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A photo response to those who say God loves everyone and has a wonderful plan for their lives...
The Bible ^ | Paul the Apostle

Posted on 03/18/2013 12:23:39 PM PDT by darrellmaurina


Romans 9:15-24

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Theology
KEYWORDS: calvin; calvinism; predestination; reformed
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1 posted on 03/18/2013 12:23:39 PM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

GRPL Ping.


2 posted on 03/18/2013 12:24:57 PM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: darrellmaurina

Calvinist huh? Yawn.


3 posted on 03/18/2013 12:26:56 PM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: darrellmaurina

You’re right. The yucky wart/mole on Obambi’s face has moved to his chin. Udder’ ‘dan ‘dat, it looks like him . . . or at least like his brudder’.


4 posted on 03/18/2013 12:27:42 PM PDT by laweeks
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To: darrellmaurina

James 1:13-15

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.


5 posted on 03/18/2013 12:29:06 PM PDT by swampfox101
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To: darrellmaurina

BWA HAHAHA

I’ve been quoting that Demotivational poster for years!


6 posted on 03/18/2013 12:41:06 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: darrellmaurina

God has mercy to those who ask sincerely for forgiveness. I find it humorous that today’s secular society has little time for God, but they all seem to think that they are going to heaven.

Whenever a celebrity dies from an overdose or from some other cause that was brought on by their behavior, the media lionize them and talk about how this or that person is up in heaven with some other great celebrity.

There is no sense of God’s justice at all. They view God as some sort of Santa Claus who grants all his children presents upon their death. But the Almighty and Merciful God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as well as of Jesus, His Son, is a just God and will not be mocked.


7 posted on 03/18/2013 1:05:27 PM PDT by Gumdrop
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To: demshateGod; darrellmaurina
Calvinist huh? Yawn.

Seems more like scriptural to me. And that's nothing to yawn about.

Hoss

8 posted on 03/18/2013 1:06:29 PM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: HossB86

Cherry picking aint scriptural.


9 posted on 03/18/2013 1:08:50 PM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: darrellmaurina
Let's not forget the mission of Isaiah:

I wonder how many of us would like the idea that our mission was to harden people's heart so they wouldn't believe with the express purpose to bring about their destruction.
10 posted on 03/18/2013 1:14:17 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: laweeks
"The yucky wart/mole on Obambi’s face has moved to his chin. Udder’ ‘dan ‘dat, it looks like him"

That is what I thought until I recalled he would have had many face lifts.

11 posted on 03/18/2013 1:17:46 PM PDT by Average Al
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To: HarleyD; HossB86; demshateGod; darrellmaurina

BTW-Isaiah 6:8 is frequently quoted in missions to save the lost. However, this was not Isaiah’s mission according to Isa 6:9-11. It was exactly opposite.


12 posted on 03/18/2013 1:18:59 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: darrellmaurina

That’s real encouragement right there. < sarc >


13 posted on 03/18/2013 1:21:09 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: demshateGod
Cherry picking aint scriptural.

Hmmm. Let's see...

Ephesians 1:3-5 :"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according the purpose of his will,"

And check out verse 11 also.... "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"

Romans 8:28-29: "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

Romans 9:10-18: "and not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works, but because of him who calls--she was told "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

From Christ himself: John 10:25-30: "Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. the works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

That's just a few "cherries" -- but they're mighty good ones.

Hoss

14 posted on 03/18/2013 1:59:48 PM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: HarleyD

But you can’t deny that God’s purpose through Isaiah was Israel’s salvation. The whole book is God begging Israel to get right. But God, being who He is, knew they would reject Him. It’s really that simple. God knows who will reject Him and who will accept Him, but His desire is that all are saved.

Isaiah 55:6&7

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Isa 49:15
Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.


15 posted on 03/18/2013 2:03:33 PM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: HossB86

Golly! A half dozen verses that reference something about election, vs 500 verses about the role of faith and believing. Hmmm...

“No one has ever been up to Heaven except the Son of Man who came down from Heaven. The Son of Man must be lifted above the heads of men—as Moses lifted up that serpent in the desert—so that any man who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life. You must understand that God has not sent his Son into the world to pass sentence upon it, but to save it—through him. Any man who believes in him is not judged at all. It is the one who will not believe who stands already condemned, because he will not believe in the character of God’s only Son. This is the judgment—that light has entered the world and men have preferred darkness to light because their deeds are evil. Anybody who does wrong hates the light and keeps away from it, for fear his deeds may be exposed. But anybody who is living by the truth will come to the light to make it plain that all he has done has been done through God.”

