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Why Not Hebraic Roots? The False Teachings of the Hebraic Roots Movement
The Way of the Tabernacle ^ | 3/23/13 | Dean Haskins

Posted on 03/25/2013 10:01:21 AM PDT by WayoftheTab

Why Not Hebraic Roots?

The False Teachings of the Hebraic Roots Movement

The burden I feel to write this article comes from a very personal journey that my wife and I have traveled, and actually, are still navigating. Having grown up in the mainstream evangelical church, I was thoroughly indoctrinated in its most common teachings and traditions. My wife, being reared in Roman Catholicism, was taught from a different perspective; but while much of the “works-based” beliefs that had been instilled in her were diametrically opposed to the “works-less” teachings of evangelicalism, there were still several similarities in general understandings and traditions.

My door into recognizing the multitudes of error that are embraced by most of what calls itself the “church” came through the simple tradition of the “Christ-mass.” Obviously, like most of the rest of the civilized world, this seemingly harmless family-oriented holiday was always a special time of the year for me, until, several years ago, something led me to dig a little into its origins and meanings (http://wayofthetabernacle.com/holydays1.htm), and the eventual illumination of the truth actually startled me at first. If what I had been taught about this was not true, then what else did I believe that wasn't so? It turned out that there were many such things. But, it wasn't until several years later that my wife started realizing the same things, and walked through that door, joining me on this journey.

Once we were united in the understanding that we weren't being given the whole truth from the “church,” we started searching for other like-minded believers from whom we could learn and with whom we could fellowship. I did some initial internet searching, and found a movement that proclaimed, quite loudly, the pagan error of Christ-mass and Easter, and also taught the importance of YHWH's Sabbaths (weekly and feast days), so we were immediately drawn to them. We also found some folks in our area who seemed to understand the same truths, so we all started meeting together. On the internet, we were drawn to the teachings of organizations like Passion for Truth Ministries and 119 Ministries (also known as testeverything.net).

Ultimately, after thoroughly examining the most-touted tenets of these HRM groups, we found them to be spreading gross error, and preaching a “different gospel.” I often find myself in conversations with some of their adherents on social media websites, and the brainwashing that has resulted from slick ad campaigns and catchy marketing slogans is not only immediately apparent with their followers, their false teachings appear to be spreading rampantly, and misleading many people.

During a particularly long online dialog, I began to feel an incredible burden for these folks, as there is obviously much confusion over the differences in their teachings and the Word, and it has become apparent that at least some of these people have placed their eternal security in the wrong things—and are not even familiar with that which is the basis of salvation.

This article is an effort to expose some of the methods of deception, and the most common false teachings of what has become known as the “Hebraic Roots Movement” (HRM).

Misinterpretation/Misapplication of Scripture

One of the most prevalent deceptive practices of the HRM is to misinterpret scripture deliberately, or to apply scripture in a way that distorts its real meaning. For example, as discussed here http://wayofthetabernacle.com/pigs_an_abomination.htm) and here (http://wayofthetabernacle.com/what_is_unclean.htm), the New Testament is clear that we are no longer under the dietary regulations that were part of the ceremonial laws of the old covenant; however, because that doesn't jibe with the HRM main teachings (that believers are still under the law), they purposely misinterpret several scriptures, and one of their blatant misapplications pertains to the vision the Apostle Peter received from YHWH in Acts 10 and 11.

As we know, Peter's vision was of many animals that had been classified as “unclean” for the Jews to eat under the ceremonial laws, and, in the vision, YHWH specifically told Peter to kill and eat. Peter protested, explaining that he had never eaten anything that the law called unclean, but YHWH told him not to call unclean that which He had made clean. In fact, because of Peter's disbelief, YHWH showed him the vision three times!

Of course, Peter later recounted the vision for others and stated that it meant that, even though he was a Jew, he was no longer to regard Gentiles as “off limits,” which is what the ceremonial laws had previously forced him to do.

Those in the HRM perform some incredible mental gymnastics with this one by contending that, after Peter realized the full meaning of the vision, he then somehow understood that YHWH was only kidding about His command to “kill and eat.” They state that the vision was only used as a metaphor, and that Peter knew that YHWH didn't mean for him to do what he was told to do. The most amazing aspect of their teaching on this is that there are people who actually believe their nonsense.

