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Pope Francis to live in Vatican guesthouse, not papal apartments
cns ^ | March 26, 2013 | Cindy Wooden

Posted on 03/26/2013 11:48:33 AM PDT by NYer

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To: betty boop

My problem, not yours. Yours was actually a very insightful comment. Keep ‘em coming, BB.


151 posted on 03/27/2013 5:51:16 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture™)
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To: MHGinTN; Alamo-Girl
It appears you have figured this out, or so it appears to this low information non-Catholic. I shall pray for this Pontif to have the wisdom of Solomon and the grace of Nathan.

Well, dear brother in Christ, I can't exactly say that I am a "high-information Catholic." [At least as the "reformers" in the Church would say. After all, the fact that I have read the great encyclicals of Popes {Blessed} John-Paul II and Benedict XVI; and cherish the writings of the great Saints and Doctors of the Church — e.g., Augustine, Aquinas, and Anselm are particularly dear to my soul. After all, what the Church "reformers" really want (it seems to me) is for the Church to simply "go away." To not exist anymore.

RE: Pope Francis: I haven't "figured" anything out. I'm just following this newly-elected Pope around. So far, I find him amazingly gracious, charming, charismatic.

Jorge Mario Cardinal Bergoglio, Archbishop of Buenes Aires, Argentina — now Pope Francis, 266th pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church — has a very interesting personal history, in which (among other things) he has had to "speak Truth to Power." At personal cost.

I can't wait to see what happens next.... Though I feel confident Pope Francis will take the time he needs, as mediated by the Holy Spirit, to make his message heard in proper time, both within the Church, and in the wider world.

Dear brother, I so agree with you — Francis will need "the wisdom of Solomon and the grace of Nathan" in the conduct of his papacy.

May You, Dear Lord, Bless and protect Pope Francis!

Lord, hear my prayer!

Thank you so much, dear brother in Christ, for writing!

152 posted on 03/27/2013 5:54:04 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: mountainfolk

Amen


153 posted on 03/27/2013 8:50:03 PM PDT by tiki
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To: NYer

The more I hear about this guy, the more I think we’re going to like him.


154 posted on 03/27/2013 8:55:41 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: betty boop
May You, Dear Lord, Bless and protect Pope Francis!

Amen.

155 posted on 03/28/2013 5:52:59 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: longfellowsmuse
Honestly none of us know what is in the heart of the new Pope..but ponder this. Luxury and opulence not only give an image of excess but they also serve to corrupt. Perhaps he is not only serving as an example but is careful to keep himself humble as well, so he doesn’t become so concerned with the image and the lifestyle that he forgets his apostolic mission.

From what I've seen so far, it also wouldn't surprise me that some of these types of moves are being done -- in part -- intentionally to "shake up" the complacency of the permanent Vatican staff. Basically sending the message that "business as usual" time is over.

156 posted on 03/28/2013 6:01:24 AM PDT by kevkrom (If a wise man has an argument with a foolish man, the fool only rages or laughs...)
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To: txrefugee
This well-publicized poverty bit is beginning to look contrived and ridiculous.

If he moved into the fancy digs, then you could hammer him for being a hypocrite. I see.

157 posted on 03/28/2013 6:12:32 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

oThanks for posting that pic. A thousand words.

The amount of cynicism I have already read on this thread is just sad.


158 posted on 03/28/2013 6:19:49 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
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To: livius
Then I saw all sorts of stupid posts

Which is business as usual all too often. It takes a really interesting subject, like this, for me to even read a thread any more. Only then will I slog through the boring and predictable morass in hopes of finding good posting like yours and a precious few others.

159 posted on 03/28/2013 6:33:13 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
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To: don-o

Thank you! I read some of these threads to get a general sense of what’s going on, and I will say that I’m really puzzled as to why the haters hate Pope Francis so much.


160 posted on 03/28/2013 2:30:51 PM PDT by livius
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To: ELS; Alamo-Girl; steve86; marron
In this authoritative and engaging new biography, Augustine Thompson, O.P., sifts through the surviving evidence for the life of Francis using modern historical methods.

Forgive me for anticipating that Augustine Thompson's "modern historical methods" are more likely to distort St. Francis than to illuminate him. But then, I haven't read the book, and so may be wrong about that. However, I believe that St. Francis is absolutely irreducible to the rationalistic, direct-observation-based analytical approach so typical of modern thinking, which can only deal with "facts," not with meaning or values.

I am not surprised that Francis' prayer, which I quoted, is not the Canticle of Brother Son. Moreover, it seems that Fr. Thompson regards the prayer as a forgery; for "Francis would not have written such a piece, focused as it is on the self, with its constant repetition of the pronouns 'I' and 'me,' the words 'God' and 'Jesus' never appearing once."

Which, were this true, would be deeply distressing to me: For I say this prayer at least once a day, and have done so for the past ten years at least — as a salutary daily reminder of what "I" and "me" have to do in order to be transformed in and by Christ, a process enabled and facilitated by the Holy Spirit. Plus another prayer I say daily — Psalm 23 — also does not name God or Jesus. Like Francis' prayer (which I do believe is authentic), it involves an invocation of, and appeal to, the Lord.

St. Anselm also prayed in such manner, i.e., by invoking the Presence of the Lord. Faith for Anselm is more a volitional state than an epistemic state; i.e., it is about what one does, not primarily about what one knows. It is love for God and a drive to act as God wills. It is a type of prayer that seeks to engage the Lord in a divine dialogue with one's soul:

Speak to my desirous soul what you are, other than what it has seen, that it may clearly see what it desires [Proslogion XIV].... O Lord, you are not only that than which a greater cannot be conceived, but you are also greater than what can be conceived [Proslogion XV].

If God is greater than what can be conceived, then it seems to me our "modern" modes of reductionist analysis (typified in the natural sciences) cannot give a "complete" account of God in principle. Which is why science "evicts God" from its purview.

St. Francis' prayer — whoever "'wrote it" — is the prayer of a mystic and ascetic personality, which St. Francis certainly was. Perhaps only people who tend to be of such a persuasion can appreciate it.

What is arresting to me is that Cardinal Bergolio took Francis' name as his own pontifical name. There seems to be at least a passing resemblance between Pope Francis and the Saint, in that both are ascetics.

Steve86, you were actually correct to point out that Pope Francis, like the original Francis, is an ascetic. Yet like the original Francis, he does not withdraw from the world, but constantly, actively engages it, including in the realm of "politics."

One of the beauties — consolations? — of being an ascetic is the recognition that if one possesses nothing, then there's nothing to take away from one — except for one's mortal life, of course — nothing to "hold over one" to compel compliance to the things of this world. Satan cannot tempt such a one, for such a one doesn't value "things." If anything, one is empowered by one's own material poverty.

Well, just some thoughts, FWIW.

Thank you so very much for writing ELS!

P.S: Fr. Zuhlsdorf's characterization of Francis of Assisi as a "mediaeval peacenik" is, to me, totally ludicrous. Talk about anachronistic thinking — backloading the fashions and concerns of the present day onto 13th century thinking, where such concepts were entirely unknown! JMHO. FWIW.

161 posted on 03/29/2013 11:40:08 AM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: betty boop
Forgive me for anticipating that Augustine Thompson's "modern historical methods" are more likely to distort St. Francis than to illuminate him. But then, I haven't read the book, and so may be wrong about that. However, I believe that St. Francis is absolutely irreducible to the rationalistic, direct-observation-based analytical approach so typical of modern thinking, which can only deal with "facts," not with meaning or values.

Some biographical info. of Fr. Thompson, O.P.:

Fr. Augustine Thompson, O.P. (born New York, 1954), is a Catholic priest of the Order of Preachers and ... holds a Ph.D in medieval history from the Univ. of California, Berkeley CA. His books and publications focus on medieval Italy and medieval religious history.
Maybe he actually knows something about the time that St. Francis lived in?

From one of the reviews of the book: (emphasis mine)

A common pitfall faces all the biographers of Francis of Assisi: how reliable are the early legends about the saint? How does one find the 'historical' Francis behind sources that have theological points to make, standard hagiographical tropes to draw on, and political arguments to press? Augustine Thompson, O.P., is acutely aware of this problem and takes a very interesting and unique approach to overcoming it. In this very well-written book, he first gives us a biography of Francis based on the best use of the sources as he understands them, then assesses the biography itself in light of the sources and the scholarship about them. He brings to his examination the careful eye of a trained medieval historian.
From another review:(emphasis mine)
Writing a biography on Saint Francis, is a challenging task. Most historical treatments of Francis leave little left of the poor saint, while others tend to be too hagiographic. Fr. Augustine provides a scholarly account of Francis that balances the historical figure and the saint well. Although many a joke can be had of a Dominican writing a book on Francis, however he brings fresh insights to Francis thanks in part to his knowledge of medieval history and experience as a brother mendicant.

As someone who has read many biographies on Francis, this one is a refreshing balance. As a Franciscan friar and seminarian, this biography will remain on the book self with Francis' collected writings. His extensive notes in the second part of the book will prove helpful to anyone interested in deepening their understanding and scholarship on Franciscan Studies.

it seems that Fr. Thompson regards the prayer as a forgery; for "Francis would not have written such a piece, focused as it is on the self, with its constant repetition of the pronouns 'I' and 'me,' the words 'God' and 'Jesus' never appearing once."

No, he found that "The “Peace Prayer” is modern and anonymous, originally written in French, and dates to about 1912, when it was published in a minor French spiritual magazine, La Clochette." And he probably has the citation(s) in the bibliography to substantiate his claim.

Which, were this true, would be deeply distressing to me: For I say this prayer at least once a day, and have done so for the past ten years at least

Fr. Thompson also said that the prayer has noble sentiments. It is just that it was not written by St. Francis. Whomever the author was should not change the effect the prayer has on you or for you.

P.S: Fr. Zuhlsdorf's characterization of Francis of Assisi as a "mediaeval peacenik" is, to me, totally ludicrous.

Let's look at what Fr. Zuhlsdorf said. (emphasis mine)

... we should consider who Francis of Assisi really was, what he did and said. He wasn’t the bunny-hugging bird kisser that people think he was from their viewings of garden statues and Brother Sun, Sister Moon. (Remember that?)

St. Francis of Assisi, some think, was a medieval peacenik. However, Francis went to the Egypt and confronted Sultan al-Kamil, a nephew of Saladin.

Notice that he said "some think" of St. Francis as a peacenik. That is his way of saying that he doesn't agree with that characterization. If he agreed with it, he would just say so in a straightforward manner.

162 posted on 03/29/2013 7:23:01 PM PDT by ELS
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To: betty boop
St. Francis' prayer — whoever "'wrote it" — is the prayer of a mystic and ascetic personality, which St. Francis certainly was. Perhaps only people who tend to be of such a persuasion can appreciate it.

What is arresting to me is that Cardinal Bergolio took Francis' name as his own pontifical name. There seems to be at least a passing resemblance between Pope Francis and the Saint, in that both are ascetics.

Indeed. Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ!

163 posted on 03/29/2013 9:05:28 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
Lord, make me an instrument of Thy Peace:
Where there is hatred, let me sow Love;
Where there is injury, Pardon;
Where there is doubt, Faith;
Where there is despair, Hope;
Where there is sadness, Joy;
Where there is darkness, Light.
Oh Divine Master! Grant —
That I may not so much seek to be consoled,
As to console;
Not so much to be understood,
As to understand;
Not so much to be loved,
As TO LOVE.
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
It is in dying that we are born again unto Eternal Life.
Amen.

Thank you.

164 posted on 03/30/2013 6:26:18 PM PDT by marron
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To: marron; Alamo-Girl; xzins; TXnMA; metmom; MHGinTN; YHAOS; Kaslin; ELS; hosepipe
Our Lord is risen, Christ is risen! Alleluia!

Dear sisters and brothers, may God bless you and all your dear ones on this holy day, may you have a blessed Easter!

In Christ's Love and Peace — bb

165 posted on 03/31/2013 7:08:23 AM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: ELS; Alamo-Girl; steve86; marron; xzins
Fr. Thompson also said that the prayer has noble sentiments. It is just that it was not written by St. Francis. Whomever the author was should not change the effect the prayer has on you or for you.

Forgive me for being skeptical on this point, but exactly how does Fr. Thompson know for a certain fact that St. Francis didn't "write" this prayer? Certainly he seems very "fact-based" in his approach to St. Francis.

But there are limits to that sort of thing. Even if Fr. Thompson had each and every detail of the saint's life and a thorough knowledge of his cultural setting (so very, very different than our own and impossible in any case), I see no reasonable expectation that, by simply adding them all up, we can get a complete picture of St. Francis. "The sum of the parts" — biographical items verified by expert analysts — do not and cannot give a full, complete description of who St. Francis is.

IOW, the authenticity of St. Francis, and the meaning of his mission to the world, cannot be discovered by reducing him to a catalogue of biographical and cultural "facts" as determined by even the most highly-qualified experts....

As you are probably well aware, ELS, the Church has a long tradition of something called fides quarens intellectum, or faith in search of its reason, or reasons. I believe St. Anselm typifies this approach to the reconciliation of faith and reason, all enabled by the Holy Spirit in "dialog" with the soul — thus faith comes first. It seems Fr. Thompson's method reverses this order, which amounts to finding reasons to believe.

Does this make any sense to you, dear ELS?

May God bless you and all your dear ones on this holy day!

Happy Easter!

166 posted on 03/31/2013 7:39:31 AM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
These patients contracted an illness through a deliberate choice of behaviors they knew were risky.

You really think this child got AIDS through risky behavior? Really?!?.

No. The parents did. Aren't they responsible for anything in your world view?

167 posted on 03/31/2013 10:03:42 AM PDT by 4Runner
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To: betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; xzins; TXnMA; metmom; MHGinTN; Kaslin; ELS; hosepipe
Dear sisters and brothers, may God bless you and all your dear ones on this holy day, may you have a blessed Easter!
In Christ's Love and Peace — bb

Second the motion boop

God's blessings on each and all that is theirs! (everyone . . . as one certain little fellow would say)

168 posted on 03/31/2013 10:30:53 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Whosoever

One Drop performance...
Wade in the Water...

169 posted on 03/31/2013 10:36:48 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: betty boop
He is risen. Glory to God in the highest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldUEIpjmwsQ

170 posted on 03/31/2013 11:19:51 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Tennessee Nana; Marcella; MestaMachine

Ping!!!


171 posted on 03/31/2013 1:44:09 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: hosepipe
Oh my, my dear brother. Forgive me for saying this, i.e., that it "looks" to me like you are suspended in thin air, without a single place to "put your foot down" onto stable ground anywhere.

Human imagination is no magic answer all by itself: Imagination disconnected from Reality conduces to nothing good....

And my faith tells me it is God Who creates and charters Reality, Alpha–Omega, beginning to end. And we are all parts and participants of this divine Reality, of the Great Hierarchy of Being — God–Man–World–Society — that it implies, God's Creation in its evolution and beyond....

HUGS!!! dearest brother 'pipe!!!

May God ever bless you, and all your dear ones!

172 posted on 03/31/2013 5:19:21 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: MHGinTN; Alamo-Girl
Oh, so beautiful!!! So PERFECT a message for Easter Sunday!!!

Oh thank you so very much, dear brother in Christ, for posting this link!!!

173 posted on 03/31/2013 5:28:10 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Whosoever

” Human imagination is no magic answer all by itself: Imagination disconnected from Reality conduces to nothing good....”


Interesting concept reality.. Boopster.. without my imagination I could not imagine that there was a God..

And after conceiving of such a thing as God..
I then must construct a narrative.. maybe of snippets from the past.. or something else..

Having never actually seen God.. I must imagine one..
I agree this a bit much for literalism.. but I can believe in things I’ve never seen.. i.e. like Italy..

This does indeed place me suspended above a place to put my foot down..
BUT you can get used to that.. over time.. kids do it all the time..

Heck I imagine Betty Boop and Alamo Girl.. and Wiley E. Coyote.. Easter Bunnys and Santa Claus..
Imagining there is a God has been quite useful to me..

Some even imagine Obama is NOT a foreign agent constructing the demise of the United States..
I do not.. there is so much evidence to the contrary..

Much of reality “IS” imagination... i.e. Tesla, Edison, Einstein..
also; Mozart, Chopin, Beethoven, Rembrandt, DaVinci... PeeWee Herman..

from your Post it seems you yourself have imagined quite a lot..
Me, not wanted to “harsh” your vision accept it.. as a view on reality..

I have always imagined a love for YOU.. and am doing so right NOW..
Can you “feel it”?... i.e. much love going out on the ether waves..


Again for your enjoyment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw7e_qvPgks

https://vimeo.com/62671806


174 posted on 04/01/2013 9:25:14 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: betty boop
Forgive me for being skeptical on this point, but exactly how does Fr. Thompson know for a certain fact that St. Francis didn't "write" this prayer?

I'm not surprised that people today want to hold such claims to forensic scrutiny. But we ought to remember that the people who made such claims so many years ago could not have anticipated the modern demands for authentication, or surely they would have documented all they could.

As for me, a person's testimony stands on its own merit. It is what it is.

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ!

175 posted on 04/01/2013 9:24:25 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; marron; xzins; ELS; steve86; hosepipe
I'm not surprised that people today want to hold such claims to forensic scrutiny. But we ought to remember that the people who made such claims so many years ago could not have anticipated the modern demands for authentication, or surely they would have documented all they could.

Exactly my point, dearest sister in Christ. Most people of that time were illiterate, and more significantly in my view, they never heard of "the scientific method": Francis Bacon, pioneer of the scientific revolution, didn't show up for another three centuries. St. Francis himself — unlike the great Saints and Doctors of the Church Augustine, Aquinas, and Anselm — was not a writer of books; so we have few written records to go by.

What we do have is a rich oral tradition regarding this Saint communicated down the ages which is, by definition, "unscientific." But does that mean the tradition is in error because it is unscientific?

The fact that so many people have embraced this tradition for so very long, over generations, presents to my mind evidence of the truthfulness of the tradition. What has the scientific method to do with such purely spiritual matters? What can science "falsify" here, given its method, which primarily reduces to direct observation of empirical phenomena?

Plus how can the "materialist reduction" inherent in so much of modern science — i.e., the widely-accepted notion that everything in the world "supervenes on the physical" — ever address the non-physical aspects of Reality? Answer: It can't. The "scientific strategy" entails denial of the existence of all such aspects of Reality. [Which really is risible; for the very physical laws of the natural world are themselves non-physical aspects of that world.]

In conclusion, in what way can "forensics" even approach matters of the Spirit?

Thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ, for your astute observations!

176 posted on 04/02/2013 9:58:00 AM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: betty boop
The fact that so many people have embraced this tradition for so very long, over generations, presents to my mind evidence of the truthfulness of the tradition. What has the scientific method to do with such purely spiritual matters? What can science "falsify" here, given its method, which primarily reduces to direct observation of empirical phenomena?

Plus how can the "materialist reduction" inherent in so much of modern science — i.e., the widely-accepted notion that everything in the world "supervenes on the physical" — ever address the non-physical aspects of Reality? Answer: It can't. The "scientific strategy" entails denial of the existence of all such aspects of Reality. [Which really is risible; for the very physical laws of the natural world are themselves non-physical aspects of that world.]

Sooo very true, dearest sister in Christ! Thank you for sharing your insights!

177 posted on 04/02/2013 9:00:47 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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