Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Evangelist Luis Palau: New Pope Francis a Friend of Evangelicals
Christian Post ^ | 03/16/2013 | Anugrah Kumar

Posted on 03/16/2013 11:18:09 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-59 next last

1 posted on 03/16/2013 11:18:10 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Luis Palau’s a good guy.


2 posted on 03/16/2013 11:36:01 AM PDT by PapaNew
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

“New Pope Francis a Friend of Evangelicals”

So he has renounced the anathemas of Trent and embraced the true gospel? < /sarc>


3 posted on 03/16/2013 11:37:10 AM PDT by Gil4 (Progressives - Trying to repeal the Law of Supply and Demand since 1848)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gil4

RE: So he has renounced the anathemas of Trent

VATICAN II seems to have IN EFFECT done that without directly saying so.

Vatican II claims:

“The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ” (“Dogmatic Constitution...,” 1964, 2.15).


4 posted on 03/16/2013 11:46:39 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
This is very good. Waiting for mortar shells to explode on this thread from frustrated fortressed tridentine fratres in

3...

2...

1

5 posted on 03/16/2013 12:15:03 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Pax Vobiuscum!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
For some reason that old song "Another One Bites the Dust" comes to mind........

Sigh........,,, another once good Biblical teacher and preacher embraces ecumenicalism.

6 posted on 03/16/2013 12:31:24 PM PDT by ducttape45
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ducttape45
There are worst problems than some folks praying in buildings they own ~ for instance, there are real commies and real nazis in Argentina. That's the case elsewhere as well.

First things first then we can excommunicate and toss more anamathemas ~ actually, my church does neither, but that's just us.

7 posted on 03/16/2013 12:42:15 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Evangelical Catholicism? George Weigel has written about it.


8 posted on 03/16/2013 12:43:37 PM PDT by SMCC1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gil4

The most incidious form of deception is error mixed with truth and the Jesuits are masters of mixing error with truth and changing the meaning of words . He speaks like a dragon.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


9 posted on 03/16/2013 12:52:09 PM PDT by Lera (Proverbs 29:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o

Is “friend of Evangelicals” code for something? I ask because Pope Benedict surely showed every sign of good will toward non Catholic Christians. If something has changed, I think we should be told.


10 posted on 03/16/2013 12:58:47 PM PDT by Romulus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Romulus
As far as I can see, Romulus, "friend of Evangelicals" is a good thing. Some of our dear brothers and sisters in the Faith have tagged it--- in other threads --- as a code for "weak-kneed ecumaniac"; but of such hotheaded talk, the less said, the better.
11 posted on 03/16/2013 1:06:13 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Pax Vobiuscum!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Here’s my thoughts on the kneeling. It’s not to honor the man but the Apostolic succession.


12 posted on 03/16/2013 2:14:13 PM PDT by Mercat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

I like Berg...—sorry, Francis—a lot, and I’m a non-denominational Christian. Reading the list of papabili, he was my fave.

Oh boy, are the Catholics going to shudder at all of the protestant love he’s getting? ;) “If they like him how good can he be?”


13 posted on 03/16/2013 2:30:44 PM PDT by LifeComesFirst (http://rw-rebirth.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PapaNew

I agree. A previous church I was on staff for supported Luis and I met him on a number of occasions. Solid man.


14 posted on 03/16/2013 3:30:18 PM PDT by polkajello
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Vatican II might have softened the language somewhat, but it reaffirmed the doctrines. The language was bad; the doctrine is worse.


15 posted on 03/16/2013 5:36:19 PM PDT by Gil4 (Progressives - Trying to repeal the Law of Supply and Demand since 1848)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Gil4

Here’s what VATICAN I SAID:

Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the Lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema (“First Dogmatic...,” 1870, 2.5, parenthetical item in original).

Here’s what VATICAN II says:

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter.

For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ (“Dogmatic Constitution...,” 1964, 2.15)

One council says those who don’t recognize the Roman Pontiff as the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy is ANATHEMA, while the later council says They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ even when they DON’T acknowledge the Roman Pontiff.

I don’t call the above mere softening of words. I call it NOT AFFIRMING the previous words.

You cannot reconcile the word ANATHEMA and the words United with Christ. The two are dramatically opposite each other.


16 posted on 03/16/2013 6:49:25 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
"Anathema" has a specific technical meaning, or rather it did in 1870. It's a formal, liturgical excommunication. (The phrase "bell, book, and candle" refers to the ceremony of anathema.)

The penalty of "anathema" no longer exists in canon law post 1983, so the penalty clauses of those anathemas are legally void.

Non-Catholics aren't subject to Catholic church discipline, so the penalty of "anathema" never applied in any case.

17 posted on 03/16/2013 7:45:22 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Campion

Indeed. Trent was addressing people who had been baptized in the Catholic Church. They were formal heretics. The majority of evangelicals are not. Furthermore, even Trent was concerned about the leaders of the Reformation rather than their followers, many of whom were compelled by the laws of their states to adjure their faith. Different time, different place.


