Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

De-Converting Mormons [From an ex-Mormon]
Ex-Mormon.org ^ | March 24, 2013 | Ex-Cult Member

Posted on 03/24/2013 7:29:58 PM PDT by Colofornian

(This was actually a reply to another thread but thought I'd re-post it as its own thread)

I think I was at least partially responsible for approximately 10 friends and my entire family (parents & siblings).

I may have lucked out but some things to note that I think helped me was:

1) I never came across as angry or bitter. I was always nice, friendly and self assured (but not arrogant or condescending)

2) They all knew I was a "good" Mormon so they were all very curious as to why I left when it wasn't because of being offended or sinning.

3) I did my research. I studied up on all the issues both pro & anti. I was able to intelligently convey to them the historical/doctrinal problems with Mormonisim that they weren't aware of.

4) I made it clear to them to them that it wasn't me trying to find an excuse to leave the church but my SINCERE desire for absolute truth which led me out. I started out reading anti books on my mission so that I would know how to DEFEND the church, but I gradually realized that most of the stuff was actually true and that the church couldn't really be defended. My eyes gradually were opened to the fact that the church may not be what it claimed to be.

5) I NEVER ARGUED with them about the issues with the church. I would share the information I learned, give my opinion, but never got in any kind of heated debate or let emotions get in the way. If they came up with some rebuttal, I would give mine and just say "I guess this is just how I see it." If they engage me long enough just the info I provide to them would begin to sink in even if they wouldn't admit it the time. Deep down they knew the things I was saying about the church couldn't be defended. I never "railed" against the church. I explained what things "bothered" me and made me "question" things, but I never came off as "attacking" the church. I would never use the word "cult." I would never call the leaders of the church names. I never used words like "evil." For example I would say something something like,

"I was very troubled by the fact that Joseph Smith would marry young girls and wives of other men. It just doesn't make sense TO ME why God would command this or tolerate it. I PERSONALLY don't believe this is something God would sanction."

instead of saying,

"Joseph Smith was a lying two timing adulterer and pedophile!"

In talking with Mormons, you have to start out slowly with them. You have to soften your words. Be careful not to put them on the defensive. Do NOT make it so they feel like they have to defend the church.

Once they start to grasp the magnitude of the problems, THEN you can start "telling it like it is." You just have to be careful to not come across as too "anti."

6) I never forced my beliefs or knowledge about the church on them. If they wanted to talk, I would share it with them, but I wouldn't "force my anti-Mormonism" on them. I was open and honest about what I believed, but only when they brought it up.

As many posters here have stated before, Mormons generally have to be "ready" for the truth. Many of my friends or family were active TBM's but they were struggling internally with some aspect of Mormonism, so they were more open to talking about the church and it ended up being easier for them to transition out (than say other more entrenched Mormons).

For the entrenched Mormons (I was actually one of them), they have to have the willingness to FULLY study the historical/doctrinal issues. Sharing with them, in just conversation, some "tidbits" of truth probably won't budge them, if they are hardcore. They would need to actually take the TIME and sit down and do some research and read about ALL the problems about the church. However most uber TBM's will get scared after a few pages and stop researching. Just a couple anti-Mormon arguments will merely put a dent in their armor, but if they are ACTUALLY willing to sit down and read a book like The Changing World of Mormonism by the Tanners, then I'd say they actually have very high probability of de-converting.


TOPICS: Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: deconvertingmormons; exmormon; inman; lds; mormonism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-179 next last
From the forum: I think I was at least partially responsible for [bringing out] approximately 10 friends and my entire family (parents & siblings)...some things to note that I think helped me was: 1) I never came across as angry or bitter. I was always nice, friendly and self assured (but not arrogant or condescending) 2) They all knew I was a "good" Mormon so they were all very curious as to why I left when it wasn't because of being offended or sinning. 3) I did my research. I studied up on all the issues both pro & anti. I was able to intelligently convey to them the historical/doctrinal problems with Mormonisim that they weren't aware of. 4) I made it clear to them to them that it wasn't me trying to find an excuse to leave the church but my SINCERE desire for absolute truth which led me out. I started out reading anti books on my mission so that I would know how to DEFEND the church, but I gradually realized that most of the stuff was actually true and that the church couldn't really be defended. My eyes gradually were opened to the fact that the church may not be what it claimed to be.
1 posted on 03/24/2013 7:29:58 PM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

