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'I do this with my heart,' Pope says before washing inmates' feet
cna ^ | March 28, 2013 | David Uebbing

Posted on 03/28/2013 1:58:30 PM PDT by NYer

Edited on 03/28/2013 7:47:59 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

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To: Mrs. Don-o
I understand what you are saying and I certainly respect your perspective. And frankly I don't trust my own gut instincts lately because they've been all over the spectrum with our new Holy Father.

And I empathize with his love of the poor and downtrodden. I've been on a number of mission trips to Haiti and the first world western nations don't have a clue about the reality of poverty in our own back yard. My oldest son just returned from a spring break "mission trip" with the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal in the Bronx and gained a new perspective on the reality of poverty in our own country (as well as some of the sinful structures that cause and prolong it.)

But ultimately the goal of all apostolic work is the salvation of souls. Our charitable efforts mean nothing if that is not at its core.

So this humble-man-of-the-streets pope can do whatever he pleases just as long as in the end it contributes to the ultimate salvation of the greatst number of souls. And evangelization requires humility.

It also requires Christian unity. We've wasted 50 years trying to be ecumenical with the Protestants, and its gained us nothing except the watering down and protestantizing of our liturgy and theology. We should have never tried to build ecumenical relations with the Protestants when it came at the expense of our ecumenical relations with Orthodoxy. Because when we disregard and belittle our own liturgical traditions and Traditions (i.e., protrstantize them) it negatively effects our ecumenical relations with the East.

Protestantism is eventually going to cease to exist and what remains of it more and more will become an enemy of the orthodoxy of Eastern and Western Christianity.

These little things Pope Francis is doing are being watched very closely by the only ecumenical partners we have in the world that truly matter, the Orthodox. And if this disregard for important gender issues that directly relate to things like the institution of the all male priesthood on Holy Thirsday continues, it will set back our common work and common cause with the Orthodox. And the longer that is set back and set aside, the longer we fail to work towards the salvation of the greatest number of souls.

Because that ultimate goal, the salvation of the greatest number of souls, will never happen until East and West are once more ONE.

That's not going to happen soon if the East sees this Holy Father as disrespecting the efforts of Benedict XVI to restore our liturgical traditions that we gutted following Vatican II or playing fast and lose with the liturgy most closely tied to the institution of the all male priesthood on Holy Thursday, an all male priesthood common to both East and West and shared only by these true Churches as delineated in Dominus Iesus.

It always comes back to Fatima, and the reunion with the East is an integral part of the Fatima plan for peace and the final evangelization.

"I am worried by the Blessed Virgin's messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul. … I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past."- Msgr. Eugene Pacelli, the future Pope Pius XII

51 posted on 03/28/2013 11:21:59 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
relations with Orthodoxy.

Orthodox ears perked up when

1. Pope emphasized his title as Bishop of Rome.
and
2. He gave Easter eggs after washing feet.

I am sure you will find Orthodox who will be displeased with the females foot washing. If that comes up in dialogue, one would hope that the Pope's thinking behind it could be laid out to satisfaction.

52 posted on 03/29/2013 9:37:30 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; haffast; Tax-chick; little jeremiah; New Jersey Realist; pbear8; rarestia; don-o; ..
Matthew 10:16
"I am sending you out like sheep surrounded by wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

Your perspective is valuable to me, and I thank you for your time and care in setting it forth so thoughtfully.

Quickly scan the highlights of Papa Francisco's life and you may begin to suspect, as I do, that this man --- with the shrewdness of a serpent and the innocence of a dove ---is a savvy operator and a saint.

Look:

About the Sacraments and the Liturgy: look, he hit the ground running with Summorum Pontificum within two days of its publication. He is not going to throw the essentials overboard: quite the contrary. He's going to rescue them. He's going to show why "Priest" means "Father" and why the brocade and lace of Majesty please God best when worn over the alb of Poverty.

Everyone knows a priest has to be a male. He is going to show that he has to be a man.

None of this indicates rupture from the Great Tradition or a break with his predecessors. Bergoglio is Ratzingerian. In fact, I think he and Papa Ratzi are have their heads together on this. Bergoglio consciously gave Ratzinger the tiara in 2005 when (according to Il Stampa) he gave a short, emotional speech begging the Cardinals not to vote for him on, they say, the fifth ballot. This is just my hypothesis, but I think, on his part, Ratzi wanted Bergoglio to have a crack at being the next pope, and B16's abdication was the only timely way to do it.

