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Two popes, two Palm Sundays (a visual contrast)
The Deacon's Bench ^ | March 24, 2013 | Deacon Greg Kandra

Posted on 03/24/2013 2:39:36 PM PDT by NYer

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1 posted on 03/24/2013 2:39:36 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Fascinating! Notice especially the dramatic difference in chasuble of Msgr. Guido Marini, the Master of Papal Ceremonies.


2 posted on 03/24/2013 2:41:34 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer

Good grief. Are we now going to emphasize outward appearances?

What is the dramatic difference between the two popes? Either one serves the same Triune God in the manner he sees most appropriate.

More or less lace on a chasuble not a solemnity make.


3 posted on 03/24/2013 2:54:51 PM PDT by 353FMG ( I do not indicate whether I am serious or sarcastic -- I respect FReepers too much.)
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To: NYer

As much as I like the traditional style, I don’t necessarily mind Francis’ simplicity either. What I can’t stand is when priests act as showmen, i.e. flashy inappropriate robes


4 posted on 03/24/2013 2:59:46 PM PDT by SMCC1
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To: NYer

Please declare that priests can marry! He can do it. Just look to the first pope Peter, who had a sick mother in law!!


5 posted on 03/24/2013 3:19:24 PM PDT by RushingWater
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To: 353FMG
Good grief. Are we now going to emphasize outward appearances?

NO! There are several web blogs where members are bemoaning the loss of the traditionalist papal robes, et al. FWIU, Msgr. Marini assisted Pope Benedict in his shift towards adopting and restoring certain papal garments that had fallen into disuse, such as the Saternalia hat.

Posters at these blogs are cringing at the sight of our new Holy Father minus the red mozzetta and shoes. It was simply an observation, not an obsession.

6 posted on 03/24/2013 3:19:36 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: 353FMG; NYer
>> What is the dramatic difference between the two popes? Either one serves the same Triune God in the manner he sees most appropriate. More or less lace on a chasuble not a solemnity make. <<

I don't see a "dramatic difference" either. They're dressed 95% alike in the two photos.

7 posted on 03/24/2013 3:21:41 PM PDT by BillyBoy ( Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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To: RushingWater
Please declare that priests can marry! He can do it.

Yes he can. But, what would Jesus do?

"there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

8 posted on 03/24/2013 3:23:35 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: BillyBoy

The lace in the first picture (with Pope Benedict) is “Oh my goodness gracious, Maybelle. I haven’t seen anything like that since the Firestone girl’s wedding! I know what that cost, because I was at the fabric store when they special-ordered it from France. France! And her in white, too, when my mama told me her hairdresser said ...”

The lace in the second picture is, “Pretty nice. Good ironing job.”


9 posted on 03/24/2013 3:27:05 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
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To: NYer

Never understood why the Vatican loves gold and intricate figures and statues and everything. I’ve always thought of the Vatican and the “people” within as being very vain.

The pope lives like royalty, and they worship images of Mary.
Mary is not God. Jesus is.


10 posted on 03/24/2013 3:27:36 PM PDT by FreedomStar3028
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To: RushingWater
Please declare that priests can marry! He can do it.

No, he cannot. Priests cannot get married in any orthodox Christian church.

11 posted on 03/24/2013 3:28:36 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
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To: BillyBoy

Perhaps, you and I are not as fashion concious as some of our more sophisticated FReepers.

I am an old man who fondly remembers the pre-Vatican II Mass with all its oppulence and Gregorian chant. In fact, I can still serve at a Tridentine Mass but my arthritic knees would prevent me to kneel on bare marble while I recite the beautiful introductory prayers at the foot of the Altar.


12 posted on 03/24/2013 3:33:46 PM PDT by 353FMG ( I do not indicate whether I am serious or sarcastic -- I respect FReepers too much.)
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To: FreedomStar3028; Tax-chick; NYer
>> they worship images of Mary. Mary is not God. Jesus is. <<

Actually, we don't worship images of Mary, but thanks for visiting this thread to chime with the protestant perspective of the papacy.

I'll be sure to return the favor and visit a protestant thread. You can hear our opinions about what we think of protestants claiming they can read God's mind and "know" they've been instantly "saved".

13 posted on 03/24/2013 3:38:33 PM PDT by BillyBoy ( Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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To: All
An example of this Catholic hater's "Christian" love and compassion: (joined February, 2013)

Claim: Aurora Shooting Suspect Now Muslim
Thu 21 Mar 2013 09:05:50 PM PDT · 18 of 26
FreedomStar3028 to ogen hal

Neutron bomb them all

But the pope has a nice robe so he's the bad guy.

14 posted on 03/24/2013 3:40:43 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not NurtureĀ™)
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To: NYer


15 posted on 03/24/2013 3:42:25 PM PDT by Bratch
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To: RushingWater

Jesus, John the Baptist, John and Paul were not married. Peter was most likely married before he ever met Jesus. Not going to happen anytime soon.


16 posted on 03/24/2013 3:42:34 PM PDT by NotTallTex
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To: Bratch
Beautiful inscription behind Pope Benedict, but I don't quite get the last bit.

"Christ defends his people from every apple."

The Bible doesn't say that the forbidden fruit eaten by Adam and Eve was an apple--that's just a popular tradition.

17 posted on 03/24/2013 3:51:02 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: FreedomStar3028
Never understood why the Vatican loves gold and intricate figures and statues and everything.

Neither does my step father. See Exodus 25:18–20. Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

I’ve always thought of the Vatican and the “people” within as being very vain.

You're not alone. It is a common misperception. Can you specify why you feel this way?

The pope lives like royalty

Again, a misconception. The pope gives up all personal goods and resides in the papal apartments. Following the death (or, in this case) the retirement of a pope, the apartments are sealed until a new pontiff is elected. When Pope Francis was shown the apartment, his reaction was similar to yours. While no official statement has yet been made, it has been mentioned that he plans to live elsewhere in a more humble setting.

they worship images of Mary.

Catholics venerate Mary. We do not worship her. Hyperdulia or super veneration is given to only one created being, and that is the Blessed Virgin Mary. It shows that Mary, the Mother of God, is so highly blessed and endowed by God that she stands alone in her class. She is above all the angels and all the Saints. She is the Mother of God.

18 posted on 03/24/2013 3:54:31 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer
"Catholics venerate Mary. We do not worship her." Word Origin & History – venerate 1620s, from L. veneratus, pp. of venerari "to reverence, worship" (see veneration). Related: Venerated, venerating. Origin: 1615–25; < Latin venerātus, past participle of venerārī to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere, verbal derivative of vener-, stem of venus, presumably in its original sense “desire”; see Venus)
20 posted on 03/24/2013 4:32:51 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a Tea Party descendant...steeped in the Constitutional Republic given to us by the Founders.)
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To: RushingWater

THE priests are married to the church....if you don’t like that there are LOTS of other Christian churches.

I wish people would quit trying to remake the Catholic church or remake our country!


21 posted on 03/24/2013 4:33:09 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Go Galt!)
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To: FreedomStar3028

Thank you for your kind response.


22 posted on 03/24/2013 4:34:43 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: BillyBoy

freedom Star is a troll and the other Brilliant Catholic theologins merely snipe at Catholics...just being in THEIR Christian churches is just not enough...they want to remake Catholocism.Yeesh.


23 posted on 03/24/2013 4:35:27 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Go Galt!)
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To: FreedomStar3028; NYer

24 posted on 03/24/2013 4:36:04 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Behold, all generations will call me Blessed." - Blessed Virgin Mary)
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To: 353FMG

God bless you, friend. :)


25 posted on 03/24/2013 4:40:23 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer

Both have their ways. God bless them.


26 posted on 03/24/2013 4:41:06 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

Thank you, thank U.

He does, daily and profusely.


27 posted on 03/24/2013 4:43:44 PM PDT by 353FMG ( I do not indicate whether I am serious or sarcastic -- I respect FReepers too much.)
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To: 353FMG

:) You’re very kind.


