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Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery'
telegraph.co.uk ^ | March 28, 2013 | Nick Squires

Posted on 03/28/2013 9:56:57 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012

Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.

Many Catholics believe that the 14ft-long linen cloth, which bears the imprint of the face and body of a bearded man, was used to bury Christ's body when he was lifted down from the cross after being crucified 2,000 years ago.

The analysis is published in a new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University, and Saverio Gaeta, a journalist.

The tests will revive the debate about the true origins of one of Christianity's most prized but mysterious relics and are likely to be hotly contested by sceptics.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: shroud; shroudbook; shroudofturin
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1 posted on 03/28/2013 9:56:57 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

It either is or it ain’t. It makes no difference one way or another...........


2 posted on 03/28/2013 10:02:29 AM PDT by Red Badger (Want to be surprised? Google your own name......Want to have fun? Google your friend's names........)
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To: ilovesarah2012
"The tests will revive the debate about the true origins of one of Christianity's most prized but mysterious relics and are likely to be hotly contested by sceptics."

The sceptics sure do love their science except when the scientific conclusions conflict with their, um....beliefs.

3 posted on 03/28/2013 10:05:30 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: Red Badger

That a burial cloth over 2000 years old survived this long is pretty amazing.


4 posted on 03/28/2013 10:15:58 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The monsters are due on Maple Street)
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To: UCANSEE2

That a burial cloth over 2000 years old survived this long is pretty amazing.


Yes. Yes it is. ;-)


5 posted on 03/28/2013 10:19:32 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: UCANSEE2
That a burial cloth over 2000 years old survived this long is pretty amazing.

I can only hope that mine does the same!

6 posted on 03/28/2013 10:21:47 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Joe 6-pack

I’m completely neutral on this thing from a scientific standpoint. I apply occam’s razor until scientific evidence allows me to make a more “informed” decision.

But so far I have no reason to believe what it is claimed to be. My faith would not be shaken in the least if this turned out to be real or fake. It’s really pretty irrelevant. I’ll say this though, if this turns out to be real, its existence does not align too well with my perception of the character of God. It’s one of the reasons I’ll need hard evidence to be convinced.


7 posted on 03/28/2013 10:23:49 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: UCANSEE2

Properly stored and taken care of, it should last indefinitely. Isn’t it stored in a pure dry nitrogen atmosphere?..........


8 posted on 03/28/2013 10:26:11 AM PDT by Red Badger (Want to be surprised? Google your own name......Want to have fun? Google your friend's names........)
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To: ilovesarah2012
This is an interesting portion of the article:

For the first time, an app has been created to enable people to explore the holy relic in detail on their smart phones and tablets.

The app, sanctioned by the Catholic Church and called "Shroud 2.0", features high definition photographs of the cloth and enables users to see details that would otherwise be invisible to the naked eye.

"For the first time in history the most detailed image of the shroud ever achieved becomes available to the whole world, thanks to a streaming system which allows a close-up view of the cloth. Each detail of the cloth can be magnified and visualised in a way which would otherwise not be possible," Haltadefinizione, the makers of the app, said.

9 posted on 03/28/2013 10:27:20 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: cuban leaf

I would think that venerating a cloth with an image upon it would be in direct conflict with the Ten Commandments.........


10 posted on 03/28/2013 10:28:18 AM PDT by Red Badger (Want to be surprised? Google your own name......Want to have fun? Google your friend's names........)
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To: Red Badger

I would think that venerating a cloth with an image upon it would be in direct conflict with the Ten Commandments.........


Zactly.


11 posted on 03/28/2013 10:36:47 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: ilovesarah2012
If the shroud is a Medieval forgery how was it made? In those less educated and sophisticated times there would have been no need to create an image that defies explanation even by 21st century technology. Research over the last two decades have conclusively determined the image was not painted... the most likely explanation for a 13th century forgery. Other explanations including some type of photographic image technique or chemical process while plausible by 21st century understanding would likely have been inconceivable at the time the forgery was said to have been made. The anatomical features of the image also contain details that some Medieval forger would not likely have known.