Alfred Xuereb, B16's aide, the one who always accompanied him on his trips, was appointed on Day One as Jorge's private secretary. And he is not the only liaison between F1 and B16. They are not "co-popes," and yet...

Is this a conspiracy, or what?

Ecumenism to the East? Jorge enthusiastically went out of his way, early in his priesthood, to learn the celebrate the Byzantine Liturgy. He is under the patronage of Mary, Untier of Knots. He was Prelate for Eastern Catholics in Argentina, AND had Patriarch Bartholomew at his installation, -- forget about 'the first time in 1,000 years,' this was the first time in history. He's been doing metanias to his Brethren the Patriarchs for decades. That his favorite title is simply "Bishop of Rome"--- you think that doesn't make Orthodox eyes sparkle? I hear the Abbas are saying "Axios!"

Keep praying. Christ's chief shepherd on earth and his flock are still surrounded by wolves --- some of them, wolves in shepherd's clothing. The game is serious; the stakes couldn't be higher; but honest to God, Papa Francisco is playing a cool, cool hand.

53 posted on 03/29/2013 11:08:55 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ( Habemus Papam! Axios!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

That is the very verse from the Gospel that came to my mind when I saw Pope Francis’s big, “Bring it on!” smile. He doesn’t need to sweat the small stuff, because he believes in the Gospel and believes it’s really the “Good News” we all need.


54 posted on 03/29/2013 11:11:33 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
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To: Ann Archy

Yes Christ washed the feet of his apostles. Not women and not pagans. The Pope selected a female and a Muslim. Why?

The primary argument for an all male priesthood us that Christ only chose men as His apostles. Its the same reason men are chosen for the washing of the feet. The Pope has moved away from this tradition n a very public fashion. It is unsettling.


55 posted on 03/29/2013 11:22:48 AM PDT by pgkdan ( "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Nicely stated.


56 posted on 03/29/2013 11:33:27 AM PDT by pgkdan ( "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson)
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I thought the Pope had bad knees; that that was the reason he doesn't genuflect when he consecrates the Body and Blood of Christ?
57 posted on 03/29/2013 11:37:37 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: pgkdan; Ann Archy; don-o
Hello, and may grace be with you, pgkdan.

I disagree with you on the foot-washing issue because foot-washing is a sacramental, not a Sacrament, and not ontologially connected to the institution of he priesthood at all. In fact, it was only restored to the Holy Thursday liturgy within our lifetime (well, mine: I was born in 1951, and foot-washing became part of the Triduum--- and even then, only an optional part --- in 1955.)

So Pope Francis is not changing the Great Tradition of the Millennia; he's pastorally modifying a 20th century rubric. And doing it lawfully. Lawfully?? Well, answer me this: Who is the competent ecclesiastic authority concerning liturgical norms for the Diocese of Rome?

The people who wrote the GIRM are his advisors, and his ecclesiastical subjects. I am fairly suire any canonist would tell you the same.

Mlizzy, I loved the column by Jimmy Akin.

And pogkdan, you may find this interesting:

#53

I am not casting your concerns completely aside. I would be biting my nails up to the elbows if Pope Francis were a clown-mass liberal, a Liberation Theology Marxist, a liturgial ignoramus, a clerical self-aggrandizer or a dingbat. But he's none of that. He's a Ratzinger Protégé and one who is invested by the Holy Spirit with the authority of his office.

That authority doesn't make him impeccable. He's capable of gaffes, errors of judgment, and worse. But it does give him the jurisdiction at least, to modify the rubrics for a recently-instituted sacramental, within his own diocese.

This will work out. Pray and watch.

58 posted on 03/29/2013 11:54:20 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ( Habemus Papam.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I am not casting your concerns completely aside. I would be biting my nails up to the elbows if Pope Francis were a clown-mass liberal, a Liberation Theology Marxist, a liturgial ignoramus, a clerical self-aggrandizer or a dingbat. But he's none of that.
Did you see the YouTube of Pope Francis [then a cardinal] conducting a Mass with liturgical puppets? If so, what did you think about that?
59 posted on 03/29/2013 12:09:20 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: mlizzy

I didn’t see that. Puppets? (Wince.) I may bite a nail over this. Was this a one-off thing? You have a link?