“but i never could a done it without the help of pope ‘ima quitter’ benedict”


2 posted on 03/24/2013 7:36:24 PM PDT by bigheadfred
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bigheadfred

If you can de-convert a Mormon, then they weren’t a Mormon in the first place. A testimony is a personal revelation from God, not from some slick salesman. If a slick salesman got to somebody, they didn’t have a testimony at all.


3 posted on 03/24/2013 7:51:12 PM PDT by District13 (Obama scares me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: bigheadfred
but i never could a done it without the help of pope ‘ima quitter’ benedict”.

I don't understand this remark? Are you disparaging Benedict? If so why?

4 posted on 03/24/2013 7:55:19 PM PDT by Katiana Kalashnikova
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: District13

On the contrary, the Mormon in question may very well have had this so called “revelation”, but as made very clear in the Holy Bible, evil will come in the guise of the light. Once exposed to the information and using the mind God gives us for discerning which spirits are true to his purpose and those distorting same our now free Mormon learned this “revelation” came from another source, not God.

The “Burning Bosom” was heart burn, just not gastrointestinal...


5 posted on 03/24/2013 8:01:11 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: bigheadfred

““but i never could a done it without the help of pope ‘ima quitter’ benedict”

Huh?


6 posted on 03/24/2013 8:06:26 PM PDT by surroundedbyblue (Why am I both pro-life & pro-gun? Because both positions defend the innocent and protect the weak.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: District13
A testimony is a personal revelation from God, not from some slick salesman.

A testimony is nothing more than a WFF (i.e. warm fuzzy feeling). Every cult and false religion (JW's, Muslims, Hindus, Christian Scientists, etc.) has numerous adherents who will sincerely claim this type of personal revelation. Some even sacrifice their lives based on it. Obviously, they can't all be right.

That is one of several reasons why there can be no substitute for hard evidence. Period.

7 posted on 03/24/2013 8:14:25 PM PDT by Zakeet (Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage - Mencken)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22; Colofornian

ejonesie22,

Go ahead and deny/redicule the workings of Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost.

If you believe the Holy Ghost is ineffective .... I would argue that you really aren’t a Christian.

Can you be a Christian and ignorant of the Holy Ghost at the same time? ...I really don’t think so.

Christ promised the Holy Ghost to those who truly seek him.

I solemnly request that cease your blasphemy of the Holy Ghost and the testimony of Jesus Christ.


8 posted on 03/24/2013 9:09:31 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Zakeet

How can Christ’s greatest promise have no meaning to you?

Re-read the scriptures because the presence of the Holy Ghost and a witness of Jesus Christ go hand in hand.

It’s not a warm fuzy .... it is the essence of Christianity itself.


9 posted on 03/24/2013 9:12:19 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: District13
I was baptized Catholic and went thru all the sacraments, was in all the processions, wore the little lace on my head in the good old days, and went to All Catholic schools from kindergarten on up....

listen, even though I do not go to Mass much, and am very disenchanted with my religion, when you grow up in such an environment, its almost impossible to completely deny it....

I'm sure Mormons feel the same...afterall, its a culture thing too....all your early experiences and family experiences and all your friends when you were little centered around being Catholic...

10 posted on 03/24/2013 9:13:55 PM PDT by cherry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: cherry

Sorry Cherry

There is such a thing as revelation from God through the Holy Ghost.

As a LDS Mormon I’ve had probably a half dozen experiences where i know God approves of my service to him and my beliefs are acceptable to him.

Even in my most disinchanted phases of my 52 year life, I know that to deny those experiences that were a gift from God through the Holy Ghost, would exclude me from his kingdom.

