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Why Not Hebraic Roots? The False Teachings of the Hebraic Roots Movement
The Way of the Tabernacle ^ | 3/23/13 | Dean Haskins

Posted on 03/25/2013 10:01:21 AM PDT by WayoftheTab

Why Not Hebraic Roots?

The False Teachings of the Hebraic Roots Movement

The burden I feel to write this article comes from a very personal journey that my wife and I have traveled, and actually, are still navigating. Having grown up in the mainstream evangelical church, I was thoroughly indoctrinated in its most common teachings and traditions. My wife, being reared in Roman Catholicism, was taught from a different perspective; but while much of the “works-based” beliefs that had been instilled in her were diametrically opposed to the “works-less” teachings of evangelicalism, there were still several similarities in general understandings and traditions.

My door into recognizing the multitudes of error that are embraced by most of what calls itself the “church” came through the simple tradition of the “Christ-mass.” Obviously, like most of the rest of the civilized world, this seemingly harmless family-oriented holiday was always a special time of the year for me, until, several years ago, something led me to dig a little into its origins and meanings (http://wayofthetabernacle.com/holydays1.htm), and the eventual illumination of the truth actually startled me at first. If what I had been taught about this was not true, then what else did I believe that wasn't so? It turned out that there were many such things. But, it wasn't until several years later that my wife started realizing the same things, and walked through that door, joining me on this journey.

Once we were united in the understanding that we weren't being given the whole truth from the “church,” we started searching for other like-minded believers from whom we could learn and with whom we could fellowship. I did some initial internet searching, and found a movement that proclaimed, quite loudly, the pagan error of Christ-mass and Easter, and also taught the importance of YHWH's Sabbaths (weekly and feast days), so we were immediately drawn to them. We also found some folks in our area who seemed to understand the same truths, so we all started meeting together. On the internet, we were drawn to the teachings of organizations like Passion for Truth Ministries and 119 Ministries (also known as testeverything.net).

Ultimately, after thoroughly examining the most-touted tenets of these HRM groups, we found them to be spreading gross error, and preaching a “different gospel.” I often find myself in conversations with some of their adherents on social media websites, and the brainwashing that has resulted from slick ad campaigns and catchy marketing slogans is not only immediately apparent with their followers, their false teachings appear to be spreading rampantly, and misleading many people.

During a particularly long online dialog, I began to feel an incredible burden for these folks, as there is obviously much confusion over the differences in their teachings and the Word, and it has become apparent that at least some of these people have placed their eternal security in the wrong things—and are not even familiar with that which is the basis of salvation.

This article is an effort to expose some of the methods of deception, and the most common false teachings of what has become known as the “Hebraic Roots Movement” (HRM).

Misinterpretation/Misapplication of Scripture

One of the most prevalent deceptive practices of the HRM is to misinterpret scripture deliberately, or to apply scripture in a way that distorts its real meaning. For example, as discussed here http://wayofthetabernacle.com/pigs_an_abomination.htm) and here (http://wayofthetabernacle.com/what_is_unclean.htm), the New Testament is clear that we are no longer under the dietary regulations that were part of the ceremonial laws of the old covenant; however, because that doesn't jibe with the HRM main teachings (that believers are still under the law), they purposely misinterpret several scriptures, and one of their blatant misapplications pertains to the vision the Apostle Peter received from YHWH in Acts 10 and 11.

As we know, Peter's vision was of many animals that had been classified as “unclean” for the Jews to eat under the ceremonial laws, and, in the vision, YHWH specifically told Peter to kill and eat. Peter protested, explaining that he had never eaten anything that the law called unclean, but YHWH told him not to call unclean that which He had made clean. In fact, because of Peter's disbelief, YHWH showed him the vision three times!

Of course, Peter later recounted the vision for others and stated that it meant that, even though he was a Jew, he was no longer to regard Gentiles as “off limits,” which is what the ceremonial laws had previously forced him to do.

Those in the HRM perform some incredible mental gymnastics with this one by contending that, after Peter realized the full meaning of the vision, he then somehow understood that YHWH was only kidding about His command to “kill and eat.” They state that the vision was only used as a metaphor, and that Peter knew that YHWH didn't mean for him to do what he was told to do. The most amazing aspect of their teaching on this is that there are people who actually believe their nonsense.

The message of the vision was clear to Peter—that the laws that had kept Jews and Gentiles separate had been removed. If there were no longer any legal prohibition against Jews mingling with Gentiles, then the laws forcing their separation could no longer be applied. The ceremonial laws, or that which determined clean vs. unclean, were spiritual in nature. That the law made certain foods “unclean” for Jews to eat didn't mean that the food was not fit for human consumption, but that disobedience defiled a person (or made him “unclean”). Once those laws were no longer, there was no such thing as “unclean” food. Those laws being abolished through Christ is the subject of Ephesians 2. To further demonstrate that being unclean (defiled) had nothing to do with the food itself, read Ezra 2:62, where “unclean” applied to a priest's lack of genealogical records. If “unclean, meant “unhealthy,” then that verse would be absurd. It was wholly a spiritual construct.

Furthermore, their teaching in this is easily shown to be false by Paul's rebuke of Peter in Galatians 2:11-21, for Peter had acted on the message of his vision, and had started eating with Gentiles in their homes (which was previously forbidden by the ceremonial laws) until some Jews, who had not yet properly apportioned Christ's work on Calvary, started condemning Peter's actions, and he withdrew from the Gentiles. Paul said that Peter had condemned himself because of his hypocrisy. That alone (even if there weren't other New Testament passages teaching this truth) thoroughly debunks this HRM tenet to be heresy, for if those laws had still applied, Paul would not have rebuked Peter for his hypocrisy, but for his breaking of the ceremonial laws.

Of course, those in the HRM have a difficult time with the Apostle Paul, as his teachings are contrary to their beliefs. Their attitudes about Paul range from an assertion that they are the only ones who truly understand him (even though it was the Jews of Paul's day, who had lived under the law of the old covenant, who had the most difficulty grasping the truths that Paul taught), to those who reject Paul's teachings as fraudulent—some going so far as to claim that Paul was “Satan in the flesh.” Not fully embracing the entirety of Paul's writings is an immediate indication that one embraces false teachings.

Changing the Very Words of Scripture

One of the most common marketing slogans of the HRM is the false teaching that the Messiah is the “Living Torah.” The reason this deception is effective is that, since the HRM seeks to keep people bound to the written law contained in what is known as the “Torah” (first five books of the Bible), equating that section of scripture with Christ essentially suggests that, if one rejects the notion that we are under that law, then he also rejects Christ to some degree.

But, by what method do they make this claim? They literally change a word in scripture itself. John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with YHWH, and the Word was YHWH.” John is speaking here of Christ (see: Revelation 19:13). So, the Word being Christ, the HRM asserts that the Torah is the earliest section of the scriptures, and the scriptures are referred to as the “Word,” so we can simply substitute “Word” with “Torah.” The problem is, that completely changes the actual word that is used in the verse. If the verse were talking about the written word, then “torah” could be an acceptable Hebrew word, and “rhema” would be its Greek equivalent.

However, the word John uses doesn't focus on the written word, or the subject of words at all, but on the speaker of the words. In the Greek, the word used is “logos,” and its Hebrew equivalent is “dabar.” So, to make their claim, they actually change scripture itself to fit their false teaching. This is discussed in greater depth here, but one additional fact that debunks their claims about Christ being the “Living Torah,” is their accompanying claim that He never broke the written law contained in the Torah. That assertion is demonstrably false, and so is their teaching on this.

Additionally, while I do not own a copy of their “Hebraic Roots Bible (copyright 1998),” I have had some who have tried to bolster their false claims by copying and pasting passages from that version on a few instances. In my recollection of the few passages that have been shared with me, I believe there was deception and error in every one of them.

Romans 6:14 states, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.” But, since not being under the law negates the whole “religion” of the HRM, their bible adds a parenthetical remark to muddle what is clearly said. It has, “. . . for you are not under the (penalty of breaking the) law.” They have to make sure that their adherents believe they are still under the law, even though that contradicts what Paul plainly teaches.

In Hebrews 10:16, we are told “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” In the Hebraic Roots Bible, “laws” is replaced by “Torah,” even though there is nothing in the text that refers to the first five books of the Bible. The verse is speaking of the Holy Spirit, and it tells how YHWH will make His will known to His children. By using the Hebrew word “torah,” one could understand it as His “instructions,” which would certainly not be unfaithful to the original text. However, capitalizing the word makes it a clear deception, as YHWH is not telling us that He will write the first five books of the Bible on our hearts and minds. This is a blatant perversion of YHWH's Word, but one that is used to try to keep people bound to that from which Christ has freed them.