The message of the vision was clear to Peter—that the laws that had kept Jews and Gentiles separate had been removed. If there were no longer any legal prohibition against Jews mingling with Gentiles, then the laws forcing their separation could no longer be applied. The ceremonial laws, or that which determined clean vs. unclean, were spiritual in nature. That the law made certain foods “unclean” for Jews to eat didn't mean that the food was not fit for human consumption, but that disobedience defiled a person (or made him “unclean”). Once those laws were no longer, there was no such thing as “unclean” food. Those laws being abolished through Christ is the subject of Ephesians 2. To further demonstrate that being unclean (defiled) had nothing to do with the food itself, read Ezra 2:62, where “unclean” applied to a priest's lack of genealogical records. If “unclean, meant “unhealthy,” then that verse would be absurd. It was wholly a spiritual construct.

Furthermore, their teaching in this is easily shown to be false by Paul's rebuke of Peter in Galatians 2:11-21, for Peter had acted on the message of his vision, and had started eating with Gentiles in their homes (which was previously forbidden by the ceremonial laws) until some Jews, who had not yet properly apportioned Christ's work on Calvary, started condemning Peter's actions, and he withdrew from the Gentiles. Paul said that Peter had condemned himself because of his hypocrisy. That alone (even if there weren't other New Testament passages teaching this truth) thoroughly debunks this HRM tenet to be heresy, for if those laws had still applied, Paul would not have rebuked Peter for his hypocrisy, but for his breaking of the ceremonial laws.

Of course, those in the HRM have a difficult time with the Apostle Paul, as his teachings are contrary to their beliefs. Their attitudes about Paul range from an assertion that they are the only ones who truly understand him (even though it was the Jews of Paul's day, who had lived under the law of the old covenant, who had the most difficulty grasping the truths that Paul taught), to those who reject Paul's teachings as fraudulent—some going so far as to claim that Paul was “Satan in the flesh.” Not fully embracing the entirety of Paul's writings is an immediate indication that one embraces false teachings.

Changing the Very Words of Scripture

One of the most common marketing slogans of the HRM is the false teaching that the Messiah is the “Living Torah.” The reason this deception is effective is that, since the HRM seeks to keep people bound to the written law contained in what is known as the “Torah” (first five books of the Bible), equating that section of scripture with Christ essentially suggests that, if one rejects the notion that we are under that law, then he also rejects Christ to some degree.

But, by what method do they make this claim? They literally change a word in scripture itself. John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with YHWH, and the Word was YHWH.” John is speaking here of Christ (see: Revelation 19:13). So, the Word being Christ, the HRM asserts that the Torah is the earliest section of the scriptures, and the scriptures are referred to as the “Word,” so we can simply substitute “Word” with “Torah.” The problem is, that completely changes the actual word that is used in the verse. If the verse were talking about the written word, then “torah” could be an acceptable Hebrew word, and “rhema” would be its Greek equivalent.

However, the word John uses doesn't focus on the written word, or the subject of words at all, but on the speaker of the words. In the Greek, the word used is “logos,” and its Hebrew equivalent is “dabar.” So, to make their claim, they actually change scripture itself to fit their false teaching. This is discussed in greater depth here, but one additional fact that debunks their claims about Christ being the “Living Torah,” is their accompanying claim that He never broke the written law contained in the Torah. That assertion is demonstrably false, and so is their teaching on this.

Additionally, while I do not own a copy of their “Hebraic Roots Bible (copyright 1998),” I have had some who have tried to bolster their false claims by copying and pasting passages from that version on a few instances. In my recollection of the few passages that have been shared with me, I believe there was deception and error in every one of them.

Romans 6:14 states, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.” But, since not being under the law negates the whole “religion” of the HRM, their bible adds a parenthetical remark to muddle what is clearly said. It has, “. . . for you are not under the (penalty of breaking the) law.” They have to make sure that their adherents believe they are still under the law, even though that contradicts what Paul plainly teaches.

