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Catholic Word of the Day: MARY'S SINLESSNESS, 04-01-13
CatholicReference.net ^ | 04-01-13 | Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary

Posted on 04/01/2013 8:51:02 AM PDT by Salvation

Featured Term (selected at random):

MARY'S SINLESSNESS

The belief that the Mother of Jesus was never stained with any sin, original or personal, and was also free from all unruly desires or concupiscence. By itself, deliverance from original sin does not mean liberation from the defects that are the result of sin. Mary, like Christ, was not exempt from those limitations which imply no moral imperfection. She lived a normal human life, had to labor, and was subject to pain and fatigue. But concupiscence implies moral blemish because it may lead to sin by exciting the passions to act against the law of God, even when, through lack of consent, a person does not formally do wrong.

Closely tied in with her integrity or absence of concupiscence was Mary's immunity from every personal sin during life. Her sinlessness may be deduced from the Gospel title "full of grace," since moral guilt is irreconcilable with fullness of God's friendship. St. Augustine held that every personal sin must be excluded from the Blessed Virgin "because of the honor of God."

All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; immaculateconception
This topic has been discussed many times on FR. For me, Fr. Hardon's definition could go a little farther.
1 posted on 04/01/2013 8:51:02 AM PDT by Salvation
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To: All

Bur then, I suppose the definition would have been a book! LOL!


2 posted on 04/01/2013 8:53:34 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: JRandomFreeper; Allegra; BlackVeil; Straight Vermonter; Cronos; SumProVita; AnAmericanMother; ...

Catholic Word of the Day Ping!

 

Indirect Suicide

Mary's Virginity

Altar Cards

Omission

Patristic Philosophy

Ignorantia Juris

Family Rosary

A Posteriori Demonstration

Great Relics

Latin

Entitative Habit

Memorare

Stylites

Means-End

Antependium

Custos

Death Wish

Calixtines

Mixed Contemplation

Unitive Way

Equality

Sanctuary

Jonah

Sacrament of Confession

Distribution of Communion

Fallacy

Hallow

Mary's Sinlessness

 

 

 

 

 

If you aren’t on this Catholic Word of the Day Ping list and would like to be, please send me a FReepmail.


3 posted on 04/01/2013 8:54:58 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Jesus got half his DNA from Mary. Jesus was without sin. Therefor Mary was without sin. That’s how it seems to me. Case closed, why all the fuss?


4 posted on 04/01/2013 9:05:39 AM PDT by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: Salvation

Protestants in general make too little of Mary, Catholics too much.

This falls in the Too Much category that exceeds God’s proclamation of blessed Mary.


5 posted on 04/01/2013 9:28:08 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: ex-snook

All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.


6 posted on 04/01/2013 10:18:12 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: Salvation; All

What is it about “the fall” that people don’t get. Mary was a normal young lady, who was a virgin. That does not make her “sinless” .. because .. when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the apple, ALL MANKIND FROM THEN TO THE DAY OF JESUS DEATH, WERE DOOMED TO BE DESIGNATED AS “IN SIN”.

Mary was chosen because she was a virgin, but there was actually another reason too .. God could read her heart, and He knew she loved Him. God already knew she would be willing to be the mother of Jesus; before she was asked .. because God created us with free will and the power to choose .. therefore, Mary had the same opportunity to say NO. Mary’s statement to the angel was, “Be it unto me according to Thy Will”.

The only way a person gets rid of “original sin” is to accept Jesus as their Savior. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. Mary did not have a way to become a “sinless” spirit person prior to the birth of the child she would carry.

It’s sad that people refuse to accept the truth.

When a person is saved, their spirit becomes renewed; or “sinless”. However, their flesh is still the same old stuff .. and Paul clearly taught us how to deal with our flesh. It’s a choice. Some people make better choices than others.


7 posted on 04/01/2013 10:21:36 AM PDT by CyberAnt ("America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth" (in spite of BO))
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To: CyberAnt

“Mary did not have a way to become a “sinless” spirit person prior to the birth of the child she would carry.”

You haven’t heard of the Immaculate Conception?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm


8 posted on 04/01/2013 10:47:20 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: HerrBlucher

You’re talking about two different things.

The Immaculate Conception deals with the impregnation of a woman who is still a virgin. To my knowledge, Mary is the only person who experienced that event.