18 posted on 03/16/2013 10:11:47 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Luis Palau is correct, the new Pope DOES live out the calling of God and the Holy Bible.


19 posted on 03/17/2013 4:09:51 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS; Campion

From the Dictionary:

ANATHEMA:

Somebody or something formally denounced: somebody or something cursed, denounced, or excommunicated by a religious authority

So Martin Luther and John Calvin are still under Roman Catholic condemnation but not their followers?

You can believe what Luther and Calvin believed but not be anathema?


20 posted on 03/17/2013 6:15:23 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

As I explained, “anathema” has a specific technical meaning in canon law. The secular dictionary definition isn’t going to give you that. Because it is a penalty under church law, like all such penalties, it doesn’t apply to non- Catholics. That doesn’t change the fact that some of what the reformers taught is heretical. But you can’t argue the fate of non-Catholics in Catholic teaching based on a penalty clause which is no longer in force, and never applied to them in the first place.


21 posted on 03/17/2013 8:58:37 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

It was their doctrines that were denounced. But both men were baptized Catholics and Luther an ordained priest. As for their followers, that would be those who openly professed such doctrines. In Germany and elsewhere, the common people usuallu had no choice as they were required to follow the dictates of their local authorities. This would be less true of the “sects,” who were persecuted by both Catholics and Lutherans. Freedom of religion —as a concept— was anathema even to the sectarians. They did not believe any man had the right to err about the true doctrine of Christ.


22 posted on 03/17/2013 2:11:39 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Campion

RE: That doesn’t change the fact that some of what the reformers taught is heretical.

so, not recognizing the Pope as the Supreme Pontiff of the Church is heretical...

As for heresy, what else is heresy that the reformers taught? Can you cite one example?

I cited one of them already — not recognizing the Pope as the Primate of the church.

RE: But you can’t argue the fate of non-Catholics in Catholic teaching based on a penalty clause which is no longer in force, and never applied to them in the first place.

I find this to be quite strange and hard to conceive. Why would anathema merely apply to Luther or Calvin and not to his followers who believe the same “heretical” ( your words ) doctrine they do? These are people who call themselves “Christian” as well.

For instance, there are thousands upon thousand of people in the world who were baptized in the Roman Catholic Church as infants who after growing up, decided, upon reflection and discussions with non-Catholic Christians, that they are convinced that Martin Luther and John Calvin are right.

Surely, these thousands of non-Catholics are anathema according to Vatican I. That is, if the technical meaning is having been Catholic, you now embrace doctrine that the Roman Catholic Church (as per Vatican I ) calls anathema.

Yet, Vatican II calls them separated brothers.

The only convincing explanation for me is Vatican II superceded Vatican I.


23 posted on 03/17/2013 5:11:47 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

RE: As for their followers, that would be those who openly professed such doctrines.

There are MILLIONS of Luther and Calvin followers now who OPENLY profess their doctrines.

Luis Palau being one of them ( ask him for instance if he believes in Sola Scriptura, I am 100% certain he would say YES. Why do I say that? I heard him say so before ).

Ask Palau directly if he believes that Pope Francis should be THE ( not ‘a’ ) representative of Christ on earth. If he were honest to his Evangelical Heritage, he would say Francis is ‘a’ representative, but not ‘the’ representative of Christ.

Vatican I condemns that belief, but Vatican II does not.

To be consistent with your statement ‘As for their followers, that would be those who openly professed such doctrines.’, men like Palau would be under Vatican I anathema ( bit not Vatican II ).


24 posted on 03/17/2013 5:27:23 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Not really. Not many even know what the teachings of Luther and Calvin were. And the consequence of their actions was a Christianity divided literally into warring camps, the devastation of Europe, and the discrediting of Christianity in such a way as to open the door to the new paganism that threatens us now.


25 posted on 03/17/2013 5:54:16 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

RE: Not many even know what the teachings of Luther and Calvin were.

I beg to disagree with you here.

Even for the sake of argument, we were to agree that there are those who don’t know what the teachings of Luther and Calvin were, there are MANY who do.

The Pastors, the leaders, men like Luis Palau for instance.

The question still remains — are they under the condemnation of Vatican I? or are they considered “united with Christ” as per Vatican II?


26 posted on 03/17/2013 7:09:37 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
First of all the specific doctrines of the Protestant Reformers condemned at Trent are still regarded as errors. Luther’s doctrines less so than Calvin’s. Calvin’s less than Zwingli’s and the Anabaptists more than any of the major reformers. But consider how negative the Reformers doctrines were: they rejected the authority of the pope and the council and to a lesser degree that of the Church Fathers. They rejected the sacraments as Catholics --and the Orthodox --understood them. Positively, they were Augustinians who rejected Scholasticism. They were iconoclasts. Now of course, there were differences. Luther believed in the Real Presence; Calvin did also, although in a very attenuated way, but his colleagues in Geneva and later followers tended to the same views as Zwingli.

