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To: Houghton M.
Based on your snarky comments, I’m going to be blunt. I hope you forgive me if it offends you – that’s not my intention whatsoever.

I asked for your examples of earthy-bound souls praying to heavenly-bound souls and you simply repeated your oblique reference to St. John in Revelation. If this is such a strongly supported doctrine, you should be able to enumerate several examples. But, your argument is too weak, so you cast dispersions on my understanding rather than provide scriptural examples.

"I gave you the extended scenes in the Book of Revelation and you ignored it.

You didn't actually give me a quote, but I knew what you meant and I DID addresses it. I said

"I'm not talking about someone who is miraculously lifted into heaven and given a special revelation of things to come, I'm talking about doctrinal instruction or examples of engaging in normal prayer with the departed. "

Also, the elders in heaven spoke to John, but John did NOT speak or pray to them. Same with Peter at the Mount of Transfiguration.

"There are no merely “dead”” people as far as Christians who have died in Christ. THere are hundreds of Scriptures in the New Testament about the dead in Christ being present with him. If you are in Christ and they are in Christ, what part of ïn Christ don’t you get?"

The Church: I'm "in the church", but I'm sitting on my couch. It’s a statement of relationship. I’m part of the church by being a believer, saved by grace, with a specific purpose or calling. Those who believe are part of the body of Christ as individuals in a group. Yes, we are “with Him”, we are NOT Him.

The Spirit: I concede the spirit does not vanish upon death and it’s either with our Lord or in Hades, but a person’s spirit does not suddenly take on all of the powers of an omnificent/potent/present God. According to the Bible, our spirit remains an individual entity – it doesn’t become a part of some universal god.

Prayer: We communicate with God through Jesus. No one other then God - The Father/Son/Holy Spirit - is capable of omnificent/potent/present deeds. St. Francis isn’t God who can receive and respond to a million people praying to him all at the same time. That concept is far outside the realm of sound Biblical teaching. It can only be supported by ancient cultural traditions and not by Biblical scripture.

180 posted on 03/19/2013 6:04:50 PM PDT by uncommonsense (Conservatives believe what they see; Liberals see what they believe.)
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To: uncommonsense

You wrote: “We communicate with God through Jesus”

Which is EXACTLY what Catholics do when they ask their fellow Christians in heaven to pray with and for them.

You have a wooden understanding of what we Catholics do. You ask for confirmation only of what fits your presupposed wooden understanding.

I gave you the example that undergirds our understanding of what we are doing when we ask saints to pray with us. It is done IN CHRIST, in the mystery of the Body of Christ which is present simultaneously in heaven and on earth.

You do not want to open your mind to entertain the possibliity that you might have wrong impressions of what we think we are doing. The prooftexts you claim I have not delivered are prooftexts that would undergird YOUR presupposed but false understanding of what we believe we are doing.

You do not have sufficient openness of mind to entertain possibilities of interpretation of Scripture other than those you already hold.

I shake off the dust of my feet against your closedmindedness. You want a prooftext for that?

181 posted on 03/20/2013 10:01:26 AM PDT by Houghton M.
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