60 posted on 03/29/2013 12:11:17 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ( Habemus Papam.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I didn’t see that. Puppets? (Wince.) I may bite a nail over this. Was this a one-off thing? You have a link?
The puppet that is supposed to be Jesus shows up at 7:30 (if you'd like to advance), and then shortly after that (at 8:08) some feel the cross shown (behind the altar) depicts a "smiling" Jesus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RwS9umpEkvs
61 posted on 03/29/2013 12:26:44 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: pgkdan; mlizzy
"The Pope selected a female and a Muslim. Why?"

Something about a shepherd who left his 99 sheep on the hillside, and went out to seek the one sheep that was lost?

62 posted on 03/29/2013 12:37:54 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ( Habemus Papam.)
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To: mlizzy
Saw the puppets. Ouch. This is OK for a summer camp after-the-s'mores skit, not for the Liturgy.

I still wonder: is this some one-off thing when Cardinal B was airlifted in and dropped into a Youth Liturgy that he didn't properly plan or control? Still a fault, but...

On the other hand, it would be an order of magnitude worse if this was the type of thing he intentionally and repeatedly enabled. Our well-beloved John Paul II did some of that, which was one of the weaknesses of his otherwise great pontificate. That, and a general lack of discipline over the errant, which he moved to remedy by putting Cardinal Ratzinger in the CDF.)

I pray --- and hope -- the puppet thing was an error never to be repeated. :o(

Considering the besetting deadly sins of FR, which are rash judgment, detraction and slander (so common these vices, that we practically embrace them as virtues, and I do not exculpate myself from this), I think we have to be particularly careful not to immediately set up a Sheep Judgment Court with our new Chief Shepherd handcuffed in the dock.

He's going after the lost sheep. Still the #1 job requirement.

63 posted on 03/29/2013 1:05:47 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ( Habemus Papam.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Thank you sincerely for sharing this perspective. You’ve made a great case that does bring me peace. I’ve been fighting those who were castigating Pope Francis from the outset and even received several nasty-grams from NewCatholic over at RorateCaeli in response to my efforts. I have friends I’ve been trying to talk back off the edge since the first round of negative attacks over at RorateCaeli on the day of PFI’s election. But this Holy Thursday liturgical abuse (in my opinion, that’s what it was) really had me flustered and it isn’t something I can defend against those I know who see it as proof of the earliest fears expressed on the trad blogs.

I can easily see the truth in everything you posted. And the trad blogs are acting out of fear and lack of Trust. But also out of the grim reality of wandering in a liturgical wasteland for 40 years and the very real possibility that progress in a return to reverent liturgy could be set back by a cavalier attitude that brushes away liturgical tradition as so many Phraisaical trappings that hinder us from our experience of the “real” Jesus.


64 posted on 03/29/2013 1:28:56 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
I think we all need to remind each other to stay in the "Pray and Watch" mode. I have a tendency to get off-kilter in my own way, and always have to examine my conscience over it.

Frankly, I don't go to RorateCaeli. They are a near occasion of sin to me.

Our little Schola Cantorum in my East Tennessee parish will be doing its first sung High Mass (with propers, sprinking with water and all that) on April 14. I am conscious that this is the first Vidi Aquam I will have sung in 50 years--- yes, 50 years almost to the day. I shake my head in amazed gratitude.

The Great Tradition is very, very precious to me, and I am morally sure Pope Francis won't do anything to take that away.

Let's pray for each other, and for our Papa.

65 posted on 03/29/2013 1:53:50 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Vidi aquam egredientem de templo, a latere dextro, alleluia!)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Can you or anyone point me to a link to the liturgical rules where it says only men’s feet are to be washed? Our parish is generally pretty good in regards to the liturgical rules and there is pretty much always a woman or two getting her feet washed on HOly Thursday. And I know this occurs throughout the Philadelphia Diocese and our bishops have all been pretty orthodox in regards to liturgical abuses.


66 posted on 03/29/2013 2:07:55 PM PDT by old and tired
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To: old and tired

Fr. Z has a discussion of the subject here:

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/of-holy-thursday-and-the-foot-washing-rite-problems-solutions/

Dr. Peters has an in depth discussion here:
http://www.canonlaw.info/a_footfight.htm


67 posted on 03/29/2013 2:19:03 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I'm not anti Fancis...by a long shot, but I'm still a little uncomfortable. I'd probably be able to make my point better if I wasn't so doped up from serious surgery a couple of days ago.