Again I believe with all my heart the God the Father Lives, and that his Son, Jesus Christ is my reedemer through whom I can obtain salvation. Amen


11 posted on 03/24/2013 9:20:33 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: District13; teppe; ejonesie22; aMorePerfectUnion; Zakeet; All
If you can de-convert a Mormon, then they weren’t a Mormon in the first place. A testimony is a personal revelation from God, not from some slick salesman. If a slick salesman got to somebody, they didn’t have a testimony at all.

Of course, the "flip side" of my last post is this:

A very high % of the Mormons you encounter served a Mormon mission.

We need to note those 9 things I listed in my last post (post #12)... and then ask former and present Lds missionaries another question:

"Tell us, (ex?)Lds missionary...


"...since you encouraged countless people to 'pray about' the Book of Mormon & its supposedly 'accompanying testimony,'...


"...why did you ask them to pray about a book in which so many key aspects of the Mormon 'gospel' were missing...?"


"...isn't that an openly deceptive Lds missionary tactic of bait & switch?"


(Where they read & pray about select content -- & yet most of the most vital Mormon teachings within its 'gospel' are AWOL!)
14 posted on 03/24/2013 9:50:25 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Reading some other threads I know that you are not LDS anymore...what denomination do you now claim?


15 posted on 03/24/2013 9:51:48 PM PDT by DouglasKC
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: teppe; District13; ejonesie22; Zakeet; aMorePerfectUnion; All
...your opinion of the LDS Church

Teppe, did Joseph Smith falsely prophesy in D&C 20:8-9 & 27:5 when he declared that the Book of Mormon was the "fulness of the everlasting gospel"???

Or, is it that the Mormon church could "leave out" all these prime teachings as not being "gospel-worthy?"

16 posted on 03/24/2013 9:53:44 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

So since you have set yourself up as the final judge of all things Christian ....

What is your opinion of 2 Corinthians 12:2.

Where Paul talks about a man caught up into the third heaven?

Sounds surprisingly like LDS doctrine.


17 posted on 03/24/2013 9:54:43 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: DouglasKC
Reading some other threads I know that you are not LDS anymore...what denomination do you now claim?

#1...I was NEVER Lds...but I am a descendent of a polygamist leader within the Lds church.

#2...I am an Evangelical Protestant.

18 posted on 03/24/2013 9:55:02 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: teppe
STOP making this and other threads "about" individual Freepers. That is "making it personal."

Discuss the ISSUES all you want - not the posters.

20 posted on 03/24/2013 9:57:49 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
#1...I was NEVER Lds...but I am a descendent of a polygamist leader within the Lds church.

Are you saying you had no association with the LDS other than a distant relative used to be a member??

#2...I am an Evangelical Protestant.

That's kind of generic...do you attend a church or fellowship with a certain denomination?

21 posted on 03/24/2013 9:58:23 PM PDT by DouglasKC
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: teppe
What is your opinion of 2 Corinthians 12:2. Where Paul talks about a man caught up into the third heaven? Sounds surprisingly like LDS doctrine.

Thank you for asking, Teppe.

From a book by Ron Rhodes, Commonly Misunderstood Bible Verses, Harvest House, 2008, p. 234:

"Are there three heavens? The Bible refers to three different heavens. The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere (Job 35:5). The second heaven is the interstellar universe (Genesis 1:17; Deuteronomy 17:3). The third heaven is the ineffable and glorious dwelling place of God in all His glory (2 Corinthians 12:2). It is elsewhere called the heaven of heavens and the highest heaven (1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chronicles 2:6)."

22 posted on 03/24/2013 9:59:07 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: District13

“If you can de-convert a Mormon, then they weren’t a Mormon in the first place. A testimony is a personal revelation from God, not from some slick salesman. If a slick salesman got to somebody, they didn’t have a testimony at all.”


But the revelation of God is not an emotional warming of the heart, as in the Mormon “burning of the bosom.”

We know from scripture that the heart itself is very deceptive:

Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

God is a reasoning God, who calls us to understanding and repentance. Even though His logic is indeed higher than us, and His knowledge far greater and often incomprehensible, and His truths spiritually revealed, nevertheless these all take rational forms in our minds that have received them, and are not characterized by good feelings, but by awakened understanding.