In Hebrews 10:16, we are told “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” In the Hebraic Roots Bible, “laws” is replaced by “Torah,” even though there is nothing in the text that refers to the first five books of the Bible. The verse is speaking of the Holy Spirit, and it tells how YHWH will make His will known to His children. By using the Hebrew word “torah,” one could understand it as His “instructions,” which would certainly not be unfaithful to the original text. However, capitalizing the word makes it a clear deception, as YHWH is not telling us that He will write the first five books of the Bible on our hearts and minds. This is a blatant perversion of YHWH's Word, but one that is used to try to keep people bound to that from which Christ has freed them.

I can only assume, based on the mountains of propaganda I've seen on the internet, and these examples, that there are probably many instances where the scriptural texts have been changed by their deliberate misuse of “Torah,” deceptively inserting it in place of the actual words that were used.

Revelation 22:14-15 describes two groups of people—those who have access to the New Jerusalem, which is the heavenly temple within the kingdom of heaven, and those who do not have access to it. A detailed explanation of these two groups can be found here (http://wayofthetabernacle.com/do_sinners_go_to_heaven.htm), but for our purposes, understand that what is described in these two verses occurs within the kingdom of heaven, and delineates those who have access to the temple, and those who must remain outside the gates of the temple—but they are all in heaven, as the devil, his demons, and the unbelievers have all been cast into the lake of fire by this point in Revelation.

Now, here's what we're told in those two verses: (14) Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. (15) Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

But, in the Hebraic Roots Bible, they have replaced the word “Outside” with “And not there.” So, they have completely changed what the verse states, and have taken those who scripture says will be in heaven, and have placed them elsewhere (or “not there”). Let me clarify it this way: if one speaks of those who are standing inside his house, and those who are standing outside his house, could those standing outside his house properly be defined as “not there”? This is just a deceptive little twisting that attempts to support their false teaching that one must “obey the Torah” to see heaven. That's not what scripture teaches.

Clinging to the Symbols and Rejecting the Real Substance

While most people easily recognize much of the symbolism in the Bible, the HRM misses a big one, and in so doing, they create a belief system that contradicts the message of the entire Word of YHWH. It is easy to understand the symbolism of something like the lamb that is part of the Passover Seder, and that our redemption is not in that, but in what it symbolized—the Perfect Lamb of YHWH. The Apostle Paul teaches that earthly marriage is a symbol of the Messiah and His bride. In fact, the Ark of the Covenant, barley, the tabernacle, the temple, the priesthood, and even the ancient Jewish people, are all foreshadows, or symbols, of the bride. The HRM actually misses that last one, though, and they do not understand that the Jewish people only symbolized the bride, and the written law that was given to them symbolized the giving of the Holy Spirit to the bride.

This is, essentially, what Christ's Sermon on the Mount was about (http://wayofthetabernacle.com/SOM_and_Law.htm). The written law governed only the physical man in outward displays of relational living, regulated the system of animal sacrifice, and kept the Jews separated from the Gentiles. But, the point that Christ taught was that, through His work of redemption, the real substance of His commandments, or will, was the internal force of the Holy Spirit in the life of the bride. The real point of the law was not to govern the physical man (which is destined for death), but the spiritual man (which receives life from the Holy Spirit). Moreover, by removing the details, or perfection that was demanded by the written law (Colossians 2:14), the believer is free to live in the liberty of the Spirit without fear of not executing His will perfectly. YHWH desires His children to identify with Him, and it is the Holy Spirit that will teach the believer how to do that—not as a matter of following a list of written rules, but from a heart that desires to please Him.

Furthermore, in not grasping the rich symbolism YHWH utilized to teach the bride about His will for her, the HRM preaches the symbols while rejecting the real substance those symbols foreshadowed—often creating illogical defenses of their false teachings. When confronted with the inconsistency of claiming believers are under the written law of the old covenant, but are not required to obey the sacrificial laws, they claim that it is because there is no temple, and since those sacrifices were to be done there, then it is impossible to properly execute the requirements of those laws.

But, that ignores the real substance of what the animal sacrifices symbolize in the life of the bride, and completely misses what, or who, the temple actually is. Animal sacrifices were a “crucifixion” of flesh, and the temple was a picture of the bride. It's not that flesh sacrifices are no longer part of YHWH's will for us, it is that those sacrifices were symbolic of the bride (temple) sacrificing her flesh to purify herself, or to make herself holy (1 Peter 1:16).

