All this is irrelevant to Catholic dogma and teaching. St. Peter too sinned but he repented and was given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.


4 posted on 03/16/2013 11:18:28 AM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

What this world needs more than anything is wise, competent leadership.


5 posted on 03/16/2013 11:19:19 AM PDT by Slyfox (The Key to Marxism is Medicine ~ Vladimir Lenin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

“Getting Protestants as such to ramp up mission is not that easy, since there are so many, often bickering, voices in the mix of Protestantism. Whether we Protestants like to admit it or not, though, there is a single person in Rome who can influence Christians of every stripe to work more heartily in the cause of Christ, sometimes together (even with Catholics) and sometimes faithfully in their own theological tradition. That’s why even non-Catholics are praying fervently for the new pope. Given the monumental challenges of the 21st century, it is more important than ever that Protestants and Catholics figure out how to work together.”


The differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, however, are the same differences between life and death. The Roman doctrines of works-righteousness, prayer to saints, the devotion to Mary, and many other doctrines, are utterly incompatible with the scripture. It is not a mere difference in “traditions,” as the author claimed.

I have no problem with the Catholics doing their own thing and electing their Pope; however, he is certainly not MY Pope, nor do I even consider the Pope’s message to truly be the Gospel.


6 posted on 03/16/2013 11:52:06 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Steelfish
Catholicism’s central truth, the Eucharist, The Mass, the authority of the Petrine Ministry to teach one truth, is directly antithetical to the beliefs of all other Christian religions. There aren’t many pathways to heaven. If so why proclaim one teaching and one truth? If Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, are all valid alternative paths to God, then the life and death of the Christ was superfluous.

The chief problems I have with your post center around those two underlined words. Are you saying that Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism are "other Christian religions"? Are you saying that "all other Christian religions" claim that there are multiple pathways to heaven, or that they specifically teach that Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism are "valid alternate paths to God"?

How do you square the words of your own cardinals, to your post above?

Who, then, can be saved?

Catholics can be saved if they believe the Word of God as taught by the Church and if they obey the commandments.
Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found.
Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled.
Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will.
Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice.

God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted. But that same grace brings obligations to all who receive it. They must not receive the grace of God in vain. Much will be demanded of those to whom much is given.
-- concluding paragraph (formatting mine), from the thread Who Can Be Saved?
article by Cardinal Avery Dulles


7 posted on 03/16/2013 11:54:34 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

A Lutheran told me yesterday: “The Pope is the spiritual leader of all Christians.” It appears that only American snake handlers disagree.


8 posted on 03/16/2013 12:01:07 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

“Who, then, can be saved?
Catholics can be saved if they believe the Word of God as taught by the Church and if they obey the commandments.
Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found.
Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled.
Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will.
Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice.”


These are very good reasons to “burn any bridges” that the Catholic Church builds to meet with Protestants.

Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. Outside of Him, all are damned.

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Furthermore, Christians are born not through the will of man or even their own will, but through the will and power of God, whose Spirit blows where it wills.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Rom 8:29-31 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Salvation, therefore, from the first to the last, is the work of God. Not of ourselves, nor due to our works, for God is no respecter of persons. It is the mercy of God.

Rom 9:11-16 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is irrevocable. All those who belong to Christ eternally belong. They cannot be removed from God’s hand.

Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Notice that in none of these scriptures are we told to “join the community where you believe Christ’s will is” as a condition of salvation. In fact, the condition of salvation... is God’s choice, and not yours at all. So that all who are called by God, have their eyes opened, so that they confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, thus having their sins forgiven and their lives changed forever.


9 posted on 03/16/2013 12:14:23 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough.

No, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism are not “Christian” religions because they don’t believe in the Christ as the Son of God.

Yes, all other Christian religions (from Rev. Joel Osteen’s “prosperity” Gospel to Rev. Wright’s “socialism” gospel, etc) think and propagate what they believe is their brand of “Christianity” and thus we are presented with multiple pathways to heaven.

Trying to comment on specific excerpts made by one Cardinal of the Church without reference to the whole of his thesis is problematical. Why then evangelize? Why have missionaries? St. Paul should have left the pagans alone? Why have converts from other Christian denominations to the Catholic Church? Why did Cardinal Henry Newman, GK Chesterton, and the long parade of distinguished atheists, including a former Rabbi of Rome, bother to convert to Catholicism? Why have martyrs? Indeed, why did Christ provide the Great Commission to Peter and his Apostles to “Go forth and teach all nations....” and establish His Church (not Churches) where the gates of hell shall not prevail against it?