I can only assume, based on the mountains of propaganda I've seen on the internet, and these examples, that there are probably many instances where the scriptural texts have been changed by their deliberate misuse of “Torah,” deceptively inserting it in place of the actual words that were used.

Revelation 22:14-15 describes two groups of people—those who have access to the New Jerusalem, which is the heavenly temple within the kingdom of heaven, and those who do not have access to it. A detailed explanation of these two groups can be found here (http://wayofthetabernacle.com/do_sinners_go_to_heaven.htm), but for our purposes, understand that what is described in these two verses occurs within the kingdom of heaven, and delineates those who have access to the temple, and those who must remain outside the gates of the temple—but they are all in heaven, as the devil, his demons, and the unbelievers have all been cast into the lake of fire by this point in Revelation.

Now, here's what we're told in those two verses: (14) Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. (15) Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

But, in the Hebraic Roots Bible, they have replaced the word “Outside” with “And not there.” So, they have completely changed what the verse states, and have taken those who scripture says will be in heaven, and have placed them elsewhere (or “not there”). Let me clarify it this way: if one speaks of those who are standing inside his house, and those who are standing outside his house, could those standing outside his house properly be defined as “not there”? This is just a deceptive little twisting that attempts to support their false teaching that one must “obey the Torah” to see heaven. That's not what scripture teaches.

Clinging to the Symbols and Rejecting the Real Substance

While most people easily recognize much of the symbolism in the Bible, the HRM misses a big one, and in so doing, they create a belief system that contradicts the message of the entire Word of YHWH. It is easy to understand the symbolism of something like the lamb that is part of the Passover Seder, and that our redemption is not in that, but in what it symbolized—the Perfect Lamb of YHWH. The Apostle Paul teaches that earthly marriage is a symbol of the Messiah and His bride. In fact, the Ark of the Covenant, barley, the tabernacle, the temple, the priesthood, and even the ancient Jewish people, are all foreshadows, or symbols, of the bride. The HRM actually misses that last one, though, and they do not understand that the Jewish people only symbolized the bride, and the written law that was given to them symbolized the giving of the Holy Spirit to the bride.

This is, essentially, what Christ's Sermon on the Mount was about (http://wayofthetabernacle.com/SOM_and_Law.htm). The written law governed only the physical man in outward displays of relational living, regulated the system of animal sacrifice, and kept the Jews separated from the Gentiles. But, the point that Christ taught was that, through His work of redemption, the real substance of His commandments, or will, was the internal force of the Holy Spirit in the life of the bride. The real point of the law was not to govern the physical man (which is destined for death), but the spiritual man (which receives life from the Holy Spirit). Moreover, by removing the details, or perfection that was demanded by the written law (Colossians 2:14), the believer is free to live in the liberty of the Spirit without fear of not executing His will perfectly. YHWH desires His children to identify with Him, and it is the Holy Spirit that will teach the believer how to do that—not as a matter of following a list of written rules, but from a heart that desires to please Him.

Furthermore, in not grasping the rich symbolism YHWH utilized to teach the bride about His will for her, the HRM preaches the symbols while rejecting the real substance those symbols foreshadowed—often creating illogical defenses of their false teachings. When confronted with the inconsistency of claiming believers are under the written law of the old covenant, but are not required to obey the sacrificial laws, they claim that it is because there is no temple, and since those sacrifices were to be done there, then it is impossible to properly execute the requirements of those laws.

But, that ignores the real substance of what the animal sacrifices symbolize in the life of the bride, and completely misses what, or who, the temple actually is. Animal sacrifices were a “crucifixion” of flesh, and the temple was a picture of the bride. It's not that flesh sacrifices are no longer part of YHWH's will for us, it is that those sacrifices were symbolic of the bride (temple) sacrificing her flesh to purify herself, or to make herself holy (1 Peter 1:16).

And, the ceremonial laws that regulated “clean vs. unclean” kept Jews separated from Gentiles, which symbolized the bride keeping herself separate from the world. In teaching that those physical laws remain, the HRM not only directly contradicts what we're taught in Ephesians 2 (as well as several other passages), it perverts the true meaning of what those laws symbolized—keeping its adherents bound to written physical rules, when the whole application was supposed to be a spiritual one. YHWH's will for the bride has nothing to do with food or drink or clothing, for those were just pictures representing the true application, which is that He desires His children to keep themselves from being defiled by the world.

Their vast error in this has actually produced teachings that fully misrepresent who the House of Israel and the House of Judah are, and claim that prophecies concerning them refer to literal blood Jews, when they actually represent the bride and the rest of the wedding party (OT saints and Tribulation saints). The HRM makes the preposterous claim that those who are a part of the bride have Jewish blood somewhere in their lineage, and that they are part of the lost tribes of ancient Israel. To make this wild stretch, they must completely reject scriptural teachings such as “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Yahoshua the Messiah.” (Galatians 3:28)

It is a foolish embrace of shadows, rather than applying what those symbols actually represented. By doing that, they are not living in truth, they are not living in the life of the Spirit; they are living in a picture, and missing the life and peace that the real substance gives. They demand compliance to that from which Christ freed us, and condemn anyone who exposes their deception and misrepresentation.

Paul teaches in Galatians 2 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for YHWH. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

To embrace the false teachings of the HRM is to proclaim that Christ died for nothing. My desire in writing this article is to inform those who might be tempted to fall for their false teachings to flee from everything they promote and proclaim, for those who teach such heresies are to be rebuked, not embraced. And, for those who already find themselves bound to these false teachings to turn away from them to the truth of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit will never remain quiet over a true believer's dabbling in these clear spiritual errors. The Holy Spirit gives life, but the false teachings of the HRM give nothing but death and condemnation in a deceptive package of false spirituality.

The Holy Spirit is the one who confirms that someone is YHWH's child (http://wayofthetabernacle.com/haggadah.htm), and that has nothing whatsoever to do with the written law of the old covenant. Believing that one can be made pure through that written law doesn't promote holiness before YHWH, it promotes self-righteousness and a spirit of condemnation toward others—which is why the main message they preach far and wide typically focuses on some aspect of the “Torah.” That sounds a whole lot like the Pharisees of Christ's time, doesn't it? Well, it is.


TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: falseteaching; hebraicroots; law; spirit

1 posted on 03/25/2013 10:01:21 AM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: WayoftheTab
Heb 13:8 Yeshua the Messiah, the same yesterday, today, and forever

The "Word of God" that put on flesh changed nothing because He never changes and His Word endures forever.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the matter, fear God and keep His commands, for this applies to all mankind. 14 For God shall bring every right work into right-ruling, including all that is hidden, whether good or whether evil.

This is all confirmed in my 2008 Lutheran study bible. The Lutheran bible says that using the word 'law', Greek 'nomos', limits the true meaning of the Hebrew word from which it was translated which is torah and that God's torah also applies to the teachings of the New Testament and that we are to keep the instructions given in the torah. So why does the church teach that which is opposite of what is written in their extensive study bible?

My former pastor could not answer this and every other pastor I have brought this too has yet to be able to justify teaching and preaching that which is in opposition to what their study bibles teach.

The way I see it is, Haskin's problem is that he has yet to fully embrace Messiah as He is defined by John. The Word of God who came to restore not to replace with something new and something lawless and which is in direct opposition to Messiah and to the Father whom the He represents and acts on behalf of, not in opposition to.

One can easily correlate Ecc 12:13-14 with Rev 22:12 "And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work. ... Blessed are those doing His commands, that they might have the right to the tree of life, and may enter into the gates of the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexual immoral and murderers and idolaters and those who love lies and practice falsehood (see Ez 14)."

"Doing His commands", not setting them aside because of some false teaching that Messiah did them for us so we no longer have to. That is the lie of the serpent in the garden that deceived Eve, the same old stagnant lie of old that continues to deceive because we prefer to tickle the ears and make the path broader rather than staying on the straight and narrow path that God laid out for us, the troublesome and turbulent path that Yeshua walked and told us to walk as He walked, in humble obedience to the Father whom we love. "If you love Me" does not beget the fruit of disobedience, it begets the fruit of loving commitment with the heartfelt fear of never wanting to disappoint the one we love by walking in opposition to Him.