28 posted on 03/24/2013 4:44:57 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: RushingWater

It doesn’t mean he had a live wife though. Truly, we don’t really know but I don’t imagine that Jesus would choose a man to abandon his wife and follow Him. Marriage is a sacrament and it is so because Jesus made it clear how important it was.


29 posted on 03/24/2013 4:47:10 PM PDT by tiki
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To: RushingWater
Actually, Peter was either a married man or a widower at the time he became an Apostle. Not t'other way around. He did not becdome an Apostle and then get married.

Matrimony ---> then ---> Holy Orders (priest): yes (sometimes)

Holy Orders (priest) ---> then ---> Matrimony: no (never)

In the same way, in the Catholic Churh there are married men who have become priests (usually in one of the non-Latin Churches, or possibly priest-converts from Anglicanism) --- but nobody who is a priest, first, can THEN get married and continue to serve as a priest.

It has always been in this way, in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, going back to the time of the Apostles.

30 posted on 03/24/2013 4:50:29 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Behold, all generations will call me Blessed." - Blessed Virgin Mary)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Well said, Mrs. D.


31 posted on 03/24/2013 4:52:51 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: BillyBoy

You are crazy. There is a big difference. Per the pictures, the new pope walks next to way more black people.


32 posted on 03/24/2013 4:53:38 PM PDT by nitzy (You can avoid reality but you can't avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.)
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To: Verginius Rufus

Every apple... That’s funny.

Remember the Lord’s prayer. “... Sed libera nos a malo”

Malo is evil.


33 posted on 03/24/2013 4:58:01 PM PDT by mwilli20 (BO. Making communists proud all over the world.)
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To: FreedomStar3028

>Mary is not God. Jesus is.<

.
Very astute observation.

In total sync with the teachings of the RCC.
Take time and do research what the RCC’s teachings are of Mary and the saints. Don’t remain stuck in your misinformed observations of the Catholic Church.


34 posted on 03/24/2013 4:59:02 PM PDT by 353FMG ( I do not indicate whether I am serious or sarcastic -- I respect FReepers too much.)
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To: NYer

I have loved JPII and Benedict XVI and I think I will love this new pope, Francis as well.

May God bless him as much as I believe He has blessed us with Francis.


35 posted on 03/24/2013 5:06:31 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea
Word Origin & History – venerate 1620s, from L. veneratus, pp. of venerari "to reverence, worship"

As noted above, the proper terminology is dulia.

dulia [ˈdjuːlɪə]

n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) (Christianity / Eastern Church (Greek & Russian Orthodox)) the veneration accorded to saints in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Churches, as contrasted with hyperdulia and latria
[from Medieval Latin: service, from Greek douleia slavery, from doulos slave]

dulia
the devotion, veneration, or respect accorded saints.
See also: Catholicism, Saints
36 posted on 03/24/2013 5:23:54 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: FreedomStar3028; NYer
"I’ve always thought of the Vatican and the “people” within as being very vain."

Are you familiar with the USMC? Then this should help you understand why the "vanity" thing is a misconception. A cleric's vesments are not a personal fashion statement, any more than a Marine's Dress Blues.

It's the official clothing of office and ceremony, not a private caprice.

37 posted on 03/24/2013 5:24:52 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("A saint wears the gold on the outside for the people; and the sackcloth on the inside, for his own.)
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To: FreedomStar3028; NYer
My friends, you may enjoy this from the wonderful G.K. Chesterton:

"Becket wore a hair shirt under his gold and crimson, and there is much to be said for the combination; for Becket got the benefit of the hair shirt while the people in the street got the benefit of the crimson and gold. It is at least better than the manner of the modern millionaire, who has the black and the drab outwardly for others, and the gold next his heart."

38 posted on 03/24/2013 5:29:35 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("There never was anything so perilous or so exciting as orthodoxy." G.K. Chesterton)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea; NYer
There is a legitimate distinction, though, between "venerate" and "adore." You could say (just cut-and-pasting these quotes at random)

Eetcetera. Its general meaning is to honor as a valued person, not to adore as the Supreme Being.

The Commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother" encourages veneration in this sense --- not in the sense of ancestor-worship.