What this image is and how it was made are a mystery, but to attribute it to being a Medieval forgery is too simple an explanation for what is seen on the shroud. Bogus religious relics were commonly made during the Medieval period. While some surviving examples of these relics were very cleverly done, none show anything like the sophisticated image on the shroud and are easily seen as frauds with modern analysis. No forged relic at that time would have needed to be that good to accomplish what the makers intended...making money from a gullible populous.

12 posted on 03/28/2013 10:47:09 AM PDT by The Great RJ
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To: cuban leaf

“My faith would not be shaken in the least if this turned out to be real or fake.”

I agree, I don’t put my faith in a piece of cloth, so if it was shown to be a fake, it won’t affect my faith in Jesus. However, I do think the evidence tends to point more to it being authentic than to it being a fake.

“I’ll say this though, if this turns out to be real, its existence does not align too well with my perception of the character of God. It’s one of the reasons I’ll need hard evidence to be convinced.”

I’m curious... what about it doesn’t align well?


13 posted on 03/28/2013 10:47:15 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: ilovesarah2012

IR and Raman spectroscopy are applicable for determining the composition of a sample. There are some recent articles on using it in forensic analysis to determine the age of recent materials in terms of hours or days when a good reference is used. I haven’t found anything that describes its usefulness in dating anthropological samples.

Some guy with a title used a gizmo to come up with a number that will sell some books.


14 posted on 03/28/2013 10:52:21 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: Jack of all Trades

I think it’s Jesus.


15 posted on 03/28/2013 10:55:37 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

There is HUGE significance to all of this. Of course among those of us who already believe, this changes nothing. What this does do is bridge the gap that often exists between history and theology and yes even science.

Most of the ancient religions such as the ancient Roman, Greek, and Egyptian religions were based upon myths, supersticians, and a multitude of gods.

Judaism was the first religion to arise based on the belief in one God and historical events. Many atheists and agnostics dismiss the Bible as basically a collection of fairy tales and myths.

The correct dating of the Shroud of Turin, along with the crucifixtion wounds on it which conform exactly and precisely to Gospel accounts, along with other recent developments such as the sightings of Noah’s Ark on Mount Ararat along with other archaelogical discoveries prove conclusively to me that Christianity and Judaism are historical faiths based upon real people and real events which factually occurred. This, IMHO, is the significance of the story above. IT HAPPENED!!!!!!

Happy Easter to all!!!!


16 posted on 03/28/2013 11:00:54 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

I agree.

Happy Easter. He is risen.


17 posted on 03/28/2013 11:04:42 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Boogieman

Well said. That’s where I’m at. It is a given that no christian relies on a relic for their faith. We shouldn’t have to keep saying that. I have always thought the odds were high that this is the real deal. The carbon dating was troublesome though

My question is whether these new tests are more or less accurate than the carbon dating. I have trouble reconciling these diferent test methods.


18 posted on 03/28/2013 11:05:38 AM PDT by plain talk
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To: Red Badger

Sure. People who worship a cloth violate the First Commandment.

However, how many people do you realistically think are making that kind of mistake? Really?

Nobody asks it to cure their cancer or find them a job. It’s not a magic item. People get that.

If authentic, it’s a sign, one among many in this world, that God loves us and wants us to find Him. If not, it’s an old cloth that reminds us merely of our searching, not our destination... interesting historically, but not helpful spiritually.


19 posted on 03/28/2013 11:07:08 AM PDT by married21
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To: ilovesarah2012

I wonder, if the original cross was found; there would be blood on it. It would be the blood of Jesus the Messiah.

What would the dna look like?


20 posted on 03/28/2013 11:25:52 AM PDT by liege (You don't drive out the darkness; you turn on the light.)
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To: liege

I wonder what did happen to the cross? But if found, how would you know it was the one used to crucify Jesus?