None believed in a special priesthood, bit instead, they believed in a ministerial class composed of men knowledgeable in the Bible. They rejected Latin as a liturgical language, and used the Vernacular, but trusted their ministers to know the Scriptural language , Greek and Hebrew. Hence the authority of the vernacular Bibles. Today, of course, the Vernacular Bible is accepted as authentic even by those who read not a word of the original languages. No longer is the priest the bridge between God and believer, but the translator and interpreter.

27 posted on 03/17/2013 8:02:13 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

OK, given all of the above, why then are non-catholic Christians considered “united with Christ” by Vatican II?

If the purpose of the Roman catholic church is to protect against error, then anathema of Vatican I should apply to every Lutheran, Presbyterian and yes, Protestants and Evangelicals out there ( Luis Palau included since he was born Roman Catholic ).

But that is not what is indicated in Vatican II.


28 posted on 03/17/2013 8:08:12 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

United by what we share in common. With the Orthodox churches we theologically have the most in common; then such bodies as the Anglo-Catholics and Lutherans; then the Reformed churches. Let us say the confessional churches, which might include the Methodists. Then such bodies as the members of the Southern Baptist Convention, which might not recite the Apostle’s Creed, but accepts most of its tenants. Then Pentacostals of every stripe. Then liberal Protestant bodies of every denomination. With evangelicals of ever kind there is a great overlap, but most in the notion that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God., which faith is expressed in the Nicene Creed in the term “consubtantial,” which is no more than a one-word, philosophical expression of that dogma.


29 posted on 03/17/2013 9:30:38 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

RE: RE: Then such bodies as the members of the Southern Baptist Convention, which might not recite the Apostle’s Creed, but accepts most of its tenants.

I have news for you. Some Southern Baptist churches DO recite the Apostle’s Creed. And even when in their worship services, some don’t, they ACCEPT ALL OF IT. I don’t understand where the use of the words “most of it” comes from.

By the word “most”, c an you clarify which one of the tenets of the Apostle’s Creed ( and even the Nicene Creed ) they do not accept?

I should know, I’ve been to many of their worship services and spoken to many of their pastors.

I’ve even had the chance to speak to one of their ( now deceased ) leaders, Rev. Adrian Rogers.

There is only one tenet that they might disagree with with the Roman Catholic Church — the word “catholic”.

Roman Catholics understand it as THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH with the Pope at the head.

The non-Catholics understand it to mean the universal church (the body of Christ) that will exist from the time it was founded until Jesus returns. Members of this church are all who have by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ, believed in Him and accepted Him as Lord and Savior REGARDLESS of whether they are members of the Roman Catholic church or not.

But going back to the original discussion...

Vatican I states thusly:

Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the Lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.

You are saying that Roman Catholics can be united with those who are anathema by virtue of what you share in common?

I find this to be most strange. How can you be united and at the same time anathema?

The heretic Arius shared many tenets of the Christian faith with the Orthodox Christians at that time, EXCEPT for his denial of the deity of Christ. He was ANATHEMA and condemned as a heretic. There was no talk of being united by what was shared in common.


30 posted on 03/18/2013 6:40:14 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
It is Catholic doctrine that the Church is the baptized. What Trent condemns is essentially novelties in doctrine which divide the Church. That is what heresies are. Now as far as the Apostle Creed is concerned, the problem is how much authority is placed in the creed, and of course in the interpretation of its articles. The Lutherans, the Calvinists, and the Baptists all claim to be the Catholic Church, that the Church of Rome apostatized and therefore they do not owe it obedience. The Council of Trent said, no, YOU who say this are the apostates. Religious freedom in the modern sense, which has it that NO ONE has to the right to say how a true Christian is to behave, was a doctrine held by no one. Still is’t, by “orthodox” Christians of every persuasion. It amounts to nothing more than polytheism in a new guise. Doesn’t bother me to hear someone called my faith a “cult.” At least they have definite ideas and believe in the law of non-contradiction.
31 posted on 03/18/2013 1:07:29 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

RE: It is Catholic doctrine that the Church is the baptized.

So, why are those who are not baptized in the Roman Catholic Church considered “united with Christ” by Vatican II?

RE: What Trent condemns is essentially novelties in doctrine which divide the Church.

OK, not recognizing the Pope as Primate is a novelty according to Trent right? Then why are those who believe in this “novelty” now considered “United with Christ” by Vatican II?

Makes no sense.

RE: The Lutherans, the Calvinists, and the Baptists all claim to be the Catholic Church,

Correction, the The Lutherans, the Calvinists, and the Baptists all claim to be MEMBERS of the Catholic ( as in Universal ) church. They recognize each other as members as well and include ALL who by grace through faith in Christ ( regardless of which denomination they belong to ) as members of the catholic church.

The question they will ask of ANY PERSON ( regardless of denomination ) is this -— DO YOU CONFESS JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOR ? If the answer is “yes”, then they are recongized to be part of the catholic church.

If you don’t believe me, ask any pastor of any of these denominations.

