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Diana Funeral Marked Return to 'Catholic' England, Archbishop
The Daily Telegraph (UK) ^ | 3/25/13 | John Bingham

Posted on 03/26/2013 6:55:35 AM PDT by marshmallow

Acts such as showering the Princess’s hearse with flowers show that the public is reverting to a “Catholic” approach to death after centuries of protestant reserve, the Archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols suggested.

He said that the Princess’s funeral in 1997 marked a watershed in British history and would be remembered as the “end of the Reformation in England”.

Catholic practices such as prayers for the souls of the dead and a belief in saints, which were dismissed by protestant reformers in the 16th Century, are now being rediscovered, he said.

The recent growth in unofficial roadside shrines commemorating people killed in accidents – often filled with flowers photographs and mementos – has also been widely interpreted as marking a change in the way the British respond to death.

Interviewed in a BBC documentary about shrines and other places of religious significance in Britain, the Archbishop said that English people were rediscovering their ancient Catholic “voice”.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Prayer; Theology
KEYWORDS: anglican; come; europeanchristians; royals

1 posted on 03/26/2013 6:55:35 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

If only it were so.....the Churches are EMPTY, even the Catholic ones....very very sad.


2 posted on 03/26/2013 6:57:37 AM PDT by Ann Archy
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To: marshmallow

If I remember correctly, Princess Di was dabbling in everything but Christianity prior to her death.


3 posted on 03/26/2013 7:05:31 AM PDT by stars & stripes forever ((Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord!))
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To: marshmallow
I couldn't tell if the archbishop is Catholic or not.

What happened in England was not so much the Reformation as it was Henry VIII inflicting his will upon the people. He totally destroyed the role of charity in the country.

Before Henry's actions to secure a new wife for himself, the government played no role in caring for the poor and needy. The people did it themselves because the Church encouraged them to.

After Henry ransacked the monasteries, guess where all the poor went? To London.

By the time of Elizabeth so many poor beggars were moving to London that Parliament passed a series of poor laws - two consequences of begging were having a hole drilled through the beggar's ear and of course hanging.

No, England was a much kinder nation when the people controlled their own lives without the assistance of a monarch plying his own will.

4 posted on 03/26/2013 7:11:39 AM PDT by Slyfox (The Key to Marxism is Medicine ~ Vladimir Lenin)
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To: Slyfox

Very important points. Charity is such a good thing — it needs to be kept out of the hands of the government, because the government is inherently centered upon its own self-interest, which is inimical to the idea of charity. Churches, neighborhood groups, benevolent societies — the needy can and should be helped by caring people. But government only helps government.


5 posted on 03/26/2013 7:30:05 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The ballot box is a sham. Nothing will change until after the war.)
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To: Ann Archy
If only it were so.....the Churches are EMPTY, even the Catholic ones....very very sad.

I was at the 11:00 Latin mass at Farm Street Church (Jesuit) in Mayfair, London. I saw the 9:30 Mass let out - since my daughter and I arrived early. I was impressed with how full the church was for both masses.

On the other hand, I have noticed a decline in Mass attendance at home in the last few years.

6 posted on 03/26/2013 7:30:42 AM PDT by ALPAPilot
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To: Ann Archy
the Churches are EMPTY, even the Catholic ones

In my neck of the woods they are filling up with muslims. And I'm pretty far from civilization as I knew it.

7 posted on 03/26/2013 7:32:01 AM PDT by HomeAtLast ( You're either with the Tea Party, or you're with the EBT Party.)
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To: ALPAPilot

It matters not so much the numbers of people in the pews but instead the content of the hearts of the people who are there.


8 posted on 03/26/2013 7:43:38 AM PDT by longfellowsmuse (last of the living nomads)
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To: Slyfox

You ignore the effects of the enclosures for the depopulating the country. When lords discovered they could make more money selling wool to Belgian mills than they could raising foodstuffs from individual tenant plots they enclosed their lands, ousted most of the tenants and raised sheep. As to the Anglican Chuch and the Reformation, while the Anglicans do not have the panoply of saints the Romans do, they do celebrate saints by name. In fact their celebration of Francis Bernadone rivals any seen in Italy.The purifying of the Anglican Church was attempted by Knox and his followers and by the Puritan parlimentarians. Its success was modest in the end.


9 posted on 03/26/2013 7:53:32 AM PDT by xkaydet65
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To: ClearCase_guy
With charity, you have the option of giving to those in need.

With government, your assets are confiscated at gunpoint and used to buy votes.

Nothing charitable about the latter, and those dispensing it are giving away someone else's money.

10 posted on 03/26/2013 7:57:21 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: stars & stripes forever
"If I remember correctly, Princess Di was dabbling in everything but Christianity prior to her death."

That's correct. Diana was very much into the occult---psychics, astrologers, fortune tellers, and New Age practices such as crystals. She believed her grandmother watched over her as a ghost.

Sad.

11 posted on 03/26/2013 7:57:51 AM PDT by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: xkaydet65
Complex stuff, and I don't want to be too simplistic about it, but ...

Enclosure really became a big thing during the Tudor period, so it coincides with Henry's seizure of church land. England had been a farming society, with much land owned by the Church, with an understanding that "the commons" could be used to support local residents. The Acts of Enclosure took the lands from the Church and gave it to wealthy landowners. They decided that sheep were better than crops. Wool could be sold for cash across the Channel, so "the commons" disappeared and the landowners became far wealthier. The people suffered. The only recourse became government assistance.

As I said at the beginning, enclosure and the English Reformation are separate topics, but one feeds upon the other to some extent.

12 posted on 03/26/2013 8:07:14 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The ballot box is a sham. Nothing will change until after the war.)
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To: ClearCase_guy
I moved a little too fast -- Henry VIII weakened the church through the "Dissolution of the Monateries" and this largely took land out of church control and gave it to wealthy landowners. As a secondary step, the Acts of Enclosure helped to change the use to which the land was being put, and thereby reduced "the commons".

In my earlier post, I indicated that the Acts of Enclosure took land away from the Church, and that is not an accurate statement.

13 posted on 03/26/2013 8:10:53 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The ballot box is a sham. Nothing will change until after the war.)
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To: ALPAPilot

I LOVE the Farm Street Church!!! Used to be my Church and I just went to Mass there in November, but the Church was not even half full.


14 posted on 03/26/2013 8:58:39 AM PDT by Ann Archy
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To: ALPAPilot
I was at the 11:00 Latin mass at Farm Street Church (Jesuit) in Mayfair, London.

Whatever you do, DON'T stop to stay at a hotel.


15 posted on 03/26/2013 9:00:54 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana (HRC:"Sometimes she looks like a primary schoolgirl and sometimes a pensioner going shopping,"-NKorea)
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To: xkaydet65

I see you are a teacher from your profile page. Then you must know that no one can describe the entire complicated history of England adequately in one paragraph, especially when neither David Hume nor John Lingard could do it in less than two volumes.


16 posted on 03/26/2013 9:09:52 AM PDT by Slyfox (The Key to Marxism is Medicine ~ Vladimir Lenin)
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To: CatherineofAragon

I’m a Christian, and I am fascinated by the occult.

I don’t “dabble” in it, though. I read about it. “Know your enemey”, don’t you know?

Practice it? I would beafraid to even try, and I don’t want power, the purpose of dabbling in the occult to begin with. I just want to know what’s going on.

But from what I read, even by many occultists, it is not something to fool around with.


17 posted on 03/26/2013 9:22:48 AM PDT by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: marshmallow
The recent growth in unofficial roadside shrines commemorating people killed in accidents – often filled with flowers photographs and mementos

When those first started showing up here a few decades ago, it was was the first true sign that America was slipping into becoming a dingy third world nation and starting to resemble Mexico.

18 posted on 03/26/2013 9:25:51 AM PDT by ansel12 (" I would not be in the United States Senate if it wasnt for Sarah Palin " Cruz said.)
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To: chesley

You’re absolutely right, it IS nothing to fool with.

I think we should objectively be familiar with the tools of the occult, but with all due respect, being “fascinated” by it is worrisome, especially as you’re a Christian.


19 posted on 03/26/2013 9:37:41 AM PDT by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: CatherineofAragon
She believed her grandmother watched over her as a ghost.

So says Andrew Morton. But I don't know how different "Countess Spencer held a very special place in Diana's heart and she sincerely believed that her grandmother looked after her in the spirit world" is from orthodox Christian beliefs about loved ones looking down on someone from heaven. We don't know where Diana's belief ends and Morton's interpretation begins. Also he doesn't "time stamp" his claim so it's hard to tell if this was Diana's adult belief or something she held onto as a child.

20 posted on 03/26/2013 9:56:21 AM PDT by x
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To: x

I have no idea what Andrew Morton said; I didn’t get it from him.


21 posted on 03/26/2013 11:21:07 AM PDT by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: CatherineofAragon

Well, as I said, I don’t dabble. I think that twice in 6th grade, I played twice a friend’s Ouiji board, but that’s about it.

I’m not fascinated enough to ever try it. God has been good to me, and I’ve seen evidence in my life that He will take care of me.

But I do have a scientific curiosity. However, clearly it is either ...hogwash, or you will be calling Satan, by whatever name.


22 posted on 03/26/2013 12:24:33 PM PDT by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: CatherineofAragon
These stories all start some place. Andrew Morton's book seems the most reliable source, as he actually did research, rather than simply repeat stories already in circulation.

He just says that Diana felt that the spirit of her grandmother was looking after her. That may be occult and new age and shocking and bizarre to a secular and cynical British journalist, but it's not terribly different from what a lot of Americans who claim to be Christians believe.

Of course it may be that Diana believed her dead grandmother actually was creaking the floorboards and rattling the cupboards or that she tried to get in touch with her through a seance, but that's not the only explanation.

It's said that Diana did believe in and consult psychics and astrologers. But there's been so much rumor and disinformation that it's hard to know what to believe. I'd just point out that some people may be condemning her for believing something very close to what they themselves believe.

23 posted on 03/26/2013 1:56:05 PM PDT by x
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To: marshmallow
 
Catholic
Almanac:
Tuesday, March 26
Liturgical Color: White

St. Margaret Clitherow was pressed to death for sheltering priests on this day in 1586. She became a Catholic because she saw the many priests and lay people who suffered for the defense of the faith in England.

24 posted on 03/26/2013 3:01:03 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: marshmallow

The worst thing to happen to Christandom was the split between the Churches, what led up to it, and the mindless brutality on both sides


25 posted on 03/26/2013 3:15:35 PM PDT by ZULU (See: http://gatesofvienna.net/)
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To: x

I’ll be honest, I don’t know any Christians who think dead relatives are looking after them. That’s not a Christian belief.

Diana’s lifelong interest in the occult is more than just stories; it’s well documented. She had quite a few personal psychics, healers, and astrologers....Penny Thornton, Betty Palco, Debbie Frank, Simone Simmons, Rita Rogers, and Sally Morgan.


26 posted on 03/26/2013 5:43:31 PM PDT by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: Ann Archy
Not true. I lived in Brighton and London for years and can tell you for a fact that Catholic Churchs there were filled -- to the point that you didn't get seats during mass.

This was also true of Churches around Edinburgh and Bath and Cambridge

27 posted on 03/27/2013 10:29:53 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: CatherineofAragon
I’ll be honest, I don’t know any Christians who think dead relatives are looking after them. That’s not a Christian belief.

Thousands or millions of Christians have thought that their deceased relatives were looking down on them from heaven -- or at least it's what they told their children.

It's not so large a jump from that to a belief that their dead parent or grandparent in some sense looks after them or is in some way still present in their lives.

Perhaps that's not a theologically orthodox or a rigorously Biblically grounded belief, but if it's is not Christian, a lot of people out there who thought they were Christians aren't.

If I read that somebody felt that way -- particularly in a chapter of their biography that dealt with their childhood, I might not share the belief, but I wouldn't think it strange or out of the ordinary -- sad maybe, but not something I'd reproach them for.

Since there's other evidence that Diana was into psychics and astrologers, I guess the point is more or less moot. I was just trying to say that people on the Internet have a tendency to jump to conclusions and read things in ways that aren't always justified by the context.

28 posted on 03/27/2013 1:12:31 PM PDT by x
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To: Cronos

Glad to hear that. I lived in London 25 years ago and was just there and not many people in Farm St. Church either time.


29 posted on 03/27/2013 1:49:46 PM PDT by Ann Archy
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To: Ann Archy

Can’t speak for that particular Church, i’ve never been there. Most of the time I went to St. Mary Magdalene’s in Brighton


30 posted on 03/28/2013 3:40:35 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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