10 posted on 03/16/2013 12:15:13 PM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Revolting cat!

Well, golly, if a Lutheran told you so then it must be true.


11 posted on 03/16/2013 12:15:43 PM PDT by RugerMini14
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Revolting cat!

“A Lutheran told me yesterday: “The Pope is the spiritual leader of all Christians.” It appears that only American snake handlers disagree.”


Luther himself, up in heaven, would probably roll about in fury at the notion coming from a so called Lutheran. I would use the normal phrase “rolling in their graves,” but, obviously, that’s not a place a Christian’s soul remains.


12 posted on 03/16/2013 12:16:23 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Of course he is not your Pope if you are not Catholic just like a Rabbi is not my Rabbi if I am not Jewish.

However, you have to admit that the Pope is the most influential person in the world as far as Christianity goes, and even the many Protestant faiths look to the Pope for guidance on issues of Christianity.

Dogma of each faith may be different, but Christianity is born of the same roots.


13 posted on 03/16/2013 12:39:07 PM PDT by neverbluffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
Ireapect the Pope as the head of a religious denomination. He is no different from the head of my Southern Baptist denomination.
14 posted on 03/16/2013 12:39:09 PM PDT by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in thee shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadows of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Steelfish

“Trying to comment on specific excerpts made by one Cardinal of the Church without reference to the whole of his thesis is problematical. Why then evangelize? Why have missionaries? St. Paul should have left the pagans alone? Why have converts from other Christian denominations to the Catholic Church? Why did Cardinal Henry Newman, GK Chesterton, and the long parade of distinguished atheists, including a former Rabbi of Rome, bother to convert to Catholicism? Why have martyrs? Indeed, why did Christ provide the Great Commission to Peter and his Apostles to “Go forth and teach all nations....” and establish His Church (not Churches) where the gates of hell shall not prevail against it?”


That’s a question you’ll have to ask the Cardinal. It is not an opinion I have not encountered with Catholics before. In fact, on other forums, they call me bigoted for denying them.


15 posted on 03/16/2013 12:40:13 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

AMEN!


16 posted on 03/16/2013 12:43:25 PM PDT by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in thee shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadows of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Establish his Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevai; against it?

Umm..which Church do you think that turned out to be?


17 posted on 03/16/2013 12:45:14 PM PDT by neverbluffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: neverbluffer

“Of course he is not your Pope if you are not Catholic just like a Rabbi is not my Rabbi if I am not Jewish.”


The Rabbi is yet in his sins, as is the Buddhist or the Hindu or the whoever the heck, for they deny that Jesus Christ is the One True God.

It’s a strange comparison to make.


18 posted on 03/16/2013 12:45:23 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Revolting cat!

lITTLE HATEFUL, AREN’T YOU?


19 posted on 03/16/2013 12:45:49 PM PDT by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in thee shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadows of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: neverbluffer

“However, you have to admit that the Pope is the most influential person in the world as far as Christianity goes,”


No, I don’t really have to admit it at all. He’s the most influential person in the world as far as Catholicism has to go.


20 posted on 03/16/2013 12:46:56 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: neverbluffer

“Establish his Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevai; against it?

Umm..which Church do you think that turned out to be?”


The one I’m in.


21 posted on 03/16/2013 12:47:47 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

With all due respect, I think you need to study history again. Your church was not even around back then....


22 posted on 03/16/2013 12:49:35 PM PDT by neverbluffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: neverbluffer

“With all due respect, I think you need to study history again. Your church was not even around back then....”


With all due respect, the body of Christ is the church:

Eph 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, (23) Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

It isn’t walls, or even an institution, but is Christ as the head, and all Christians being the members of it.

This is the true church that has never been defeated, even when the Roman Church began to elect “universal Bishops” 300 to 400 years after the fact.


23 posted on 03/16/2013 12:56:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

As a Catholic, we believe that all Christian based religions will allow for eternal life
as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

I have respect for the Baptist Faith, just as I do for Lutheranism, Anglica, etc.

But history is cannot be changed to follow our beliefs.