RE: The Council of Trent said, no, YOU who say this are the apostates

Which of course begs the question -— IN WHAT SENSE ARE THEY UNITED WITH CHRIST according to Vatican II?

An apostate cannot be united with Christ can he?

So, You can’t have both Vatican II and Trent or Vatican I simultaneously be correct on this issue. So, which one prevails?


32 posted on 03/18/2013 1:15:03 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
A council deals with specifics. Trent was dealing with the claims of the Reformers that they taught the true Gospel. That the Church of Rome did not. Trent rejected their claims. That Luther’s doctrines, or principles, were novelties unknown to Christians until “now.” The Reformers, on their own authority, on their own interpretation of Scripture, claimed to teach who ought to have been taught all along, citing Scripture as their guide. Both sides accepted that public revelation had closed with the deaths of the Apostles, but the Reformers would accept nothing except what was contained in the writingsof the Apostles. The Council disputed this, on the grounds that those scriptures had authorized the Church to say what was Gospel and what not. In the end, of course, the decision is in the hands of God. At the time, however, both sides were willing to use force against the other. Each side declared the another anathema. Because religion was so much part of the established order of society that meant, intimately, war. Vatican II basically said, no, war is not appropriate; persuasion only, which of course is yet a kind of force. Charity must prevail. Neither side ought to resort to force to compel unity. But what was false is still false. But Christians should approach their differences as estranged brothers ought to, honestly and with charity. In a way, like parties in a national parliament. Divided, often deeply divided, but countrymen still. Civil war, above all, to be avoided.
33 posted on 03/18/2013 7:48:42 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

RE: Trent was dealing with the claims of the Reformers that they taught the true Gospel. That the Church of Rome did not. Trent rejected their claims.

Sure, but remember this, WE HAVE SPIRITUAL DESCENDANTS OF THE REFORMERS EXISTING TODAY, BY THE MILLIONS I MIGHT ADD.

I think the question has to be asked — if Trent considers these people anathema, why does Vatican II consider those who share their beliefs “United with Christ”?

RE: Vatican II basically said, no, war is not appropriate; persuasion only, which of course is yet a kind of force. Charity must prevail. Neither side ought to resort to force to compel unity. But what was false is still false.

We are NOT talking about war here. we are talking THEOLOGICAL differences. So, kindly dispose of that idea.

These are theological differences that affect SPIRITUAL CONCERNS and that is where we should focus the discussion on.

It is clear that Vatican I and Trent still ex-communicates
the reformers and their followers. It is NOT CLEAR if Vatican II does. By using the words they are “united with Christ”, it looks like Vatican II is softening the words of the previous councils.

So your explanation does not solve the problem. If as you say, false is still false, and not accepting the Pope’s primacy is anathema, you don’t use the words — “United with Christ” to refer to those people who hold to what is false.

You might call them friends, but you don’t call them “united with Christ”.

To give you an example — I can be a friend of a self-professed supporter of abortion and gay marriage and even have a beer with him or even play ball with him, but I would not consider him “united with Christ”. He is MOST DEFINITELY NOT “united with Chris”t in any sense of the word by his support of murder of children and the destruction of marriage.

So, If Logic is to prevail, and the force of Trent and Vatican I is to be taken seriously, the millions of people who hold to the same beliefs as Luther or Calvin should NOT be “united with Christ” based on their beliefs. They should still be ex-communicated.

You cannot simultaneously hold to beliefs that are anathema and still be considered “united with Christ” ( or does Vatican II now says that you can?).

Whatever it is, I don’t see how the words of Vatican II and Vatican I can be reconciled.


34 posted on 03/19/2013 7:09:42 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
I am talking about history, about human beings acting in historyTrent took place within history and even as its was adjourning war was breaking in France between the Catholics and Huguenots, Elizabeth’s government was establishing its control over the Catholics in England, a revolution was breaking out in the Netherlands against Spanish rule no little by religious differences. All of this the consequence of the Reformer split with Rome. You can talk about spiritual differences, but that was not the reality of the Reformation. It was made possible by political leaders and because they chose sides in this schism created by the Reformation, war—bloody war— ensued. All of this could have been avoided if charity had prevailed. It did not. Te true Christians on each side were affected. United in Christ , they may have been, but not in the Church.
35 posted on 03/19/2013 10:51:33 AM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

RE: I am talking about history, about human beings acting in historyTrent took place within history and even as its was adjourning war was breaking in France between the Catholics and Huguenots

And I am also referring to history. Let’s ignore the war for the meantime. The question remains -— are the anathemas of Trent and Vatican I only for those whose citizens are at war? Or are they about SPIRITUAL differences?

But let’s set aside France and the Huguenots for the moment... here’s a direct question for you...

Based on YOUR UNDERSTANDING...is a professed Christian who does not acknowledge the Pope as Primate of the Christian church TODAY still under the Vatican I anathema or not?

A simple yes or no will suffice.


