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New experiments on Shroud show itís not medieval (dates to 1st century)
Vatican Insider ^ | March 26, 2013 | ANDREA TORNIELLI

Posted on 03/26/2013 8:14:48 PM PDT by NYer

Professor Giulio Fanti and journalist Saverio Gaeta have published a book with the results of some chemical and mechanical tests which confirm that the Shroud dates back to the 1st century

ANDREA TORNIELLI

ROME

New scientific experiments carried out at the University of Padua have apparently confirmed that the Shroud Turin can be dated back to the 1st century AD. This makes its compatible with the tradition which claims that the cloth with the image of the crucified man imprinted on it is the very one Jesus’ body was wrapped in when he was taken off the cross. The news will be published in a book by Giulio Fanti, professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at the University of Padua’s Engineering Faculty, and journalist Saverio Gaeta, out tomorrow. “Il Mistero della Sindone” (The Mystery of the Shroud) is edited by Rizzoli (240 pp, 18 Euro).
 

What’s new about this book are Fanti’s recent findings, which are also about to be published in a specialist magazine and assessed by a scientific committee. The research includes three new tests, two chemical ones and one mechanical one. The first two were carried out with an FT-IR system, so using infra-red light, and the other using Raman spectroscopy. The third was a multi-parametric mechanical test based on five different mechanical parameters linked to the voltage of the wire. The machine used to examine the Shroud’s fibres and test traction, allowed researchers to examine tiny fibres alongside about twenty samples of cloth dated between 3000 BC and 2000 AD.

 

The new tests carried out in the University of Padua labs were carried out by a number of university professors from various Italian universities and agree that the Shroud dates back to the period when Jesus Christ was crucified in Jerusalem. Final results show that the Shroud fibres examined produced the following dates, all of which are 95% certain and centuries away from the medieval dating obtained with Carbon-14 testing in 1988: the dates given to the Shroud after FT-IR testing, is 300 BC ±400, 200 BC ±500 after Raman testing and 400 AD ±400 after multi-parametric mechanical testing. The average of all three dates is 33 BC  ±250 years. The book’s authors observed that the uncertainty of this date is less than the single uncertainties and the date is compatible with the historic date of Jesus’ death on the cross, which historians claim occurred in 30 AD.

 

The tests were carried out using tiny fibres of material extracted from the Shroud by micro-analyst Giovanni Riggi di Numana who passed away in 2008 but had participated in the1988 research project and gave the material to Fanti through the cultural institute Fondazione 3M.


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: catholic; shroud; shroudbroadcast; shroudofturin; turin
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Shroud Resources

Shroud Story

The Shroud of Turin Official Site

1 posted on 03/26/2013 8:14:48 PM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer

Bump


2 posted on 03/26/2013 8:15:24 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...
Reminder

The Shroud will be on display and televised worldwide this Saturday, March 30. This is only the second time, the first being in 1973.

3 posted on 03/26/2013 8:16:16 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer

.


4 posted on 03/26/2013 8:18:19 PM PDT by doc1019 (The rabbit hole that Obama is leading us down just gets deeper and deeper.)
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To: NYer

Wow.


5 posted on 03/26/2013 8:23:34 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind. ~Steve Earle)
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To: NYer; MarineMom613; Ron C.; wolfman23601; ColdOne; navymom1; Pat4ever; RIghtwardHo; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

6 posted on 03/26/2013 8:23:40 PM PDT by narses
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To: NYer

Scientists have also found pollen in the Shroud that are local to Jerusalem:

“Some 96 percent of the 28 flower species identified on the shroud grow between Jerusalem and the Qumran Caves. Add the southern Dead Sea area to the equation and 100 percent of the species can be found, said Danin.”

http://shroud2000.com/ArticlesPapers/Article-PollenEvidence.html


7 posted on 03/26/2013 8:28:09 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: NYer
I don't get it. I care nothing for a piece of cloth purported to be 2000 years old.

Dec. 9, 2009 on the side of a mountain, during a snow storm, bleeding out after a fall explained everything I ever needed to know, and told me how strong my faith was.

/johnny

8 posted on 03/26/2013 8:29:57 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: NYer

Glad I got to see one “good news” thread today.