And, the ceremonial laws that regulated “clean vs. unclean” kept Jews separated from Gentiles, which symbolized the bride keeping herself separate from the world. In teaching that those physical laws remain, the HRM not only directly contradicts what we're taught in Ephesians 2 (as well as several other passages), it perverts the true meaning of what those laws symbolized—keeping its adherents bound to written physical rules, when the whole application was supposed to be a spiritual one. YHWH's will for the bride has nothing to do with food or drink or clothing, for those were just pictures representing the true application, which is that He desires His children to keep themselves from being defiled by the world.

Their vast error in this has actually produced teachings that fully misrepresent who the House of Israel and the House of Judah are, and claim that prophecies concerning them refer to literal blood Jews, when they actually represent the bride and the rest of the wedding party (OT saints and Tribulation saints). The HRM makes the preposterous claim that those who are a part of the bride have Jewish blood somewhere in their lineage, and that they are part of the lost tribes of ancient Israel. To make this wild stretch, they must completely reject scriptural teachings such as “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Yahoshua the Messiah.” (Galatians 3:28)

It is a foolish embrace of shadows, rather than applying what those symbols actually represented. By doing that, they are not living in truth, they are not living in the life of the Spirit; they are living in a picture, and missing the life and peace that the real substance gives. They demand compliance to that from which Christ freed us, and condemn anyone who exposes their deception and misrepresentation.

Paul teaches in Galatians 2 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for YHWH. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

To embrace the false teachings of the HRM is to proclaim that Christ died for nothing. My desire in writing this article is to inform those who might be tempted to fall for their false teachings to flee from everything they promote and proclaim, for those who teach such heresies are to be rebuked, not embraced. And, for those who already find themselves bound to these false teachings to turn away from them to the truth of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit will never remain quiet over a true believer's dabbling in these clear spiritual errors. The Holy Spirit gives life, but the false teachings of the HRM give nothing but death and condemnation in a deceptive package of false spirituality.

The Holy Spirit is the one who confirms that someone is YHWH's child (http://wayofthetabernacle.com/haggadah.htm), and that has nothing whatsoever to do with the written law of the old covenant. Believing that one can be made pure through that written law doesn't promote holiness before YHWH, it promotes self-righteousness and a spirit of condemnation toward others—which is why the main message they preach far and wide typically focuses on some aspect of the “Torah.” That sounds a whole lot like the Pharisees of Christ's time, doesn't it? Well, it is.


TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: 201303; 201304; bonneylake; elshaddaiministries; falseteaching; hebraicroots; law; markbiltz; spirit; washington
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To: patlin

” So please do not tell me that what goes in our mouths does not matter because that is what started it all in the first place. “


It doesn’t matter. What comes out of the mouth is indeed more important:

Mat 15:17-20 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? (18) But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. (19) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: (20) These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Also read Romans 14 and 1 Cor 10.

Wash and repeat, wash and repeat, until your heresy is cleaned entirely.


21 posted on 03/29/2013 1:32:44 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
What comes out of the mouth is indeed more important

ABSOLUTELY! I am in agreement here but that does not negate our responsibility and duty to walk, teach and speak His truth as He gave it to us to walk, teach and speak.

Rm 14 is about fasting and not eating food sacrificed to idols, 1Cor 10 about giving thanks to God for all that He created to be eaten and not letting anyone hinder us in our walk with Yeshua.

And Mt 15 is not about what is defined as food, but is about the legalism of the oral law of Judaism and their hand-washing laws that put yokes on men where Yahweh put no yokes on men. Now hand-washing before eating is a good thing, it is just not a command of Yahweh.

Yeshua in Mt 15:19 speaks of blasphemies and false witnessing, these are things that are said that are not true and evil speaking against the authority of Yahweh, both of which contain that which is direct opposition what Yeshua walked and taught which is obedience to the Father from a circumcised heart.

In Lk 24, Yeshua defined His Scriptures for us that we are to use to seek out Him and His truth and Yeshua defines these Scriptures as Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms, so everything that Yeshua, Paul and all the other apostles speak must align with that which Yeshua gave us to seek out. If they don't, then it is a new gospel that Yeshua did not preach.

The Father doesn't wait a decade or more to reveal His truth, He prophesies before hand what will be and then He gives it when He or His representative is present as He did at Mt Sinai. All the apostles confirm that the covenant given at Mt Sinai is the one and the same covenant given to us, the only difference is that we now have it in its fullest meaning that was prophesied to happen upon Yeshua’s death, burial and resurrection.