We are chosen IN HIM.

Ephesians 1:13 - “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit...”


16 posted on 03/18/2013 2:04:34 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (America is becoming California, and California is becoming Detroit. Detroit is already hell.)
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To: HossB86

Job 1:1 There was a man in the Land of Uz, whose name was Job.

The Calvinist presupposition will mess up your reading of scripture. Those passages should serve more as an encouragement to God’s children, that God will do what He promised, that we will be conformed into Christ’s image. It says nothing about whether or not He intends for all men to be saved.


17 posted on 03/18/2013 2:13:02 PM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: darrellmaurina

You’re reformed because God reformed you. It takes the same sovereign grace for people to see the doctrine of election and be humbled by it. You’ll get very little agreement from folks on FR and will most likely get lots of ridicule. Taken comfort in your knowing the truth. God saved you against your will and that is Grace with a capital G.


18 posted on 03/18/2013 2:20:08 PM PDT by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: demshateGod

The scriptures are clear. Whom God predestinates, He calls. Whom He calls, He justifies. Whom He justifies, He glorifies. This is not a scripture of hope for those who think they had the good sense to convert. It is a hope that springs from the knowledge that you are in the hand of God, and no one can wrest you out. As Jesus Himself said, ALL those whom the Father gives Him WILL come to Him. Salvation is the work of God from the alpha to the omega.


19 posted on 03/18/2013 2:25:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: crghill

Amen!


20 posted on 03/18/2013 2:26:01 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

That would be salvation by election and off the mark of salvation by grace through faith.

>>” and no one can wrest you out.”

No one can but you choose to leave.


21 posted on 03/18/2013 2:29:54 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Mr Rogers

The scripture cannot be broken. When Paul says that no man can call Jesus the Christ, save by the Holy Ghost, we can believe it. Therefore, your 500 verses must make room for the ones you find inconvenient.


22 posted on 03/18/2013 2:29:57 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: D-fendr

No one is saved by election. Election is simply God’s plan. Men are saved by the grace of God, who, through His own free willl, chose to snatch you, a sinner, from the fires that are to come. The scripture does not say that a person that is God’s can leave Him.


23 posted on 03/18/2013 2:35:52 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

No election, no grace, no faith, no salvation - ergo salvation by election.

This would make Jesus ministry moot and the Gospel nonsensical.


24 posted on 03/18/2013 2:39:37 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: demshateGod

I’m not a Calvinist. I’m respectful to Calvinist brethren. I hope you’re kidding.


25 posted on 03/18/2013 2:45:02 PM PDT by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: D-fendr

We have grace, election, faith and salvation - thus the Gospel is not moot. You simply misunderstand the word election. It is the act which follows from the motivation, which is God’s mercy. That is the true Gospel message. It is not about what we do for Christ, or about our own works or willpower, but rather it is about what Christ has done for us, who saved us while we were yet sinners. You can dislike the concept, but it does not revoke what the scripture clearly says.


26 posted on 03/18/2013 2:49:05 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I believe the doctrine is that no election, no... the rest.

So everything is conditional upon election. This is salvation by election. Quite different from the teaching of other Christian doctrine.


27 posted on 03/18/2013 2:54:17 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

Nay, it is salvation by the grace of God. As Paul said, it is not by him who runs, or him who wills, but of God who shows mercy. Paul himself is the poster child of it, who was saved mightily by the direct appearance of Christ. Your philosophical problems and misuse of the word aside, it matters nothing if you don’t reconcile the scriptures. This IS the Gospels, and runs up and down the entire New Testament.


28 posted on 03/18/2013 3:03:42 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: darrellmaurina
Ahh, yes. One of the original demotivators. It's perfect for the "purpose obsessed".

For some reason despair.com is coming up asking for a user name and password. :-(.

29 posted on 03/18/2013 3:21:11 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means." --I. Montoya)
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To: demshateGod
The Calvinist presupposition…

Funny--I didn't think God-breathed Scripture had a presupposition. I just quoted the chapters and verses. Seems pretty plain and obvious to me.