36 posted on 03/19/2013 5:27:08 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

A Catholic, yes. but anyone else is not under the pope’s jurisdiction. Of course, any assertion to the contrary is invalid on the face of it, but the pope has no secular power to compel obedience. Even his power to compel Catholics is limited.


37 posted on 03/19/2013 11:05:30 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

RE: A Catholic, yes.

What about those who were baptized catholic from infancy and then grew up to become reformed and evangelical ( see for instance Evangelist Luis Palau). Are they under the Vatican I anathema?

RE: pope has no secular power to compel obedience.

Again, let’s dispel with secular power, wars, troops, etc. Those are relics of ancient medieval times.

Does the Pope have real SPIRITUAL power to anathematize someone who believes in Jesus Christ but does not recognize that he is the Primate of the Christian church?


38 posted on 03/20/2013 6:20:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

You are using a term as it it meant throwing thunderbolts from on high. The Council of Trent did what it did but it was in the midst of a civil war in the Church, against heretics who had the power to do great harm. Vatican I did what it did because the papacy was under assault from the secular powers of Europe and those even in the Church who wishes to destroy its power and influence. The threat to Church today does not come from the likes of Palau but from the secularists who are enemies of Christ, and the modernists within the Church.


39 posted on 03/20/2013 8:48:05 AM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

Let me for clarification’s sake summarize what I’ve learned from you so far ( feel free to tell me what I’ve missed ):

1) I take it from your response that the answer is NO. Luis Palau ( despite his not recognizing the Pope as primate of the church ) is NOT under the Trent/Vatican I anathema. The ‘anyone’ in their , ‘if anyone says’ clause refer to specific people in HISTORY PAST, not to non-catholic Christians today.

2) The anathema of Vatican I and Trent refers only to those who threaten to make war on the Vatican and NOT to those Reformers and other non-catholic Christians who do not recognize the Pope’s authority over them but are not at war ( militarily ) with the Vatican.

3) Vatican II therefore recognizes the likes of Luis Palau and even the spiritual descendants of the reformers as “united in Christ” together with devout Roman Catholics.


40 posted on 03/20/2013 9:31:20 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

I am saying that the pronouncement of the Council were in response to the teachings of the Reformers and a condemnation of them. Trent was a response to an existential threat. It took Rome more than a decade to wake up to what was going on, that The Empire was in schism. Rome had been distracted by their quarrel with the Emperor which led to the sack of Rome by his troops, with the Turkish threat, with the demands of Henry VIII and Francis etc. Olkiticsa in short. Then there started a move to negotiate with the Lutheran princes, and moves for new council. When it finally happened, it was without the Reformers, that is to say, the Lutherans etc. The Catholics reformers set the agenda, so Trent adopted the reform agenda of the Catholic reformers. Less a “counter-Reformation,”than an :alternative-reformation. The rivalry with today’s evangelicals, to the extent that they do not use the rhetoric of the Protestant Reformers, is of a different kind.


41 posted on 03/20/2013 3:17:55 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Evangelist Luis Palau: New Pope Francis a Friend of Evangelicals
A Pope for All Christians
Consolation for Boston Catholics? (Pope immediately bans Cardinal Law from St. Mary Major)
Quotes from Cardinal Bergoglio, now Pope Francis, on 7 Moral Issues
Pope to journalists: 'I love you so much and I thank you for everything'
Letter #48: Old Age (Papal Apartments opened, Pope visits local hospital)
Jesuit doorman surprised by Pope's phone call
Pope Francis on mass media and name
Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople to Attend Papal Installation Mass
Pope Francis in Motion
Who is Pope Francis? A compilation from many news reports.
"Anyone who does not pray to the Lord prays to the devil." Homily of the Holy Father Pope Francis
Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi will represent the United States at Pope Francis’ Inaugural Mass
Beijing Cautions New Pope on Meddling in China
For the First Time Since the Great Schism, Ecumenical Patriarch to Attend Pope's Inaugural Mass
Ann Barnhardt on Pope Francis
New Pope snubs Cardinal Law
Pope Francis seen as humble man who can unite, rebuild Church

Pope Francis – the real deal – has Audience with Cardinals
Pope Francis—The Journey Begins
Report: Pope Francis bans disgraced Cardinal Law from his church
Pope tells cardinals: discover new ways to evangelize
Does this pope sound like a liberal to YOU?
Pope Francis could renew Catholicism in Americas, says Knights' chief
Letter #47: To Mary (Pope Francis prays at (tomb of Pope St. Pius V) [Catholic Caucus]
Pope To cardinals: Don't Give In To Devil's "Bitterness" And "Pessimism"
Pope Pays His Hotel Bill
Newly elected Pope knows Ukrainian Catholic Church, its Liturgy & Spirituality (Ecumenical)
'Go and Repair My House'
Why Did Pope Francis Go to St Mary Major?
Argentine priest kidnapped in Dirty War reconciled w/ Pope Francis (Don't blame Pope for Pinochet)
Weigel: "Bergoglio is an Old-School Jesuit, Formed by Classic Ignatian Spirituality..."
Vatican Responds to Accusations About Cardinal Bergoglio and the "Dirty War"
Pope Francis Knows What Must Be Done
Pope Francis tied up in Argentina's 'dirty war' debate
Pope Francis and the Traditional Liturgy
Links of Pope Francis to military dictatorship
Cardinal Bergoglio wrote to Fr. Gruner about Fatima [Catholic Caucus]