God did not take a people from the nations to form a church, He chose a people to be His nation and His light to the world and the only way to show His light is to walk in His light as Yeshua walked in His light.

Ps 119:105 "Your Word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path"

This passage is bolstered by every Christian church worldwide, yet at the same time, denied by the Christian church because they confuse the 'oral' law of Judaism which Judaism calls "oral torah" with the Torah of God that was given to Moses for us to hear and do forever. (see Mk 7:6-7,13) When we deny His entire Word is for us, we deny Messiah who is the entire Word of God that existed before creation because it was by the Word of God that all was created and given life and it is this same Word of God that sustains all to this very day.

Mt 7:21 "“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens."

Doing the desire, "DOING THE DEISRE" of whom? The Father, the same desire that the Son did. Nothing new, all simply is true, from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 for it ALL applies to ALL mankind, whether Jew or Gentile.

Rom 3:1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. ... 31 Do we then make void the torah through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish (continue, uphold, take a stand on, make firm, covenant) the torah."

So who is it that is teaching a different Messiah? It certainly is not the HRN, but rather those who trample on the blood of Messiah by proclaiming and promoting the lie of the serpent in the garden, if you disobey God the Father, you will not die. WRONG! At that time, Adam and Eve were of eternal incorruptible flesh, and yes, that flesh did in fact die because through disobedience their flesh changed from corruptible to incorruptible the minute they believed the lie. And so too we will stay in the corruptible, never entering the incorruptible should we choose to continue to follow, proclaim and promote the lie of the serpent.

Dt 29:14 "And not with you alone I am making this covenant and this oath, 15 but with him who stands here with us today before יהוה our Elohim, as well as with him who is not here with us today."

God and His Word that put on flesh are outside of time, therefore the covenant that was made is also outside of time and for ALL and to ALL who chose to walk in it, not set it aside for a tickling of the ears watered down and cheapened Gospel message that was given to them first and then to us. The same Gospel for all time for all mankind to hear. The same Gospel message that uphold the authority of the Father over His children, those who love Him and guard to do His commands with all their heart, soul and strength.

Jn 14:26 "But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you"

Mt 22:37 "And Yeshua said to him, “ ‘You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind.’ 38 “This is the first and great command. 39 “And the second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 “On these two commands hang all the Torah and the Prophets."

In Luke 24, Yeshua did not tell us to go to some future books of the Scriptures to seek Him and the Way of He and the Father, Yeshua told us specifically to search out Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.

Ps 119:1 Blessed are the perfect in the Way, Who walk in the Torah of Yahweh! 2 Blessed are those who observe His witnesses, Who seek Him with all the heart! 3 Yea, they shall do no unrighteousness; They shall walk in His Way. 4 You have commanded us To guard Your orders diligently. 5 Oh, that my ways were established To guard Your laws! 6 Then I would not be ashamed, When I look into all Your commands."

1Jn 2:1 "My little children, I write this to you, so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Intercessor with the Father, Yeshua the Messiah, a righteous One. 2 And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world. 4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of God has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him, 6 The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked."

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and guard His commands. 3 For this is the love for God, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not burdensome,"

So if His Word is His light to the nations, then how arrogant of us to presume we can be His light to the nations while walking in darkness rather than in His light.

2 posted on 03/26/2013 8:49:14 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

It appears that patlin either did not read the entire article, or did not understand it. Either way, the comment is nothing more than the typical HRM tactic of lifting scriptures out of context, or misapplying/misinterpreting them.

Christ is not the “Torah,” as you implied with your John 1 reference, and that is covered here: http://wayofthetabernacle.com/christ_living_torah.htm

Again, those who embrace the error you seem to embrace, do not grasp that you’re clinging to a symbol and rejecting the real substance. The Holy Spirit is the Living Law of YHWH. When one obeys Him, He is doing the commands of the Father. If one does not possess Him, then it is easy to understand why that person might believe it is the written law he must obey. Those who possess the Holy Spirit know better, for the Spirit Himself instructs them in the will of the Father.

The Bible also tells us how those who possess the Holy Spirit will know they possess Him: http://wayofthetabernacle.com/haggadah.htm


3 posted on 03/26/2013 1:32:29 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: patlin

It appears that patlin either did not read the entire article, or did not understand it. Either way, the comment is nothing more than the typical HRM tactic of lifting scriptures out of context, or misapplying/misinterpreting them.

Christ is not the “Torah,” as you implied with your John 1 reference, and that is covered here: http://wayofthetabernacle.com/christ_living_torah.htm

Again, those who embrace the error you seem to embrace, do not grasp that you’re clinging to a symbol and rejecting the real substance. The Holy Spirit is the Living Law of YHWH. When one obeys Him, He is doing the commands of the Father. If one does not possess Him, then it is easy to understand why that person might believe it is the written law he must obey. Those who possess the Holy Spirit know better, for the Spirit Himself instructs them in the will of the Father.

The Bible also tells us how those who possess the Holy Spirit will know they possess Him: http://wayofthetabernacle.com/haggadah.htm


4 posted on 03/26/2013 1:32:40 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: WayoftheTab
It would appear that WayoftheTab does not understand exactly what Scriptures were available during the 1st century and what it means to be a true Berean as they were in Acts 17.

John 1:1 speaks of the only Word of God known to John and that would only be those scrolls that are left of Matthew that they all quote from. We should need no other scrolls than what they had in the time of Messiah to know and understand the true Gospel that Luke and Paul speak of. The same Gospel that Luke and Paul said was first spoken to those who lived during the times that are found left of Matthew that prophesied of the Messiah, the Redeemer to come.

Jn 14:6 “I am the Way, the Truth and Life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

Ps 119:1 Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the Law of the LORD
Ps 119:142: Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy Law is the truth.
Ps 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy Commandments are truth.
ps 119:160 Thy word is truth from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Dt 32:46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this Law. 47a For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life

This is how a true Berean allows the Scriptures to define the Word. God does not need man's help in this area, He is a very capable God who made sure His Word was defined for us within His Word, no matter the language we read it in.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt

Dt 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Rm 10:6 But the righteousness of belief speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who shall ascend into the heavens?’ ” – that is, to bring Messiah down; or, 7 “ ‘Who shall descend into the abyss?’ ” – that is, to bring Messiah up from the dead. 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” – that is, the word of belief which we are proclaiming

Dt 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

So, it would seem that even Luke and Paul understood what John was telling us in the 1st passage of his gospel account and that truth is Yeshua Messiah is the same Word of God that Moses spoke of, the same Word of God we are to hear and do. And of course they are 100% right as Yeshua Messiah IS the Word of God and that Word is the Living Torah (Oracles).

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath. 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole assembly,

With the help of His Spirit, we learn as we grow in the Word to do the Word as God gave it in the beginning. The same Word of God that is the same yesterday, today and forever which is the only constant truth of this world that we live in.

1Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Letters in ink do not live but by and through the One who is the Living Word, Yeshua Messiah. When we open our bibles, we are experiencing the Living Word of God and that Word is written on our hearts to hear and to do it if our hearts are humble enough to accept His grace as faithful servants, not free agents as the church teaches. Grace is a gift we receive and each one must make the decision for themselves whether they will cherish it as to protect and guard it or to throw it in a closet or by the wayside where it collects the dust and grime of the world. (Jer 13:1-10) Beware the idols of the heart, the heart that God says is deceitful and wicked above all else. (Jer 17:9 - Eze 14)

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God .

Ps 118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation, 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

When spoken in Hebrew as they would have during the time of Messiah, the word spoken for 'salvation' is "Yeshua", "Yeshua" who currently is sitting back at the right hand of the Father where He was before He came in the flesh to sufffer, die and resurrect for our sins. How dare we even think to trample on the blood of Messiah, the Word of God, by proclaiming that we are exempt fom any part of the Word of God because of the lies we inherited from the early church fathers of the 4th century who thought to change His times and Laws. Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

5 posted on 03/28/2013 9:17:19 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: WayoftheTab
You wrote in at your website the following: “In Matthew 27:50-53, we're told that many who were dead were resurrected with Yahoshua, and were seen by several people in Jerusalem. These were the Old Testament saints who were commonly referred to as “Abraham's Bosom.” In John 20, we're told of a conversation Yahoshua had with Mary Magdalene in which He told her to stop clinging to Him, for He had not yet ascended to His Father. The significance of this statement is that, now, as the Great High Priest, He was responsible to present the wave offering to His Father. The Old Testament saints were presented by the Great High Priest Yahoshua upon His ascension to the Father.”