Nothing new, but all simply true as it has been from the beginning. If it doesn't have ‘hath God said’ or ‘God says’ before it, I believe it to be inspired but inspired is not the same as directly from the horse's mouth as it was at Mt Sinai.

2Tim 3:14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Yeshua Messiah. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What Scriptures had Timothy known from his youth? Certainly not that which was written long after he became an adult and a disciple of Yeshua Messiah. All that which is right of Malachi did not exist in a formal scroll for ALL to read until centuries after Messiah's death. All that is and was, is and is to be was written long before Yeshua came in the flesh to lead and teach us how to walk in righteousness of the Father as He, Yeshua, walked in the righteousness of the Father.

Yeshua said in Mt 7 that those practicing lawlessness, He does not know them and they do not know Him. Christian doctrine, which includes my former state of spirituality, teaches a lawless gospel message in direct opposition to that of Yeshua. My Lutheran study bible admits it! So what does that say? It says they know it but their hearts are so hardened that they refuse to humble themselves to His truth so that they can keep walking in their own righteousness rather than His.

Whose righteousness do you want to be found in when He returns? His or the churches? Because it is only those walking in His righteousness that obtain the reward of the bride. Righteousness simply being doing that which is right in the eyes of the Father, not doing what is deemed to be right in the eyes of some religious zealots seeking their own righteousness as many of the Pharisees and scribes were doing with the Word of God that they had changed and continue to change. Christian Pharisees are a dime a dozen, just as Jewish ones are to this very day. The only difference, the Jewish ones admit to being Pharisees who claim to have the authority to change God's instructions and heap unwanted yokes and burdens on the people.

Christian doctrine absolutely teaches works based salvation with their sacraments. Every one of them!!! If food laws are so trivial, then I guess we can put them under the 'least' of His commands which Yeshua said we are not to teach anyone that it is ok to disobey even the least.

Not one jott or one tittle shall fall, ever! His Word is eternal and for all mankind. (Ecc 12:13-14)

22 posted on 03/29/2013 3:18:17 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

“Rm 14 is about fasting and not eating food sacrificed to idols,”


Wrong.

Rom 14:1-6 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. (2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. (3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. (4) Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

No mention of fasting. In fact, the person who chooses to eat “only herbs” is called “weak in the faith” compared to the person who believes he can eat all things. Fasting is never called a “weakness” in scripture.

“1Cor 10 about giving thanks to God for all that He created to be eaten and not letting anyone hinder us in our walk with Yeshua.”


Wrong. Just the opposite.

1Co 10:23-29 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (24) Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth. (25) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: (26) For the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof. (27) If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. (28) But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof: (29) Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience?

We are specifically not to hinder someone ELSE, who might be offended by that which is lawful for us to do. If the man says straight out, “this is offered in sacrifice unto idols,” you do not eat it for HIS sake, not your own. Otherwise, we are to eat what is presented before us, without questioning for HIS sake.

Your distortions of scripture are stunning.


23 posted on 03/29/2013 3:38:55 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
The Sabbath is dawning upon us and so I leave you with these words of Paul.

Rm 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as sinned without the Law shall also perish without the Law, and as many as sinned in the Law shall be judged by the Law. 13 For not the hearers of the Law are righteous in the sight of God, but the doers of the Law shall be declared right. 14 For when gentiles, who do not have the Law, by nature do what is in the Law, although not having the Law, they are a Law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or even excusing, 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men through Yeshua Messiah, according to my Good News.

Shabbat Shalom

24 posted on 03/29/2013 4:11:02 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

John 1:1 does not speak of the written Word—again, that’s a deceptive trick by the HRM. “Logos” focuses on the words of a speaker, or his utterances—not the message of the words themselves. That would be “rhema.”

John is saying that the voice of YHWH, or the utterance of YHWH became flesh.


25 posted on 03/30/2013 3:19:11 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: patlin

You are conflating justification and sanctification. One who is justified possesses the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the eternal Seal of redemption placed on His child eternally. If one possesses the Holy Spirit, there is no possibility that person could EVER go to hell. http://wayofthetabernacle.com/between_belief_salvation.htm


26 posted on 03/30/2013 3:19:11 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

And, such is the entirety of the “religion of Hebraic Roots.” Stunning distortions of scripture.

