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Pope Francis: self-help courses can turn Catholics into Pelagians
Catholic Herald ^ | 3/28/2013

Posted on 03/28/2013 5:58:16 AM PDT by markomalley

Pope Francis has said in his Chrism Mass homily that self-help courses can turn Catholics into “Pelagians” who “minimise the power of grace”.

The Pope said at a Mass in St Peter’s Basilica attended by about 1,600 priests that “it is not in soul-searching or constant introspection that we encounter the Lord”.

He said: “Self-help courses can be useful in life, but to live by going from one course to another, from one method to another, leads us to become Pelagians and to minimise the power of grace, which comes alive and flourishes to the extent that we, in faith, go out and give ourselves and the Gospel to others.” The Pelagian heresy, popular in the fifth century, holds that people are capable of choosing good without the grace of God.

In his homily, Pope Francis urged priests to “go out” and to live “in the midst of their flock”. He said that, like the “anointed ones”, Isaiah, David and Christ, priests are anounted so that they, in turn, can anount the faithful.

(Excerpt) Read more at catholicherald.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: catholic; faith; popefrancis
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Something to consider when perusing the plethora of self-help groups advertised your parish bulletin this Easter Sunday...
1 posted on 03/28/2013 5:58:16 AM PDT by markomalley
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To: markomalley

I get this.


2 posted on 03/28/2013 6:01:52 AM PDT by Fido969
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To: markomalley; smvoice; Alex Murphy; RnMomof7

The RCC is already semi-pelagian, so what harm would there be to take it all the way?


3 posted on 03/28/2013 6:02:58 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; smvoice; Alex Murphy; RnMomof7
The RCC is already semi-pelagian, so what harm would there be to take it all the way?

A very blessed Holy Thursday today...and Happy Easter to you all!

4 posted on 03/28/2013 6:04:16 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: markomalley

Yes. Great and new points for this age.


5 posted on 03/28/2013 6:17:18 AM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: Dutchboy88
The RCC is already semi-pelagian

You do not know what the terms "Pelagian" or "Semi-Pelagian" mean.

Hence your confusion regarding the Catholic Church's teaching, which embraces neither heresy.

6 posted on 03/28/2013 6:34:56 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: markomalley

I understand the pope partially but not the example given. No one should ever doubt that everything one does should be in reference to the Lord’s will for your life and his commandments. Please let’s discuss how this has anything to do with a self improvement class of some kind. I just don’t get this particular point


7 posted on 03/28/2013 6:36:52 AM PDT by SaintDismas
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To: Dutchboy88
The RCC is already semi-pelagian, so what harm would there be to take it all the way?

I just spewed Diet Mountain Dew all over my computer.

8 posted on 03/28/2013 6:39:04 AM PDT by Gamecock (He is Risen!)
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To: markomalley

Sounds like self help advice from the pope.


9 posted on 03/28/2013 6:42:27 AM PDT by polkajello
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To: markomalley

Ok never mind he makes perfect sense now that I read the article at the source. Basically saying get out of yourself, get out of the monastery or your rectory and go among the suffering, mainly speaking to the priests and to all. Nothing derogatory specifically in reference to learning. Just a back to basics of faith you don’t need anything fancy, love your neighbor live the Gospel all the instruction and methods are plain to see


10 posted on 03/28/2013 6:47:29 AM PDT by SaintDismas
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To: Gamecock
I just spewed Diet Mountain Dew all over my computer.

Good, good - I approve of your choice of beverage. Now go and seek out the Taco-Bell-Doritos-Locos-Nacho-Taco-flavored Doritos, and your journey will be complete.

11 posted on 03/28/2013 6:56:05 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: polkajello; Gamecock
Sounds like self help advice from the pope.

I just spewed Diet A&W Cream Soda all over my computer.

12 posted on 03/28/2013 6:57:46 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: wideawake
"You do not know what the terms "Pelagian" or "Semi-Pelagian" mean."

Perhaps you need to review the Augustinian/Pelagian controversy yourself and get back to us...

13 posted on 03/28/2013 7:00:32 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Gamecock
"I just spewed Diet Mountain Dew all over my computer."

Sorry about that. A new one is on its way.

14 posted on 03/28/2013 7:01:58 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: markomalley
"A very blessed Holy Thursday today...and Happy Easter to you all!"

The apostle Paul..."Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

The RCC may get a big charge out of celebrating the day it believes Jesus arose from the dead. Their problem is that they cannot deal with Him actually resurrected. They need Him on a cross, smaller than Mary, kept in His place under the organizational control. A deluding influence has settled on Rome.

15 posted on 03/28/2013 7:09:13 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; Gamecock; polkajello
The apostle Paul..."Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink..."