Isa_1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

I call you to reason with me, to defend your religion’s claims, to deal honestly with the issues, not running from them with drive-by posts.

Where do you find polytheism in the scripture to justify Mormon belief? Do you know how one is actually saved according to the scriptures? Why do you deny the existence of hell as the scriptures teach them? Do you know that the Book of Abraham, which Smith claimed to translate word for word from the reformed Egyptian, has been translated by Egyptologists and has been found to be a standard Egyptian burial rite? Why is it Joseph Smith predicted New Jerusalem would be built by Mormons within his “generation” in Missouri, which not only was not built, but which contradicts the scripture which says that New Jerusalem will literally float down from heaven on a new Heaven and Earth at the end of the age?

Your soul is on the line, and these are not things you play with or fight over like we fight over politics or football teams. Come, let us reason together.


23 posted on 03/24/2013 10:04:17 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: DouglasKC
Are you saying you had no association with the LDS other than a distant relative used to be a member??

I have LOTS of current Lds relatives...PLENTY of associations with LDS -- both as CURRENT relatives; PAST relatives...and, yes, Lds friends & contacts!

That's kind of generic...do you attend a church or fellowship with a certain denomination?

Well, there's ALL kinds of Catholics...
Vatican-focused Catholics...non-Vatican focused Catholics...
Mary & saint-veneration Catholics...and non-Mary & saint-veneration focused Catholics...
Jesuit flavored Catholics...
Knights of Columbus Catholics...
Franciscan flavored Catholics...
Dominican flavored Catholics...
Paulists flavored Catholics...
Benedictine flavored Catholics...
Dozens of OTHER Catholic-orders flavored Catholics...
Liberal Democratic Catholics...
Etc etc etc...

And yet when FR posters "ID" themselves as "Catholic," we don't hear: "That's kind of generic...which brand of Catholicism do you most identify with?"

24 posted on 03/24/2013 10:05:25 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: teppe

“I solemnly request that cease your blasphemy of the Holy Ghost and the testimony of Jesus Christ.”


The Holy Ghost certainly does work within us, but He does not move us towards error. I solemnly request that you cease blaspheming our God Jesus Christ, calling Him just another creation, a product of Elohim and a mother Goddess on the planet Kolob.

If you refuse, please show me from the scriptures where it is we ought to believe in polytheism or deny Christ’s divinity?


25 posted on 03/24/2013 10:06:41 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Ok try this ....

Jesus Christ said that he was the “Son of God”.

I’m sorry if I take the Bible literally and you take it figuritively.


27 posted on 03/24/2013 10:08:53 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
I have LOTS of current Lds relatives...PLENTY of associations with LDS -- both as CURRENT relatives; PAST relatives...and, yes, Lds friends & contacts!

I had always assumed you used to be in the LDS church and had repudiated it. I guess I was wrong.

And yet when FR posters "ID" themselves as "Catholic," we don't hear: "That's kind of generic...which brand of Catholicism do you most identify with?"

Hey I was just curious. I've seen that you've started plenty of threads in the religion forum but I've never seen you espouse your own views. Do you attend or fellowship with any group?

28 posted on 03/24/2013 10:13:28 PM PDT by DouglasKC
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: teppe

“Sorry Cherry

There is such a thing as revelation from God through the Holy Ghost.

As a LDS Mormon I’ve had probably a half dozen experiences where i know God approves of my service to him and my beliefs are acceptable to him.


Really? Want to have a contest like Elijah had with the prophets of Baal? I have had many experiences where my God has moved mountains to answer my prayers, showing me beyond any doubt that the hand of God is on my life. Not because I am so good, though. In fact, quite the opposite. Not because of my “good service.” Indeed, my service is terrible. Not because I am so righteous. Indeed, I am a wretch. But because my God is so righteous, because my God is so good, because my God is Just and Faithful even when I am unjust and unfaithful. Such is the difference between my God and yours.

So, want to have a prayer war, you and I? To see which one of us believes in the Living God? Give the challenge, and I shall pray that God answers it, whatever it is.