I will follow your advice and watch and pray.

68 posted on 03/29/2013 2:32:19 PM PDT by pgkdan ( "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Ramius

I don’t think that it is about looking pious—the interior, not the exterior, is what is most important. At the same time, having those who have some sort of care for the exterior things unrestrained by anything than their own whims is both distracting and ends up with little dictatorships of personality running rampant.


69 posted on 03/29/2013 2:59:08 PM PDT by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: NYer

This grandson of foot-washing Primitive Baptists recognizes the significance of this humbling gesture and approves of it, all other theological differences aside.


70 posted on 03/29/2013 3:04:22 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: pgkdan
Major surgery! I know what you mean. I developed a real appreciation for liquid morphine. Can't say it did much for my conversational skills, however.

May God bless you during this Sacred Triduum, and may we all be grateful, always, always.

71 posted on 03/29/2013 3:14:57 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Vidi aquam egredientem de templo, a latere dextro, alleluia!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“About the Sacraments and the Liturgy: look, he hit the ground running with Summorum Pontificum within two days of its publication.”

That is not true! At that point in time, Cardinal Bergoglio only, and finally, enforced “Ecclesia Dei” (issued by Pope John Paul II way back in 1988).

The Cardinal never followed Summorum Ponticum, as commanded by Pope Benedict!


72 posted on 03/29/2013 4:44:26 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Thank you, thank you, thank you - for that post. I’ve been up and down as well about our new Holy Father, and you have managed to clear my head a little. :-)


73 posted on 03/29/2013 6:22:29 PM PDT by PatriotGirl827 (O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee)
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To: ebb tide
According to Hermeneutic of Continuity (Link), there are Tridentine Masses all over Argentina. There's even a map showing regular Mass sites in accordance with Summorum Pontificum --- i.e., not SSPX.

All I know is what I see from Argentine websites like the ones cited here: Clarin.com and Una Voce Argentina.

74 posted on 03/29/2013 7:22:33 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Vidi aquam egredientem de templo, a latere dextro, alleluia!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Big difference between all of Argentina and former Cardinal Bergoglio’s archdiocese of Buenos Aries. Care to narrow down your search?

You won’t find one authorized TLM in that archdiocese.


75 posted on 03/29/2013 7:50:58 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: pgkdan
The primary argument for an all male priesthood us that Christ only chose men as His apostles. Its the same reason men are chosen for the washing of the feet. The Pope has moved away from this tradition n a very public fashion. It is unsettling.
I agree with you, in that this is causing arguing (division) between good Catholics, and I don't see any "peacemaker" in that. Also, IMO, it's odd for any man to kiss the feet of a woman he's not a significant other to. Jesus didn't do it as you say; we just watched Passion of the Christ and we re-checked. :)
76 posted on 03/29/2013 7:52:14 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“Michael Brendan Dougherty, a national correspondent for The American Conservative, alleged March 13 at Slate.com that Francis had blocked adoption of Summorum Pontificum (Pope Benedict XVI’s 2007 apostolic letter regarding use of 1962 form of the Latin Mass) in the Buenos Aires archdiocese and had not implemented the new missal translations.”

http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/election-raises-alarm-some-latin-mass-fans


77 posted on 03/29/2013 7:58:54 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I still wonder: is this some one-off thing when Cardinal B was airlifted in and dropped into a Youth Liturgy that he didn't properly plan or control? Still a fault, but...
Thanks for checking out the video and posting your thoughts. Maybe this was a one-time instance. Still and all, I was a little bummed out when I initially saw it because we need someone very powerful at the helm to right the wrongs that sent BXVI packing, however, I do realize the Church could right itself quite easily if only everyone prayed "mooorrrrrrrrrrrre" (as JPII stated).

Prayers for Pope Francis!
78 posted on 03/29/2013 8:02:01 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Do you even know the huge difference between Eclessia Dei and Summorum Pontificum?


79 posted on 03/29/2013 8:04:54 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: mlizzy; pgkdan
But women washed and kissed Jesus feet, and dried them with their hair. Really over the top behavior. Inappropriate on so many levels at once. Sinful women. "Don't you know what kind of a woman it is that's toucing you?" they said. And the Pharisees were, predictably, aghast.

