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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

you wrote:

“Based on what? Your assertion?”

Does anyone doubt that Christian baptism is different than Jewish baptism?

“Why should we divorce the practice of baptism as performed by the Jews?”

No divorce, just graduation. Christian baptism is from Christ. It is the fulfillment of what came before it. It is greater than what came before it.

“Especially when it is clear that it is a spiritual regeneration of the Holy Spirit which is superior?”

And taht happens through baptism - hence the forgiveness of sins and salvation as said by Luke and Peter.

“But yet, you would have us divorce it from the practice of the Jews, only to make it even more carnal than the Jews, as if spiritual regeneration can be accomplished through a physical act.”

It’s no more carnal than Christ who took on flesh to accomplish a spiritual mission.

“You assert alot. You try to prove very little.”

Sometimes no amount of proof will work because some are so lost in darkness and bigotry that they can’t understand even the smallest of things.

“You are denying that the Thief was saved?”

Nope. I am merely pointing out the truth: not all men who are saved are saved with baptism but baptism’s grace still saves, and Paradise is not necessarily Heaven as scripture scholars have long recognized. When Jesus died He went to Paradise (Luke 23:43). But He told Mary “I am not yet ascended unto the Father” (John 20:17). Only after His resurrection did Jesus ascend to the Father (Acts 2:32-33). So the dwelling place of the Father sure doesn’t sound like Paradise. Could Paradise be a lower level of Heaven? If so, then how could Jesus have been in the Prison of the Patriarchs and in Paradise (Heaven) with the St, Dismas (the Good Thief)? Didn’t you ever notice that before?

“If he did not go to hell, then his progress must be to heaven, whether he went with Jesus to an allegedly separate paradise and then to heaven is irrelevant.”

Don’t you know the scriptures? He went to the Prison of the Patriarchs (1 Peter 3:19). Don’t you know this?

“You also dodge Cornelius and his family who were baptized by the Spirit before the baptism by water, and then, without bothering to reconcile it, you make more baseless assertions.”

No, I didn’t dodge anything. I have no doubt the Cornelius recieved gifts of faith from the Holy Spirit. I also have no doubt that they were baptism since that was the common practice. The gifts before baptism do not negate the gifts of baptism.

“As for the scripture you are referring to, while it doesn’t prove your point either way, and is therefore utterly irrelevant, I will add that it is not settled that Jesus preached to the dead, and it does not reference the patriarchs, but rather the antedeluvians.”

It’s called the Prison of the Patriarchs. That’s its name.

“When you can explain how the Universal Pasotr, possessor of supreme power, the vicar of Christ by whom all authority presides, is “just another Bishop not worthy of mentioning as separate”, then you can belittle me.”

No, I’ll choose to “belittle” (i.e. tell the truth you don’t like) all the time.

“Says you, who evidently stopped debating it in favor of writing this useless sentence.”

The point is that you were wrong - there’s plenty of debate on it.

“You’re still refusing to acknowledge that Theodoret believed more than one person represented Peter. You refuse to even discuss it. IOW, you can’t.”

No, it just doesn’t mean what you seem to be lending to it. Don’t all bishops in some sense represent Peter? And yet Peter was different and His last see is different and always has been.

“If all you have are assertions and dodges and half-arguments, I’ll not keep responding.”

Great. Walk away.

169 posted on 03/18/2013 4:59:14 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

“And taht happens through baptism - hence the forgiveness of sins and salvation as said by Luke and Peter.”

It is self-evident that if forgiveness and salvation came from baptism, that the person, filled with the Holy Spirit, would be a Christian who grows ever closer to God.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

He who is filled with the Holy Spirit has been regenerated, and is no longer the dead man he was before.

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Furthermore, since we know that it is God who saves, and who predestinates a man to salvation, the work if God’s work alone, who, having chosen us, also justifies us and glorifies us.

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So then, if Baptism forces God’s hand to make this individual one of the “elect,” and moves God to send to him the Holy Spirit who regenerates and washes him, it would stand to follow that all those baptized would live regenerated lives, growing ever more faithful and sanctified.

And yet, every Catholic child is baptized, and more than half in America do not even practice Catholicism, nor are they saved in any way, but are twice as much the sons of the devil as the generation before. For those who are regenerate, their faith is such that it is towards the working of good deeds. But the unregenerate do not seek God, but instead embrace carnality and shallow visions of righteousness.

You do not know the difference between the regenerate and the unregenerate.

“It’s no more carnal than Christ who took on flesh to accomplish a spiritual mission.”

And yet, it was a spiritual mission, for God is spirit, and those who worship Him must do so in Spirit and in Truth, and not through the same carnal methods of the Jews, who could not save themselves no matter how hard they washed, for salvation is by grace, through faith, and not by any works of the law.

“Sometimes no amount of proof will work because some are so lost in darkness and bigotry that they can’t understand even the smallest of things.”

So I’m the bigoted one, because you ignore a dozen scripture quotes saying quite clearly that we are saved by grace, and grace is the free gift of God, unmoved by man, and guaranteed to those whom He elects?

“Nope. I am merely pointing out the truth: not all men who are saved are saved with baptism but baptism’s grace still saves,”

If “nope,” you have no point, and are wasting my time with an argument I did not ask for. But if the thief is saved not by baptism, then you regard that he was saved by grace, and not by any actual working of the law.

So then, you also do not believe your own interpretation, which says that one must believe and be baptized to be saved. If there are those who are saved before baptism, then it stands to follow that spiritual regeneration is not impaired or controlled by any physical act. And we know this much simply from observation, since baptism does not make a man better, but only if he had already made a committment, and thus sealed with the sign of water what God has already wrought with fire and spirit.

“Didn’t you ever notice that before?”

Why should I notice something not in the scripture? Supposing your obtuse reading was correct, it makes no mention of patriarchs, but only antediluvians. It doesn’t matter how much you spam that it is patriarchs. Patriarchs aren’t antediluvians.

“The gifts before baptism do not negate the gifts of baptism.”

Sure they do, especially when the gift you say comes by water baptism is already given before water baptism. For Cornelius, why be baptized by water for the purpose of receiving what he already has gotten? But if to be baptized to show communion with Christian peoples, it is more than worthwhile.

“The point is that you were wrong - there’s plenty of debate on it.”

Except that you are not debating it. Therefore, paucas pallabris, let the world pass by, Sessa!

“Don’t all bishops in some sense represent Peter?”

It does not say that they “in some sense” represent Peter. It says that the See of Peter is governed by three Bishops who all rule with divine authority, sitting in his seat, and therefore represent Peter in totality and not in “some sense.”

170 posted on 03/18/2013 6:06:40 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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