39 posted on 03/24/2013 5:43:53 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("There never was anything so perilous or so exciting as orthodoxy." G.K. Chesterton)
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To: BillyBoy
I'll be sure to return the favor and visit a protestant thread.

I don't get the amusement value of going onto threads and telling other people what they believe.

But on lthe other hand, most people aren't that interested in styles of lace, so ...

40 posted on 03/24/2013 6:02:50 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
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To: Verginius Rufus

It doesn’t say anything about apples. “An omni malo” = “from every evil”.


41 posted on 03/24/2013 6:19:36 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: mwilli20
So the Lord's prayer is not about eating bread rather than fruit?

Malum with a long "a" means "apple" (or sometimes another kind of fruit).
Malum with a short "a" means "evil" or "harm."

A little learning is a dangerous thing, to quote a fallible Pope.

42 posted on 03/24/2013 6:20:31 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: 353FMG
Odd how often how some "conservative Christians" are on the same page as the democrat media machine.

This article is interesting, but not because of the differences in the ceremonies. It's interesting because people who migrate in massive herds to whatever "church" best reflects the current secular society and trendy "style of worship" whether that's a gymnasium with pews or a coffee shop clone, claim they're authorities on what surroundings and ceremonies are appropriate when we come together to worship God Almighty, Alpha and Omega, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

Obviously the convenient spirits hanging from trees like Spanish Moss have been informing the Self Alone crowd that the Bible is in error on yet another topic and that God never really dictated that the Jewish Temple be beautiful and impressive inside and out.

So, showing God all glory and honor possible is out, and lounging on sofas and in recliners with the cross dressing crowd is now the "in" form of worship. At least that's what the democrat media who critique the Pope and the Church say, so naturally that's what the "conservative Christian" folks who just happen to echo whatever the democrat media machine is pumping out at the moment say as well.

Either that or a who lot of people who each worship their own, "Most High and Holy Self" have no idea what glory, honor, and reverence mean, much less worship.

43 posted on 03/24/2013 6:25:40 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Tax-chick
I’m wondering if the guy with Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI forgot to turn off his cellphone or what. Why is he digging in his pocket in that picture? It’s not like there’s a little fritter around extorting him out of another Lifesaver in return for silence.
44 posted on 03/24/2013 6:28:00 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: NYer
Notice especially the dramatic difference in chasuble of Msgr. Guido Marini, the Master of Papal Ceremonies.

A chasuble is worn by the celebrant of Mass. The servers and masters of ceremonies wear a surplice or rochet over their cassock.

45 posted on 03/24/2013 6:43:54 PM PDT by ELS
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To: NotTallTex

We don’t really know about Paul but, considering he was a pharisee, it’s a safe bet to assume that he was married.


46 posted on 03/24/2013 6:45:41 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus; NotTallTex
We don’t really know about Paul but, considering he was a pharisee, it’s a safe bet to assume that he was married.

On the contrary. Paul was not married. He actually endorsed celibacy for those capable of it: "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion" (1 Corinthians 7:8-9).

47 posted on 03/24/2013 7:29:25 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer

Perhaps, but we know that he said “men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee” (Acts 23:6) and that Pharisees were required to get married. Did his wife died? Was she left behind in Jerusalem while he went on his trips?


48 posted on 03/24/2013 7:49:33 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: NYer
Clearly St. Paul was unmarried at the time he wrote the first letter to the Corinthians.

Conceivably he had been married at some point and his wife had died, although there is no evidence for that. I think it is more likely that he never was married, but I don't think we can rule out his being a widower.

When he tells Titus that a bishop should be the husband of one woman, I would take that as excluding men who had remarried after their first wife died.

49 posted on 03/24/2013 7:52:56 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Former Fetus

Were Pharisees required to marry by a certain age? We don’t know how old St. Paul was when he had his conversion experience. It’s possible that he was very young at that time and planning to marry when he got a little older, but that his conversion caused him to drop those plans in order to devote himself entirely to spreading the gospel.


50 posted on 03/24/2013 7:57:04 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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