21 posted on 03/28/2013 11:26:52 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

He has risen indeed.


22 posted on 03/28/2013 11:29:13 AM PDT by bmwcyle (People who do not study history are destine to believe really ignorant statements.)
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To: liege
It would be the blood of Jesus the Messiah. What would the dna look like?

Perfect.

23 posted on 03/28/2013 11:29:46 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("AP" clearly stands for American Pravda. Our news media has become completely and proudly Soviet.)
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To: Lazamataz

Of course.


24 posted on 03/28/2013 11:32:14 AM PDT by liege (You don't drive out the darkness; you turn on the light.)
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To: ilovesarah2012

My assumption is that it would be genuine.


25 posted on 03/28/2013 11:35:00 AM PDT by liege (You don't drive out the darkness; you turn on the light.)
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To: liege

Ron Wyatt talking about JESUS blood sample
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EGLPADW_kUw


26 posted on 03/28/2013 11:42:14 AM PDT by Lera (Proverbs 29:2)
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To: ilovesarah2012
I have figgered it out. The Shroud must be a phony.
We all know that Jesus looked very European with brown light brown hair, blue eyes and very European facial features.
Just like the painting hanging in my church and probably most Christian Churches in the world.
The figure on the Shroud looks like someone from the Mideast.
27 posted on 03/28/2013 11:48:30 AM PDT by Tupelo (Old, Bald, Ugly, Fat and Broke in Arizona)
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To: Tupelo

Chinese Jesus -

http://www.amoymagic.com/XLife/life_aq.jpg

We see Jesus as someone who looks like us. Perhaps He will appear different to us all. I always remember that He healed three blind men different ways.


28 posted on 03/28/2013 11:55:06 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

The “true” cross was said to have been found and retrieved by St. Helena, the mother of Constantine the Great. She died in A.D. 330. She made a trip to the Holy Land in 326-328.


29 posted on 03/28/2013 11:56:46 AM PDT by Rich21IE
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To: married21
Nobody asks it to cure their cancer or find them a job.

You'd be surprised.........

30 posted on 03/28/2013 11:58:52 AM PDT by Red Badger (Want to be surprised? Google your own name......Want to have fun? Google your friend's names........)
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To: Red Badger
I would think that venerating a cloth with an image upon it would be in direct conflict with the Ten Commandments.........

Beats "speaking in tongues" and snake handling.

31 posted on 03/28/2013 12:01:43 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Rich21IE

Interesting. How did they know it was the “true” cross and what happened to it?


32 posted on 03/28/2013 12:03:22 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: UCANSEE2
They really knew how to make things back then.
And it wasn't made by children in a sweatshop.
33 posted on 03/28/2013 12:04:35 PM PDT by Tanniker Smith (Rome didn't fall in a day, either.)
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To: plain talk

Carbon dating is pretty accurate back to a few thousand years, but none of the radiometric dating methods are “exact” measurements. They all require certain assumptions and predefined reference points in order to make a date estimate.

The problem with the shroud dating is that the assumptions may have been wrong, and then the dating wouldn’t be reliable at all. They assumed that every section of the shroud was original, but some fabric seems to have been added when repairs were made. So, if they tested the repaired portion and assumed it was original, the dating wouldn’t be worth much.


34 posted on 03/28/2013 12:05:50 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman

That’s correct. The Shroud was severely damaged in a fire in 1532. It was repaired by a group of nuns called the Poor Clare Nuns and they used patches to repair portions of the cloth damaged by fire. I suspect when they did the first carbon dating, they dated those portions of the newer cloth. The image on the cloth, however, was miraculously untouched by the fire.


35 posted on 03/28/2013 12:18:06 PM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: Revolting cat!

...or drinking strychnine........


36 posted on 03/28/2013 12:32:13 PM PDT by Red Badger (Want to be surprised? Google your own name......Want to have fun? Google your friend's names........)
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To: Red Badger; cuban leaf
"I would think that venerating a cloth with an image upon it would be in direct conflict with the Ten Commandments.."