29 posted on 03/24/2013 10:13:57 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: Colofornian; teppe

“What is your opinion of 2 Corinthians 12:2. Where Paul talks about a man caught up into the third heaven? Sounds surprisingly like LDS doctrine.
Thank you for asking, Teppe.

From a book by Ron Rhodes, Commonly Misunderstood Bible Verses, Harvest House, 2008, p. 234:

“Are there three heavens? The Bible refers to three different heavens. The first heaven is the earth’s atmosphere (Job 35:5). The second heaven is the interstellar universe (Genesis 1:17; Deuteronomy 17:3). The third heaven is the ineffable and glorious dwelling place of God in all His glory (2 Corinthians 12:2). It is elsewhere called the heaven of heavens and the highest heaven (1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chronicles 2:6).””


It’s worth noting that the Hebrew word for “heaven” itself literally means “the heights.” Thus, the “highest heights” would refer to heaven itself.


31 posted on 03/24/2013 10:18:41 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

OK here’s another answer to your earlier question...

John 17: 22

Christ is praying to God that all of his disciples may be one even as God and he (Christ) are one.

So stuff that in your nicene creed pipe and smoke it :)


32 posted on 03/24/2013 10:18:54 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: teppe
If Colofornian uses smear, inuendo, distortions and fabrications, why can’t I point that out?

Because that turns a theological discussion into a flame war.

Frequently in theological debate what one poster considers to be a fact, e.g. "Catholics worship Mary" another poster considers to be a damnable lie.

If you believe a statement is wrong, explain why without disparaging the other guy.

Discuss the message, not the messenger.

Click here for more guidelines to the Religion Forum.

33 posted on 03/24/2013 10:19:23 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I don’t particularly care about Ron Rhodes beliefs, but I do care about the Apostle Pauls.

Paul further described his understanding of the heavens in 1 Cor 15:40-43 By identifying the three heavens as the Celestian, Terrestial and Terrestial glories.

I don’t suppose that Mr. Rhodes made that correlation ... did he?


34 posted on 03/24/2013 10:23:16 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; District13; teppe; ejonesie22; aMorePerfectUnion; All
You focused on questions concerning the fullness of the gospel supposedly contained in the Book of Mormon ... and the fact that it is not.

Personally, I find it much more interesting and informative to examine contradictions among various Mormon scripture. For example, in this SOURCE. The author provides numerous clear-cut examples with links directly to Mormon Scripture. Some of the examples include:

One wonders how the Latter Day Saints can possibly claim that their holy writings are divinely inspired and therefore unimpugnable when, in fact, they impugn each other.

35 posted on 03/24/2013 10:24:08 PM PDT by Zakeet (Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage - Mencken)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: teppe

“Ok try this ....

Jesus Christ said that he was the “Son of God”.

I’m sorry if I take the Bible literally and you take it figuritively.”


Well, I’m sorry that your exegesis of scripture consists of a single phrase. I actually do believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He’s also the second member of the trinity, as the scripture calls Him “Immanuel,” God with us:

Isa_7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

We are told quite explicitly that Christ is the Word, and the Word is both with God and is God. And that He created the heavens and the Earth, which we are told is what God did in the Old Testament:

Joh 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gen_1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

We also know that there is only one God, so Jesus cannot be a second God.

Isa_44:8 ... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

So, you’re move, Kimosabi.


36 posted on 03/24/2013 10:24:31 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: bigheadfred

Wow, second post bashes Catholics.

I think this has to be a record.


38 posted on 03/24/2013 10:30:21 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Did you get my response regarding John 17:22?

Christ wanted his Apostles to be one .... even as he and God were one?

So according your definition there must be one apostle in twelve and twelve apostles in one .... but never at any time only one, but never at any time only twelve .... neither dividing the substance ..... nor combining the substance ..... repeat ad nausem


39 posted on 03/24/2013 10:35:26 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

You should read what Tertullian said about John 1:1-3 in “Against Praexeus”

In fact read the whole thing. Obviously Tertullian wouldn’t have survivied the execution purge the Theodosius established in the Eddict of Thessalonioca.


