“St. Luke, writing in Acts on the testimony of St. Paul, connects baptism with the forgiveness of sins (Acts 22:16; also see Acts 2:38). St. Peter directly links baptism and salvation (1 Peter 3:21). How can someone get his sins forgiven or be saved without grace? He cant. Baptism gives grace.”
You dig your unscriptural hole digger.
The scripture cannot be broken, and therefore, grace is a free gift by God, and cannot be a baptism which is given by men. Baptism does not cause forgiveness of sins, but is only a sign of a spiritual baptism by the Holy Ghost.
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
The Jews, similarly, practiced baptism to represent life changes, and not, of itself, a saving act. It was necessary for converts to be immersed in water. The Christian, therefore, is baptized to show physically a spiritual reality that occurs by the power of God.
Paul, as well, calls the Old Testament washings and Jewish practices symbolic:
Heb 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: (9) Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; (10) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
For example, Cornelius and his family, before they were baptized in water, were filled and baptized by the Holy Ghost, a result that can only mean salvation of their souls.
Act 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
The same is also true for the Thief on the cross, who went to paradise that very day with Jesus, cleansed of all his sin without the working of baptism.
“No, it doesnt.”
Roman debate at its finest. Dozens of scriptures proving it, and the guy replies “No it doesn’t.” Please post your evidence and do some scripture exegesis.
“What you think of his letter is unimportant.”
Apparently, the content of his letter is unimportant to you as well.
“Whoa! Right there - Bishop of Rome. Case closed.”
No, not really. You can be disingenuous about it, but we both know the “Universal Pastor,” with supreme power over the church, whom binds the Bishops together, is not someone or an office you would ignore.
But, if you believe it, and you have to, I suppose I have a bridge to sell you.
“Actually, no it isnt. And Peter made the decision at Jerusalem.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them. . . 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Peter made the decision. Everyone kept their silence.”
What an atrocious twisting of the scripture. After these verses, James is the one who makes the decision on this matter. There is no debate on this.
Act 15:13-22 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: (14) Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (15) And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, (16) After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: (17) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. (18) Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. (19) Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (20) But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. (22) Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
This is the exact opposition position of the one Peter presented earlier in verse 11, which you omitted:
Act 15:10-11 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
James specifically says, “My SENTENCE is...” and gives his decision on the matter.
How you manage to make Peter, who speaks first, allegedly to have the last word, instead of James, who spoke last and with authority, who in turn decided to forbid the practice of eating things sacrificed, which Peter opposed, is beyond me.
“Here. Read part of Theodorets letter to Pope Leo.”
Still refusing to acknowledge that the “Throne of Peter,” according to Theodoret and Gregory, was possessed by three Bishops.
It doesn’t matter how much you repeat the same lame argument if you refuse to acknowledge what they clearly said on the matter.
“You dig your unscriptural hole digger.”
“The Jews, similarly, practiced baptism to represent life changes, and not, of itself, a saving act.”
Christian baptism is different than anything before it - and Peter made it clear what happens through baptism.
“The same is also true for the Thief on the cross, who went to paradise that very day with Jesus, cleansed of all his sin without the working of baptism.”
1) If Paradise is Heaven - which is what you probably believe - then how is it that Jesus preached to the prisoners in the Prison of the Patriarchs? That isn’t heaven either.
2) Some men will be saved without baptism - such as those who lived before baptism existed. That doesn’t negate baptism in itself.
“Roman debate at its finest. Dozens of scriptures proving it, and the guy replies No it doesnt. Please post your evidence and do some scripture exegesis.”
When you actually deal with the verses I posted I might do more. Until then I don’t see the need.
“No, not really. You can be disingenuous about it, but we both know the Universal Pastor, with supreme power over the church, whom binds the Bishops together, is not someone or an office you would ignore.”
Don’t claim to know what I think. That is a type of “making it personal” and the mods don’t like that. Also, you’re wrong about what I think. Man, you’re not doing well.
“What an atrocious twisting of the scripture. After these verses, James is the one who makes the decision on this matter. There is no debate on this.”
Really? Says who that there is no debate on this? I have seen debates on this so I’m wondering who you’re citing.
“Still refusing to acknowledge that the Throne of Peter, according to Theodoret and Gregory, was possessed by three Bishops.”
You’re still refusing to acknowledge that Theodoret had views that go against yours.
“It doesnt matter how much you repeat the same lame argument if you refuse to acknowledge what they clearly said on the matter.”
At the very least that would have to apply to you in any case.