Commence the spraying of many carbonated beverages, and let the various flavored chips fall where they may.

16 posted on 03/28/2013 7:16:07 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: markomalley

I used to work with a guy who was a lapsed Catholic, that read a tried to apply all the positive thinking books he could get his hands on. He wanted to make more money for him and his wife. No interest in the rest of his family, the community, the poor or lonely or sick. And no thought of asking God for help.

Wonder if Francis knows anybody like my co-worker.


17 posted on 03/28/2013 7:18:14 AM PDT by married21
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To: Dutchboy88
Perhaps you need to review the Augustinian/Pelagian controversy yourself and get back to us...

Is that the royal plural you're using?

The Catholic Church identified and condemned Pelagianism before Pelagius himself was even in the ground. It likewise identified and condemned Semi-Pelagianism almost 1500 years ago.

I am hardly an expert on the controversy between Augustine and Pelagius, but at this point it seems likely that I better informed about it than you are.

18 posted on 03/28/2013 7:20:45 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Dutchboy88
They need Him on a cross

Hmm.

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

I guess St. Paul didn't have as deep a knowledge of the Gospel as "Dutchboy88."

19 posted on 03/28/2013 7:28:14 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Dutchboy88

From your post, it appears you are deluded about Roman Catholic doctrine, teaching and practice. The Risen Christ is worshiped, His Mother merely venerated.


20 posted on 03/28/2013 7:29:23 AM PDT by karnage
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To: Dutchboy88
And a shroud.
Seens elsewhere on FR: Holy Shroud:The essence of religion meets human science
21 posted on 03/28/2013 7:37:30 AM PDT by Gamecock (He is Risen!)
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To: Gamecock

What is the point you are trying to make by linking to a thread about the shroud?


22 posted on 03/28/2013 8:26:12 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: karnage; All

Being correct about our beliefs isn’t really necessary for some. It can even be a hindrance to them. Their religion seems to be almost entirely comprised of “Not Catholic.”

It’s quite futile to try to correct one aspect, because they must have it or another to oppose. Without something they are against, Catholicism in this case, all their energy about religion disappears.


23 posted on 03/28/2013 8:29:20 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

Bingo. It seems to be extremely important for some here on FR to go to Catholic related threads and bash Catholicism. It appears to be their chief focus with respect to Christianity. Its almost cult-like. I hope they get over it some day, at least before they die.


24 posted on 03/28/2013 8:44:45 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: Dutchboy88; markomalley

4 minutes and 42 seconds to the first bash. What’s the record?


25 posted on 03/28/2013 8:56:09 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
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To: markomalley

The bulletins in this area seem to have ads only for plumbers and carpet layers but good advice for those who do.

I have seen Christians harmed by involvement in these self-help groups, many of which are cults headed by a guru of some kind (not necessarily Indian).

These groups commonly offer a feel-good philosophy which is meant to supplant one’s Christian orientation.


26 posted on 03/28/2013 9:09:51 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not NurtureĀ™)
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: D-fendr
Without something they are against, Catholicism in this case, all their energy about religion disappears

Believe what you wish. But know that casually extending that beyond some narrow range is bigotry.

Like the saying goes "if you don't stop doing that, you'll go blind"...

28 posted on 03/28/2013 9:37:55 AM PDT by BlueDragon (the beatings will continue until morale improves)
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To: HerrBlucher
It seems to be extremely important for some here on FR to go to Catholic related threads and bash Catholicism.

Scanning comments, one can see many different claims, which enduces response on the part of another, much as I am replying to you now, and as you have commented concerning others replies here.

Its almost cult-like. I hope they get over it some day, at least before they die.

Right back at you.

29 posted on 03/28/2013 9:44:43 AM PDT by BlueDragon (the beatings will continue until morale improves)
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To: BlueDragon
Scanning comments, one can see many different claims, which enduces response on the part of another

And what claim would that be?

30 posted on 03/28/2013 9:49:05 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: BlueDragon
Right back at you.

I have nothing to get over. I don't go to Protestant threads and initiate Protestant bashing. What happened on this thread is equivalent to a Catholic coming to a Protestant thread, and without any anti-Catholic provocation post something like this:

31 posted on 03/28/2013 10:18:12 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: karnage; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; Alex Murphy; ...
"From your post, it appears you are deluded about Roman Catholic doctrine, teaching and practice. The Risen Christ is worshiped, His Mother merely venerated."