Sorry if you can't see it.

Hoss

30 posted on 03/18/2013 4:05:10 PM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

The Holy Spirit undoubtedly does reveal God to man, but not irresistibly:

“And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.”

The call to repent is an honest call. God does not lie. He doesn’t command anyone to repent without allowing them to do so. If they refuse, so be it.

“Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”


31 posted on 03/18/2013 4:07:11 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (America is becoming California, and California is becoming Detroit. Detroit is already hell.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

This material comes from Zondervan’s NIV Life in the Spirit Study Bible. The description of the doctrines of election and predestination is followed by some comments quoted from the study Bible’s notes on 1 Peter 1:2 and Romans 8:29 to show how the corporate election perspective might view the place of foreknowledge in election, also quite different from the traditional Arminian view, though completely consonant with Arminian theology, figured as it is within a conditional view of election and predestination.

Election. God’s choice of those who believe in Christ is an important teaching of the apostle Paul (see Ro 8:29-33; 9:6-26; 11:5, 7, 28; Col 3:12; 1 Th 1:4; 2 Th 2:13; Tit 1:1). Election (Gk eklego) refers to God choosing in Christ a people whom he destines to be holy and blameless in his sight (cf. 2 Th 2:13). Paul sees this election as expressing God’s initiative as the God of infinite love in giving us as finite creation every spiritual blessing through the redemptive work of his Son (1:3-5). Paul’s teaching about election involves the following truths:

(1) Election is Christocentric, i.e., election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. “He chose us in him” (Eph. 1:4; see 1:1, note). Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, “Here is my servant whom I have chosen” (Mt 12:18; cf. Isa 42:1, 6; 1 Pet 2:4). Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect (Eph 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13). No one is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.

(2) Election is “in him…through his blood” (Eph 1:7). God purposed before creation (Eph. 1:4) to form a people through Christ’s redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded on Christ’s sacrificial death to save us from our sins (Ac 20:28; Ro 3:24-26).

(3) Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23; see Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, [Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers]). This was true already of Israel in the OT (see Dt 29:18-21, note; 2Ki 21:14, note; see article on God’s Covenant with the Israelites, p. 298).

(4) The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remains conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with him. Paul demonstrates this as follows. (a) God’s eternal purpose for the church is that we should “be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgiveness of sins (1:7) and to the church’s purity as the bride of Christ. God’s elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (see Ro 8:14; Gal. 5:16-25). The apostle repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (see Eph 2:10; 3:14-19; 4:1-3, 13-24; 5:1-18). (b) Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will “present her to himself as a radiant church…holy and blameless” (Eph 5:27). (c) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4) only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this clearly: Christ will “present you holy in his sight without blemish…if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel” (Col 1:22-23).

(5) Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (Jn 3:16-17; 1Ti 2:4-6; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9) but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God’s gift of salvation in Christ (Eph 2:8; 3:17; cf. Ac 20:21; Ro 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ’s elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is both God’s initiative and our response in election (see Ro 8:29, note; 2 Pet 1:1-11).

Predestination. Predestination (Gk prooizo) means “to decide beforehand” and applies to God’s purposes comprehended in election. Election is God’s choice “in Christ” of a people (the true church) for himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God’s people (all genuine believers in Christ).

(1) God predestines his elect to be: (a) called (Rom. 8:30); (b) justified (Ro 3:24, 8:30); (c) glorified (Ro 8:30); (d) conformed to the likeness of his Son (Ro 8:29); (e) holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); (f) adopted as God’s children (1:5); (g) redeemed (1:7); (h) recipients of an inheritance (1:14); (i) for the praise of his glory (Eph 1:2; 1 Pe 2:9); (j) recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14); and (k) created to do good works (Eph 2:10).

(2) Predestination, like election, refers to the corporate body of Christ (i.e., the true spiritual church), and comprehends individuals only in association with that body through a living faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:5, 7, 13; cf. Ac 2:38-41; 16:31).