9 posted on 03/26/2013 8:35:09 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture¬ô)
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To: NYer
televised worldwide this Saturday, March 30

Interesting to know. Any network information? Worth it to me to go somewhere and try to watch in HD. Maybe will be streamed.

10 posted on 03/26/2013 8:36:56 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture¬ô)
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To: JRandomFreeper

You don’t realize what kind of an epic oxymoron is embedded in your comment.


11 posted on 03/26/2013 8:38:13 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture¬ô)
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To: JRandomFreeper

I certainly don’t need a piece of cloth to confirm my faith, either. However, it is so wonderful that we continuously find evidence and validation for the Scriptures on a nearly daily basis.


12 posted on 03/26/2013 8:39:12 PM PDT by MNGal
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To: JRandomFreeper

Really? Sounds like an interesting story. Tell us more!


13 posted on 03/26/2013 8:39:20 PM PDT by MNDude (I survived the sequester!)
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To: steve86
'Splain me then. It's always time for school for midshipmen and children.

/johnny

14 posted on 03/26/2013 8:40:38 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Christianity is based on historical facts that can be investigated. People typically come to Christ in two ways, by pure Faith (your case and mine) and purely by Reason, (C.S. Lewis for example). Then of course there is everyone in between. The Shroud is just another means by which to bring more souls into the fold that might not otherwise get there. God will take you any way He can.


15 posted on 03/26/2013 8:41:08 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: MNGal

Name one person who needed/needs the Shroud to confirm his/her faith.


16 posted on 03/26/2013 8:41:21 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture¬ô)
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To: MNDude

I laughed when I read your tag line. May we all be so fortunate. :-)


17 posted on 03/26/2013 8:42:08 PM PDT by MNGal
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To: steve86

I said that I didn’t, but I imagine you could run across someone who would fall into that category.


18 posted on 03/26/2013 8:43:37 PM PDT by MNGal
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To: HerrBlucher

Well said.


19 posted on 03/26/2013 8:45:34 PM PDT by MNGal
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To: MNGal; JRandomFreeper
However, it is so wonderful that we continuously find evidence and validation for the Scriptures on a nearly daily basis.

This is actually a very good statement.

JR, the contradiction I saw was professing your very strong faith yet showing an almost hostile rejection of direct evidence for it, rather than the awe and wonder which would be expected (as in MNGal's statement above).

The existence of The Shroud, left as a great gift for us, makes me feel very good, and I don't know why you would react as you do.

20 posted on 03/26/2013 8:50:31 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture¬ô)
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To: JRandomFreeper
"I don't get it. I care nothing for a piece of cloth purported to be 2000 years old."

The shroud is either the authentic burial shroud of Christ, or it is not.

If it is not, it is singularly unique as a forgery or artifact created hundreds, if not over a thousand years ago, that modern technology can not replicate or explain.

If it is the authentic burial shroud of Christ, well, God does nothing without his reasons.

In either case, it merits my attention and a bit of contemplation, but my faith is certainly not contingent upon it.

21 posted on 03/26/2013 8:50:36 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: MNGal

Wow! My head exploded when I saw your name. How long have you been MNGal?


22 posted on 03/26/2013 8:53:59 PM PDT by MNDude (I survived the sequester!)
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To: HerrBlucher
Well stated!

And to build on a point “God will take you any way He can.”

As C.S. Lewis noted in “The Screwtape Letters”, so will Satan.

With regard to capturing your soul, he informed his nephew, Wormwood:
“Cards are as good as murder, if cards do the trick”.

23 posted on 03/26/2013 8:56:59 PM PDT by G Larry (Which of Obama's policies do you think I'd support if he were white?)
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To: MNDude; MNGal

Easy you two.


24 posted on 03/26/2013 8:59:33 PM PDT by ansel12 (" I would not be in the United States Senate if it wasnt for Sarah Palin " Cruz said.)
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To: HerrBlucher
I don't know if reason and logic alone will get you there. As some point you have to get the faith, no?

I could imagine a sophisticated computer, manifesting human-like artificial intelligence and reason, concluding based on evidence and syllogisms that there is, in fact, a God. But it would never get the faith.

25 posted on 03/26/2013 9:01:58 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture¬ô)
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To: HerrBlucher
Certainly something for me to contemplate.

Thank you.

/johnny

26 posted on 03/26/2013 9:06:06 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: steve86

Well it can get you close enough. C.S. Lewis reasoned most of the way, but his final conversion happened when he rode in his brother’s sidecar...lol! When I first became a Christian I believed it in my heart but my mind still rejected it as a silly story. It took years of studying Christian apologetics ( mostly Lewis and Chesterton) to bring the two into harmony.


27 posted on 03/26/2013 9:08:27 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: JRandomFreeper
When I think of the Shroud I think of Jesus wanting to have His photo taken recording the most important event in the history of mankind.

He did what He had to do before the Kodak camera was invented.

28 posted on 03/26/2013 9:09:54 PM PDT by Slyfox (The Key to Marxism is Medicine ~ Vladimir Lenin)
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To: NYer

embrace Jesus


29 posted on 03/26/2013 9:10:35 PM PDT by RedHeeler
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To: MNDude

I think close to five years.


30 posted on 03/26/2013 9:14:17 PM PDT by MNGal
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To: NYer

My two cents here. I think the shroud is interesting, especially from an historic perspective. That said...

If one places too much faith in the shroud, and I am not saying anyone here is, if the shroud is shown later to be a fraud then that person’s faith could be shattered.

Keep it all in perspective.

Best to put one’s faith in Jesus.


31 posted on 03/26/2013 9:14:34 PM PDT by bubbacluck (You don't drive out the darkness; you turn on the light.)
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To: MNDude

2010... just click on her name.


32 posted on 03/26/2013 9:18:12 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: NYer

This study should be interesting. Hopefully it is well done. The previous dating was clearly wrong. Maybe this one will be right.


33 posted on 03/26/2013 9:19:50 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Joe 6-pack
In either case, it merits my attention and a bit of contemplation, but my faith is certainly not contingent upon it.

Thanks for a wonderful post, Joe. In regard to relics, we should maybe lighten up just a bit. No one, no pope, no bishop, etc. ever said that they were a necessary part of faith.

As you allude, they are ex voto... just a little something to bring the mind back to the deeds of a saint, or in the case of this shroud, that God became man and needed one for a while.

the Christian faith dates back to times when these mementos were taken a little more seriously ... even in the wrong way. No need for us modern johnnies to go batcrap about it. As much as I sniggered in the duplicate-relic laden churches of Europe, they served their purpose by causing me to reflect (OK fleetingly) upon some aspect of the faith. The Sola Scriptura gang is probably right ... we don't "need" relics. But it is a gift to have them, a gift from Christians who went before us.

The material of the shroud may well date back to Roman times, and be from the Holy Land. Either way, it's a wonderful and gentle reminder of the truth of the Resurrection.

34 posted on 03/26/2013 9:21:27 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk (The Obama Molecule: Teflon binds with Melanin = No Criminal Charges Stick)
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To: JRandomFreeper

“I don’t get it...bleeding out after a fall explained everything I ever needed to know, and told me how strong my faith was.”

Yes, sir, Johnny, and I understand that. My God and my Lord and Savior have delivered me/us from inescapable circumstances in several instances that we know of, and likely many, many more. These are faith building experiences. I do not need the Shroud to know who my Lord and Savior is...on the other hand I find it interesting that this just might be something preserved to affirm to us in our generation what those who stood at the foot of the cross, gazing upward, and those who encountered Him after the Resurection saw and believed first hand.

He is all powerful, all loving, all caring, all giving. He is God. He, though God, as man died so that we might live. I came to know Him in a very personal way before I knew anything about a Shroud, or any other kind of ‘relics’ that might bear some testimony to what God tells us in His Word. I do not need that. My faith is what I have because He gave me my faith. And that faith grows, by the day.

Again, I thank you for sharing your faith. God is Good. God brings people, events, circumstances into our lives to teach us and to enlighten us. He obviously is doing that with you. We too know that nurturing. Blessings.


35 posted on 03/26/2013 9:22:53 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a Tea Party descendant...steeped in the Constitutional Republic given to us by the Founders.)
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To: liege
If one places too much faith in the shroud, and I am not saying anyone here is, if the shroud is shown later to be a fraud then that person’s faith could be shattered.

But only if the person's faith was based on or contingent upon the Shroud or some other piece of apparently confirming physical evidence. For me, The Shroud is almost a bonus, a joy-inspiring historical confirmation. Were it to be found fake, it would certainly cause disappointment but no effect on faith, per se.

That said, a good Christian should always view claims initially with skepticism (unless already approved by The Church), as there are, of course, many blatant fakes and hoaxes such as certain purported "Dead Sea Scrolls". Those are meant to weaken your faith.

36 posted on 03/26/2013 9:24:56 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture¬ô)
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To: Slyfox

Interesting comments regarding a “Big Bang” event (a new Creation) in the tomb:

http://www.nigelkerner.com/Articles/Brighter_than_the_Sun.html

Distinguished particle physicist, Dame Isabel Piczek, has identified the remarkable fact that there seems to be no distortion in the image on the cloth, a distortion that should have resulted from the pressure of the body on the stone floor of the tomb and the inevitable irregularities that would have occurred due to the folds and wrinkles of the wrapping:

“There is a strange dividing element, an interface from which the image is projected up and the image is projected down. The muscles of the body are absolutely not crushed against the stone of the tomb. They are perfect. It means that the body is hovering between the two sides of the shroud. What does that mean? It means that there is absolutely no gravity. The image is absolutely undistorted. Now if you imagine that the cloth was wrinkled, tied, wrapped around the body and all of a sudden you see a perfect image, which is impossible unless the shroud was made absolutely taut, rigidly taut. A heretofore unknown interface acted as an event horizon. The straight, taut linen of the shroud simply was forced to parallel the shape of this powerful interface. The projection, an action at a distance, happens from the surface and limit of this, taking with itself the bas-relief image of the upper and, separately, the underside of the body.”

This, “heretofore unknown interface” she says, would have been the result of a “collapsed event horizon,” in the center of which, “there is something which science knows as a singularity. This is exactly what started the universe in the Big Bang.” Thus, she goes on to say: “We have nothing less in the tomb of Christ than the beginning of a new universe.”


37 posted on 03/26/2013 9:30:54 PM PDT by 21twelve ("We've got the guns, and we got the numbers" adapted and revised from Jim M.)
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To: Kenny Bunk
I majored in history and art history, and minored in studio art, with a concentration in medieval studies. While my job has nothing to do with any of the above, my hobbies certainly do.

From a modern perspective the veneration of icons, relics, etc., may seem a bit silly, but when placed in the context of widespread illiteracy, the visual vocabulary of Christian iconography can be recognized for the prominent role it played in illustrating, transmitting and communicating Christian beliefs.

Because of the reliance on iconography as a visual vocabulary to communicate specific thoughts, stories and traditions, an artist's value was largely gauged in terms of consistency and conformity, not creativity or innovation.

What's unique aout the shroud springing forth in this environment is precisely its lack of precedence.

38 posted on 03/26/2013 9:34:53 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: 21twelve

Dame Piczek has offered some interesting observations and analysis but is way too keen to explain it in terms of her cosmological training.


39 posted on 03/26/2013 9:36:13 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture¬ô)
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To: NYer

We were in Italy last time the Shroud was shown in Turin. The exhibition was announced after we’d bought tickets, and it overlapped our trip by a few days. It was very moving, and beautifully displayed. Traffic in Turin was ... excting, to say the least.


40 posted on 03/26/2013 9:46:49 PM PDT by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
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To: NYer

I saw the shroud in 1978, I had read about it and now I was going to see it. For me to go was almost a miracle in it self, I was a firing platoon leader at an Ihawk missile site in Germany. Seldom did we get time off, but I was able by chance to get off and join our parish for trip to Turin. When we arrived our bus had trouble finding a place to park. Finally, we found one but a small Italian car was just blocking us, no matter in the spirit of Peter Sellers, six of us picked the car up and moved it back 5 feet. The bus parked and we headed for the huge line waiting to see the Shroud our Priest showed us the fine Italian art of line cutting! The Cathedral was beautiful after about a 30 min wait we got our turn. It was hard to see it at first because it is a negative image, it seemed like water color. However, as you looked at it you could start to see the body, the head the crossed hands. The blood stains in the wrists. What was the most impressive were the people around me and the way they reacted when they saw it. The absolute awe and reverence was profound. Later that evening after a wonderful dinner we strolled by the Cathedral and saw the scientific team setting up their instruments to do the first significant study. It was the Air Force Ach team of Jackson and Jumper. I will never forget that day!


41 posted on 03/26/2013 10:03:02 PM PDT by Empireoftheatom48 (God help the Republic but will he?)
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To: JRandomFreeper

The Shroud is another way God speaks to us. For nearly every investigation into details of the cloth reveals some new wonder, excepting the botched C-14 test of 1988 that was taken from an already scorched patch.

It reminds me of Jesus’ promise that heaven and earth may pass away, but His words will not.


42 posted on 03/26/2013 10:08:36 PM PDT by blackpacific
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To: Empireoftheatom48

Outstanding.


43 posted on 03/26/2013 10:11:01 PM PDT by RedHeeler
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To: NYer
the latest - and perhaps the best - documentary on the Shroud - I've been following ‘The Shroud” since the 1960’s - won't bore you with the plethora of information, books, documentaries, shared emails with one of the original STURPA experts, the very real correlation from the iconic arts, etc -

but highly recommend you do yourselves a favor and at least watch this. I challenge you not to be awed when “The FAce” emerges - quite correct, except for some issues of hair and eye coloring. But The Shroud's forensic evidence can't indicate that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8grRf_3RUr8

44 posted on 03/26/2013 10:13:26 PM PDT by maine-iac7 (Christian is as Christian does - by their fruits)
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To: maine-iac7; All

I meant to post this to “all” - here ya go
the latest - and perhaps the best - documentary on the Shroud - I’ve been following ‘The Shroud” since the 1960’s - won’t bore you with the plethora of information, books, documentaries, shared emails with one of the original STURPA experts, the very real correlation from the iconic arts, etc -
but highly recommend you do yourselves a favor and at least watch this. I challenge you not to be awed when “The FAce” emerges - quite correct, except for some issues of hair and eye coloring. But The Shroud’s forensic evidence can’t indicate that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8grRf_3RUr8


45 posted on 03/26/2013 10:14:55 PM PDT by maine-iac7 (Christian is as Christian does - by their fruits)
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To: Jet Jaguar
For most of my life I have heard about how Science was disproving the existence of God and what is written in the Bible.

In everything from the Snopes Monkey trial to polite cocktail party conversation it has become fashionable to ridicule the Bible as something best believed by uneducated, unsophisticated dupes, especially in the Elite Media.

This ridicule has been a big driving factor in the steep, rapid decline in all of the Christian faiths.

The “scientific basis” for the rejection of Judeo/Chrisitan beliefs has always been tenuous at best and based on very crude and incomplete scientific knowledge available at the time. This crude and incomplete science was then blown way out of proportion by a media looking for any factoid to discredit Christianity.

However, our Science has improved exponentially in the last 10-20 years in areas critical to understanding the scientific foundation of what has been written. This improved science has almost always tended to confirm what is written in the Bible as scientific and historical fact.

However, the damage has been done and the new evidence either does not get publicity it deserves or it falls on the deaf ears of people who already have been conditioned and taught to believe that science disproves the existence of God and what has been written in the Bible, which is the great tragedy of our times.

46 posted on 03/26/2013 10:16:09 PM PDT by rdcbn
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To: NYer
Many years ago now, I read a very in-depth scientific examination of the Shroud done by the US Navy (a big surprise to me at the time) that fully supported a date very near the time of Christ, but went well beyond the dating of it.

The piece examined how the images seen could have been created, and their final thesis was that it came about by the power of God in the resurrection - an instant of intense power. The science used and was incredibly fascinating.

47 posted on 03/26/2013 10:17:58 PM PDT by Ron C.
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To: Ron C.

The Study was done by the Air Force Academy Scientists Jackson and Jumper!


48 posted on 03/26/2013 10:23:19 PM PDT by Empireoftheatom48 (God help the Republic but will he?)
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To: NYer

What is fascinating about what is seen on the shroud is that it is a pixel image with a resolution 5 times higher than the best commercial laser printer and it contains 3-D information. Also, the image is not formed by any dye, ink paint or burning, as the cloth fiber itself DOES NOT CONTAIN THE IMAGE! The image is formed only on the thin layer of soapwort which was left on the surface when the cloth was washed and dried during its manufacture.


49 posted on 03/26/2013 10:48:24 PM PDT by kik5150
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To: Joe 6-pack

Very nicely put.


50 posted on 03/26/2013 10:49:07 PM PDT by MtnMan101
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