Mary still did not have a “new spirit” .. even if she was a virgin. And .. she couldn’t have a new spirit, because it was not available until Jesus died.

She did receive a new spirit at the Day of Pentecost.


9 posted on 04/01/2013 10:53:19 AM PDT by CyberAnt ("America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth" (in spite of BO))
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To: CyberAnt

Did you even read the link? The Immaculate Conception is about Mary herself being conceived without original sin. That is how Mary was sinless when she gave birth to Christ.


10 posted on 04/01/2013 10:55:47 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: Salvation

THIS IS IMPORTANT- BECAUSE IF MARY EVER COMMITTED A SIN IT *WOULD*CHANGE*EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!*****

Why do religious idiots discuss this?


11 posted on 04/01/2013 10:56:59 AM PDT by Mr. K (There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and democrat talking points.)
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To: HerrBlucher

Well .. that was a physical imposibility. Mary’s parents would have been required to be “without sin” also .. and there was no provision for that before Jesus.

Sorry, no one was “sinless” after the “fall” of Adam and Eve. It was only changed after the death of Jesus.

You can refuse to believe the truth .. but maybe you need to search the scriptures for yourself .. instead of blindly believing something that was impossible to be true.

God didn’t require Mary to be “sinless” .. because God already knew that condition was impossible. She was a virgin and she loved God .. and those were the most important things.

You need to study the separation of the spirit and the flesh. Try reading an Amplified Bible - for starters. It is the most literal Greek translation of the Bible .. and it makes the Bible come alve.


12 posted on 04/01/2013 11:08:43 AM PDT by CyberAnt ("America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth" (in spite of BO))
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To: CyberAnt
instead of blindly believing something that was impossible to be true.

All things are possible with God. But you knew that.

"The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul. "...was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin..." "The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam — from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death. "...by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race."

The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

13 posted on 04/01/2013 11:18:32 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: Salvation

I know there’s nothing I can say that will convince you, but I have to say it nevertheless. Grace is “God’s unmerited favor”, or in other words “I don’t get what I deserve”. For Mary to need God’s grace, she had to be conceived with the original sin just like every ordinary human, and she had sinned during her life. It was because of God’s grace, of which she was full, that she could become the mother of our Savior. Somebody else in this board summarized perfectly by quoting Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. That’s a pretty simple word, ALL, isn’t it?


14 posted on 04/01/2013 11:20:06 AM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: CyberAnt; JimRed

Was Christ there with God the Father and the Holy Spirit at the very beginning of the Bible? (Read John 1)

Of course he was.

Thus, God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit at the beginning of time (remember that God has no timeline like we do) saw that Mary would be the Mother of Christ, born as an infant. Her original sin was then forgiven in advance, so that she could conceive through the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1)

Many seem to neglect this fact — that Mary was chosen in advance.

Have a blessed Eastertide.


15 posted on 04/01/2013 4:20:46 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: CyberAnt

Read about Joachim and Anne. They went to the temple and prayed and were overcome by the Holy Spirit, and thus Mary was conceived.

Please, please, do some more digging and don’t believe those pamplets you might have been inundated with.

Read about Joachim and Anne, the parents of Mary, please!


16 posted on 04/01/2013 4:26:40 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Hmmmmm ..?? after 3 years of Bible school .. I never heard of Joachim and Anne. How amazing is that .. maybe it’s because it’s not in the Bible.

You are free to believe what you choose to believe .. but please don’t be telling me I have to believe what you do.


17 posted on 04/01/2013 9:02:56 PM PDT by CyberAnt ("America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth" (in spite of BO))
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To: HerrBlucher

Well, I can see you are set on a belief I cannot share.

But remember this; God did not float around the world willy-nilly doing whatever He wanted. He too was constrained by the laws He set up.


18 posted on 04/01/2013 9:13:37 PM PDT by CyberAnt ("America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth" (in spite of BO))
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To: Salvation; fellowpatriot; MarineMom613; Ron C.; wolfman23601; ColdOne; navymom1; Pat4ever; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

19 posted on 04/01/2013 9:17:16 PM PDT by narses
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To: Salvation

You said, “Her original sin was then forgiven in advance,”

Well .. if that was true, then there would have been no need for Jesus to come to forgive our original sin, if God could just wave his magic wand and make the sin go away.