Summary. Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship’s destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ. [Life in the Spirit Study Bible, pp. 1854-1855]

Life in the Spirit Study Bible note on 1 Peter 1:2 –

the foreknowledge of God We are “chosen” to be God’s people according to his foreknowledge, i.e., according to God’s own comprehensive knowledge of his plan of redemption in Christ for the church, even before creation and human history began (see Rom. 8:29 note). Foreknowledge is virtually a synonym of God’s sovereign and far-seeing purpose to redeem according to his eternal love. The “chosen” are the company of true believers, chosen in harmony with God’s determined plan to redeem the church by the blood of Jesus Christ through the Spirit’s sanctifying work (see article on Election and Predestination, p. 1845). All believers must participate in their election by their response of faith and by being eager to make their calling and election sure (see 2 Pe 1:5, 10, notes).

Life in the Spirit Study Bible note on Romans 8:29 –

those God foreknew “Foreknew” in this verse is equivalent to “foreloved” and is used in the sense of “to set loving regard on,” “to choose to bestow love on from eternity” (cf. Ex 2:25; Ps 1:6 Hos 13:5; Mt 7:23; 1 Cor 8:3; Gal 4:9; 1 Jn 3:1).

(1) Foreknowledge means that God purposed from eternity to love and redeem the human race through Christ (5:8; Jn 3:16). The recipient of God’s foreknowledge or forelove is stated in plural and refers to the church. That is, God’s forelove is primarily for the corporate body of Christ (Eph 1:4; 2:4; 1 Jn 4:19) and includes individuals only as they identify themselves with this corporate body through abiding faith in and union with Christ (Jn 15:1-6; see article on Election and Predestination, p. 1854)

(2) The corporate body of Christ will attain to glorification (v. 30). Individual believers will fall short of glorification if they separate themselves from that foreloved body and fail to maintain their faith in Christ (vv. 12-14, 17; Col 1:21-23).


32 posted on 03/18/2013 4:19:54 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (America is becoming California, and California is becoming Detroit. Detroit is already hell.)
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To: HossB86
John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

I like these:

John 12:32 -- "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (Jesus was lifted up (crucified) and draws all men. Most choose not to come.)

John 5:40 -- "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (They choose not to come.)

1 Timothy 2:3,4 -- "For this is good an acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (God wants all men be saved, but most choose not to.)

Acts 7:51 -- "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your Fathers did, so do ye." (Most resist, choosing not to come to the savior.)

33 posted on 03/18/2013 4:29:20 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: righttackle44

I’ve known a few calvinists. I’ve liked all of them. I dont have any patience for calvinism though.


34 posted on 03/18/2013 4:31:44 PM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: demshateGod
God knows who will reject Him and who will accept Him, but His desire is that all are saved.

It is impossible that God has a desire that he is unable to accomplish.

That would mean he was not all-powerful, but he is all-powerful. If he wants something to happen, he makes it happen. He knows what he is going to make happen in the future.
35 posted on 03/18/2013 5:08:54 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Mr Rogers
The Holy Spirit undoubtedly does reveal God to man, but not irresistibly:

No man can overpower God.

If God elects that he should bestow his Grace upon you or I, that we should have faith in him, we will not be able to overcome God's will.
36 posted on 03/18/2013 5:15:01 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Gumdrop

well said! another analogy I use is someone who constantly mocks and ridicules a neighbor and acts as if he doesn’t even exist. Then his house catches fire and he believes he is entitled to come and live inside in his neighbor’s house. Not a perfect analogy but you get the idea.

These people don’t believe in heaven but think everyone is entitled to go there if it does exists. Man-centered thinking by someone who really hasn’t given the matter much thought.


37 posted on 03/18/2013 5:18:52 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: demshateGod
God knew, yes (and by His knowing, predestined since God cannot have wrong knowledge).

The call goes out to everyone (free offer of the Gospel).

God's people respond. Those who do not are left to perish in their sins but nonetheless culpable as per Luke 12:47: "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."

Election isn't to give fear to God's people but rather comfort. Nonetheless, the doctrine is justly terrifying to those who hear and harden themselves. Take comfort, therefore, if you are shaken by the awesome majesty of our King's sovereignty in election that you, too, are numbered among His elect if you are in Christ Jesus.

38 posted on 03/18/2013 5:31:24 PM PDT by Lexinom
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To: Gumdrop
That false and ultimately futile security gives them a comfort they cannot otherwise find.

God as described in Scripture is awesome and terrible, not someone we should desire to experience naked in our own sin because alas, we would be consumed. Only the white garment of Christ's righteousness can and the cleansing of the Holy Ghost can prepare us to meet God.

A prominent theologian once made the salient point that we cannot find God for the same reason a robber cannot find a policeman.

39 posted on 03/18/2013 5:35:16 PM PDT by Lexinom
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To: nonsporting
(...Most choose not to come.)

(They choose not to come)

(...most choose not to.)

(Most resist....)

How can a corpse choose to do anything? Until we are regenerated, we can do NOTHING on our own. From esvbible.org:

" And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

(Ephesians 2:1-10 ESV)"

"... you were dead in trespasses and sins...."

"But God...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ...."

Before we are made regenerate, we can ONLY "choose" death; it's not until God makes us alive in Christ -- by HIS grace and power, not by anything in or of us, otherwise we would be able to boast--that we are saved.

I like this one:

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

(Romans 8:28-30 ESV)"

Hoss

40 posted on 03/18/2013 5:44:07 PM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“No man can overpower God. “

Duh! However, if God allows man to choose - as hundreds of verses say - then by God’s will, man may choose.


41 posted on 03/18/2013 5:56:32 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (America is becoming California, and California is becoming Detroit. Detroit is already hell.)
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To: Lexinom

Thats right. Amen.


42 posted on 03/18/2013 5:58:00 PM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: Mr Rogers
That's a fairly lengthy treaties and commentary. I'd like to take issue with a couple of points:

(3) Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23; see Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, [Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers]). This was true already of Israel in the OT (see Dt 29:18-21, note; 2Ki 21:14, note; see article on God’s Covenant with the Israelites, p. 298).

Romans 9:13, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." As we move onto verse 17, we read the following: " 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

Are we then to assume these are mere allegories? Jesus answers this for us in John 6:44: "No one can come to me except the Father that sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day."

(4) The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remains conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with him. Paul demonstrates this as follows. (a) God’s eternal purpose for the church is that we should “be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgiveness of sins (1:7) and to the church’s purity as the bride of Christ. God’s elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (see Ro 8:14; Gal. 5:16-25). The apostle repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (see Eph 2:10; 3:14-19; 4:1-3, 13-24; 5:1-18). (b) Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will “present her to himself as a radiant church…holy and blameless” (Eph 5:27). (c) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4) only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this clearly: Christ will “present you holy in his sight without blemish…if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel” (Col 1:22-23).

Holy living is the fruit of salvation, not its root. We read in Jeremiah 17:9 about the unrighteousness of all - apart from Spirit-wrought justification. We see, furthermore, our own great shortfalls as we measure ourselves against the Law (the 10 Commandments), and must cry out to God for mercy, which gracious pardon can be had by the truly repentant through Christ's merit. This is the norm for the Christian life, the cycle of sin and repentance, with the Spirit working sanctification in the saints even as they themselves seem to themselves to become more and more odious.

So you see we cannot simply apply all the verses on election to "the church" without recognizing that she is the whole of all of the elect people, and that the chain of salvation described in Romans 8:29-30 is for the individual believer.

43 posted on 03/18/2013 5:58:15 PM PDT by Lexinom
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To: nonsporting
They choose not to come, of course, because this is the default response of the unregenerate person. Lazarus could not choose to come forth from the tomb.

Consider all of these through the lens of "seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not understand."

44 posted on 03/18/2013 6:03:04 PM PDT by Lexinom
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To: PieterCasparzen

The scripture is repleate with examples of people doing things God didn’t want them to do. God’s will is not thwarted by poeple rejecting Him, because it’s His will that we have a choice. God desinged us to walk with Him by choice. That was the purpose of putting the tree in the garden. Once we chose, we are predestined to be comformed into His image.


45 posted on 03/18/2013 6:03:22 PM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: demshateGod
But you can’t deny that God’s purpose through Isaiah was Israel’s salvation.

That is not what Isaiah 6 states. God's purpose through Isaiah was to harden their hearts so they wouldn't come to Him. But God in His mercy and grace is gracious enough to save a remnant.

The whole book is God begging Israel to get right.

God doesn't beg. God loves. Man doesn't seek God. Man rebels against this love. Destruction is decreed for all but a remnant.