Deluded? Perhaps you wish to read St.(?)Alphonsus de Liguori's, The Glories of Mary, pp. 82-83, 94, 160, 169-70:

"Sinners receive pardon by...Mary alone. He falls and is lost who has not recourse to Mary. Mary is called...the gate of Heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her. The way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary...the salvation of all depends on their being favored and protected by Mary. He who is protected by Mary WILL BE SAVED; he who is not WILL BE LOST...our salvation depends on thee...God will not save us without the intercession of Mary...who would receive any grace were it not for thee, O Mother of God?"

In the one or two RCC edifices I have been in (choke), I notice the Mary idol is larger than the Jesus idol. And, "Jesus" is always on a cross. And, what chant is more popular than, "Hail Mary, full of grace..."?

32 posted on 03/28/2013 10:40:39 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Alex Murphy
"Commence the spraying of many carbonated beverages, and let the various flavored chips fall where they may."

We have incoming...

33 posted on 03/28/2013 10:41:31 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
Sinners receive pardon by...Mary alone.

Great stuff.

Interesting use of ellipsis, there.

Were there any other words between "by" and "Mary" in that sentence, or did St. Alphonsus just include a dramatic pause?

Here's a hint: that sentence does not exist in the book "The Glories of Mary." (Not in the standard English translation, nor in the original Italian.)

Your source, or more likely you, invented it.

34 posted on 03/28/2013 11:30:54 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Dutchboy88
In the one or two RCC edifices I have been in (choke), I notice the Mary idol is larger than the Jesus idol. And, "Jesus" is always on a cross. And, what chant is more popular than, "Hail Mary, full of grace..."?

You are so funny. You know I think you may be on to something though...I have a statue of Mary on the mantlepiece of my fireplace and a Cross on the wall next to it, complete with the image of Jesus. I measured the size of the statue against the Cross and by jove Mary is bigger....Oh noooooooooooo...LOL!

Tell me, how often is Mary mentioned in the Mass? (assuming you have been to a Mass and actually listened)? I can only think of once, during the opening confession "....therefore I ask Blessed Mary ever virgin, all the angels and the saints, and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God."

And regarding "Hail Mary", you are right it is popular, even the Angel Gabriel like to say it.

According to the CCC, here is what the Hail Mary is all about.

2676 Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.

Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel's greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst." Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men." Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed." "Blessed is she who believed. . . . " Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth. Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word." By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

35 posted on 03/28/2013 11:42:08 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: Dutchboy88
You might want to look into that.

PELAGIANISM

Heretical teaching on grace of Pelagius (355-425), the English or Irish lay monk who first propagated his views in Rome in the time of Pope Anastasius (reigned 399-401). He was scandalized at St. Augustine's teaching on the need for grace to remain chaste, arguing that this imperiled man's use of his own free will. Pelagius wrote and spoke extensively and was several times condemned by Church councils during his lifetime, notably the Councils of Carthage and Mileve in 416, confirmed the following year by Pope Innocent I. Pelagius deceived the next Pope, Zozimus, who at first exonerated the heretic, but soon (418) retracted his decision. Pelagianism is a cluster of doctrinal errors, some of which have plagued the Church ever since. Its principal tenets are: 1. Adam would have died even if he had not sinned; 2. Adam's fall injured only himself and at worst affected his posterity by giving them a bad example; 3. newborn children are in the same condition as Adam before he fell; 4. mankind will not die because of Adam's sin or rise on the Last Day because of Christ's redemption; 5. the law of ancient Israel no less than the Gospel offers equal opportunity to reach heaven. As Pelagianism later developed, it totally denied the supernatural order and the necessity of grace for salvation.

All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.

36 posted on 03/28/2013 11:45:46 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: HerrBlucher; BlueDragon; markomalley
I don't go to Protestant threads and initiate Protestant bashing.

There are no such things as "Protestant" and "Catholic" threads in the Religion Forum. Rather, there are "open" threads, "ecumenical" threads, and "caucus / devotional / prayer" threads. You can read more about them here. FReeper markomalley posted this topic as an open thread. Antagonism should be expected in "open" threads, and a thick skin is always required (and expected) to participate effectively. Old-timers in the Religion Forum know that "open" threads will often lead to heated and often contentious debate, hence the need for a thick(er) skin, or else the debate will become a flame war.

What happened on this thread is equivalent to a Catholic coming to a Protestant thread, and without any anti-Catholic provocation post something like this

Protestants and Catholics are free to post "provocative" material on open threads, so long as the contents don't fall outside of FR general guidelines. If posters are getting their feelings hurt because others ridicule or disapprove or hate what they hold dear, then that poster is probably too thin-skinned to be involved in "open" Religion Forum threads. They should learn to ignore "open" threads altogether and instead post to threads labeled "prayer", "devotional", "caucus" or "ecumenical."