That’s illogical .. and God is not illogical. He told Adam and Eve .. if you eat of that tree of good and evil, you will surely die. Well, Adam and Eve didn’t die - not physically .. but they died spiritually.

God made the law of spiritual death .. he couldn’t flip a switch and change his mind to rid Mary of her spiritual condition. Therefore, Mary could not have received a new spirit before she had Jesus. And .. the Book of Acts clearly tells that she did accept Jesus as her Savior on the day of Pentecost - and thereby received her renewed spirit like all the others who were there in the upper room.

I’m sorry you can’t see this truth.


20 posted on 04/01/2013 9:32:41 PM PDT by CyberAnt ("America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth" (in spite of BO))
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To: CyberAnt
God made the law of spiritual death .. he couldn’t flip a switch and change his mind to rid Mary of her spiritual condition.

He didn't rid her of it, He prevented it and in so doing did not violate any of His own laws.

Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul. "...was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin..." "The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul.

21 posted on 04/01/2013 9:53:13 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: CyberAnt
For your education">{? Sts. Joachim and Anne, parents of the Virgin Mary, honored July 26 (Catholic Caucus)
The Discovery of the Saint Anne's Relics (Catholic Caucus)
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] Traditional Feast Of Saint Joachim, Patriarch
Saint Anne and Saint Joachim
St. Roch - The Great Advocate of the Sign of the Cross (And More on St. Joachim) (Catholic Caucus)
The Life Of Saint Ann [and St.Joachim]
22 posted on 04/01/2013 10:12:25 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: HerrBlucher

Well, I’m sorry I intruded on your indoctrination.

I’m sorry you are not willing to find the truth. It’s actually very sad.

Arguing about Mary only keeps people from finding a close relationship with Jesus. That breaks my heart.


23 posted on 04/02/2013 9:36:25 PM PDT by CyberAnt ("America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth" (in spite of BO))
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To: Salvation

Well, I’m sorry I intruded on your indoctrination.

I’m sorry you are not willing to find the truth. It’s actually very sad.

Arguing about Mary only keeps people from finding a close relationship with Jesus. That breaks my heart.


24 posted on 04/02/2013 9:37:06 PM PDT by CyberAnt ("America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth" (in spite of BO))
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To: CyberAnt

The truth is in the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and AOISTKUC church that Christ founded.


25 posted on 04/02/2013 9:46:42 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: CyberAnt
The angel Gabriel said "Hail Mary FULL OF GRACE." And that IS in the Bible.

I’m sorry you are not willing to find the truth. It’s actually very sad.

Back at ya. Have a happy Eastertide.

Cheers

26 posted on 04/02/2013 9:55:20 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: CyberAnt
you are not willing

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

27 posted on 04/02/2013 9:59:44 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: CyberAnt

Oops,
Hate those typos

The truth is in the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC church that Christ fouNDED.


28 posted on 04/02/2013 10:03:10 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: HerrBlucher
Did you even read the link? The Immaculate Conception is about Mary herself being conceived without original sin. That is how Mary was sinless when she gave birth to Christ.

But it's all a fable...A fallacy...

You guys don't seem to put much stock in the bible, the written words of God but you will jump off cliffs if your religion tells you to...There is nothing in the bible that gives your religion any authority...Your religion claims that authority for and by itself...

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

You see that??? While people can attempt to tempt God, God can not be tempted...It's not possible...

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Your religion wants you to believe that Jesus and his mother Mary took on the nature of sinless angels...He (they) did not...They could not...And why was that?

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Like unto his brethren...Not like a sinless angel, or a sinless mother, or even a sinless God...

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Do you see that??? Jesus was tempted...God can not be tempted...If Mary was sinless, Jesus could not have been tempted...

If the bible is true, and it is, Jesus was subject to lust...And his mother as well...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

If Jesus and his mother were not made of man's sinful nature, they could not have been tempted...That's why a human mother with a sinful nature was required for the birth of Jesus...Jesus could not be a successful High Priest...Jesus could not provide any relief for us had he not endured the temptation of different types of lust and pride...Jesus was not a man like God...Jesus was a man like us...

That's why God became a man...Because God is too Holy to be a man...Jesus and his mother were not...