...he said, while crouched in front of an image on a video display system made of pixels...

37 posted on 03/28/2013 1:27:53 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("You can observe a lot just by watchin' ." - Yogi Berra)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Ouch, that’s gonna hurt! Call the Waaaaambulance!


38 posted on 03/28/2013 1:28:59 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I don’t worship my computer. I am its slave..........


39 posted on 03/28/2013 1:30:59 PM PDT by Red Badger (Want to be surprised? Google your own name......Want to have fun? Google your friend's names........)
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To: Red Badger
"I don’t worship my computer. I am its slave..."

I've gone off and blackened cooking pots on the stove 'cause I ran back to the Internet to make some wisecrack on Free Republic. Yeah, I render unto my computer burnt offerings...

:o)

40 posted on 03/28/2013 1:34:57 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("You can observe a lot just by watchin' ." - Yogi Berra)
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To: Lazamataz

Um. There is blood on the shroud. As well as blood on a head-wrap with some fancy name kept in some other church. Not sure what tests have been done on the blood.

Found it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo


41 posted on 03/28/2013 1:35:30 PM PDT by 21twelve ("We've got the guns, and we got the numbers" adapted and revised from Jim M.)
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To: ilovesarah2012
As for the shroud I have no doubt it is an artifact from the resurrection.

About the crucifixion. This is a horrific death. Say you're a coroner, what do you list as the cause of death on a crucifixion victim?

First it's your last stand, so you're beaten into submission and nails are placed in your wrists and one through both feet. Then you are raised up and gravity goes to work. While hanging by your wrists you can't breath, so you painfully push up with your feet to gulp some air into your lungs. All day long it's back and forth gasping for air. Finally when the Romans think the show is over they break your legs so you can't push up and you suffocate.

Hear what one of the former researchers commented about the shroud. He said this was a violent death, yet the face on the shroud is one of peace. Top that!

I'm all for science, now analyze the DNA!

Anyway, it's Holy Week so let's learn something (else)!

Kabbalah TV: Kabbalah & Christianity Part 2 with Billy Phillips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO0HGteKB4E

The mystery of Golgotha and INRI

42 posted on 03/28/2013 1:39:48 PM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (EL CHaY)
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To: ilovesarah2012

Well, in responding to your post, I checked Wikipedia, (yea, I admit I’m not a genius), and according to their entry, St. Helena contracted to do excavation in an area near around a Roman Temple and three crosses were unearthed. (In the process she destroyed the Roman Temple). It is said that she wanted proof positive as to which of the crosses was the one upon which Christ was hung so she ordered that a sick woman be brought to the site and had the woman touch the crosses. The first two had no effect, but upon touching the third, she was immediately and miraculously healed.

I somewhat recall having heard that story in the 1970’s from my Grandmother, whose name was Helen and her patron saint was St. Helena and she had made quite a study of St. Helena’s adventures in life, (and they were plentiful). I’m a “believer” and active Roman Catholic and love the tale and would love to believe it true, but as well, I lived in Rome for 3 years and am quite an avid student of Roman history and have to tell you I’m somewhat skeptical.

On the one hand, I do believe that Helena was quite meticulous, wise and a very strong and determined woman, (and wealthy as well having made an “Augusta” Co-Empress of the Empire), but all of that notwithstanding, the truth of the matter is that Crucifixion was as common in the Empire as sacrifices to Quetzelcotle were in Mexico City, (and they had hundreds of yards of Skull racks lining their Main Street). In fact, hundreds of criminals and insurgents were crucified a month; the main roads into the major cities were lined with crosses upon which people hung. And from the histories I’ve read, they re-used the crosses over and over again. Along major Roman roads, you’ll see stones into which have been carved square holes into which they set crosses. Travellers knew they were approaching a major Roman city when they started to pass crosses adorned with the drooping bodies of the dead and/or dying along the road.