According to patlin’s religion, he will never be able to square Revelation 22:14-15 with his “under the law” error, and his “any sin will send you to hell” mentality. Both groups are in heaven—one has access to the kingdom of YHWH (the temple), and one group doesn’t. The former sacrificed their flesh, the latter didn’t. According to patlin’s “theology,” the latter group cannot be there (even though, at that point in John’s Revelation, the devil, his demons, and the unbelievers have all been cast into the lake of fire).

You see, were patlin to understand the truth in those two verses, his entire system of belief would fall apart. It will eventually anyway, for the moment he attempts to justify himself to a holy God, he’ll realize just how gross his error is.

http://wayofthetabernacle.com/do_sinners_go_to_heaven.htm


27 posted on 03/30/2013 3:29:33 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: patlin

Hebrews 11:39 is speaking about those who lived by faith before the Spirit (promise) was poured out on all mankind. So, what you call a “theory” holds up just fine (and always will).

And, 1 Corinthians 11:1 is dealing with sanctification, not justification—again, another difficult concept for HRMers.


28 posted on 03/30/2013 7:21:22 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: WayoftheTab

THANK YOU, Your testimony/article above was some of the best writing on the HRM I have found. And this comment exchange here was an awesome read. THANKS


29 posted on 04/18/2013 2:58:41 PM PDT by damonw
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To: WayoftheTab
John 1:1 does not speak of the written Word

Then what word does it speak of since The Word said Himself in Lk 24 that all that was written, was written about Him?

30 posted on 04/20/2013 9:02:57 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: WayoftheTab
John 3:36 "He who believes(G4100-trusts in) in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe(G544-obeys not) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The Son is the Word of God. The Word of God defined His Word in Lk 24 as Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. There was no New Testament, so to believe as those believed when He was here in the flesh, we must believe all that He spoke prior which was no different than what He spoke in the flesh. This is called being 'one' and since God does not change, neither does His Word, the same yesterday, today and forever.

Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

There is not one prophecy about a Messiah who comes to do it all for us so we no longer have to obey the commands. NONE!!! There is 'ONE' God, the is 'ONE' Word of God and that ONE Word is for all for all times. Ecc 12:13-14 - the duty of ALL MANKIND! Fear God and obey His commands.

The one who trusts in the Word of God, does the Word of God. The one who doesn't trust in the Word of God does not obey the Word of God. It is really very simple as our God is not a complicated God and neither is He the author of confusion. Lawlessness begets confusion, lawfulness begets harmony and peace. Then there is also the "if, then" scenario. If we will, then He will .. 2 Chron 7:14 as well as the first time the gospel message was uttered, Ex 19:5-6, Heb 4:2, 1Pet 2:9-10. The same gospel message then & now. Acts 7:37-39

31 posted on 04/20/2013 9:20:53 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

Having been out of town for a couple months, I have not been able to reply to patlin.

What patlin claims is largely refuted in the article (and by the Holy Spirit). However, to this latest fallacious assertion, that the truth of YHWH was complete and fulfilled while the Messiah walked the earth, Christ Himself succinctly refutes that:

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.” John 16:12-13

It is no coincidence that the HRM preachers of the law flee from forthright discussions about the role and authority of the Holy Spirit, for those who preach the written law of the Old Covenant actually preach against the Holy Spirit (who is the fulfilled Law of YHWH).


32 posted on 07/08/2013 2:45:16 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: WayoftheTab

Is or is not Messiah the WHOLE Word of God from beginning to end that put on flesh? And if your response is yes, then how can He deny any part of Himself and still be the perfect sacrifice for our sins as in denying any part of Him is for us, His sacrifice is then made imperfect.


33 posted on 07/14/2013 12:34:41 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

You are still missing what the “Word of YHWH” is, confusing it with the written word (which would be “rhema” in the Greek). The “Word” that put on flesh is “logos,” which is the utterance, or spoken word, of YHWH. This is the basis of many of the HRM heresies—claiming that the spoken Word of YHWH equates to His written word.

