Skip to comments.Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? (Baptism of DEAD Top Lds mission: Vanity)
Posted on 04/04/2013 6:51:33 PM PDT by Colofornian
On this day April 4, 1981 (32 years ago) Mormon church president-prophet Spencer W. Kimball made an announcement about what the three-fold MISSION was of the Mormon church.
In other words, these three things were not minor fair, and the first two were not surprising for any given church (proclaim the gospel, and perfect the saints).
What was the third part?
Per Kimball, it was to redeem the dead. (Source: On This Day in the Church: An Illustrated Almanac of the Latter-day Saints, Eagle Gate Publishing, Salt Lake City, 2000, p. 65)
A previous string of Mormon prophets John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith -- certainly heavily inculcated the idea among Mormons that saviors of the dead were plural...In other words, they werent talking about Jesus Christ as being THE Savior of the dead!
And, unlike the Bible, which places a definitive THE before Jesus Christ as THE Savior (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14), Mormon prophets have long and consistently preached that the Mormon churches produces saviors plural! (Lds often cite Obadiah 21, which the KJV renders as "saviors"; the NIV makes it clear that these "deliverers" are there to govern the mountains of Esau; not become proxy saviors taking Jesus' role as Savior of the World!)
Lds prophet John Taylor: " ...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Lds "prophet" John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163)
Taylor: "We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to be saviors for them by being baptized for them in the flesh, that they may live according to God in the Spirit (LDS "prophet" John Taylor, March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)
Lds prophet Wilford Woodruff: YOU will be recognized as Saviors upon Mount Zion (Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, p. 189, 2004)
Woodruff: WE become saviors on Mount Zion as we build temples and receive saving ordinances on behalf of the dead. (Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, p. 187)
Lds prophet Joseph Fielding Smith: ... mortals have to be saviors on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (LDS "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 325)
Lds prophet Joseph F. Smith: Teach your children and let yourselves be taught the fact that it is necessary for you to become saviors upon Mount Zion (Joseph F. Smith, Teachings of Presidents: Joseph F. Smith, p. 412, 1998)
Lds prophet Joseph F. Smith: WE have a certain work to do in order to liberate they are unprepared for eternal life: we have to open the door for them, by performing ordinances which they cannot perform for themselves, and which are essential to their release from the prison-house, (Joseph F. Smith, Ibid, p. 410)
The Christian counterclaim is that Jesus Christ has already done that, minus any ritual mumbo-jumbo performed in a man-made temple. Jesus said His personal temple one that would zero in on death and the only real temple worth anything regarding salvation was the temple of His body (John 2:19-21). That body was laid on the cross. He liberated us and opened the door; we are free to walk out of the prison-house of our sin nature, bondage to this world, bondage to Satan, bondage to a fear of death, etc!
Lds prophet Joseph F. Smith emphasized that not only do Lds need to perform every law and every requirement of the (Mormon) gospel for themselves, but for the dead as well:
No man can enter into the Kingdom of God but by the door and through the means that Jesus Christ has offered to the children of men. Not a soul that has ever lived and died from off the face of this earth shall escape a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. If they receive it and obey it, the ordinances of the gospel will be performed for and in their behalf, by their kindred, or their posterity in some generation of time after them, so that every law and every requirement of the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be carried out, and the promises and requirements fulfilled for the salvation of the living and also for the salvation of the dead. (Teachings of Presidents: Joseph F. Smith, p. 307, 1998; original source Latter-day Saints Follow Teachings of the Savior, Scrap Book of Mormon Literature, 2 vols. 2:561-562).
In other words, Jesus proxy blood didnt fulfill the requirements and debt-payments and falling short of fulfilling the law. Mormon proxy sweat labor has to fulfill that. And for how many of the dead of history?
The work of saving the dead has practically been reserved for the dispensation of the fullness of times, when the Lord shall restore all things. It is, therefore, the duty of the Latter-day Saints to see that it is accomplished. WE cannot do it all at once, but will have the 1,000 years of the millennium to do it in. In that time the work must be done in behalf of the dead of the previous 6,000 years, for all who need it. (Lds prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:166)
In before the mormonic defenders who categorize disagreement as hate... probably liberals.
In before those who are intolerant of those they accuse of being intolerant...
Don’t forget: Mormons are to Christians...what Christians are to Jews....
A proxy baptism was performed on Anne Frank on February 18, 2012, according to Mormon church records.
The truth is, every person is responsible for his/her own salvation, by grace, through faith in the finished job of Jesus on the Cross!
Nope. You get one chance. Joseph Smith was just a man who is deader than a doornail now and his soul is awaiting resurrection and judgement.
Well, if you were Baptist-Mormons -- and insisted upon immersion -- then you could dig up the corpse...and...
(But I don't know of very many "Baptist-Mormons")
(Ya know...even the Book of Mormon agrees with this statement of yours in several places...but, where Book of Mormon teachings conflicted with Joey Smith, the Mormons chose Joey!)
(Y'all the remember the Jews & Noachides who have come thru various FR Lds threads defending Mormonism...and yet nary say a word about Mormons "baptizing" Anne Frank & other Holocaust victims)...
Oh, yeah, there's Blasater 1960 in post #5 right on time with a prime-time example of what I'm talkin' 'bout!
I seem to remember that several years ago, there was a confrontation between Mormons and Jews regarding this posthumous baptizing of dead people, particularly those who were Jews. In fact, it may have been the baptism of Anne Frank which prompted this meeting. I also seem to remember that the Mormon Church agreed to tell their members not to submit the names of deceased Jews to their temple for “sealing” in the LDS Church. Does anyone else remember this?
There is only ONE Savior and He was NOT a mormon.
That makes zero sense in the reasoned universe
“Oh, yeah, there’s Blasater 1960 in post #5 right on time with a prime-time example of what I’m talkin’ ‘bout!”
That is a prime example? lol A) I indicted you both and defended nothing. B) What makes you think I didn’t say anything about Baptizing Jews?
Yup. I believe this formally kicked off in 1995.
I also seem to remember that the Mormon Church agreed to tell their members not to submit the names of deceased Jews to their temple for sealing in the LDS Church. Does anyone else remember this?
Yup. But some of the MOrmon grassroots didn't listen very well; and the Mormon church had little "policing" authority put in place on this.
Because you are a "no show" on Google on this...
Put in any combo of your name with various words & phrases involving baptize, baptizing, Jews, Holocaust, etc.
Nothing involving you pops up.
Uh yeah. I am sure I have commented before.
And you missed this pro mormon post of mine.
Since I’m not a Mormon...do I still get my own planet?
I’d like some in the temperate to tropical...beaches and nice lagoons.
Mark W. Hofmann, left, and LDS Church leaders N. Eldon Tanner, Spencer W. Kimball, Marion G. Romney, Boyd K. Packer and Gordon B. Hinckley examine the Anthon transcript April 22, 1980.
As you know, both Mr. Kimball (cited as an authority in your article) and Mr. Hinckley were named as presidents, prophets, seers and revelators to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
ALL: IN case you don't know who Mark W. Hofmann, he's the Mormon forger mad bomber-murderer whose forgeries fooled these supposed "seers" of the Mormon church! Boyd Packer is STILL an Lds "apostle".
Ask the Apostle Paul who said: “what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” 1 Corinthians 15:29.
Here’s what I don’t understand: Why don’t you just leave us Mormons alone? If you don’t believe it, that’s fine with us.
You suck at searching.
Sorry...but ya gotta pay 10% plus of your lifetime income; jump thru the hoops of a Mormon bishop to pay the tune of temple access (a temple recommend card). Oh, and you HAVE to be married.
Oh, and speaking of spouses, since the Mormons shut down its OPEN polygamy factory about a couple generations in, you can still climb aboard the Mormon eternal polygamy train. But ya gotta marry them one at a time, waiting for the previous one to die.
I know that can take some time getting the # up to the Muslim virgin number for Islamic terrorist martyrs, but be patient.
Baptism by proxy.
You then linked to a comment where you wrote: "Oh yeah, Team Obama (Obama,DNC,MSM)Media who refused to cover Jeremiah Wright, WILL cover all manner of Mormon weirdness, 24/7 once Bishop Rome-ny gets the nod. Rome-nys approval will be in the 30s by October."
'Twas a shot @ the MSM & how it portrays Mormonism...hardly even a "softball" shot.
We're left to conclude: Either (a) You suck at researching your own posts; or (b) I was right!
(Where's your comments on baptisms of the Jewish dead, again?)
You are right. We Mormons have been instructed to only baptize our own dead relatives. We are not to baptize any others.
The way this works, by the way, is very interesting, and spiritual for us. When a living person wishes to be baptized, they are baptized by full immersion “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost”. It’s beautiful. Baptizing for the dead is where someone stands in proxy for the dead person and is baptized “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost”. It’s very sacred and beautiful.
It’s OK if you don’t believe; but we do with all our hearts and wish to be left alone to practice our faith and give you the same opportunity. Thanks.
Every few years this comes up. Jews object, Mormons promise to quit doing it, things calm down for a few years and then the Mormons are back at it, baptizing dead Jews, who according to Mormons, are really gentiles, on and on and on.
“There is only ONE Savior and He was NOT a mormon.”
Jesus belongs to us all - we are His. He is the Head of the Church. John 3:16. He suffered and died for Mormons, too.
The LDS Church has apologized for offending Jews and has instructed that this practice be stopped. Those Mormons who did baptize dead Jews were not intending to do anything wrong. They did these baptisms out of love. They did not mean to do harm. Please forgive.
“and then the Mormons are back at it,”
You are wrong about that. The leadership of our Church has made it abundantly clear that the practice is abolished - in no uncertain terms.
(All as perhaps a MILLION Mormon researchers scan every past record imaginable about OUR "gone on beyond" relatives; scan every tombstone of OUR "gone on beyond" relatives; ... and District 13 preaches leaving living Mormons alone...when they can't leave the dead alone?)
The leaders of the LDS faith are good men and women striving to be good examples and do the right things. The Church is perfect but the people are not.
You mean the Salamander Letter was a forgery? The letter that proclaimed that Joseph Smith received his First Vision from an elf in the form of a white (as in white magic) salamander? The same letter that was pronounced genuine by the above same leaders? That letter?
Or is it one of the other 47 documents that the LDS Church purchased from Hofmann and accepted as genuine? Or was it all of the above?
You need to be more specific!
This would be like a Christian saying, "Yes the Gospel of Jesus Christ saves. Jews, too. But since the Gospel of Jesus Christ offends Jews, we will no longer share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with them. We share the Gospel out of love, not harm. Please forgive us for sharing the Gospel with Jews."
(Can you get more inconsistent than thatm District?)
You are wrong about that. The leadership of our Church has made it abundantly clear that the practice is abolished - in no uncertain terms. [Mormon District 13 to Graybeard58]
Wait a minute, District. If "the leadership of our [Mormon] church...made it abundantly clear" (in 1995?) "that the practice" of necro-baptizing Jews "is abolished"...then please explain this February 2012 headline from the AP/Washington Post:
“Ask the Apostle Paul who said: what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:29.”
Notice it says “they,” not “us”. Just north of Corinth the pagans practiced proxy baptisms for the dead. It is not a Christian practice.
“Heres what I dont understand: Why dont you just leave us Mormons alone? “
Okay, but please stop all missionary activity first,stop twisting the scriptures, stop spreading your blasphemous and silly dogmas invented by a polygamist con-man with 30 wives, 12 of whom were still married to other men, and some as young as 14 years old.
According to LDS doctrine, you are wrong.
In his February 26, 1980 speech at BYU titled Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet, LDS President Ezra Taft Benson maintained the Mormon Church President spoke with inerrant authority on "any matter, temporal or spiritual," was "not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time," and "would never lead the Church astray".
As far as I know, that position has never been altered, revoked or rescinded.
“Jesus belongs to us all - we are His. He is the Head of the Church. John 3:16. He suffered and died for Mormons, too.”
Yes, He did die for Mormons too. You should deconvert and become a Christian, so you don’t die a Mormon trusting in your religion to give you godhood.
Hell and the penalties of sin are very real, even though the LDS denies what the scripture teaches on the subject.