Why Pope Francis May Be a Catholic Nightmare [barf alert]
Pope Francis I: It’s All In the Name
Vatican official: Gay marriage a “revolutionary project” for “complete destruction of the family”
Pope Francis, and Blessed Aloysius and Blessed Agnellus: how the saints chose Bergoglio for pope
The Future Pope Francis: Additional Interviews and Writings
Pope Francis – What’s in a Name?
Pope Francis Warns Church Could Become 'Compassionate NGO'
Jesuits Surprised that First of Their Brethren is Elected Pope
World Jewish Congress head praises Pope Francis (Jewish-Catholic ties "best in 2,000 years")
How Summorum Pontificum was blocked and trampled on in Buenos Aires
Slaves of the Immac. Heart of Mary Profess Our Filial Submission to Pope Francis (Catholic Caucus)
Gay Advocacy Groups Rush to Demonize Pope Francis
Traditionalists and Pope Francis: Can We Take a Deep Breath and Please Calm Down?
What I would have said at the Consistory: An interview with Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio
Pope Francis Offers His Second Blessing to Pregnant Mom, Unborn Baby
Cdl. Bergoglio's Lenten Letter, 2013
UPDATE: Rorate Caeli’s diatribe against Pope Francis [Catholic Caucus]
Pope Francis: A Disappointment for Catholics Who Don't Like Being Catholic
Updates on Pope Francis’ first day as Pope – Great moments! (truly humble man)
New Pope Slips Out Of Vatican For morning Prayer Visit

Our First American Pope
Pope Francis I clear on denying Communion to those who facilitate in abortion
Jorge Mario Bergoglio, Profession: Servant of the Servants of God
EDITORIAL:Pope Francis I bridges conservative and progressive currents
New Pope Francis called homosexual ‘marriage’ a ‘machination of the Father of Lies’
Pope Francis Is First Catholic Pontiff From The Americas; He Is Known As A Humble Intellectual
New Pope lived simple life in Argentina
"Lowly, And Yet Chosen," Enter Pope Francis (some phenomenal firsts with this election)
10 Facts about Pope Francis
Vatican Web Site Updated
Full Text of Pope Francis’ Opening Address to Catholic Faithful
9 things you should know about Pope Francis
Pope Francis I promises to be strong pro-life world leader
New Pope celebrated Hanukkah as well as Christmas
New Pope- enemy of Catholic tradition
As Cardinal, Pope Francis condemned abortion even in rape cases
Profile: New pope, Jesuit Bergoglio, was runner-up in 2005 conclave
Jorge Mario Bergoglio elected pope, takes Francis as name
Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio: a Profile
HABEMUS PAPAM!!! (Live Thread)

42 posted on 03/21/2013 7:29:03 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

RE: I am saying that the pronouncement of the Council were in response to the teachings of the Reformers and a condemnation of them.

I don’t think you answered my question. If Trent’s pronouncement were a condemnation of the Reformer’s teachings (you just said it above), then surely the same condemnation applies to their present followers who teach similar things. But then, Vatican II calls them “United with Christ”, so which is it?

So, which is being condemned and why the condemnation? Is it because of the historical situation at that time which no longer exists today, or is it because of the TEACHINGS THEMSELVES?

My reading of Trent and Vatican I tells me that it is the TEACHINGS that are condemned. Which is, EVEN IF there is no existential threat like an Empire in schism today, the condemnation of the TEACHING still remains.

But you seem to be saying no... ( or maybe I read you wrongly).

RE: The rivalry with today’s evangelicals, to the extent that they do not use the rhetoric of the Protestant Reformers, is of a different kind.

OK, let’s say that today’s reformers do not use the heated rhetoric of the 16th century, are their beliefs ( e.g. Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, non-recognition of the Pope as Primate ) still under Trent’s condemnation or not? And note I focus on the word — BELIEF, not the rhetoric of the 16th century, or the existential threat to the Empire.

RE: The rivalry with today’s evangelicals, to the extent that they do not use the rhetoric of the Protestant Reformers, is of a different kind <-— Note the last two words.

What is this “different kind” you are referring to? Could you please clarify? How is the belief of Reformed Christians today any different from the beliefs of the Protestant Reformers?


43 posted on 03/21/2013 9:39:35 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

Also, why don’t you clarify each of the points I raised in Post #40 above.

All you’ve done in response is to re-iterate what you said before, which does NOTHING to clarify the seeming contradiction between Vatican I and II.