There has been a Pope in place ever since Peter, one after another all the way up until the one just elected. And it all started with Peter as the first Pope after Jesus started the Church with Peter.

All other Christian denominations spawned off Catholicism... that is a fact and that is history my friend.

Why is it that nobody on the face of the earth can provide the name of the person or group that started Catholicism?


24 posted on 03/16/2013 1:01:14 PM PDT by neverbluffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: neverbluffer

Funny how you keep taking passages that substantiate your claim, but you dont take the very passage about Christ establishing Peter as the rock of the Church which was the founding of the Catholic Church?

What time is it where you are by the way?


25 posted on 03/16/2013 1:03:49 PM PDT by neverbluffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I respect the fact that you are Christian and love your Church...

I love my Church as well. I love you as a fellow Christian... we are not going to agree.

I am merely pointing out events that happened in time for which its history cannot be changed. You can interpret the Bible and passages anyway you want. That is why there are so many “Free Will Baptist Churches” and not one single cohesive unit.

I can read a passage in the Bible and interpret it anyway that fits my argument.

That does not change the fact that there has been a “physical” breathing Pope ever since Peter for thousands of years” and Peter was the first Pope.


26 posted on 03/16/2013 1:08:34 PM PDT by neverbluffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
"The influx of cradle Catholics by the millions into evangelical and charismatic congregations is historic. It shows few signs of tapering off."

A lot of that, I'm sure, is the result of the push of liberal Catholic priests and leaders toward Liberation Theology in Latin America. The new Pope was one of the Jesuits who pushed AGAINST Liberation Theology, as a young Jesuit, and as a result, was banished to the hinterlands to teach and preach. He was brought back to Buenos Aires by Pope John Paul II, when he made Bergoglio a Bishop. This, I'm sure, didn't make the liberal Jesuits very happy, and they were even more annoyed when Bergoglio was made a Cardinal, and didn't have to answer to the Jesuit Provincial anymore.

I haven't ready anything yet in "America", the Jesuit magazine, about the new Pope, but I'm curious about what they have to say. He is 'for the poor', but not in the way the Jesuits in Latin America have done it.

27 posted on 03/16/2013 1:25:44 PM PDT by SuziQ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

What I’ve read, and it was in European press, not a word about it stateside, is that the Pope’s immediate problem with the Jesuits is what was called ‘homoheresy’ among the U.S. Jesuits.


28 posted on 03/16/2013 1:29:22 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: neverbluffer

“As a Catholic, we believe that all Christian based religions will allow for eternal life
as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your savior”


As a Christian, I charge that any religion that preaches a different Gospel than Jesus Christ is an enemy of the Gospel. I cannot join together with other “churches” that do this.

“There has been a Pope in place ever since Peter, one after another all the way up until the one just elected. And it all started with Peter as the first Pope after Jesus started the Church with Peter.”


The Rock upon which the church is built is the confession of Jesus Christ. All Christians are “stones,” and priests and saints of the true church, which is Christ’s body, with Christ as the chief cornerstone.

1Pe 2:5-6 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Peter never, in any of his epistles, calls himself the Rock upon which the church is built, or refers to himself as anything more than an Apostle of Jesus Christ, just as Paul and the others called themselves. In fact, Paul even rebuked Peter when he was in error. Not as an inferior having respect for a Pope, but as an equal.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

This doctrine of Papal primacy, universal Bishop as the “head” of the church, is one that came later.

Ignatius, writing sometime before his death between 97 and 115AD, listed the highest tier of the church as the Bishop. He never mentions any higher tiers.

“Pope” Gregory the first, more than 400 years later, who asserted Peter was the First of the Apostles, nevertheless denied the title of the Universal Bishop (though the one who came right after him petitioned the Emperor that he should take the title), and asserted that the See of Peter was made up of three locations.

“But I confidently say, that whosoever calls himself universal bishop, or desires to be called so, in his pride is the forerunner of antichrist, because in his pride he prefers himself to the rest. And he is conducted to error with a similar pride; for as that wicked one wishes to appear a God above all men, so whosoever he is who alone desires to be called a bishop, extols himself above all other bishops.” — To Mauritius Augustus.

St. Peter’s Primacy descended to three Bishopricks, Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome.

“Whereas there were many apostles, yet for the principality itself, one only see of the apostles prevailed, in authority, which is of one, but in three places. For he elevated the see in which he condescended to rest, and to finish his present life. He decorated the see, to which he sent his disciple the evangelist, and he established the see, in which, although he intended to leave it, he sat for seven years. Since there fore the see is of one and is one, over which three bishops preside by divine authority, whatsoever good I hear of you, I ascribe to myself. And if you hear any good of me, number it among your merits, be- cause we are all one in him who says, that all should be one, as thou, O Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may be one in us. — In the Eulogy’ to the Bishop of Alexandria

Theodoret references the same belief when he places the “throne of Peter” under the Bishop of Antioch:

“Dioscorus, however, refuses to abide by these decisions; he is turning the See of the blessed Mark upside down; and these things he does though he perfectly well knows that the Antiochene (of Antioch) metropolis possesses the throne of the great Peter, who was teacher of the blessed Mark, and first and coryphæus (head of the choir) of the chorus of the apostles.” Theodoret - Letter LXXXVI - To Flavianus, Bishop of Constantinople.

Ultimately, what authority does a church have when it has fallen so far from the word of God?


29 posted on 03/16/2013 1:30:47 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: neverbluffer

“I respect the fact that you are Christian and love your Church...”


I disrespect the fact that you say I love my Church, as if a denomination was all that I was defending.

“I can read a passage in the Bible and interpret it anyway that fits my argument.”


You can try your luck, but only the words of the scripture can prevail.


30 posted on 03/16/2013 1:33:06 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

There is too much of PC going on. A must-read is from one of the great English essayists, Hillaire Belloc: “The Heretics.” This book is brilliantly written and argued. Unfortunately, we have a number of “low-intellect” Christians who go around simply quoting snatches from the Bible and religious treatises taken out of scriptural context, history, tradition, revelation, and liturgy.


31 posted on 03/16/2013 1:33:44 PM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

But you dont seem to think that the scripture passage about Christ provding Peter the “Keys to the Kingdom” which essentially established Peter as the first Pope as valid?

Because it doesnt fit your narrative!!!!


32 posted on 03/16/2013 1:49:27 PM PDT by neverbluffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: neverbluffer

Because it doesnt fit your narrative!!!!”


You seem to think that the scripture does not say that all the Apostles received it. It just doesn’t fit your narrative. Neither does the fact that Peter never hoards it over any of the others, or that Christians themselves are ‘stones’ making up the church, and that Christ is the chief cornerstone, not Peter, who, interestingly enough, is the one pointing out all these things.

You probably even think the Apostles had the right to forgive sins!

I like Jerome’s exposition of the matter:

Against the judicial Power of the Priests in forgiving Sins.

“The bishops and priests not understanding that passage, assume to themselves somewhat of the arrogance of the Pharisees, so far as to imagine that they may condemn the innocent or absolve the guilty, whereas with God, it is not the sentence of the priests, but the life* of the guilty that is looked into. We read in Leviticus concerning the lepers, where they were commanded to show themselves to the priests, in order that if they had a leprosy, they might be made unclean by the priests : not that the priests made them lepers and unclean, but be cause they knew who were lepers and who were not, and could dis cover who were clean and who were unclean. In the same manner therefore as the priest there made a man clean or unclean, so here the bishop or priest either binds or loosens, not those who are innocent or guilty, but officially, when he has heard the nature of their sins, he knows who is to be bound and who is to be loosened.” — On the 16th chap, of Mat. vol. 6.


33 posted on 03/16/2013 1:56:35 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

My interlocutor is a person well versed in the Lutheran theology. He is also close to the hierarchy of the Lutheran Church, and frequently publishes articles on religious matters. A well respected conservative man. Whether his stetement to me represents the view (on papacy) of his church, I don’t know.

Who are you? Jim Bakker, the Crouch couple, the drunken preacher on the downtown corner, Marjo, or a follower of one of those? Because your readings of the Holy Scripture count as much as the readings of any of those listed. That is by the very definition of your Church protesting against Rome. Rome will outlast us all. If you define yourself but what you are against, then you ain’t much.


34 posted on 03/16/2013 2:05:19 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Just remember that you would not even have a Bible to quote from if it were not for the Catholic Church, Monks, and Friars saving the scripture from destruction during the medieval times.

Also, the reason I asked you what time it was where you are located because the very clock and calendat you use was developed as the Gregorian Calendar, yes...Pope Gregory.