So, like..........really? What are the chances? And of course, to make matters worse, Helena, in Jerusalem, was in a virtual Christian tourist trap. At that time, the major industry was catering to Pilgrims from all over coming to see Jerusalem and the place where Jesus was crucified. The roads and streets would have been litered with people selling “sacred” artifacts. They probably had “sacred” artifact factories! I haven’t been to Jerusalem, but I’d be willing to bet there are tourist shops there, even today, where you can buy pieces of the true cross and the real nails and the crown of thorns. Its been a racket for 2000 years!


43 posted on 03/28/2013 1:41:18 PM PDT by Rich21IE
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To: ilovesarah2012

I get a kick out of people who say: If it’s real, it makes absolutely no difference.

If it’s real, then it’s physical evidence, in the here and now, of the Resurrection. It’s a physical artifact which God himself had a direct hand in producing.

So you above-it-all people are really saying that God wasted his time producing a powerful, physical sign that is akin to the miracles of Jesus in the Gospels.

Yes: I understand that there are sufficient motives for belief, even for those who have never heard of the Shroud. Obviously. But the dismissive, superior attitude is what gets me.


44 posted on 03/28/2013 2:33:42 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: Rich21IE

All of this is irrelevant.

Since 1898, it has been known that the image on the Shroud is a photographic negative—a thing that no human being could have conceived, let alone produced, before the advent of photography. Repeated attempts by competent artists, in modern times, to paint negatives, have produced nothing but grotesque images.

Since 1978, it has been discovered that the gradations of the image on the Shroud correspond to the DISTANCE of the surfaces of the body on the Shroud from the surface of the cloth—something that no one was capable of conceiving or detecting before digital analysis of images was possible.

Since 1978, it has been discovered that the image exists on the surface of the fibers of the Shroud—that no pigment or other material foreign to the fabric itself is present.

Anyone who suggests that this image was produced by hand—in the Middle Ages or any other time—is simply ignoring a vast body of hard data about the Shroud, and is an idle, irresponsible dilettante.


45 posted on 03/28/2013 2:44:28 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: cuban leaf

Miraculous, even.


46 posted on 03/28/2013 2:50:52 PM PDT by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it getting so hot?)
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To: Rich21IE

Reminds me of all the “Cherokee” artifacts in Cherokee, NC and you look on the back of them and they say “Made in China”. LOL

Still, I have been amazed by the Shroud for many years and the first time I could plainly see the image of the face in a picture, I got chills and tears. I would love to know what Jesus looked like and the Shroud gives me an idea.


47 posted on 03/28/2013 3:19:03 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Red Badger

If you are a jew, worshipping jesus as God is a violation. That whether you make an image of him or not.


48 posted on 03/28/2013 3:20:38 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Rich21IE
Helen came to the Holy City, which had been totally destroyed and reshaped and renamed by the Emperor Hadrian in the 130s, after the last great Jewish uprising against Roman rule. Very likely there was a Christian memorial of some sort at the site of the crucifixion, which may have been the reason for the erection of the temple on the site. But Jews, including Christian Jews were forbidden to live in what now became a Roman garrison town. Not an easy place to get to, one can assume, nor a place welcoming to pilgrims. The Church grew greatly over the next two hundred years, but after 250, it was savagely persecuted up until the time of Constantine’s victory. After that time, it DID become a major attraction, and renamed Jerusalem, it was filled with churches. The Church of the Holy Sepulcher is said to had a dome that was about twice as high as it is now, and that after the Muslims took the city, they built the dome of the rock more or less as a replica’ of the one that Helen built. So your cynicism is misplaced. Only after she came did it become a “ tourist trap.”
49 posted on 03/28/2013 3:40:38 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Red Badger
Maybe it is now....but for the first 2,000 years ....?????Properly stored and taken care of, it should last indefinitely. Isn’t it stored in a pure dry nitrogen atmosphere?..........
50 posted on 03/28/2013 7:20:11 PM PDT by terycarl
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