44 posted on 03/21/2013 9:41:10 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

We must of course face the reality of the differences in doctrine. Luther and Calvin et al. developed theologies that were different from those of the Church and were contradicted—and condemned—m by the Council of Trent. But no evangelical today does not come to these doctrines the same way that the Reformers did. The Luther of 1521 was not yet a Lutheran. So long as he was alive, he kept developing his own thought and it did not become unchangeable until he died. It is said that on his deathbed, he affirmed his teachings. But as soon as he was dead, they were placed in the hands of other man. Ditto the works of Calvin, and by the end of the century we have Calvinism and we have Lutheranism, which are based on their teachings but not exactly the same. Today, Evangelicals may honor to their principles, but they are no more Lutherans or Calvinists than Luther and Calvin were Augustinians. They are embedded in a tradition, and what separates Catholics and Evangelicals is that each follows a tradition, and so particular principles matter less than the tradition as a whole. Of course the reform or evangelical tradition is far more diverse than the Catholic tradition. The development of denominationalism in the 19th century in America was an effort to arrive at certain common principles, which are the ones you list, but they are less important than the impulse created by revivalism.


45 posted on 03/22/2013 9:27:33 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

RE: Today, Evangelicals may honor to their principles, but they are no more Lutherans or Calvinists than Luther and Calvin were Augustinian.

Excuse me? Have you spoken to devout Calvinists and Lutherans today? (I’m not talking about the wishy washy ones of the PCUSA or ELCA, I’m talking about the millions of Lutherans and Calivinists who REALLY believe the same doctrine Luther and Calivn espoused ).

The thesis that Luther nailed in the Church at Wittenberg which were debated and then condemened by Trent are still in existence today.

Sola Scriptura ( which in effect means the denial of ex-cathedra of the Pope ), Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Soli Deo Glora ... all of these are ALIVE AND WELL TODAY.

Just listen to a Christian radio that broadcasts the teachings of people like John MaCarthur, RC Sproul, etc. and you’ll hear them espoused time and again.

I have to disagree with you here - EVANGELICALS ( the devout ones ) believe in the above SOLA’s that Luther and Calvin espoused.

Also, regarding this -— “he kept developing his own thought and it did not become unchangeable until he died” — Martin Luther did not think of himself as an innovator, he and his colleagues considered themselves REFORMERS, people who wanted the catholic ( as in universal ) church to go back to original Biblical Principles.

You can talk to a devout reformed Christian today and they will tell you that as well.

But having said that, I don’t think you’ve answered my question, in other words, your answers are unclear after so many exchanges.

Are the anathemas of Trent and Vatican I directed towards the DOCTRINES of the reformers or not? If so, the “anyone” in the pronouncement by logic, should apply to those who believe and teach these same doctrines today.

One of them being the non-recognition of the Pope as the Primate of all Christianity.

Therefore, I find it difficult if not impossible to reconcile Vatican II and Vatican I.


46 posted on 03/23/2013 7:28:21 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

BTW, why not answer each of the points I raised in Post #40 above? A yes or no with an explanation as to why the answer is such would go a long way towards clear thinking.


47 posted on 03/23/2013 7:29:25 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
However Luther thought of himself, he was an innovator. It was, to a degree, based on his study of the Church fathers, especially St. Austin. Bur what you list are things he postulated, not things which logically progress from the teachings of any other Church fathers. Dr. Luther is the authority for these doctrines. He felt justified in doing this because he saw the developments for the previous thousand years as innovations or at least imperfect formulation of the Gospel as found in Scripture, but this was simply his opinion. To “save” his theory, he had to reject all existing authority: his rule, the the papacy, the councils and even where they did not suit him the Church fathers. Once he had the protection of his prince and, later, the other German princes, he was free to develop his doctrines, so that in the end, he had a coherent theology that we call Lutheranism. However, this is not what Lutheranism is today. Even as he was warm in the grave, Melanchthon--=his great collaborator-- was moving it toward the Calvinist modification. Between him and today’s evangelicals lie 450 years of history.

Your contention is that the language of the two Vatican Councils cannot be reconciled, but this is I think to take these words out of context. In a way, the Church acts as Luther did as an individual, which is to “save” its theory of authority by reformulating old truths in new language. The doctrine of infallibility was a “strong assertion” of a historic claim of authority by the Bishop of Rome. In a way, this is instrumental. HOW if not by vesting final authority in a single person, is the earthly purity of doctrine to be sustains; how are the many diverse members of the Body of Christ to be kept together and acting in consort? To put it another way, who are the human agents of the Holy Spirit? Obviously, Peter did not simply take the place of Our Lord. No one could. The fact is that Our Lord did not assign him as a kind of Caliph, which was the way that some of the Medieval popes sometimes seemed to act, but as Pope St. Gregory put it, “Servant of the Servants of God.,” In effect,like Moses at the head of the people of Israel. But more so. Moses had never seen His Lord in the flesh. Which is why Paul made a points of connecting with Peter in Jerusalem. Our Lord has ordained Peter to serve a role he never gave to any one else.