Now how does one rectify that with these passages of Scripture that Paul wrote which is known as the “Hall of Fame” chapter of the bible.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. [KJV]

It would seem that your theory on the barley and the wheat harvest has a few sheaves that are not quite ripe for harvest yet. You might want to restudy that which you wrote about in error, much like your theory that all we have to do is confess Messiah without having to walk as He walked as Scripture commands us to do all throughout the New Testament.

1 Cor 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. [NKJV]

6 posted on 03/28/2013 9:53:25 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

“Grace is a gift we receive and each one must make the decision for themselves whether they will cherish it as to protect and guard it or to throw it in a closet or by the wayside where it collects the dust and grime of the world. (Jer 13:1-10)”


I wrote this just now for a Catholic, but it can be applied to this statement as well, that suggests that grace is insufficient to save a man:

“Catholics do not believe that salvation is by grace alone, and therefore argue that their salvation hinges on their obedience to Rome and their own good works. (They even believe that baptism confers “grace,” giving them the ability to believe, which is an act of man and not of God alone.) This is, in other words, a choice they are making, on whether or not they wish to be justified by God, albeit, they claim they do so in cooperation with God. But if it is not all of grace, then it must be all of man. There is no middle-ground where the grace of God is insufficient to save a man.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Whenever God intends to give His grace to a man, it is described as a complete work.

Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the order of the words. Those whom He predestinates, are to be conformed to the image of His Son. It is not, those who, working with God, and are baptized, conform themselves to His Son and are then predestinated. It is the exact opposite.

Then he says, those whom God predestinates, He calls, and those He calls He justifies, and those He justifies He glorifies. No where is anyone receiving a call, and then answering it of his own free-will, and then being predestinated as a result.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Again, they believed because they were ordained. They did not get “ordained” because they believed.

There is also no failure here in God’s determination to have His elect.

Those whom God draws, come to Jesus without fail:

Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

No one can take them out of His hand:

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Not even in the heights of delusion by false-Christs working with devils, they cannot be lost.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If it were possible means that it is not possible, though if salvation hinged on the man, it is always possible.

It is impossible, however, for someone to come to Christ or remain in Him who has not been drawn by the Father.

Joh 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

They do not believe because they are not His sheep. It is not, they do not believe, and therefore God shall not let them become His sheep.

It happens again here, in response to the Jews murmering in disbelief of Christ’s sayings.

Joh 6:42-44 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He repeats the fact that they do not believe BECAUSE they were not drawn by the Father:

Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, THEREFORE said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Salvation, then, is the complete work of God, who has mercy on whom He will have mercy, so that it is not him that runneth, or him that willeth, but on God who shows mercy.

Rom 9:14-25 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

All the Roman notions of grace and salvation, therefore, have no basis in the scripture.”

Salvation is either all of God, or it is not.

There is indeed a difference between a Living Faith and a dead one, as the living faith is that faith which is made perfect by obedience. It is, like in the quote from Romans, something we as necessity of being God’s elect follow as a direct movement of God, but it (works) neither saves us nor helps our cause.

For why would Cornelius and his family be baptized with the Holy Spirit, prior to any Christian works?

Also, Christ fulfills the law, and though the moral law is is true and serves to show that we are all under sin, there is no reason to bear the “yoke” of Jewish custom as if it could add one whit to our salvation.

Gal 5:1-7 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (7) Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?


7 posted on 03/28/2013 10:13:10 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
I understand the Catholic concept of works salvation as they wrote nothing new but simply reworked through their false doctrine the works salvation of the circumcision party of Acts 15:1 who repeatedly appears throughout the New testament to thwart the efforts of the apostles in leading the children of God into right “relationship”. I find it odd that you quote from Eph 2 but then do not make the connection to James 2 as grace is through faith, then one must understand from God's point of view what faith is.

Faith is the fruit that His grace produces and that fruit is sprouted from His “seed” that is implanted in our hearts, the “seed” that is called the “Word of God” according to Luke 8:11.

Yeshua said that none can come to Him unless they have been called by the Father. This is the calling and receiving of the word of God's grace. “Many are called, few will enter”, why? Because many refuse to answer the true call of the Father as Yeshua answered the call of the Father, to humbly submit oneself to the will of the Father.

Dt 8:2 And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. 3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.

Mt 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.’ “

Lk 4:4 But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD OF GOD.’ “

Paul tells us that those of the faith are of Abraham's seed, and not as seeds of many but as one “seed” and that “seed” is Messiah. Paul was alluding to the words of Yeshua when He spoke these words,

Mt 3:9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Lk 3:8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Jn 8:39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Gen 26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Abraham had the gospel preached to him, Abraham knew Messiah personally.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand

Ps 110:4 The LORD has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”

Gen 14:18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him and said: “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

Jn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

You may be interested in reading the book “Who ate lunch with Abraham” as it would seem you have missed a critical prophetic message from God the Father concerning just who has been speaking, appearing and acting on His behalf since the beginning, since the 1st day of creation. Does the legal term “power of attorney” come to mind? It should.

1Cor 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

When one understands the “tabernacle” of God to be Messiah and that the earthly temple was merely a shadow of the heavenly that we are a part of, then one is able to come into right relationship with God through Yeshua Messiah as that was the purpose of the earthly temple, to bring us into right relationship with the Father as Yeshua is in right relationship with the Father. You say there is nothing to be done, but Paul begs to differ with you.

2Cor 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So yes it is, come as you are, but then humble we are to humble ourselves to become that which He originally created man to be, of incorruptible flesh. When we receive the spirit helper from the Father, the same spirit that was in Yeshua’s flesh, we now have the ability to be transformed and in that transformation, we are His light to the world just as Yeshua is His light to the world.

Without His light there is darkness, just as we see all around us today due to the cheapening of His grace which is the most precious and priceless gift one could ever receive.

Relationship denotes action on the part of both parties in the relationship. On God's part, He gives us grace, on our part, we become His humble servants doing the will of the Father as Yeshua did the will of the Father, as Abraham did the will of the Father. Why else would Yeshua say in Mt 5:48 to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect if he did not expect his disciples and followers to do as he did, walk in obesiance to the Father?

Does one who truly loves get engaged and then continue to walk and act like they are single? Does one who truly loves say “I do” in their marriage vows then still walk and act as they are single? So if we are betrothed to Yeshua Messiah, the Word of God, then what does it say of our love of the Father and the Son if we choose to walk a path in opposition to that which the Father through Yeshua calls us to walk?

Religion makes its own rules, “relationship” submits to the rules already in place by the head of the household and for those in Messiah, that household is the household of God the Father. Eph 2:19-22

8 posted on 03/28/2013 11:35:13 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

“Yeshua said that none can come to Him unless they have been called by the Father. This is the calling and receiving of the word of God’s grace. “Many are called, few will enter”, why?”


Here is the scripture you have referenced:

Mat 22:9-14 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. (10) So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. (11) And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: (12) And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. (13) Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (14) For many are called, but few are chosen.

From Barnes’ Commentary:
“Our Saviour often uses this expression. It was probably proverbial. The Jews had been called, but few of them had been chosen to life. The great mass of the nation was wicked, and they showed by their lives that they were not chosen to salvation. The Gentiles also were invited to be saved, Isa_45:22. Nation after nation has been called; but few, few have yet showed that they were real Christians, the elect of God. It is also true that many who are in the church may prove to be without the wedding garment, and show at last that they were not the chosen of God. This remark in the 14th verse is the inference from the “whole parable,” and not of the part about the man without the wedding garment. It does not mean, therefore, that the great mass in the church are simply called and not chosen, or are hypocrites; but the great mass in “the human family,” in the time of Christ, who had been “called,” had rejected the mercy of God.”

It would be false to assume that they are chosen because of their works. Rather, they are chosen by the grace of God:

Rom 9:10-15 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Works, therefore, have no effect on election.

“You say there is nothing to be done, but Paul begs to differ with you.”


I never said there is nothing to be done. I said that what is done has no bearing on salvation, as all hinges not on the man, but on God who has mercy.

Your quote from 3 Cor does not contradict Romans, as he says in Romans “whom he calls, he justifies” and “whom he foreknew, he predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.” In other words, it is the work of God who conforms us, not man.

Your scripture does not say, “Man conforms himself to the image of God by following countless Hebrew ritual laws.”