Okay, but please stop all missionary activity first... [Greetings_Puny_Humans_]
(Yeah, just a wee bit of irony there, eh, GPH? Here District suggests that some posters "just leave us Mormons alone" -- all as they are about to increase by 30% the # of missionaries they send out to NOT leave our doors & doorbells alone over these next years)
And these were simply a "resurrection" of the same old, same old "discernment" problem @ the head of the Mormon church. ALL: Google/Yahoo or some other search engine "The Kinderhook Plates" to see what I mean.
Or the facsimile of the funeral doc that Joseph Smith "translated" as the so-called "Book of Abraham."
You do realize, doncha, District, that Joseph Smith claims that Jesus -- as Head of the Church -- jettisoned "Christians" in their entirety until Smith & his ensuing "seers" came along.
So that means that ALL of our spiritual forefathers since around a few generations past Christ's death, per Joseph Smith, that is, were/are ALL "apostate."
If you go here, you'll see that the authors of the 7-volume Lds "History of the Church" were Joseph Smith himself -- and B.H. Roberts, an Lds "Seventy": History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF
On pp. 408-409 of Vol. 6, we find Smith claiming:
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days
of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."
This is hardly a "we are His" Kum ba yah kind of claim by Smith, wouldn't you agree?
It's been about 2-3 years since I've highlighted this false "kum ba yah" front some Mormons -- and the Mormon church itself -- highlights at times.
So I elected to go back & pull out a few choice comments I made from previous FR threads from 2-3 years back:
Comment #1: Are you claiming that Mormons are "fellow Christians?" Or am I misreading this comment of yours? Did you know that the official doctrine of the Mormon church -- found in Doctrine & Covenants 1:30 -- is that the Mormon church is the "ONLY true and living church on the face of the earth"???
Did you know that official Mormon doctrine is that all Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox Christian churches are all "apostate?" (How is that any different than Muslims who label Christians as "infidels?")
Mormons love the brand name "Christian" -- so on the surface it at times sound like they want a "kum ba yah" let's-all-hug moment...but officially in their doctrines & "scriptures" label historic Christian churches and their bodies and creeds in the worst ways.
...Why is it that the Mormon church can send 52,000 missionaries out accusing us of being apostates, and they can put all of this slander out 24/7 online, by their publishing houses, etc...and yet, where are YOUR accusations of the Mormon church that it is attempting to "divide and destroy" the conservative movement? Joseph Smith practiced scorched earth religio-politics and tried to hold a mass funeral for Christianity. He tried to say we were dead & buried. So Smith, and then the next generation, who enshrined his words as "scripture" (1870s) -- were they not guilty of attempting to "divide and destroy" the 19th century conservative movement? And what about contemporary Mormons who've jumped on the Smith bandwagon & likewise conclude we are corrupt and part of a false apostate church? Are they in your Kum-ba-yah camp?
Tell ya what, if we sing from the Mormon hymnal with Glenn Beck leading your new church choir, then the lyrical lines might be,
"Kum ba yah, My Mormon lord, all the Christian sects are apostates...
"Kum ba yah, My Mormon lord, all their creeds are an abomination...
"Kum ba yah, My Mormon lord, all their professors are corrupt.
"Oh, Mormon lord, Kum ba yah."
not even close..unless of course you are suggesting that Joseph Smith is equal to Jesus of Nazareth (the risen Savior)
We Mormons have been instructed to only baptize our own dead relatives. We are not to baptize any others.
and yet you Mormons DO dead dunk everyone elses dead relatives...
especially the ones who died as Christians and Jews...
and how many times is it that you have dead dunked your own jesus ???
but we do with all our hearts and wish to be left alone to practice our faith and give you the same opportunity.
Kid I do hope you have your tongue in your cheek...
as you wrote thast you were aware that somewhere in the world at that same time some of the 50,000 Mormon dorr-to-door salesmen were not leaving others alone nor the oppotunity...
Indeed Mormons were bothering others and pushing that pagan false rteligion of Mormonism on people at their own doords...
Kid thats not giving others any opportunity to be left alone to practice their faith....
If you Mormons truly wanted us to not object to your interferring with our beliefs you would stay away from our doors...