That did not, of course, make Peter the first “pope,” The popes are his successors, and here is the difficulty, one can or cannot accept his successors as bishops of Rome as having the same sort of authority as Peter, as being like him the “Keeper of the Keys.” One way to get around this, of course, and that is to downplay Peter’s role. That requires a certain reading of the text, which done mainly by elevating others, such as Paul/James. By treating Peter as no more than the “representative Christian” rarher than as the representative/deputy of Christ. Another way is to deny the existence of a monarchial bishop of Rome, In any case, Luther et al, simply rejected the authority of Rome by interposing his own authority as a scholar,

48 posted on 03/23/2013 10:08:52 AM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

RE: Martin Luther: He felt justified in doing this because he saw the developments for the previous thousand years as innovations or at least imperfect formulation of the Gospel as found in Scripture,

OK, I agree with the above statement. But you seem to be ignoring my question — If Luther’s above study and his above belief was considered anathema to Trent and then re-iterated by Vatican I, why is the anathema not re-iterated in Vatican II for those who share his beliefs today?

Your citing history never answered that question. It only BEGGED the question.

RE: In a way, the Church acts as Luther did as an individual, which is to “save” its theory of authority by reformulating old truths in new language.

Well, if that is the case, then I would expect the Roman Catholic Church to “save” its theory of authority by reformulating old truths in THE SAME LANGUAGE.

Hundreds of thousands of Roman Catholics are even as we speak, LEAVING the church and joining other denominations, In Latin America alone, the Pentecostal movement is growing by leaps and bounds and many of these joiners were born Roman Catholic.

If as you say, The doctrine of Papal infallibility was a “strong assertion” of a historic claim of authority by the Bishop of Rome, I would expect it to be re-iterated in Vatican II, not weakened and calling those who leave the church to join another denomination “United with Christ”.

So, let’s go back to my original question, which was not answered at all. Historical issues you cited did nothing to answer my questions, which are these:

1) The ‘anyone’ in their , ‘if anyone says’ clause refer to specific people in HISTORY PAST, not to non-catholic Christians today.

Yes or No?

2) The anathema of Vatican I and Trent refers only to those who threaten to make war on the Vatican (”Existential threat” <— your words) and NOT to those Reformers and other non-catholic Christians who simply do not recognize the Pope’s authority over them but are not at war ( militarily ) with the Vatican.

Yes or No?

3) Vatican II therefore recognizes the likes of Luis Palau and even the spiritual descendants of the reformers as “united in Christ” together with devout Roman Catholics.

Yes or No?

Surely It isn’t difficult to answer my questions.


49 posted on 03/24/2013 6:10:20 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Should the language of the previous Councils have been re-iterated? That forgets the purpose for which was called, which was to complete to work begun by Vatican I, which was in effect chased out of town when the Italians occupied Rome. It was not to be a doctrinal council, as Trent was. However, it can be asserted, as Benedict has implied, that a party within the Church, treated the Council as not a renewal but as an abrupt departure from the past.

In truth, there was nothing new in this.Since the 18th century, the liberal party, the party of the Enlightenment, has been struggling to gain ascendency in the Church, not only in the Church but in Protestantism. The events of 1789 -1815 slowed its progress in the Church , because so many became unbelievers . Anti-clericalism dominated the political life of so many “Catholic,” Countries. In the Protestant countries, with their weaker clerical class matters took a different course. The sects multiplied and state churches declined. John Wesley’s methodism set the paradign for what happened in North America and the UK. Calvinism was abandoned either for liberalism or form arminianism, or people just stopped talking about theology at all. Wesley himself just straddled the fence, sometimes sounding Calvinist and something Arminian. The evangelical party in the Church of England did the same. Moral theology dominated the scene. The language of the Reformers was repeated but largely emptied of its content. Anti-Catholicism joined all parties.

The Church was embattled everywhere. Freemasonry was the choice the elites in Catholic countries. It was strong in the English-speaking countries as well, not anti-Christian. but still anti-Catholic. The government of Mexico has been anti-Catholics or at best tolerant since the 1820s, when the masonic US Ambassador, Joel Poinsett, was a major influence. Vatican I came about because Pius IX wanted take a stand against “modernity,”and you may recall how his syllabus of errors was received in this country. The same as humanae vitae in 1968, except that in the 1860s, the American Church was still united behind the pope, if only because of the need to confront the strong anti-Catholicism of the times.

I submit, therefore, that the want of the language of previous councils was not the cause of the disaster. Rather it was the revolt against Roman authority under the banner of the “Spirit of Vatican II,” an insurgency that had already begun in the ‘50s.

As for the falling away, it was owing to a loss of faith by the lower clergy and the nuns, who are the “officer corps.” of the Church. In many respects it is much like the Reformation of the 16th Century, which was also led by clergymen, at least in the beginning. Their doctrine is at least Christian, which is why so many Catholics have retreated to the sects from a body whose leadership evidenced so little faith in the doctrine of Trent. But far more have abandoned any meaningful form of Christianity. The opposite of love is, after all, not hate, but indifference.

50 posted on 03/24/2013 8:44:08 AM PDT by RobbyS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-59 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson