Is Pope Francis a fraud? (That didn't take long)

Salon ^ | March 16, 2013 | Andrew O'Hehir

[2ndDivisionVet]

It’s easy — maybe too easy — for people with progressive political views to dismiss the Roman Catholic Church as a vile anachronism, a nightmarish patriarchy of aging pedophiles, woman-haters, homophobes and/or closet cases that can offer nothing of value to the contemporary world. When it comes to the church hierarchy, and especially the Roman Curia, the corrupt and labyrinthine Vatican bureaucracy that makes the Soviet-era Kremlin look like a model of transparency, that point of view seems more than justified.

But the church is not just the hierarchy, and as the spectacle of the last several days has demonstrated, there are millions or billions of people around the world — Catholics and non-Catholics alike — who wish the newly elected Pope Francis well and yearn to see in him the possibility of hope and renewal for this ancient, powerful and heavily tarnished institution that claims direct succession from the apostles of Jesus. As the first Latin American pope and the first Jesuit pope, Francis represents a break with tradition in several ways. Both the name he has chosen and his personal modesty and humility are meant to recall St. Francis of Assisi, one of the most adored figures in the Christian tradition, and no doubt also St. Francis de Sales, a 17th-century mystic, author and ascetic known for his devotion to the poor.

But the former Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio emerges from a Jesuit order that has been largely purged of its independent-minded or left-leaning intellectuals, and his reputation at home in Latin America is decidedly mixed. While Francis seems to be an appealing personality in some ways — albeit one with a shadowy relationship with the former military dictatorship in Argentina, along with a record on gay rights that borders on hate speech.....

[BlueDragon]

Oh that's right he never did supply them.

In several dozen other threads (at least) he most assuredly has. Doing so in threads where such evidences weren't exactly germane to the rest of the conversation, at times. Using the statistics like a bludgeon even...I guess you missed all of that.

Yes we know that Protestants vote overwhelmingly for democrats thank you.

Again, do you have a source for that? There is persistence in demanding citation from the other, but unwillingness to carry a similar burden yourself for the above quoted claim. I see too, that none others are coming to the rescue in regards to that narrow claim. I suggest it is because it can't be done, other than under specious conditions, at best.

Yet there is some pretense towards yet another (who has generally been making sense) that they themselves be childish. Such examples and argumentative behavior is # 27,347 on the list of reasons I find no special charism of "righteousness" within the ranks of the RCC, as compared to other Christian associations [generally].

It's like sleeping in a garage, makes no one into a car... but nevermind my own personal level of underwhelmed-ness concerning such matters, here's a link from a source perhaps friendly to you;

The Day After: Catholic Vote 2012

Here's where much that can be found concerning polling data sorted by religious affiliation (for better or worse) can I believe, be traced back to; http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/How-the-Faithful-Voted-2012-Preliminary-Exit-Poll-Analysis.aspx

From the above table, it can be seen that twice, Obama carried the so-called "Catholic vote", if there is any such thing...
Which makes me a bit wrong upthread, from going by memory, I mistakenly thought Romney had gotten 54% of the RC vote. I was wrong. It looks more like 50%. Perhaps my memory was affected by some of the denialists spin miesters around here?

When the numbers (in other polling data) separate out those whom attend church frequently, there is a resulting voting pattern breaking towards conservatives (or their approximation/stand-ins, like Romney).

But LOOK at the chart. What do you see for the "born again, Evangelical" vote? Nearly 80%

Even full coverage "protestant" numbers, show that weird " Yes we know that Protestants vote overwhelmingly for democrats thank you." to be quite wrong, though you were previously somewhat correct concerning Hispanic Catholics going over to Democrats in much greater numbers.

I am sorry protestants far too many Catholics around here are just too intellectually dishonest to deal with. I am going to do something more productive such as bang my head against the wall. Feel free to have the last word

[verga]

In several dozen other threads (at least) he most assuredly has. Doing so in threads where such evidences weren't exactly germane to the rest of the conversation, at times. Using the statistics like a bludgeon even...I guess you missed all of that.

Gee I am sorry I don't have time to read every single post on every single thread. But thank you for posting the information.

[Smokin' Joe]

It is the Hispanic Catholics who vote Democrat, the non-hispanic white Catholics vote significantly more Republican.

[Smokin' Joe]

Even full coverage "protestant" numbers, show that weird " Yes we know that Protestants vote overwhelmingly for democrats thank you." to be quite wrong,

Unless we are talking about Black Protestants, which indicates maybe something other than religion is at play here.

White Catholics voted consistently Republican, Hispanic Catholics did not.

For some, the "gimmie" will take precedence every time.

[verga]

It is the Hispanic Catholics who vote Democrat, the non-hispanic white Catholics vote significantly more Republican.

My thought / belief is that would be due to the immigration issue.

[BlueDragon]

Yes,I knew exactly what a few here would focus comment upon when I brought that chart...some things are predictable.