This is the story of man. We saw the same thing when God wouldn't allow Adam and Eve to eat of the Tree of Life. We saw it again with Noah and the flood. We saw it with the tower of Babel. And the rebellion of Israel in the wilderness with Moses. On and on. The whole book of Judges in this constant dynamic; God saves, man rebels. Paul tells us now God has hardened the hearts of the Jews until time time of the Gentile is complete (Romans 9).

We have a highly inflated value of self-worth. The only reason any of us are saved is because God is exceptually patience and loving to us by which He extends His grace. He doesn't beg us to come to Him. He acts aggressively to save His elect by His will. And those of us who are saved are saved ONLY because He so decreed it just like the remnant of Isaiah's time.


46 posted on 03/18/2013 6:08:52 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: demshateGod
I remember years ago when I was studying theology a useful term, "free agency": I can choose this color of socks or that. I can choose this sin or that sin, but my unregenrate heart is sinful by its nature and will not go against said nature.

This is distinguished from free will, whereby man, who is dead in sins and trespasses, is said to be able to choose life sans a sovereign act of grace in the form of regeneration. No, the latter must precede that choice, and God receives the glory.

47 posted on 03/18/2013 6:11:17 PM PDT by Lexinom
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To: Lexinom

Romans 9:13, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

That came from Malachi, not Genesis. Was it addressed to individuals, or nations? Were the Jews, the Chosen People, chosen as individuals or as a nation?

And as Romans 1 teaches, those who choose to reject God will be rejected by God and hardened:

“18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”

“We see, furthermore, our own great shortfalls as we measure ourselves against the Law (the 10 Commandments), and must cry out to God for mercy, which gracious pardon can be had by the truly repentant through Christ’s merit.”

Of course. That has nothing to do with corporate election. If you are IN CHRIST, then it is God’s Will to see you brought to the far shore - but also his will for you to live a changed life. There is no saving grace that doesn’t result in a changed life. But if you are in Christ, then

“...God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...”

Still, Hebrews warns us:

“4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.”

Also see:

http://evangelicalarminians.org/files/Abasciano.%20Clearing%20Up%20Misconceptions%20about%20Corporate%20Election.%20ATJ.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,0,792


48 posted on 03/18/2013 6:15:12 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (America is becoming California, and California is becoming Detroit. Detroit is already hell.)
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To: HossB86

“How can a corpse choose to do anything?”

Are we ‘dead in sin?
Jhn 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
1Pe 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

Anything else? Slaves or bondservants
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Rom 6:20 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

Blind
Mat 23:16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’
Mat 23:17 “You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred?
Mat 23:19 “You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
Mat 23:24 “You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
Mat 23:26 “You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
Luk 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
Rom 2:19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

Other
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
1Jo 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Mat 9:12 But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
Mar 2:17 And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Phl 2:15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,


BTW - in the tale of the Prodigal Son, the father calls his son “dead”? Did this mean totally alienated, or dead?

Are sick people dead? Are blind people dead? Are slaves dead?

All need rescue, but saying that we are dead and thus incapable of responding to God’s call is to ignore a lot of scripture.


49 posted on 03/18/2013 6:19:30 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (America is becoming California, and California is becoming Detroit. Detroit is already hell.)
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To: Mr Rogers
I think there is ample evidence in Scripture to support God choosing the individuals, the means, and the ends. Yes, He can and does choose nations. He chose Israel as the vessel for His Christ, whom she rejected and crucified yet according to his will. He blessed and cursed other nations through varying decrees (cf the Amalekites). He does this with individuals. They become proud and bring down His displeasure (Hezekiah comes to mind).

I think there is evidence, furthermore, to bolster the notion of free-agency by unregenerate man (who acts according to his nature just as a sow returns to her wallowing in the mud) working as part of God's plan. God does not cause sin (the very thought of which is blasphemy), but He most certainly uses the actions of sinners (per Romans 8:28), the ebbing and flowing of history to effect His grander plan which, in the end, is His own glory.

It is an awesome play, this thing we call history ("His story"), and insofar as we are not privy to His will, we don't know the ending or even what tomorrow holds but are left to marvel at His unfathomable wisdom.

50 posted on 03/18/2013 6:28:03 PM PDT by Lexinom
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