29 posted on 04/03/2013 7:53:09 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Mr. K
THIS IS IMPORTANT- BECAUSE IF MARY EVER COMMITTED A SIN IT *WOULD*CHANGE*EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!*****

If Mary would have been born without sin, the incarnation would have been pointless...

30 posted on 04/03/2013 7:54:52 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: HerrBlucher

That entire post is a load of bunk...It was made up by people who want to make another Queen of Heaven to replace the one that we read about in the book of Jeremiah...There’s not a factual statement in either paragraph...


31 posted on 04/03/2013 7:59:44 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Salvation
Please, please, do some more digging and don’t believe those pamplets you might have been inundated with.

Those pamphlets you refer to are the Sacred words of God, the bible...

Read about Joachim and Anne, the parents of Mary, please!

And Joachim and Anne are not even mentioned in God's pamphlet...

32 posted on 04/03/2013 8:05:31 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
"You guys don't seem to put much stock in the bible, the written words of God but you will jump off cliffs if your religion tells you to..."

Catholicism is consistent in its embrace of the entire revealed Word; both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition which together form the Sacred Deposit of Faith. Unlike some who have taken it upon themselves to determine that the first 11 chapters of Genesis be taken absolutely literally and the references to the Real Presence in the Eucharist in the Gospels be taken symbolically, we have the continuity of a teaching authority stretching back to the the first Pentecost.

And yes, we have absolute faith. When we recite the Creeds, we begin with "Credo" which means much more than "I believe". Credo, from which we derive the words credit and credibility, means an absolute trust. Anyone can claim that they believe that parachutes work, even without knowing the physics behind the principles and materials used, but only those with an absolute trust will strap one on and jump from a perfectly good airplane. In reality very many who say they believe that parachutes work are too afraid to put their belief to the test. The same is true of Catholicism. When one absolutely trusts in God one puts full trust in the mysteries being true and makes that leap of faith.

Mysteries are not something that we can know nothing about, but they are things that we will never know everything about. That acceptance of our shortcomings is our faith. I would suggest that rather than trying to establish that your love of God is greater than Catholics' love of God by pointing out what you believe to be our errors you demonstrate your love is greater by loving more greatly. The presence or absence of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit will be the determinate factor. The second greatest commandment is important too.

Peace be with you

33 posted on 04/03/2013 8:25:27 AM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Iscool
That entire post is a load of bunk...It was made up by people who want to make another Queen of Heaven to replace the one that we read about in the book of Jeremiah...There’s not a factual statement in either paragraph...

Tell me, when the Angel Gabriel said "Hail Mary full of grace" was he referring to her style of walking; tennis playing; dancing? Or was he referring to the condition of her soul i.e without sin?

34 posted on 04/03/2013 9:45:34 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: Iscool
If Jesus and his mother were not made of man's sinful nature, they could not have been tempted

Adam and Eve were tempted, and they were not made of Man's sinful nature. In fact, their giving in to temptation in the first place was the cause of Man's sinful nature. Its called Free Will. It is very hard to believe that you don't even understand the Fall and the concept of original sin, but there it is.

35 posted on 04/03/2013 10:40:24 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: HerrBlucher
Tell me, when the Angel Gabriel said "Hail Mary full of grace" was he referring to her style of walking; tennis playing; dancing? Or was he referring to the condition of her soul i.e without sin?

Grace is not something one owns...Grace has nothing to do with sin...Grace is unmerited favor from God...

All humans have been given the grace of God...

And BTW, the real scripture does not say 'full of grace'...It says that Mary found favor with God...No, Mary was not sinless...

36 posted on 04/03/2013 4:47:47 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: HerrBlucher
Adam and Eve were tempted, and they were not made of Man's sinful nature. In fact, their giving in to temptation in the first place was the cause of Man's sinful nature.

So God punished mankind and gave them a sinful nature after Adam??? You got it a little backwards there bro...They had to have been created with a potentially sinful nature or like you claim of Mary, they couldn't have committed sin...Adam was given free will from the get-go...To disobey God, and commit sin...And he did...

37 posted on 04/03/2013 4:56:45 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: HerrBlucher

“grace” is not salvation .. sorry.

Jesus said, “My grace is sufficient for you” .. and by that He meant that with your salvation, you would be able to do all that God had called you to do.

In the Greek, the word “Salvation” means: safety, soundness, preservation, healing, deliverance and prosperity.