40 posted on 03/24/2013 10:39:05 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: teppe

“Paul further described his understanding of the heavens in 1 Cor 15:40-43 By identifying the three heavens as the Celestian, Terrestial and Terrestial glories.

I don’t suppose that Mr. Rhodes made that correlation ... did he?”


Are you just going to repeat the same thing again in response to someone else? Paul speaks nothing of the Mormon heavens.

1Co 15:39-43 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. (40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. (42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Notice the context is on the difference between our bodies now and the resurrection bodies we shall have in the hereafter. It speaks nothing of three levels of Mormon heavens, nor does it even use the same terms as the LDS does.

When Paul speaks of going to the third heaven, it is according to the Jewish understanding, not the Mormon.

We know, first of all, that the word for “heaven” literally means heights in the Hebrew.

The first heaven is the Earth’s atmosphere:
Deut. 11:17 ... Then the LORD’s anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce.

Where the stars dwell is heaven:

Jeremiah 8:2 ... They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served.

And then the highest heaven. Literally ‘The Highest heights’:

1 Kings 8:27 — “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.
Deut. 10:14 — To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.

And it is worth noting that no unbeliever ever goes to heaven. All unbelievers go to hell, and only those in the book of the lamb dwell with God.

Mat 25:41-46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: (43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? (45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. (46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

According to your religion, there is no hell. Only three lesser glories of heaven, described by your prophets as being profoundly wonderful, yet the punishment is that these poor unbelievers will never get to become gods of their own planets.

The scripture declares that all those who are not with God, are against Him, and therefore these people are cast forever into the lake of fire where the smoke of their torment rises forever:

Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


41 posted on 03/24/2013 10:39:56 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: teppe

“Did you get my response regarding John 17:22?

Christ wanted his Apostles to be one .... even as he and God were one?

So according your definition there must be one apostle in twelve and twelve apostles in one .... but never at any time only one, but never at any time only twelve .... neither dividing the substance ..... nor combining the substance ..... repeat ad nausem”


It’s utterly irrelevant. Certainly, we are all members of the body of Christ. But that doesn’t change the scriptures that declare that Jesus calls Himself God, and has Godly titles. John 1 does not say that the Word and God are just “one” in purpose. It says that the Word is with God and the Word is God. It’s a definitive statement of identity. The scripture from Isaiah declares that Christ is God with us. That is not “one with purpose.” It is, very literally, God dwelling with us, God in the flesh, as it is the “son” of the virgin who is Immanuel. Unless you are arguing that John 17:22 says that we are ALL God, and can use God’s titles, it’s a silly argument to make.

And these are really only just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the scriptures which teach that there is only one God, and that Jesus, in fact, is God, and the creator of the universe.


42 posted on 03/24/2013 10:46:04 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

You claim that John 17:22 is irrelevant .... because it doesn’t support the Nicene Creed.

We believe that Christ had a pre-existence with God before he was Born.

Tertullian argues very well in “Against Praxeus” that God the Father pre-dated Christ and that God the Father is greater than Christ.

These were obviously the two items which Athenasias railed against Arius about during the Council of Nicea.

What if John 17:22 was a subtle truth that Christ intended to further develop the concept of his oneness with God?

Notice that I’m not going to Duet. or Isiah for my definition but just a few chapters later in the same book.

If John 17:22 is relevant .... than 1700 years of Christianity has been built on a fabrication.

It is my belief that this is what has happened.


44 posted on 03/24/2013 10:54:01 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: teppe; Colofornian; District13; ejonesie22; aMorePerfectUnion; All
[The] presence of the Holy Ghost and a witness of Jesus Christ go hand in hand. ... It’s not a warm fuzy .... it is the essence of Christianity itself.

The presence of the Holy Spirit did indeed inspire Holy Scripture. But we are commanded to: do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. [1 John 4:1]. The reasons are clearly stated in the passage; there are false prophets and false feelings of inspiration. Further, we are instructed to test the spirits against the Word of God (i.e. the Bible). A teaching is not true if it contradicts the Bible.

Turning to my original point that a person cannot know they are saved by praying to receive revelation ... something that Mormons refer to as a testimony ... I still maintain that this method is not valid. I base this on three reasons.

REASON #1: It can result in false answers.

As noted above, Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses believe they receive confirmation their faith is true through prayer and revelation. Are they not just as convinced they are right as you are? And as a Mormon, don't you reject their faiths? And doesn't this prove praying for revelation can result in false answers?

REASON #2: Mormon Church Leaders instructed me to examine the evidence, and to do this before I pray for revelation.

I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test … I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him … let every man and woman know themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates or not. This has been my exhortation continually. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 16:46, as cited by Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1950, pp. 129-130).

We are not so much concerned whether your thoughts are orthodox or heterodox as we are that you shall have thoughts … while all members should respect, support, and heed the teaching of the Authorities of the Church, no one should accept a statement and base his testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he has, under mature examination found it to be true and worthwhile; then his logical deductions may be confirmed by the spirit of revelation to his spirit because real conversion must come from within." (President Hugh B. Brown, a member of the LDS First Presidency, Dialog, Summer 1984, p. 15).

REASON #3: Praying for revelation is not valid is when we already have reliable information that answers a question.

For example, do you need to pray to find out how tall Mt. Everest is, or discover St. Louis is not the capital of the United States?

What can be accomplished in these cases through prayer? Is it possible for prayer to somehow invalidate the facts?

In consideration of the above, I maintain Mormon leaders have indeed given wise advice. I therefore prefer to examine evidence in lieu of praying in the hope of receiving a warm fuzzy feeling.
45 posted on 03/24/2013 10:54:39 PM PDT by Zakeet (Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage - Mencken)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Take a valuum. I mistyped.


46 posted on 03/24/2013 10:55:35 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: teppe

“You should read what Tertullian said about John 1:1-3 in “Against Praexeus”

In fact read the whole thing. Obviously Tertullian wouldn’t have survivied the execution purge the Theodosius established in the Eddict of Thessalonioca.”


Not that it matters, since the scripture plainly teaches the Trinity, but here is Tertullian affirming that there is only one God:

“As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian)

Obviously, the Trinity teaches that there is one God, “... but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence.”
- B.B. Warfield

This is also much different than Modalism, which is what Praxeus’s heresy was. Basically, that there is no trinity, just different “modes” of one God, with no distinction of personalities.

It looks like Tertullian is upholding the scripture on this matter.

FYI, besides the scriptures themselves, Ignatius, probably one of the earliest writers we have on these matters (he died about 97-115AD, a Bishop eaten by lions), affirms that Jesus Christ is God, not to mention all the other essential doctrines of Christianity, not to mention quoting heavily from the New Testament canon.


47 posted on 03/24/2013 10:56:30 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Zakeet

Sorry Zakeet, I don’t have time to analyze/reply to every one of your items .... I’m alittle outnumbered here.

But .... I maintain that Christ didn’t promote the Holy Ghost for nothing .....

If you think the Holy Ghost is useless .... then how could Jesus Christ have been so wrong?

.... or could it be that maybe, Jesus Christ was right and that ..... your doing something wrong by missing it?


48 posted on 03/24/2013 11:00:45 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: teppe

“You claim that John 17:22 is irrelevant ...”


Irrelevant to your argument, as it doesn’t address any of the scriptures, nor did you even explain how it is relevant to the scriptures that call Jesus God, and the creator. Your argument, as far as I can tell, is that “one with the Father” means “one in purpose,” rather than that Christ and the Father are one God. Yet the scriptures teach that Christ is God directly, and not just in purpose, though that is true also.


49 posted on 03/24/2013 11:00:47 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

If I’m not mistaken, that particular quote of yours from “Against Preaxeus” is thought to be a latter addition by an over Zealous Priest.

That particular quote is eerily similar to Nicene Creed langauge and is absent from most of the ancient surviving copies.

That quote is also at odds with the remainder of the book.

And i believe that that is why some 7th Century Pope excommunicated Tertullian.

Who knows ... it was probably that Pope’s scribe that made the edits. Kind of makes you wonder how much of the Bible they edited to reflect the Nicene Creed as well, huh?


50 posted on 03/24/2013 11:07:15 PM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-179 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson