Skip to comments.Pope Francis to live in Vatican guesthouse, not papal apartments
Posted on 03/26/2013 11:48:33 AM PDT by NYer
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BTW, did you ever hear again from that Indian Catholic FReeper named “Eustace”?
So he’d be better off living in extreme luxury?
Wow! You’re going back into the time vaults, aren’t you? I had to think for a moment about who you meant, but the answer is “no.”
Jogged my memory....."I am well aware that I am the umblest person going. My mother is likewise a very umble person. We live in a umble abode. We are so very umble."
(Uriah Heep in "David Copperfield", chapter 16, by Charles Dickens).
“This well-publicized poverty bit is beginning to look contrived and ridiculous.”
I seriously doubt Francis wastes time creating news about his humility so that he can see himself being talked about on tv.
I agree with you. Some Catholics, however, will take offense over any criticism non-Catholics might make about things "Catholic". Though there IS a public awareness of the image being portrayed by the regalia and opulence on display at the Vatican, some think no one has any right to comment about it if they aren't Catholic or it is negative in any way. I respect the new Pope's desire to be, as well as appear, humble in his ministry. I wish him well.
Eustace and his comments were somewhat controversial here but he did one very nice thing for me. I had a question once in need of an answer — he actually had an EWTN priest friend of his call me and answer it. I did not ever speak to Eustace directly but had given him our phone number. Last email I got he was claiming to be in Australia.
Jeepers, dear steve86, but I don't! The picture I have of Pope Francis beginning to develop in my mind is that he is (1) a man of pristine orthodoxy; (2) politically astute WRT both intra- and extra-church matters. Meaning: By engaging in the World, he identifies the "point" at which Faith (Spirit) and Reason (human intellect) dynamically intersect.
In this way, Pope Francis carries on the pontifical work of his two splendid predecessors, Blessed John-Paul II and Benedict XVI.
Yet his history shows him to have been embroiled in disputes with the reigning powers of his home country, Argentina. I do believe he was exiled from there at one point, because his teachings on Life were inconvenient to the plans of the (still-sitting) "progressive" government there.
Although he is a Jesuit, it seems his order didn't want to have much to do with him at the time, or since.
It appears he is NOT a "Reformist" on theological/doctrinal matters. Also that it's likely he's going to give Church "Progressives" the fits, going forward.
Yet his modeling of Christian agape, humility and poverty in his very manner of living and dealing with others of all descriptions only gives power and force to his message to the World.
Which, of course, we have only just begun to hear.
In short, steve86, I think Pope Francis is demonstrably too much engaged in the the Church, its Message, its culture, its politics to be legitimately characterized as an "ascetic monk." It is the job of an ascetic monk to "withdraw" from the World. It doesn't look much to me like Pope Francis is "withdrawn" in this sense. Rather, I get the eerie feeling that his gaze is very much trained on the World at large, "outside" the Vatican....
We'll see if this humble assessment is correct, in due course....
p.s.: The Great Prayer of St. Francis:
Lord, make me an instrument of Thy Peace:Cardinal Archbishop Jorge Mario Bergoglio took Francis' name for his papal name, for the first time in the history of the papacy.
Where there is hatred, let me sow Love;
Where there is injury, Pardon;
Where there is doubt, Faith;
Where there is despair, Hope;
Where there is sadness, Joy;
Where there is darkness, Light.
Oh Divine Master! Grant
That I may not so much seek to be consoled,
As to console;
Not so much to be understood,
As to understand;
Not so much to be loved,
As TO LOVE.
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
It is in dying
That we are born again
Unto Eternal Life.
What does this actually mean?
Stay tuned; time is the mother of Truth....
I was actually in Rome for Palm Sunday (I’m on Malta right now and will be here for Holy Week and Easter) and I saw Pope Francis. He did a great job at the mass and preached a wonderful homily, which I actually understood because he speaks Italian with a Latin American Spanish accent. It was very inspiring and we all went out ready to missionize the world!
Then I saw all sorts of stupid posts about the fact that Francis had another priest sing at the Elevation and that he didn’t genuflect. He didn’t sing because he can’t - he has only one lung, having had to have the other one removed as a teenager; and he doesn’t kneel at the altar because he can’t necessarily get up again. Notice that his assistants have to help him up and down the steps of the altar.
Why in the world are people so eager to read base motives into everything he does?
Hmmm, I think that Pope Francis is going to be even stricter but in a truly loving way. I think that he will call all Catholics to live their vocation, truly and genuinely but especially priests. I understand their perception, St. Francis is known as a very kind person who loved all of God’s creation and he took his name. St. Francis also embraced poverty.
Pope Benedict had the reputation of being God’s Rotweiller so the perception was that he was tough and mean, maybe even dangerous. I didn’t see his papacy that way at all.
I'm jealous (in a happy-for-you way) of your being there in the middle of ancient history and important real-time events. Anoreth and I would love to visit Malta, in the footsteps of dear General Patton!
You haven’t been around for 13 years, we have.
You are going much more deeply into it that was I when making a jocular comment. I was referring merely to the superficial visual aspect of asceticism. Max Weber made the distinction between “inner” and “worldly” asceticism, but it isn’t necessary to analyze every lame joke in a serious philosophical exercise.
Think of this the next time you are called upon to sing that ditty that starts with: Make me a channel of your peace. From the fine Francis of Assisi: A New Biography by Augustine Thompson.
Peace Prayer of Saint Francisa popular hymn best known by its opening words Make me a channel of your peace, and sung to a tune written by the Anglican composer Sebastian Temple. Many are quite shocked to find that this song is not identical to Franciss Canticle of Brother Sun, from which Zefferelli took the name of his movie. The Peace Prayer is modern and anonymous, originally written in French, and dates to about 1912, when it was published in a minor French spiritual magazine, La Clochette. Noble as its sentiments are, Francis would not have written such a piece, focused as it is on the self, with its constant repetition of the pronouns I and me, the words God and Jesus never appearing once.
BXVI was almost too humble and self effacing. Among the wolves at the Vatican and those outside, his honorable innocence was seen as making him vulnerable. And they succeeded in bringing him down.
I actually don’t think Francis is going to give that impression. To me, Pope Francis seems totally devoted to Jesus, to Our Lady and to the Church - but at the same time, very shrewd and cautious and firm.
When I saw him in Rome, I didn’t think of St Francis but of St Paul.
“For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’
But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”
Luke 7: 33-35
(My #63 was kind of a nonsequitur, wasn’t it?)
As to your question, which I quoted but didn’t answer, people have all kinds of agendas, into which they will obsessively fit every action or statement of the Pope’s. It’s nothing to do with him: he’s just a cutout, as it were, that they’re placing into their fixed views of the Church and the world.
Pope Francis is obviously an intelligent man and a highly competent and experienced administrator. If he thinks this choice of residence is the best option for him at this time, who is in a position to say he’s wrong?
Are you saying that you think I am doing that? I was only pointing out that no money is saved and that it is probably less safe for him to stay at the Domus Sanctae Marthae. You may disagree, but that doesn't mean I am questioning his motives or not giving him the benefit of the doubt.
“But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”
If only we recognized that everytime we sin we hurt Jesus. I only we recognized that everyime we sin we hurt ourselves. If only we recognized that everytime we sin we hurt all of humanity.
We can only be thankful for the forgiveness of Jesus and the fact that He chose to die in shame on a cross for us.
“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive....”
“But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
Court Psychiatrist: [Holding up inkblot card] Okay, now tell me what you see, Alan.
Alan Musgrave: Flowers. Hmmm...tulips, jonquils, and roses. They're long-stemmed American Beauty roses, actually.
Court Psychiatrist: [flipping to new inkblot card, irritated] Uh - concentrate. Try a little harder.
Alan Musgrave: [sharply inhaling]. Birds. Trees. [Sudden interest, taking card from psychiatrist] Oh, and there's a river! A river, winding lazily through green pastures....
Court Psychiatrist: [interrupting] You're fighting me.
Alan Musgrave: [continuing] ....oh, it's so peaceful. On the banks are happy children....
Court Psychiatrist: [ignoring him, filing her nails] Don't fight me, Alan.
Alan Musgrave: [continuing]....clouds, lots of clouds -- [gets out of chair and sits on desk, showing inkblot to psychiatrist] Look! One of them looks just like the Easter Bunny! Huh.
Court Psychiatrist: [takes inkblot from him, looks him in the eye, condescending] Alan, I want to help you. Now, don't you realize that these things are supposed to be dirty?
Alan Musgrave: [Surprised] Dirty? [Looks at new inkblot card, shakes head] No. That's a butterfly. A brightly colored butterfly....
Court Psychiatrist: [leaps up from desk, throws all inkblots at Alan in extreme anger] You are hostile! You are hostile, you little creep! You creep, you hostile creep!
Alan Musgrave: Shhhhh! Doctor, shhhhh! [motions with hand to sit down] Doctor, what are you hiding from? Your whole pattern suggests a rigidity syndrome of severe underlying anxiety, massive repressions and pathological prejudices. All of which makes it very difficult for me to relate to you! So if you really want me to talk, get me my tape recorder.
Court Psychiatrist: [steaming] Anything else?
Alan Musgrave: Now that you mention it, you might get me my transistor radio. And a corned beef sandwich. On rye. No mustard.
-- from the 1966 movie Lord Love A Duck
As posted on the thread What You Get Is What You See
How do you suppose he could do it quietly. The media follows his every move and if he didn’t announce it they would uncover it and somehow fill it with intrigue.
Malta is quite a place and I recommend it highly. The secularists just managed to get divorce approved here last year...it’s very Catholic, but unfortunately this is changing.
I met a wonderful devoted priest at the St Paul Shipwreck Church today (that’s really it’s name - a gorgeous church, with two important relics of St Paul). He was out on the street dragging people in to see his church.
He said he had been in the US once, to go to Alabama and be on EWTN! I assume this was for the Pauline year, although I don’t recall which year that was.
In any case, I’ve seen all sorts of Holy Week exhibits, because they have a tradition of doing miniature diorama-sized scenes of the Passion and of episodes from the Gospels.
On Holy Thursday I will visit the 7 churches, where they are already setting up the enormous floral Altar of Repose, and then see the processions.
But what really made my visit was meeting this humble and holy priest today. And I think Pope Francis is a lot like him.
Sorry if I misunderstood you. He’s still going to use the apartment for official functions and is going to use the office there. The Domus is very nearby, much closer than St. John Lateran, where the popes used to live until 1903, and is quite secure. Plus, he’ll probably be a lot safer with other people around him. Not to mention happier...
It’s like this, bumsy: too many of youse members of the thousand Protestant sects, each of which, from the snake handlers to the Unitarians, claims its own interpretation of the Holy Book is the only correct one, too many of youse here, appear (I said “appear”, even if as expected you deny it!) to define yourselves by your opposition/hatred/disdain for the Pope and the Catholic Church he represents. It is, as are your endless lengthy cut and paste jobs from the Bible that no one here reads, it is just repetitious and boring!
Excellent response! I admire the new Pope. He’s setting a great example.
I’m just asking why people who hate the Church even care where the Pope is living...and why they aren’t happy that he’s now living someplace more modest. Is there anything that would make you happy?
LOL, he can’t win for losing.
We had a priest who wasn’t all that enthusiastic about his duties. He regularly hired a priest from Mexico to do the masses at the mission church, especially during Holy Week. Our new priest does all the things a priest should do and more. He has established a catechetical program at the mission, he goes very early to hear confessions, he has worked with them to improve their parish and last Sunday, because there were some extra things going on because of Palm Sunday he hired the Mexican priest for only the second time in one year and got a nasty email.
There are some pretty nasty and vindictive characters here on your side of the Tiber. As my Catholic grade school teacher used to say, "Clean off your own doorstep before you clean off someone elses.".
Oh, sigh ...
I would love to spend Holy Week somewhere that the observances are not an afterthought in the midst of an ordinary work/school week. Maybe I’ll get to visit my FRiend in Colombia some day ... he claims to have been in jail in Malta, and then deported with extreme prejudice ;-).
Oh, OK, Bipolar Bob.
Ahhh, if someone came up to you several times a day and called your mother a whore and your daughter a harlot even when you tried to avoid them, even when you tried to be civil and defend them using reason and they chose not only not to listen to your reasoning but went about town slandering your family would you see it as someone who just “disagreed” with your family or would you see intent?
The homosexual pedophile, Weakland, who mis-ran the Milwaukee Archdiocese actually had his home lifted up so an automobile entry and exit could be installed. This at great expense, he could exit his car without going out in the rain.
Has someone physically accosted you? Has someone been pinging you after you told them to stop? FReepmailing you in a stalking manner? Has someone continually posted to you specifically over and over? OR has someone posted their opinion, article or blog which you just happen to disagree with? Now, which is it?
Totally disagree. Every action our new Pope takes is well publicized. The fact he is rejecting many of the regal trappings is awesome and sets a great example.
Actually, I didn’t take it personally until I read your reply. When people who aren’t involved in a dispute wade in it makes people defensive of their own.
Normally when I read that poster’s replies, I roll my eyes, think snotty things and then stop and ask for forgiveness and for God to bless him. It isn’t always easy but I know God loves him for me until I can grow enough in my holiness through the Holy Spirit to love him too.
You did not address the fact that the Pope will be living in an apartment building with a lot of other people who will be subject to the security problems which surround him. If pointing out that I think that is selfish of him to do that to the other people in his apartment, I am sorry. Maybe it is a “base motive,” but no one has effectively explained how the other people in his building will not be affected by this. He is not merely our Holy Father, he is the head of the Vatican State, and as such will have the security necessary for this position. There is no way this will not affect the other people living in his building. Think how you would feel if the governor of your state moved in next door to you - while he was still governor! Your life would change, whether you wanted it to, or not. He is doing the same thing to these people, who were just living quietly and now all of a sudden the Head of the Vatican State will be next door, down the hall, or upstairs. Will there be security check points every time they ride the elevator? Will their grocery bags have to be inspected? These are the things that I’m talking about.
I guess you haven't been reading my posts on this thread. I have said nothing but GOOD things about your new Pope Francis.
Off subject, but since you are so close, I highly recommend a side visit to Portugal if you can. I got to go there for work three different times in the late 90's. A really beautiful country!
Gee, Revolting, I can’t remember ever having a discussion with you directly on these threads. Nice to know you at least notice my work! ;o)
That’s prolly because I’m Revolting, not Religious!
I’m guessing that security at the Vatican is already extremely tight. Having Pope Francis living in the Vatican guesthouse may not make as much of a difference as one might think.
Sorry boatbum, maybe I misunderstood you or confused something you quoted with your own words. My apologies!
I go to the Iberian peninsula countries and regions a lot myself and I often spend Holy Week in Madrid (beautiful processions) but this year I wanted to try something different. Malta is definitely different!
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