If Mary received “grace” in order to carry and birth a child, I don’t have any issue with that.


38 posted on 04/03/2013 4:58:48 PM PDT by CyberAnt ("America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth" (in spite of BO))
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To: Religion Moderator

I’ve been “personal” on this website for years.

She “was not willing” to even discuss the subject she was talking about .. instead, she just spewed her doctrine at me.

But .. you must be Catholic too - or otherwise you would not have said anything to me.

Don’t worry .. I won’t have any more conversations with her.


39 posted on 04/03/2013 5:02:53 PM PDT by CyberAnt ("America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth" (in spite of BO))
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To: HerrBlucher
Adam and Eve were tempted, and they were not made of Man's sinful nature. In fact, their giving in to temptation in the first place was the cause of Man's sinful nature.

So God punished mankind and gave them a sinful nature after Adam??? You got it a little backwards there bro...They had to have been created with a potentially sinful nature or like you claim of Mary, they couldn't have committed sin...Adam was given free will from the get-go...To disobey God, and commit sin...And he did...

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

God did not punish us with a sinful nature...God grieved because we all, including the first one had it...

It is very hard to believe that you don't even understand the Fall and the concept of original sin, but there it is.

Naw, I'm sure that you actually don't believe that I don't fall for the line(s) that your religion falsly dangles in front of you guys and calls it truth...A little bible will straighten out any Catholic education...

40 posted on 04/03/2013 5:03:27 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
Grace is not something one owns...Grace has nothing to do with sin...Grace is unmerited favor from God...

All humans have been given the grace of God...

And BTW, the real scripture does not say 'full of grace'...It says that Mary found favor with God...No, Mary was not sinless...

This should clear things up for you.

Luke 1:28 ("Full of Grace")

"The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Plummer).

(Robertson, II, 13)

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, "grace"). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated "grace" 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace" and that the literal meaning was "endued with grace" (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as "to endue with Divine favour or grace" (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to "divine favor, that is, God’s grace" (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary's personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .

(Kittel, 1304-1305)

Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):

Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10)

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It's a "zero-sum game": the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7,9; 3:6,9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's grace.

2. To be "full of" God's grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture."

41 posted on 04/03/2013 5:52:04 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: Iscool
They had to have been created with a potentially sinful nature or like you claim of Mary, they couldn't have committed sin...Adam was given free will from the get-go...To disobey God, and commit sin...And he did...

Of course Adam and Eve had a potentially sinful nature. They HAD to or Free Will would not mean anything. And nobody has said that Mary COULD not sin, the claim is she was free of original sin and then DID NOT sin, unlike Eve who obviously had no original sin, but most certainly did sin afterwards. Mary is seen as the new Eve, except Mary obeyed God and Eve did not.

42 posted on 04/03/2013 6:00:35 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: HerrBlucher
Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):

Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10)

That's quite a convoluted understanding of grace and sin...

While we are saved because of the grace of God we are not saved by grace, without faith...Grace gives us the ability...Faith does the deal...

Everyone on the planet has been given grace...Only those with faith will be able to take advantage of that grace...

Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

That does NOT mean we will not sin...It means we will not be under the dominion (penalty) of the sin we commit...

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

Nope...John the baptist was full of grace...He was also filled with the Holy Spirit...Mary was not filled with the Holy Spirit...Mary was in the flesh, under the law until she later became saved, by faith...Mary was one time 'overcome' by the Holy Spirit...

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

That is the power given to all Christians even with a measured amount of grace...

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's grace.

Thru faith...And faith only...

2. To be "full of" God's grace, then, is to be saved.

Nope...One has nothing to do with the other...Faith is the requirement for salvation...And Mary was not full of grace...Mary was favored...

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

Millions of people have God's grace and are going to end up in hell...And many have already...

5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

Absolutely not...

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture."

Not even close...

43 posted on 04/04/2013 6:09:15 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: HerrBlucher
Of course Adam and Eve had a potentially sinful nature. They HAD to or Free Will would not mean anything. And nobody has said that Mary COULD not sin, the claim is she was free of original sin and then DID NOT sin, unlike Eve who obviously had no original sin, but most certainly did sin afterwards. Mary is seen as the new Eve, except Mary obeyed God and Eve did not.

And that's all it is, is a story...

44 posted on 04/04/2013 6:12:38 AM PDT by Iscool
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