Furthermore, lets actually discuss the Greatest Commandments:

Mat 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Where are the dietary laws? Where is circumcision? Where are feast days? If they determine your salvation, they would be listed. Instead, Christ calls us to the meat of the law.

Yes, we are the Temples of God, and as such must endeavor to keep ourselves Holy. But can we really succeed in this?

1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

The mark of the true Christian is that he always endeavors to be conformed to the image of Christ, even as he wars against the sin in his members, but no one is justified by the law, nor are we bound to obey the ritual, sacrificial and other such laws which were all, merely, prefigures of Christ. You would have us believe that all of these laws are still bound to us, since they are within the Books of Moses.

Heb 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: (9) Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; (10) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Act_15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Mat_11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light

The time of reformation has come with Christ, who fulfilled those laws and their penalty on the cross, and now we are dead to the law, bound only to the law of Christ, which is no unbearable yoke.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom_7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


9 posted on 03/29/2013 12:08:18 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
As an additional note to the previous reply, what Paul was alluding to on Rm 9 is that because of God's grace that has been since He sent Adam and Eve packing from the garden, no man can claim that God is obligated to receive them into His eternal kingdom because of their works, this way no man can boast. But this grace does in no way exempt us from serving God as God wants to be served which Yeshua exemplified for us so beautifully.

There is only one truth and one true way in this world and that is God's truth and His way. Everything else is of man and man's carnal nature that we were born into due to the first act of disobedience towards God.

Rm 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jn 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

The Spirit of Truth who hears and speaks the words of the Father just as it was for the Yeshua in the flesh as exampled in his 40 days of testing which was prophesied to happen for all born in the flesh in Dt 8:2-3.

In Eze 20, God prophesies of the time of Yeshua’s return when the rebels will be purged from amongst the flock. In Eze 36 He speaks of how the remaining will be cleansed from all their unrighteousness. But, in Rev 19:7-8 the bride is the one who has already prepared herself prior to Yeshua’s return (Mt 25) and because of her preparation, she is given the gift of the fine wedding linen of righteousness. It does not say that Yeshua was their preparation, it says she prepared herself and as earthly wedding prep has taught us, every bride has an attendant and for we the bride of Messiah, that attendant is the Father's Spirit of Truth, the same truth that was and is in Yeshua. The truth that has been from everlasting and will remain everlasting as God and the Son are outside of time as to them there is only one time frame and that is the time frame of God the Father who is infinite and outside the comprehension of man's feeble and corrupt minds. No dispensations, no earth ages just one cycle of time that repeats over and over again until the day He comes to rid us of man's dispensations and ages of time to reimplement His “ONE” and eternal kingdom as it was meant to be in the beginning.

We can humbly submit now, or we can wait and do it the hard way as they did in the wilderness, that is if we survive because the only ones gathered at His return are the ones who have already proven themselves worthy to be a priest of God by obeying God and teaching others to do as Yeshua did.

1Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

If it is the Father who calls us out to come to His son,then it is the Father to whom we owe obesiance, just as the Son.

Mt 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The scribes and pharisees were at least following the commands, albeit they were doing it with their oral law added to it, but never did they set aside the commands as Christian doctrine of cheap grace teaches. Really, just how important are the food laws? Peter speaks of them in the 1st chapter of his 1st epistle which ends by telling us to cleanse ourselves, but more importantly, God speaks of them through His prophet Isaiah,

Is 65:2 "I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts; ... 4 who sit among the graves, And spend the night in the tombs; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of abominable things is in their vessels;"

Is 66:16 "For by fire and by His sword The LORD will judge all flesh; And the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens after an idol in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, shall be consumed together," says the LORD.

If our desire is to be part of the bride as the Father desires and has called us to be, then we must also desire to be His priests as that is what the bride is, His priests of the order of Malki'Tzedek under the order and direction of Yeshua the High Priest of the order of Malki'Tzedek. No priest enters the tablernalcle without first being cleansed and that is what Torah does, it instructs us how to cleanse ourselves for service in His holy tabernacle.

The true Gospel message:

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." 7 So Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before them all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 Then all the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." So Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD. 9 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I come to you in the thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and believe you forever." So Moses told the words of the people to the LORD. 10 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes. 11 And let them be ready for the third day. For on the third day the LORD will come down upon Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.

We are nearing that third day, should we not be preparing and cleansing ourselves for His service He has called us to?

10 posted on 03/29/2013 12:34:53 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

“As an additional note to the previous reply, what Paul was alluding to on Rm 9 is that because of God’s grace that has been since He sent Adam and Eve packing from the garden, no man can claim that God is obligated to receive them into His eternal kingdom because of their works, this way no man can boast. But this grace does in no way exempt us from serving God as God wants to be served which Yeshua exemplified for us so beautifully.”


What Romans 9 and the rest of the Bible actually teaches is that salvation is by the grace of God, who is utterly sovereign in election and justification. There’s no getting around it, which is why you won’t examine Romans 9 in detail. It does not take out serving God. It takes out the idea that by serving God we are saving ourselves. It also shows that serving God is the fruit of the Spirit, which therefore means it is God working in us, and not the man working in God.

As to the Food Laws or Feast Days or other such things, we are not bound to them. Not only that, but we are commanded not to engage in such doubtful disputations as sacred days or dietary arguments. The following scriptures well establish this:

Rom 14:1-6 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. (2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. (3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. (4) Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

If eating or not eating are both to the Lord, how can either be wrong? Rather it is the heart of the man that is most important, and not on such minor doctrines as these.

Our liberty in Christ is such that we are not bound to such silly issues (as we are under the Law of Christ), which were symbols only of greater spiritual truths. Certainly what comes out of a man’s mouth is more important than what goes into it.

1Co 10:23-29 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (24) Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth. (25) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: (26) For the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof. (27) If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. (28) But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof: (29) Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience?


11 posted on 03/29/2013 12:48:01 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
“Yeshua said that none can come to Him unless they have been called by the Father” ... Here is the scripture you have referenced: Mat 22:9-14

Umm, no, the Scripture I was referencing was,

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

No one is ever chosen by their works and HRN does not teach this. What they teach is works as evidence of ones faith just as James defines it, no more , no less. Grace is absolutely free and there is nothing we can do to obligate God to give it to us. NOTHING! NADA! But we understand that by accepting that gift of grace, we then have the love in our hearts to never ever want to disappoint the Father, just as we never wished to disappoint our earthly parents as to bring disgrace to their names, and dishonor their authority over us.

God's Name carries the full force of His Authority over our lives, just as it did Yeshua.

Rm 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that ones slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

2Thess 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ... 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

There are only 2 spirits in this world, the Spirit of Truth that comes from God the Father or the spirit of the lawlessone who is the serpent in the garden.

You asked where dietary laws? Where is circumcision? Where are feast days? What you do not see is that you answered your own questions when you quoted Mt 22:40 “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

But let's look at the 2 greatest commands? Where did they come from?

Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

Dt 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Did you really think the Son came up with new doctrine of His own when He clearly stated over and over again that He spoke not one word of His own, but only that given to Him from the Father?

I do not follow Jewish traditions (oral law aka Talmud) nor do I promote them as that is clearly a violation of Yeshua’s commands in Mark 7, doctrines and traditions that make void the authority of the Law of God. But when the Word of God clearly says that something is forever, I trust Him that that I am to learn from what He says and to follow those instructions with all my heart.

Rm 7 ... we became dead to the law of adultery as we had strayed from the true worship of God by worshiping Him according to the traditions and doctrines of man and in the eyes of God, He sees that as adultery. That is the golden calf incident. But really, let's take a look at what Paul first said when he began in Romans 7,

“Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the Law), that the Law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?”

So it would seem that unless you are studied in “the Law” aka Moses, then Paul is not speaking to you because you wouldn't understand what he was speaking to which is spiritual adultery as what had happened at the golden calf incident where they proclaimed it was a feast to God but then turned and held it according to their desires and not His desire as He had just commanded them prior to Moses ascending the mountain. They said “I do” then they went and continued in their own ways rather than the way God set before them. Paul tells us that these became examples to us (1Cor 10) so that we would not fall into their rebellious and disobedient ways.

But whatever it is, it all is a matter of the heart, a circumcised heart. If ones heart is circumcised, one will want to with all their heart, soul and strength do all that is pleasing to God as He gave it to us to do. And a circumcised heart will speak His Word truthfully, not twisting it to our own destruction as has been done over and over and over again by all walks of religion.