Unless we are talking about Black Protestants, which indicates maybe something other than religion is at play here.

Yes, the Democrats have long been winning the black vote. In the last two presidental cycles, even at greater percentage than usual. Somehow, they must be brought around to cinsider just what they are so fully aligning themselves with---the hard left athiests!

Maybe something more than religion at play--ok. But how do we explain or understand the major lag between the "white Catholic" vote and the "born again Evangelical" vote?

Are the born agains just a bunch of big business/corporation promoting racist (even as Obama and Co. are proving themselves crony capatalists while advocating socialism/communism for the masses, which the maases get to be taxed to pay for) but the "white Catholics" are what -- "more balanced" or something? That vote is split near to the middle, with some greater numbers going against Obama in this last elction cycle compared to previously. Did some of them finally wake up? At least nobody can much simply call them "racist" as the TeaParty is?

[BlueDragon]

My thought / belief is that would be due to the immigration issue.

Such genius! Who would have thunk it?

Now what of the rest? I'll settle for not seeing the same baseless claims come around again. THEN maybe some further discussion can take place...with some around here on FR (not necessarily myself) able to offer some insight, and/or suggestions of how conservatism as an idea may be better promoted.

[verga]

I'll settle for not seeing the same baseless claims come around again.

How many times do I have to politely ask for a source? I clearly said I was not disagreeing with the numbers I just wanted to see the source. Is that really to much to ask?

[MarkBsnr]

Very good. Let us see some examples of how the Irish (and the Italians, and the Poles and the...) Catholics were treated by the NorthEast establishment (nominally Republican at the time).

Although there may be some truth in this:

[BlueDragon]

Unions. Irish Catholics whose ancestors came here, were treated as bad or worse than blacks, who got the most dangerous [lousy] jobs because a slave was too valuable to risk, and whose families have been teamsters and longshoremen and coal miners since.

There's some truth to that. But at risk of ignoring that other "poor whites" received much the same treatment, long after slavery was ended, by which I mean, a Baptist or Congregationalist sort faced very much the same hazards.

Somehow...the Baptists didn't end up the slaves of labor unions. Were they naturally or genetically "smarter"? I'd say that is highly doubtful. But there must be something of what they were taught in their own religious traditions which has led them to more strenuosly object to the machinations of the radical left (who have long been leveraging pro labor union sentiments).

[BlueDragon]

So that particular gin-joint didn't want any Irish paper-hangers. Maybe they could just go paper Irish bars, instead.

Besides, the balance was to be paid in whiskey. It may have been in part, sound business decision to exclude Irishmen. *^)

[MarkBsnr]

There weren’t any Irish bars at that point - the immigration had just begun. You may wish to Google up Thomas Nast’s antiCatholic cartoons from the 1800s in order to view the level of antiCatholicism at that point.

[MarkBsnr]

Somehow...the Baptists didn't end up the slaves of labor unions. Were they naturally or genetically "smarter"? I'd say that is highly doubtful. But there must be something of what they were taught in their own religious traditions which has led them to more strenuosly object to the machinations of the radical left (who have long been leveraging pro labor union sentiments).

A lot of Baptists were killed during colonial and post colonial days, but most of them were driven out - it was the NE Catholics and the Quakers that took the brunt of Republican Reformist anger. The Baptists went South and established plantations (along with the firm establishment of the slave trade in the US). Where were the Irish to go?

It wasn't the Irish who rejected the Republican Party. It was the Republican Party who rejected the immigrant Catholics of the late 1800s. It takes generations to erase that sort of rejection. For example, look at the Serbs and the Croats - brothers, really, but bitter enemies.

[verga]

Somehow...the Baptists didn't end up the slaves of labor unions. Were they naturally or genetically "smarter"? I'd say that is highly doubtful. But there must be something of what they were taught in their own religious traditions which has led them to more strenuosly object to the machinations of the radical left (who have long been leveraging pro labor union sentiments). How much of this was due to location. You tended to find Irish, Italians, and Poles in the North east which was where the industrial center was located. Baptists were/are found more in the south in the Bible belt agrarian area.

[BlueDragon]

You make it sound like only Republicans (the party of Lincoln) had anti-Irish prejudices. White Southerners for a long time...voted Democrat.

So I'm sorry sir, but that particular sort of short-hand historical portrayal which you seem to be bringing here as accurate, is too much over-simplification and blend of misidentification (leaving Republicans holding the bag) that is part & parcel of the impossibly screwed-up worldview of today's American liberals, which they both promote and further distort.

[MarkBsnr]

Look it up. You don’t have to believe me.

Just consider this: the Irish largely immigrated to the cities, where there was at least the chance of work, which was important given the artificially constructed potato famine and the routine elimination of Irish from their age-old farms.

Now, a lot of Irish wound up in the hills, driven to subsistance living, following the Appalachians around to Tennessee, where there was no population pressure.

Back to the issue of antiCatholic prejudice - well - Google is your friend, if you would reject my thesis.

[Salvation]

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