The reason for the confusion is that the preachers of the law (HRM) are largely unfamiliar with Who it is that is the Voice of YHWH to the bride, for their very belief system is based on a gross neglect and refutation of the role and authority of the Holy Spirit.


34 posted on 07/25/2013 1:12:09 PM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: patlin
because of the lies we inherited from the early church fathers of the 4th century who thought to change His times and Laws.

My heart tells me I should try to obey Gods directions. Which lies do you think the early church added or omitted?

35 posted on 07/25/2013 2:45:07 PM PDT by winodog
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To: winodog
My heart tells me

Then I would tell you to start exactly where the Roman Christian system told us to start when we were impressionable youth, a doctrine which it holds to this day but with a bit of a different turn than that which they teach.

Start in John 1 and read through verse 18, then go back to John 1:1 and go where it says to go, in the beginning, not 2/3 the way through God's Word so that when you get back to John 1:1, you will understand the religious political climate as well as the foundation of the reason in which Messiah had to come and suffer first and the importance of the players in the last 1/3 of the book.

Is 46:10 declaring from the beginning, the end, and from old, that which has yet been done, saying, “My counsel does stand, and My delight I do”

John 5:46 For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words.

Messiah is all over Scripture beginning in Genesis 1:1. One’s heart just needs to be in a state of humility to accept that those they trusted to give them the truth either deceived them out of their own ignorance, or worse, out of love of the flesh and a paycheck over the welfare of His flock. Once one has come to that state of humility and is open to receive His truth, His Spirit of Truth will guide them to and in His Truth. But don't forget to count the cost because it will cost one loved ones, friends and possibly more just as it did Messiah and all those who followed Him.

There is a yearly Torah cycle that we study every year according to God's calendar called Torah Parasha (weekly Torah portions that include the Prophets and the NT). There are many congregations with archives of these weekly studies based on a Messianic/Hebrew Roots foundation. I started with Mark Biltz teachings at El Shaddai Ministries [dot] us. But you may find another congregation suits your needs and personality better. All I can suggest is pray and then go seek the one that is meant for you. When you find it, you will know in your heart that is where you are to be at that time because it will feel right and you will be at total peace while the world is crumbling around us.

We just started a local congregation a couple of months ago, there may be one in your area but if not there are many that live feed every Sabbath. But is you are tough and you feel you can "handle the truth" with a no holds bar, bold and plain speaking truth, as bold and plain speaking as Nicholson, then go visit Steve Berkson [dot] Podomatic [dot] com and begin with his teaching on the fear of Yahweh, then go to the Relationship between Salvation, Faith and Works and then Beware False Prophets. There are dozens upon dozens of videos on youtube about the truth of the lies of our church fathers which their writings bear out this truth as well as their current church records. The sect of the Nazarenes of Acts is not the church and they admit it, all of them and there has recently been discovery of ancient writings substantiating what we can read in current archives of later documents.

Messiah is restoring His house, just be careful not to get sucked into a congregation that stills holds to and imposes some of the traditions and oral laws of Judaism that were nailed to the stake on the flock. Learn to eat the meat and spit out the dead bones where in there is no profit.

36 posted on 07/25/2013 7:35:46 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: winodog
2 easy videos to get you going

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/rico/Mithras_part1/index.html

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/rico/Mithras_part2/index.html

37 posted on 07/25/2013 7:40:15 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: winodog

Typical straw man argument of the HRM heretics: to claim that one who proclaims the truth of the Holy Spirit’s role and authority in the life of the bride is influenced by fourth-century Constantinian Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth, patlin; and, while your heart might be providing a proper message, your brain still looks in the wrong place (written law of the old covenant). YHWH’s direction comes directly from His Voice, otherwise known as His Holy Spirit. Always has, always will.


38 posted on 07/26/2013 7:22:01 AM PDT by WayoftheTab
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To: WayoftheTab

I did a lot of reading at your links yesterday. I have a hard time with the not being filled with the Holy Ghost at the time of turning my life and will over to Jesus” part.

Although it is hard to believe that God dwells in me while I do the “rotten” deeds of my flesh. I like the idea of him indwelling me when his good work is completed.


39 posted on 07/26/2013 8:08:44 AM PDT by winodog
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To: patlin

Thank you I will watch them right now


40 posted on 07/26/2013 8:09:16 AM PDT by winodog
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