Putting on the yoke of Yeshua is a light as He said it is. No longer do I feel the pressures of the man made religious days that have been turned into nothing more than commercialism and the result, lower blood pressure and a more fruitful bank account that we can share with those more needy than us. Putting on the yoke of Yeshua is truly as James & John said it would be, LIBERTY! NOT Bondage! and Not Burdensome! Why, because one truly feels His presence like one has never felt before when one was weighed down by the doctrines and teachings of men who do not walk in the Way of Yeshua.

1Jn 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Jam 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the Law of liberty.

I think of it as God's Constitution that includes His Bill of Rights as well as His additional amendments to further clarify the original Law of His Land, His Promised Land that is our inheritance and it is not of this world, but of the world to come. His Constitution, Bill of Rights and amendments that we all will be judged by as to whether we had it in our hearts to obey Him or not for He did not send His Son to form a church but to restore His nation, His kingdom of priests who are a special and set apart people from those of the doctrines and traditions of men who twist, add to and take away from His Word in order to create their own authority outside of His true authority over all that He created and gives life to.

12 posted on 03/29/2013 1:32:50 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

“Umm, no, the Scripture I was referencing was,”


I specifically quoted you writing “many are called, few enter,” which was your variation of “many are called, few are chosen,” which I quoted and responded to. I made no reference to anything else you were saying.

” What they teach is works as evidence of ones faith just as James defines it, no more , no less. “


James defines it:

Jas 2:8-10 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: (9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. (10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

No mention of circumcision, dietary laws, or anything of that nature.

“You asked where dietary laws? Where is circumcision? Where are feast days?”


Your constant insistence over these vain laws which we are dead to have already been refuted, especially by the quotes from Romans 14 and 1 Cor 10 which bring up the issue of foods and sacred days plainly.

“His Constitution, Bill of Rights and amendments that we all will be judged by”


We put on Christ, and therefore pass from judgment to life.


13 posted on 03/29/2013 1:51:19 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
What Romans 9 and the rest of the Bible actually teaches is that salvation is by the grace of God

Why did you stop? Paul says “grace through faith”, never does Scripture ever say by grace alone. You can search the Scriptures day and night for ever and ever and you will never find the phrase “grace alone” anywhere in the bible.

But there is a place where one can find the words faith and alone in the same passage.

Jam 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

One is not going to be saved unless one is justified before the Father. You see there is grace, deliverance, justification and salvation, in that order. Yes we may currently be delivered out of our ignorance of His truth, but we have yet to enter salvation as in crossing over from corruptible flesh to incorruptible flesh. Being saved from something and actually entering into His salvation are two completely different things.

Yes, Salvation is a free gift so suppose you were given as a gift, say a plane ticket to your favorite vacation destination. Now there is only one catch, the ticket is for a date in the future, say 10 yrs from now. How do you know you will actually get to use it unless you guard it and tend to it so it does not get lost or stolen? This is what salvation through grace is, it is a ticket to a future destination that needs guarding and tending so we do not loose it because on this ticket of salvation is the directions on how to redeem it. We are given this ticket for the future when we said “I do” to His covenant the same way we say ‘I do” to our marriage vows in the flesh. When we do not guard and tend those vows, the marriage breaks up and that is why Yeshua said to the assembly at Philadelphia, “Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.”

If something can be taken away, then that something is not guaranteed thus the false doctrine of once saved always saved is just another heretical doctrine and teaching of man that has no foundation in God's Word, just as most of them are.

14 posted on 03/29/2013 1:54:43 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
I'd be careful what one calls vain as our every word is being recorded in His Book of Works that we are going to be judged by.

FYI, when one puts on something, they take on the look of that something they put on. Think about it! If one says they have “put on Messiah”, then one ought to be able to actually see Messiah in that which the person who claims to wear Him says and does.

“You will now them by their fruits.” The Word of God does not produce lawlessness, it produces children whose hearts are dedicated to serving the Father's desire as Yeshua serves the Father's desire. To walk humbly before ones God is to submit to the will of ones God, doing His desire.

Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied (spoken your word) in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

15 posted on 03/29/2013 2:04:49 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

“Why did you stop? Paul says “grace through faith”, never does Scripture ever say by grace alone”


As far as I can tell, you share the same opinion as me on this. Only, for some odd reason, you add works that you yourself confess are utterly irrelevant by sharing my stance. For if salvation is by the grace of God through Faith, faith itself arising from God’s grace, then how can something as minor as food and dietary laws change or add onto the work of God? But you do not follow the logic of your own arguments to their end, intending to put a yoke on people that even the Jews themselves could not maintain.

It’s an insidious and worldly error.

“You see there is grace, deliverance, justification and salvation, in that order.”


It’s predestination, calling, justification, and glorification, in that order:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The predestination from eternity, the calling, which follows predestination, and from calling to justification, occur in time.

The word “Justification” is also simply just another word for salvation.

“Yes, Salvation is a free gift so suppose you were given as a gift, say a plane ticket to your favorite vacation destination. Now there is only one catch, the ticket is for a date in the future, say 10 yrs from now. “


Except it is not a plane ticket 10 years into the future. It is the gift of God that works without the running or willing of man.

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

These are ordained to eternal life, and therefore they believed. They were not ordained conditionally based on a plane ticket. What God has declared, no one can cast away.

Certainly, we are warned often to check our election, but not that one scripture contradicts another. The election of God is secret and unknown to man. Therefore, we must always be on guard. When I see a Christian who is terrified of losing his salvation, and comes to me asking for help, he is a truly a Christian of Christians, for the damned never worry for such things. Those who fall away, and yet confessed Christ at one point, were never known by Christ to begin with.

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice these people even seem to operate in the gifts of the Spirit, casting out devils and performing miracles. The scripture is clear that He rains His blessings on both the good and evil seeds, yet the evil seeds only grow up to damnation. However, it is not, “I knew you until you fell away,” it is “I never knew you” at all.

John himself supports this view again:

1Jn_2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

They were not “once of us,” and then fell out and became “not of us.” They were always “not of us,” and had to leave to make it manifest that they were not all of us.

The scriptures cannot be broken.

God knows who His sheep are, and none can escape His hand:

Joh 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. (30) I and my Father are one.

Your battle is with the sovereignty of God and the sufficiency of His own will and power. And for that reason you insert things we are not commanded to obey and harp on works. But this is the true error, common with all worldly religions. They all promote works-righteousness in one form or another.


16 posted on 03/29/2013 2:21:41 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: patlin

“I’d be careful what one calls vain as our every word is being recorded in His Book of Works that we are going to be judged by.”


You will be judged by that, and you shall die in it. I don’t think there is a man on this planet who does not spend more time frustrating God with his sins that a person who self-righteously believes he is pleasing God.

Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I am judged by the law of grace, as promised by the scriptures, being dead to the law.

We put on Christ for the exact reason that we CANNOT “look like Him” by our own willing and working.

Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Therefore our righteousness is not imputed by our working, but by our faith in Christ, who ordained us in His plan of election before the foundation of the world.

Rom 4:2-7 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

You cannot reconcile your insistence on following the law, and “maintaining” and pursuing, on a doctrine which states it is a free gift, through no working of your own, by the unmerited grace of God. It’s completely alien to the scriptures.

Grace is grace because it is NOT works:

Rom 11:5-6 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


17 posted on 03/29/2013 2:29:35 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: patlin

“I’d be careful what one calls vain “


I just caught on to what you were referring to. Your words are certainly vain, as they, as I said before which you ran away from, are utterly refuted by the scriptures in Romans 14 and 1 Cor 10, which speak on dietary laws and sacred days straight out.

Until you respond to them, I’ll just keep telling you that your arguments are vain and pointless.


18 posted on 03/29/2013 2:36:05 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Where were the Gentiles at? They were at the synagogue hearing Moses being preached.

Salvation, grace and works are in relationship with each other, they are not and never have been opposed. What got man in the fallen state we find ourselves in today? Was it something moral that they did wrong? Did they neglect the Sabbath? NO!

They ate of the forbidden food! So please do not tell me that what goes in our mouths does not matter because that is what started it all in the first place. Ever heard the phrase, “the way to a man's heart is through his stomach”? That did not come from no where, it came right from the garden, in the beginning.

You've got the Christian verse plucking down to a tee. The only problem is that verse plucking broadens the path, it does not keep it narrow, straight and difficult as it was meant to be.