Jesus defended the women, too, which ended up making the Pharisees despise Him. His behavior was too disturbing and unconventional to be a very good peacemaker, I suppose.

80 posted on 03/29/2013 8:34:00 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Vidi aquam egredientem de templo, a latere dextro, alleluia!)
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To: ebb tide
Very briefly, 'Ecclesia Dei' encouraged bishops to make 'a wide and generous application' of permission to use the 1962 Missal, if those requesting it accepted the validity of the Roman Missal (1970). This would be restricted to the times and places determined by the bishop.

'Summorum Pontificum' (2007) went a good deal further, stating that priests were no longer obliged to ask special permission of their bishop to offer the traditional liturgy. They could just do it without restriction.

81 posted on 03/29/2013 9:55:13 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Vidi aquam egredientem de templo, a latere dextro, alleluia!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
But women washed and kissed Jesus feet, and dried them with their hair. Really over the top behavior. Inappropriate on so many levels at once. Sinful women. "Don't you know what kind of a woman it is that's toucing you?" they said. And the Pharisees were, predictably, aghast.

Jesus defended the women, too, which ended up making the Pharisees despise Him. His behavior was too disturbing and unconventional to be a very good peacemaker, I suppose.
Jesus is Lord, so, no, that's not over-the-top behavior. And of course Jesus was a peacemaker. But Pope Francis is causing (by way of his actions) good Catholics (not heretics!) to argue amongst themselves because he went against Church rule. So while most can readily see peace in caring for the poor/downtrodden, there's not much peace seen in good Catholics sparring.
82 posted on 03/29/2013 10:15:59 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“Something about a shepherd who left his 99 sheep on the hillside, and went out to seek the one sheep that was lost?”

Very well put. At our church’s (Prot.) Maundy Thursday service they talked about the foot washing as Jesus showing how to be the servant, and to serve others. And to “love one another as I have loved you.”

My mind thought of the Pope washing these imprisoned youth’s feet and recalled the story of “who is my neighbor” and the “Good Samaritan”. I think it is clear that the Pope is going to be working hard so that ALL can hear the Good News.


83 posted on 03/29/2013 10:46:39 PM PDT by 21twelve ("We've got the guns, and we got the numbers" adapted and revised from Jim M.)
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To: mlizzy

So -— I love ya, mlizzy, you know that -— stop sparring already!


84 posted on 03/29/2013 11:35:02 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Vidi aquam egredientem de templo, a latere dextro, alleluia!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
[Jesus's] behavior was too disturbing and unconventional to be a very good peacemaker, I suppose.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

Or as I like to say, "You're the one with the problem, not me."

85 posted on 03/30/2013 7:43:34 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Correct. And Cardinal Bergoglio never obeyed the the latter, Summorum Pontificum, in his archdiocese. As a matter of fact, he punished priests who tried to exercise their rights.


86 posted on 03/30/2013 10:04:12 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Mrs. Don-o
*** This is also important: the diocesan Traditional Masses mentioned by dear Fr. Finigan as occurring in Argentina do not include any in the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires precisely because there are not any there, which is limited to the Federal Capital (Autonomous City of Buenos Aires, which, despite the name, is outside Buenos Aires Province, in a situation comparable to that of the District of Columbia and Maryland). The three mentioned by him are in Buenos Aires Province: Villa Celina (La Matanza Partido, Diocese of San Justo), Rawson (Chacabuco Partido, Diocese of Mercedes-Luján), and La Plata (Capital of the Province of Buenos Aires, Archdiocese of La Plata). The Archbishop's territory became a Summorum-free zone.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/03/how-summorum-pontificum-was-blocked-and.html

87 posted on 03/30/2013 10:31:30 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
You are correct, the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires is much, much smaller than I thought. Just 87 square miles, according to wiki.

It concerns me that the Archdiocese is, as you say, "A Summorum-free zone." :o( He "punished" the Latin Mass priests how?

88 posted on 03/30/2013 11:16:20 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Pray for me, and I shall for you and all your friends, that we may merrily meet in heaven. - T. More)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

89 posted on 04/04/2013 9:46:56 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("You can observe a lot just by watchin'." - Yogi Berra)
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