37 posted on 03/28/2013 12:29:37 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: Gamecock; a fool in paradise
Too much Pope in the news and not enough POP!


38 posted on 03/28/2013 12:32:29 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Of course. It is an open thread and anything goes on those. However, our actions show our character and what motivates us. I don’t don’t initiate Protestant bashing because I think it shows bad character, and also would be indicative of a deep seated hostility, uneasiness, discomfort, and defensiveness that would be embarrassing. Also, I don’t want to bash my fellow Christian brothers and sisters, there is just something...well..unchristian about it.

However, if people want to embarrass themselves, and show their character flaws for all to see, they are certainly free to do it, as you have pointed out.....on open threads that is.


39 posted on 03/28/2013 1:03:10 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: HerrBlucher; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; Alex Murphy; ...
"And regarding "Hail Mary", you are right it is popular, even the Angel Gabriel like to say it."

You sound like a nice fellow, but this is nonsense. Gabriel did not like to say it. He said it one time, on orders just as with Zacharias, to explain what Mary was about to go through. She then recognized her need for a Savior and who needs Saviors except sinners? How then did she become a co-redemptrix?

"According to the CCC, here is what the Hail Mary is all about."

Save your explanation. Information on Mary is useless to one who has been captured by Jesus, the Son of God, alone. No props, no groups, no rituals, no ceremonies, no transubstantiation, no purgatory, no indulgences, no sacerdotalism, no mariolatry, no men in pointy hats, my FRiend...just Jesus. When He grants faith as a gift of grace, there is no need for trying to be heard for many words. You may look into this sometime...if He permits.

40 posted on 03/28/2013 1:41:48 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: markomalley

:) This Pope is all that I had hoped and prayed for, and more. I’m so thankful that Pope Benedict is still with us, so that he can offer wise counsel to Pope Francis. With all that is happening in the world today, this is one very bright light.


41 posted on 03/28/2013 1:48:44 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: wideawake

Go read the entire sections.


42 posted on 03/28/2013 1:52:18 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
Entire sections of a fictional book that exists only in your head?

The actual Gloriae Mariae does not contain the made-up quote you posted above.

43 posted on 03/28/2013 2:45:51 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: HerrBlucher; Alex Murphy
"Of course. It is an open thread and anything goes on those. However, our actions show our character and what motivates us. I don’t don’t initiate Protestant bashing because I think it shows bad character, and also would be indicative of a deep seated hostility, uneasiness, discomfort, and defensiveness that would be embarrassing. Also, I don’t want to bash my fellow Christian brothers and sisters, there is just something...well..unchristian about it."

My FRiend, this is not one Christian telling other Christians that they are stupid. I want to be perfectly clear, I am simply saying that the Roman organization is NOT CHRISTIAN in any sense of the word. If you are a believer, then you are a believer in spite of Rome, not because of Rome. And, I am not bashing you.

Rome may speak about Jesus, but even the Mormon group does that. But Rome teaches something akin to Judaism 2.0. I am calling out the errors and appealing to those inside of the organization to escape into the light of Jesus, alone...if He allows (Rom. 9).

44 posted on 03/28/2013 3:18:11 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: wideawake

You may wish to revisit the sections and read it carefully.


45 posted on 03/28/2013 3:19:22 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Salvation; Alex Murphy
If you care to re-read my post, you will notice I said the Roman organization was Semi-pelagian already, and thus dragging it fully into Pelagianism would not be a stretch.

Semi-pelagianism, like Arminianism, allows that God's grace must operate on a man...but is operating on all men (common grace). Then, with this common (prevenient) grace at work, the man is given the choice to follow Christ or reject Christ. This "little island of righteousness", just a tiny atoll, is sufficient to grant the man enough wherewithal to accept or reject the grace needed to save. Although it was also condemned (centuries ago), it has become the theology de jure with Rome today. And now this errant doctrine is not just a problem with Rome...it has permeated much of the so-called Protestant movement.

46 posted on 03/28/2013 3:30:55 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: wideawake

Ping to 46


47 posted on 03/28/2013 3:32:07 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: HerrBlucher
And what claim would that be?

The ones that are frequently responded to. It's only been going on around here for years, back-and-forth, over and over.

It's called the FreeRepublic religion forum. It's the way it works, for better and worse.

48 posted on 03/28/2013 3:37:27 PM PDT by BlueDragon (the beatings will continue until morale improves)
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To: markomalley

A Jebbie Hitting pelagianism! Somewhere Pascal is smiling.


49 posted on 03/28/2013 7:12:39 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Dutchboy88

As Pascal said, man is a reed, but a thinking reed.


50 posted on 03/28/2013 7:15:32 PM PDT by RobbyS
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