Mt 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The bride is the remnant, not the majority who thinks their way is right. We see this picture in Joshua and Caleb, those who were alive to actually cross over. Over 3 million left Egypt but only 2 of the original that left Egypt actually entered into the Promised Land. Why?

Num 14:24 But My servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit in him and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land where he went, and his descendants shall inherit it.

Caleb received through grace, the Spirit of Truth. Caleb was not of the ‘seed’ of Judah of the Israelites who left Egypt, he was one of the smart Gentiles who left was grafted into Judah just as we are grafted into Messiah.

Num 32:12 except Caleb the son of Jephunneh, the Kenizzite, and Joshua the son of Nun, for they have wholly followed the LORD.’

Both Caleb and Joshua, the natural and the spiritual, walking in the Spirit of Truth

Jn 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

And as we witness from Yeshua’s testimony in John 4, the Jews have the truth and the Gentiles have the spirit but it is only when the two unite and become one that we become one with God as Yeshua is one with God.

As far as the yoke, that yoke is what Judah had added to God's word, that salvation is by works. But just because it is not by works does not mean we do not do it, that is why Yeshua came, so we can do it without the fear of the curse of it for our past sins, “for all have sinned and fallen short”. Why do you think Yeshua said, go and sin no more? Did the lame man in the temple do something immoral to cause him to be lame? No, disease and infirmity are results of the curse of the Law for not obeying it and that curse can go to the forth generation unless one chooses to stop it as it exampled for us in Eze 18 as well as the story of Ruth.

Dt 30:19 “I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live”

Mt 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (see also Jer 23)

19 posted on 03/29/2013 3:09:50 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
It's all in how one receives the gift which shows in ones response to receiving the gift, with humility or with selfishness. There is nothing humble about receiving a gift and then throwing trash or tossing it aside as if it has no current value for our lives now is there?

One who disregards authority is one who has no fear of the one in authority. And where His authority is shunned is where darkness abides. Yeshua’s light comes from the Father, he does not give it to the Father and it is the Father's light that Yeshua came to give to us. You know that light and that lamp thing that Christianity boasts all the time but then they turn their backs on it as having any value.

The Father and His Word made flesh as One, not two, but One for all time, everlasting, unchanging, eternally bonded together as a light to the world for all the world seek in order for the all the world to walk in the Father's light as Yeshua walks in the Father's light.

The greater light for the day and the lessor light for the night. The greater that the lessor light reflects. It is all embedded in his creation for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Man was made in His likeness to reflect Him, not walk opposed to the way He walks.

20 posted on 03/29/2013 3:24:23 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

” So please do not tell me that what goes in our mouths does not matter because that is what started it all in the first place. “


It doesn’t matter. What comes out of the mouth is indeed more important:

Mat 15:17-20 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? (18) But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. (19) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: (20) These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Also read Romans 14 and 1 Cor 10.

Wash and repeat, wash and repeat, until your heresy is cleaned entirely.


21 posted on 03/29/2013 1:32:44 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
What comes out of the mouth is indeed more important

ABSOLUTELY! I am in agreement here but that does not negate our responsibility and duty to walk, teach and speak His truth as He gave it to us to walk, teach and speak.

Rm 14 is about fasting and not eating food sacrificed to idols, 1Cor 10 about giving thanks to God for all that He created to be eaten and not letting anyone hinder us in our walk with Yeshua.

And Mt 15 is not about what is defined as food, but is about the legalism of the oral law of Judaism and their hand-washing laws that put yokes on men where Yahweh put no yokes on men. Now hand-washing before eating is a good thing, it is just not a command of Yahweh.

Yeshua in Mt 15:19 speaks of blasphemies and false witnessing, these are things that are said that are not true and evil speaking against the authority of Yahweh, both of which contain that which is direct opposition what Yeshua walked and taught which is obedience to the Father from a circumcised heart.

In Lk 24, Yeshua defined His Scriptures for us that we are to use to seek out Him and His truth and Yeshua defines these Scriptures as Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms, so everything that Yeshua, Paul and all the other apostles speak must align with that which Yeshua gave us to seek out. If they don't, then it is a new gospel that Yeshua did not preach.

The Father doesn't wait a decade or more to reveal His truth, He prophesies before hand what will be and then He gives it when He or His representative is present as He did at Mt Sinai. All the apostles confirm that the covenant given at Mt Sinai is the one and the same covenant given to us, the only difference is that we now have it in its fullest meaning that was prophesied to happen upon Yeshua’s death, burial and resurrection.

Nothing new, but all simply true as it has been from the beginning. If it doesn't have ‘hath God said’ or ‘God says’ before it, I believe it to be inspired but inspired is not the same as directly from the horse's mouth as it was at Mt Sinai.

2Tim 3:14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Yeshua Messiah. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What Scriptures had Timothy known from his youth? Certainly not that which was written long after he became an adult and a disciple of Yeshua Messiah. All that which is right of Malachi did not exist in a formal scroll for ALL to read until centuries after Messiah's death. All that is and was, is and is to be was written long before Yeshua came in the flesh to lead and teach us how to walk in righteousness of the Father as He, Yeshua, walked in the righteousness of the Father.

Yeshua said in Mt 7 that those practicing lawlessness, He does not know them and they do not know Him. Christian doctrine, which includes my former state of spirituality, teaches a lawless gospel message in direct opposition to that of Yeshua. My Lutheran study bible admits it! So what does that say? It says they know it but their hearts are so hardened that they refuse to humble themselves to His truth so that they can keep walking in their own righteousness rather than His.

Whose righteousness do you want to be found in when He returns? His or the churches? Because it is only those walking in His righteousness that obtain the reward of the bride. Righteousness simply being doing that which is right in the eyes of the Father, not doing what is deemed to be right in the eyes of some religious zealots seeking their own righteousness as many of the Pharisees and scribes were doing with the Word of God that they had changed and continue to change. Christian Pharisees are a dime a dozen, just as Jewish ones are to this very day. The only difference, the Jewish ones admit to being Pharisees who claim to have the authority to change God's instructions and heap unwanted yokes and burdens on the people.

Christian doctrine absolutely teaches works based salvation with their sacraments. Every one of them!!! If food laws are so trivial, then I guess we can put them under the 'least' of His commands which Yeshua said we are not to teach anyone that it is ok to disobey even the least.

Not one jott or one tittle shall fall, ever! His Word is eternal and for all mankind. (Ecc 12:13-14)

22 posted on 03/29/2013 3:18:17 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

“Rm 14 is about fasting and not eating food sacrificed to idols,”


Wrong.

Rom 14:1-6 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. (2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. (3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. (4) Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

No mention of fasting. In fact, the person who chooses to eat “only herbs” is called “weak in the faith” compared to the person who believes he can eat all things. Fasting is never called a “weakness” in scripture.

“1Cor 10 about giving thanks to God for all that He created to be eaten and not letting anyone hinder us in our walk with Yeshua.”


Wrong. Just the opposite.

1Co 10:23-29 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (24) Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth. (25) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: (26) For the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof. (27) If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. (28) But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof: (29) Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience?

We are specifically not to hinder someone ELSE, who might be offended by that which is lawful for us to do. If the man says straight out, “this is offered in sacrifice unto idols,” you do not eat it for HIS sake, not your own. Otherwise, we are to eat what is presented before us, without questioning for HIS sake.

Your distortions of scripture are stunning.


23 posted on 03/29/2013 3:38:55 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
The Sabbath is dawning upon us and so I leave you with these words of Paul.

Rm 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as sinned without the Law shall also perish without the Law, and as many as sinned in the Law shall be judged by the Law. 13 For not the hearers of the Law are righteous in the sight of God, but the doers of the Law shall be declared right. 14 For when gentiles, who do not have the Law, by nature do what is in the Law, although not having the Law, they are a Law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or even excusing, 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men through Yeshua Messiah, according to my Good News.

Shabbat Shalom

24 posted on 03/29/2013 4:11:02 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

John 1:1 does not speak of the written Word—again, that’s a deceptive trick by the HRM. “Logos” focuses on the words of a speaker, or his utterances—not the message of the words themselves. That would be “rhema.”

John is saying that the voice of YHWH, or the utterance of YHWH became flesh.