The very Corporate Structure of Companies is derived from the Catholic structure, (Pope=President, Cardinals= Board of Directors, Bishops= Vice Presidents, etc. The very Senate and Congress representative structure we have in our country is derived from the Holy Roman Senate structure...

You cannot escape all the things Catholicism brought to the modern world and its influence.

I dont recall in history, written or recorded anywhere, a reference to a Baptist Church except maybe after the 17th Century.

It all came from Catholicism!!!


35 posted on 03/16/2013 2:08:47 PM PDT by neverbluffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Revolting cat!

“My interlocutor is a person well versed in the Lutheran theology.”


I’ve read Luther. I could tell you what Luther says on the matter, but it would make everyone angry.

“Who are you?”


A Christian, whose head is Christ, not the Bishop of Rome.


36 posted on 03/16/2013 2:11:27 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: neverbluffer

“Just remember that you would not even have a Bible to quote from if it were not for the Catholic Church, Monks, and Friars saving the scripture from destruction during the medieval times.”


That’s like saying if not for the Pharisees, who demanded that Christ be killed, we wouldn’t have the Bible. It is God who preserves His word.

“Also, the reason I asked you what time it was where you are located because the very clock and calendat you use was developed as the Gregorian Calendar, yes...Pope Gregory.”


Hey! That’s great! I quoted Pope Gregory denying the primacy of the Bishop of Rome.

“You cannot escape all the things Catholicism brought to the modern world and its influence.”


Christ’s Kingdom is NOT of this world.


37 posted on 03/16/2013 2:14:23 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: RugerMini14
Well, golly, if a Lutheran told you so then it must be true.

You got that right. I'm glad you agree. May I quote you?

38 posted on 03/16/2013 2:17:51 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Coldwater Creek

Them snakes bitin’ today, padner? Take out the banjoes!


39 posted on 03/16/2013 2:37:17 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Revolting cat!; Coldwater Creek

“Them snakes bitin’ today, padner? Take out the banjoes!”


Yes, the snakes are biting today, but their arguments are quite lame, and far beneath the scripture.


40 posted on 03/16/2013 2:43:35 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Yes, the snakes are biting today, but their arguments are quite lame, and far beneath the scripture.

All one needs to do is set their eyes upon the One who is high and lifted up, and the bites have no effect.

41 posted on 03/16/2013 3:13:15 PM PDT by BlueDragon (If you want vision open your eyes and see you can carry the light with you wherever you go)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: BlueDragon

Amen!


42 posted on 03/16/2013 3:13:55 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: neverbluffer; Greetings_Puny_Humans
That does not change the fact that there has been a “physical” breathing Pope ever since Peter for thousands of years” and Peter was the first Pope.

That is *not* a fact. That is a myth. Facts are proven on evidence.

43 posted on 03/16/2013 3:33:47 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: roamer_1

Indeed, but they wouldn’t know evidence if it slapped them in the face.


44 posted on 03/16/2013 3:58:25 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Indeed, but they wouldn’t know evidence if it slapped them in the face.

As is the inevitability when one allows traditions of men to subvert the reliability of the evidence.

45 posted on 03/16/2013 5:33:02 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Revolting cat!; wideawake
A Lutheran told me yesterday: “The Pope is the spiritual leader of all Christians.” It appears that only American snake handlers disagree.

That was a completely uncalled-for ethno-cultural slur worthy of the most radical homosexual. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Do you really think you are winning friends with such rhetoric? Perhaps from the Left, but not from the American Heartland.

46 posted on 03/16/2013 6:55:55 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

Just BELIEVE!


47 posted on 03/17/2013 4:03:25 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Revolting cat!

That Lutheran has it correct, remember, the Pope is the most visible CHRISTIAN.


48 posted on 03/17/2013 4:04:57 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Steelfish
Trying to comment on specific excerpts made by one Cardinal of the Church without reference to the whole of his thesis is problematical.

That's why I provided the link to the whole of his thesis. It's only problematical if you refuse to click on it.

49 posted on 03/17/2013 9:13:04 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

Speaking of links, it might make for a more informative read from BXVI’s Iesus Dominus, formerly Cardinal Ratzinger, who has been described as a theological Einstein.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html


50 posted on 03/17/2013 9:54:06 AM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson