Skip to comments.Pope Francis: self-help courses can turn Catholics into Pelagians
Posted on 03/28/2013 5:58:16 AM PDT by markomalley
Pope Francis has said in his Chrism Mass homily that self-help courses can turn Catholics into Pelagians who minimise the power of grace.
The Pope said at a Mass in St Peters Basilica attended by about 1,600 priests that it is not in soul-searching or constant introspection that we encounter the Lord.
He said: Self-help courses can be useful in life, but to live by going from one course to another, from one method to another, leads us to become Pelagians and to minimise the power of grace, which comes alive and flourishes to the extent that we, in faith, go out and give ourselves and the Gospel to others. The Pelagian heresy, popular in the fifth century, holds that people are capable of choosing good without the grace of God.
In his homily, Pope Francis urged priests to go out and to live in the midst of their flock. He said that, like the anointed ones, Isaiah, David and Christ, priests are anounted so that they, in turn, can anount the faithful.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicherald.co.uk ...
:) This Pope is all that I had hoped and prayed for, and more. I’m so thankful that Pope Benedict is still with us, so that he can offer wise counsel to Pope Francis. With all that is happening in the world today, this is one very bright light.
Go read the entire sections.
The actual Gloriae Mariae does not contain the made-up quote you posted above.
My FRiend, this is not one Christian telling other Christians that they are stupid. I want to be perfectly clear, I am simply saying that the Roman organization is NOT CHRISTIAN in any sense of the word. If you are a believer, then you are a believer in spite of Rome, not because of Rome. And, I am not bashing you.
Rome may speak about Jesus, but even the Mormon group does that. But Rome teaches something akin to Judaism 2.0. I am calling out the errors and appealing to those inside of the organization to escape into the light of Jesus, alone...if He allows (Rom. 9).
You may wish to revisit the sections and read it carefully.
Semi-pelagianism, like Arminianism, allows that God's grace must operate on a man...but is operating on all men (common grace). Then, with this common (prevenient) grace at work, the man is given the choice to follow Christ or reject Christ. This "little island of righteousness", just a tiny atoll, is sufficient to grant the man enough wherewithal to accept or reject the grace needed to save. Although it was also condemned (centuries ago), it has become the theology de jure with Rome today. And now this errant doctrine is not just a problem with Rome...it has permeated much of the so-called Protestant movement.
Ping to 46
The ones that are frequently responded to. It's only been going on around here for years, back-and-forth, over and over.
It's called the FreeRepublic religion forum. It's the way it works, for better and worse.
A Jebbie Hitting pelagianism! Somewhere Pascal is smiling.
As Pascal said, man is a reed, but a thinking reed.
Well, Paul, I didnt recognize you! But no, the Apostle Paul saw the need for groups, etc.
Wow, how many errors can you pack into one paragraph? You don't understand either semi-Pelagianism or Catholicism.
"Prevenient" grace is not the same thing as "common" grace. "Prevenient" comes from the Latin meaning "coming before". It is the grace which precedes justification.
Semi-Pelagians taught that the initiative in the ordo salutis belongs to man; that a "good thought" or "good movement" in a man could begin the process of justification. The doctrine of prevenient grace directly opposes this by insisting the the initiative always belongs with God.
The Catholic church condemned semi-Pelagianism at the Council of II Orange, whose canons were given dogmatic force by a later Papal degree. Those canons retain their dogmatic force today.
“”Prevenient” grace is not the same thing as “common” grace. “Prevenient” comes from the Latin meaning “coming before”. It is the grace which precedes justification.”
Unfortunately, going through so many different versions of the Catholic conception of “grace” is irrelevant to what the scriptures teach, which are much simpler.
Catholics do not believe that salvation is by grace alone, and therefore argue that their salvation hinges on their obedience to Rome and their own good works. (They even believe that baptism confers “grace,” giving them the ability to believe, which is an act of man and not of God alone.) This is, in other words, a choice they are making, on whether or not they wish to be justified by God, albeit, they claim they do so in cooperation with God. But if it is not all of grace, then it must be all of man. There is no middle-ground where the grace of God is insufficient to save a man.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Whenever God intends to give His grace to a man, it is described as a complete work.
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Notice the order of the words. Those whom He predestinates, are to be conformed to the image of His Son. It is not, those who, working with God, and are baptized, conform themselves to His Son and are then predestinated. It is the exact opposite.
Then he says, those whom God predestinates, He calls, and those He calls He justifies, and those He justifies He glorifies. No where is anyone receiving a call, and then answering it of his own free-will, and then being predestinated as a result.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Again, they believed because they were ordained. They did not get “ordained” because they believed.
There is also no failure here in God’s determination to have His elect.
Those whom God draws, come to Jesus without fail:
Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
No one can take them out of His hand:
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Not even in the heights of delusion by false-Christs working with devils, they cannot be lost.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
If it were possible means that it is not possible, though if salvation hinged on the man, it is always possible.
It is impossible, however, for someone to come to Christ or remain in Him who has not been drawn by the Father.
Joh 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
They do not believe because they are not His sheep. It is not, they do not believe, and therefore God shall not let them become His sheep.
It happens again here, in response to the Jews murmering in disbelief of Christ’s sayings.
Joh 6:42-44 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
He repeats the fact that they do not believe BECAUSE they were not drawn by the Father:
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, THEREFORE said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Salvation, then, is the complete work of God, who has mercy on whom He will have mercy, so that it is not him that runneth, or him that willeth, but on God who shows mercy.
Rom 9:14-25 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
All the Roman notions of grace and salvation, therefore, have no basis in the scripture.
People can believe whatever they want, but if they want to criticize something, they should know whereof they speak.
Oh, and the tax rate should be about 10%...!
Catholic respect for Mary is dulia/hyperdulia, not latria - the latter of which is reserved for God alone.
Ligouri was writing at a time when Marian devotion was under attack. If you read his “Glories of Mary” thoroughly, it is abundantly clear that Mary is “only a pure creature” who “receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God.” Further, “Jesus... has supreme dominion over all, and also over Mary.”
Catholic dogma on Mary contains four elements: Divine Motherhood, Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.
“Catholic respect for Mary is dulia/hyperdulia, not latria - the latter of which is reserved for God alone.
Ligouri was writing at a time when Marian devotion was under attack. If you read his Glories of Mary thoroughly, it is abundantly clear that Mary is only a pure creature who receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God. Further, Jesus... has supreme dominion over all, and also over Mary.
Catholic dogma on Mary contains four elements: Divine Motherhood, Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.”
None of which is supported in the scripture. Thus the Catholic retort that they do not deify Mary is in vain. Because they deify her as something more than man, and give her all sorts of devotion and place her on the way to salvation as a mediatrix, which is really through Christ only, and then protest “But we don’t think she is GOD! Just the MOTHER OF God, all-Holy ever-virgin seat of wisdom perpetual virgin whose prayers can deliver us from DEATH.”
Either salvation is ALL of God, or it is NOT. The Romans cannot make up their mind and pretend they can have it both ways.
Catholics do not believe that salvation is by grace alone,
and therefore argue that their salvation hinges on their obedience to Rome and their own good works.
Grossly oversimplified. But, yes, we do believe that James 2 and Matthew 25 are Scripture, and we do take them seriously, rather than trying to pretend they don't apply to us.
(They even believe that baptism confers grace,
Paul said that everyone who is baptized into Christ has put on Christ. Sounds like grace to me.
giving them the ability to believe, which is an act of man and not of God alone.)
Trent is crystal clear that faith precedes baptism in adults. That's why they profess their faith before they are baptized; look at the liturgy sometime. Duh! Do I really need to post quotes from magisterial documents declaring that faith is a gift of God??
Both you and Dutchboy hate a caricature you've been taught to hate, and have no understanding of the reality.
Really? You don't believe that the being Mary bore is Eternally God (that's what "Divine Motherhood" means, BTW)? Then you reject Christianity itself.
What isn't found in the Bible is the idea that all Christian doctrine is found in the Bible.
Either salvation is ALL of God, or it is NOT.
What also isn't found in Scripture is this kind of Ockhamite "either/or" nominalism. God involves people in his plan of salvation at every stage. He's God, he's sovereign, he makes the rules, and he gets to do that.
The "group" to which I refer is the demand for centralized organization, authority of Rome. That does not exist in the Scriptures. There were hundreds of separate, independent gatherings, congregations, assemblies meeting all over the world by the end of the first century. Paul saw no one group as superior or controlling the believers. He had little regard for reputations and apparently neither did God Himself (Gal. 2:6).
So, gathering together with other believers and attending to the teaching of the apostles, fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayer is not the same thing as needing a "group" (Acts 2:42).
You may wish to take a good Non-party theology course sometime. Rome has re-entered its Semi-Pelagian world whole hog.
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