25 posted on 03/30/2013 3:19:11 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: patlin

You are conflating justification and sanctification. One who is justified possesses the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the eternal Seal of redemption placed on His child eternally. If one possesses the Holy Spirit, there is no possibility that person could EVER go to hell. http://wayofthetabernacle.com/between_belief_salvation.htm


26 posted on 03/30/2013 3:19:11 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

And, such is the entirety of the “religion of Hebraic Roots.” Stunning distortions of scripture.

According to patlin’s religion, he will never be able to square Revelation 22:14-15 with his “under the law” error, and his “any sin will send you to hell” mentality. Both groups are in heaven—one has access to the kingdom of YHWH (the temple), and one group doesn’t. The former sacrificed their flesh, the latter didn’t. According to patlin’s “theology,” the latter group cannot be there (even though, at that point in John’s Revelation, the devil, his demons, and the unbelievers have all been cast into the lake of fire).

You see, were patlin to understand the truth in those two verses, his entire system of belief would fall apart. It will eventually anyway, for the moment he attempts to justify himself to a holy God, he’ll realize just how gross his error is.

http://wayofthetabernacle.com/do_sinners_go_to_heaven.htm


27 posted on 03/30/2013 3:29:33 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: patlin

Hebrews 11:39 is speaking about those who lived by faith before the Spirit (promise) was poured out on all mankind. So, what you call a “theory” holds up just fine (and always will).

And, 1 Corinthians 11:1 is dealing with sanctification, not justification—again, another difficult concept for HRMers.


28 posted on 03/30/2013 7:21:22 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: WayoftheTab

THANK YOU, Your testimony/article above was some of the best writing on the HRM I have found. And this comment exchange here was an awesome read. THANKS


29 posted on 04/18/2013 2:58:41 PM PDT by damonw
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To: WayoftheTab
John 1:1 does not speak of the written Word

Then what word does it speak of since The Word said Himself in Lk 24 that all that was written, was written about Him?

30 posted on 04/20/2013 9:02:57 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: WayoftheTab
John 3:36 "He who believes(G4100-trusts in) in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe(G544-obeys not) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The Son is the Word of God. The Word of God defined His Word in Lk 24 as Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. There was no New Testament, so to believe as those believed when He was here in the flesh, we must believe all that He spoke prior which was no different than what He spoke in the flesh. This is called being 'one' and since God does not change, neither does His Word, the same yesterday, today and forever.

Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

There is not one prophecy about a Messiah who comes to do it all for us so we no longer have to obey the commands. NONE!!! There is 'ONE' God, the is 'ONE' Word of God and that ONE Word is for all for all times. Ecc 12:13-14 - the duty of ALL MANKIND! Fear God and obey His commands.

The one who trusts in the Word of God, does the Word of God. The one who doesn't trust in the Word of God does not obey the Word of God. It is really very simple as our God is not a complicated God and neither is He the author of confusion. Lawlessness begets confusion, lawfulness begets harmony and peace. Then there is also the "if, then" scenario. If we will, then He will .. 2 Chron 7:14 as well as the first time the gospel message was uttered, Ex 19:5-6, Heb 4:2, 1Pet 2:9-10. The same gospel message then & now. Acts 7:37-39

31 posted on 04/20/2013 9:20:53 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

Having been out of town for a couple months, I have not been able to reply to patlin.

What patlin claims is largely refuted in the article (and by the Holy Spirit). However, to this latest fallacious assertion, that the truth of YHWH was complete and fulfilled while the Messiah walked the earth, Christ Himself succinctly refutes that:

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.” John 16:12-13

It is no coincidence that the HRM preachers of the law flee from forthright discussions about the role and authority of the Holy Spirit, for those who preach the written law of the Old Covenant actually preach against the Holy Spirit (who is the fulfilled Law of YHWH).


32 posted on 07/08/2013 2:45:16 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: WayoftheTab

Is or is not Messiah the WHOLE Word of God from beginning to end that put on flesh? And if your response is yes, then how can He deny any part of Himself and still be the perfect sacrifice for our sins as in denying any part of Him is for us, His sacrifice is then made imperfect.


33 posted on 07/14/2013 12:34:41 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

You are still missing what the “Word of YHWH” is, confusing it with the written word (which would be “rhema” in the Greek). The “Word” that put on flesh is “logos,” which is the utterance, or spoken word, of YHWH. This is the basis of many of the HRM heresies—claiming that the spoken Word of YHWH equates to His written word.

The reason for the confusion is that the preachers of the law (HRM) are largely unfamiliar with Who it is that is the Voice of YHWH to the bride, for their very belief system is based on a gross neglect and refutation of the role and authority of the Holy Spirit.


34 posted on 07/25/2013 1:12:09 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: patlin
because of the lies we inherited from the early church fathers of the 4th century who thought to change His times and Laws.

My heart tells me I should try to obey Gods directions. Which lies do you think the early church added or omitted?

35 posted on 07/25/2013 2:45:07 PM PDT by winodog
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To: winodog
My heart tells me

Then I would tell you to start exactly where the Roman Christian system told us to start when we were impressionable youth, a doctrine which it holds to this day but with a bit of a different turn than that which they teach.

Start in John 1 and read through verse 18, then go back to John 1:1 and go where it says to go, in the beginning, not 2/3 the way through God's Word so that when you get back to John 1:1, you will understand the religious political climate as well as the foundation of the reason in which Messiah had to come and suffer first and the importance of the players in the last 1/3 of the book.

Is 46:10 declaring from the beginning, the end, and from old, that which has yet been done, saying, “My counsel does stand, and My delight I do”

John 5:46 For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words.

Messiah is all over Scripture beginning in Genesis 1:1. One’s heart just needs to be in a state of humility to accept that those they trusted to give them the truth either deceived them out of their own ignorance, or worse, out of love of the flesh and a paycheck over the welfare of His flock. Once one has come to that state of humility and is open to receive His truth, His Spirit of Truth will guide them to and in His Truth. But don't forget to count the cost because it will cost one loved ones, friends and possibly more just as it did Messiah and all those who followed Him.

There is a yearly Torah cycle that we study every year according to God's calendar called Torah Parasha (weekly Torah portions that include the Prophets and the NT). There are many congregations with archives of these weekly studies based on a Messianic/Hebrew Roots foundation. I started with Mark Biltz teachings at El Shaddai Ministries [dot] us. But you may find another congregation suits your needs and personality better. All I can suggest is pray and then go seek the one that is meant for you. When you find it, you will know in your heart that is where you are to be at that time because it will feel right and you will be at total peace while the world is crumbling around us.

We just started a local congregation a couple of months ago, there may be one in your area but if not there are many that live feed every Sabbath. But is you are tough and you feel you can "handle the truth" with a no holds bar, bold and plain speaking truth, as bold and plain speaking as Nicholson, then go visit Steve Berkson [dot] Podomatic [dot] com and begin with his teaching on the fear of Yahweh, then go to the Relationship between Salvation, Faith and Works and then Beware False Prophets. There are dozens upon dozens of videos on youtube about the truth of the lies of our church fathers which their writings bear out this truth as well as their current church records. The sect of the Nazarenes of Acts is not the church and they admit it, all of them and there has recently been discovery of ancient writings substantiating what we can read in current archives of later documents.

Messiah is restoring His house, just be careful not to get sucked into a congregation that stills holds to and imposes some of the traditions and oral laws of Judaism that were nailed to the stake on the flock. Learn to eat the meat and spit out the dead bones where in there is no profit.

36 posted on 07/25/2013 7:35:46 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: winodog
2 easy videos to get you going

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/rico/Mithras_part1/index.html

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/rico/Mithras_part2/index.html

37 posted on 07/25/2013 7:40:15 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: winodog

Typical straw man argument of the HRM heretics: to claim that one who proclaims the truth of the Holy Spirit’s role and authority in the life of the bride is influenced by fourth-century Constantinian Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth, patlin; and, while your heart might be providing a proper message, your brain still looks in the wrong place (written law of the old covenant). YHWH’s direction comes directly from His Voice, otherwise known as His Holy Spirit. Always has, always will.


38 posted on 07/26/2013 7:22:01 AM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: WayoftheTab

I did a lot of reading at your links yesterday. I have a hard time with the not being filled with the Holy Ghost at the time of turning my life and will over to Jesus” part.

Although it is hard to believe that God dwells in me while I do the “rotten” deeds of my flesh. I like the idea of him indwelling me when his good work is completed.


39 posted on 07/26/2013 8:08:44 AM PDT by winodog
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To: patlin

Thank you I will watch them right now


40 posted on 07/26/2013 8:09:16 AM PDT by winodog
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