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The Creed of Practical Mormon Atheism: MORMON ATHEISM IS NOT AN OXYMORON
Mormon Coffee (blog.mrm.org) ^ | March 14, 2013 | Aaron Shafovaloff

Posted on 04/05/2013 4:55:55 AM PDT by Colofornian

The grand council of atheist Mormon bishops have met and codified the Creed of Practical Mormon Atheism, a list of things that both atheists and Mormons can largely affirm together:

Some things are true are not very useful.

Some things that are not true are very useful.

On a serious note, this is why I ask Mormons questions like,

The religion of Mormonism is hallowing out. The numbers increase on the exterior (although even that is in jeopardy), but on the interior there is a mass-apostasy going on, intellectually and mentally speaking. People are leaving the LDS Church without leaving the LDS Church.

Without asking probing questions, I can’t assume any Mormon I talk to even believes in the existence of God or the resurrection of Jesus. Even the Mormons that aren’t closet-atheists are largely latent atheists (or agnostics) without knowing it. Since evangelism, I take it, is partly to engage the conscience and the depth of one’s heart, I want to reach them where they are really at, even if they don’t quite understand what is going on.

Are you reading this blog to better understand how to evangelize your LDS neighbors? Are you feeling inadequate because you don’t know much about Mormonism? How about this for a start: Step through ten reasons to believe in the resurrection of Jesus, ten reasons to trust the Bible, and even ten reasons to believe in the existence of God. Even if a Mormon doesn’t think they “need” to hear it.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: antichristian; creeds; inman; lds; mormonatheism; mormonism
From the blog:

Some things are true are not very useful.

Some things that are not true are very useful.

This graphic includes two quotes: The first is from Lds "apostle" Boyd Packer, whose picture is in the original blog next to this quote. The second is from Lds dissenter John Dehlin, whose picture is also in the original blog next to the second quote.

The original context for these quotes is that Packer at one point was trying to head off Lds historians from staying away from Lds history that wasn't "faith-promoting." Dehlin's quote is much more recent; Dehlin is trying to help Mormons who realize the untruthfulness of Mormonism to stay Mormon, anyway.

Hence, Shafovaloff is taking a tongue-and-cheek approach to many of his initial list of bullet points. For example, some Dehlinesque type of comments ultimately boil down to:

You can see some of these Dehlin type comments at any number of his posted PowerPoint presentations:
* 2013: 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church
* 2009: How to Stay in the Lds Church After a Major Trial of Faith (Oct. 12, 2009)
* 2008: Why People Leave the LDS Church, and what family/friends/community can do about it

From the blog:


1 posted on 04/05/2013 4:55:55 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
From the blog:

So...exactly what is Shafovaloff's point here?

Well, he is referencing the Lds beliefs that necessitate arising from Joseph Smith's "revelation" found in Lds "scripture" -- Doctrine & Covenants 93.

From a previous Lds "prophet": - "Thus the Lord has given us the information regarding his creations, and how he has made many earths, for there never was a beginning, never was a time when man did not exist somewhere in the universe, and when the time came for this earth to be peopled the Lord, our God, transplanted upon it from some other earth, the life which is found here." Improvement Era, Vol 23:389-393; Joseph Fielding Smith; "The Origin and Destiny of Man"; 1919

This thinking, too, is based upon Lds "scripture" Doctrine and Covenants 93:29,33...which says that spirits and intelligences are as eternal as God is: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal... (LDS "scripture" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33)

Per the Mormon narrative, you started off as "goo" somewhere...a "spirit" (D&C 93:29,33)...You are just as "eternal" (as in eternal past) as God & Jesus...you haven't "lived" any less than them (past-wise)
Then you were spirit-born to a man who became God & one of his goddess wives...near "Kolob"...wherever that is...
Oh, and Lucifer -- Satan -- was your "elder spirit bro"
Then you were sent here to inhabit a body...

If you don't become a temple Mormon so you can eternally progress to become a future god like Mitt Romney (run your world; create your own spirit kids; receive worship & prayer & glory from them as a "god")...

Then you can be Necro-baptized by proxy in a spirit world where you & everybody goes (even the best Mormons go there, too, for a while)

And Lds "prophet" Woodruff said the signers of the Declaration of Independence came to him (their spirits) @ the St. George, Utah temple in the 1870s and begged him to necro-baptize them all!

And if the above wasn't enough, if you look under the "Spirit" entry in LDS church-published Bible Dictionary, 1979 (p. 776) -- in back of Holy Bible, you'll find this entry:

"That is, ALL forms of living things--man, beast and vegetation--existed as individual spirits, before any form of life existed upon the earth. The spirit is in the likeness of the physical body, as demonstrated in Gen. 2:5; 1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15-16; D&C 77:2; 129; Moses 3:4-7. Furthermore, all spirit is matter,but is more refined and pure than mortal element (D&C 131:7)."

So. If you take the infinite regression teaching of the Mormon church -- infinitely regressing, we ALL have supposedly "existed" in some form -- [again, see @ Doctrine & Covenant 93:29,33 above...this teaches WE are as eternal (past) as God/Jesus, etc. -- & that spirits & intelligences & elements ALWAYS existed!!!
...and couple it with this above eternal regression teaching...that vegetation & beasts were co-existent alongside us as fellow "spirits" once upon a time...and that we all have ALWAYS existed...

Sometimes esoteric macabre teachings that you think are so FAR out there...are actually mainstream Mormonism!

2 posted on 04/05/2013 5:00:00 AM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: Colofornian

oxymormon


3 posted on 04/05/2013 5:02:06 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: Colofornian

I didn’t think it possible, but you have reached a new low.

Starting a thread based on comments from a blog site? LOL


4 posted on 04/05/2013 5:15:11 AM PDT by panaxanax (They can have my guns when I run out of ammo.)
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To: panaxanax

The religious tolerance that I hear from some freepers is mind boggling.


5 posted on 04/05/2013 5:56:06 AM PDT by Okieshooter
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To: Okieshooter

Christians weren’t the ones who started this fight by stumbling out of the woods and claiming they had seen God, Jesus and angels and proclaimed all churches were wrong and he was right and if you didn’t believe his new book then he would stand in the doorway to Heaven and keep the non Mormons out.

Smith threw down the gauntlet, Christians picked it up, and the Mormons have been crying “FOUL” ever since because the always get their butts whipped ever time their own words are used against them.


6 posted on 04/05/2013 6:43:46 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (The murals in OKC are destroyed.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

And the point of continuing the fight is? I thought Christains were supposed to turn the other cheek.


7 posted on 04/05/2013 6:58:56 AM PDT by Okieshooter
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To: Colofornian
Even if you don’t believe in God, you should still stay on the membership rolls and consider yourself a Mormon.

So these atheists are encouraging others to be hypocrites?

While I believe the Mormon doctrine to be false, they do believe in a God. They are not atheists.

8 posted on 04/05/2013 7:21:53 AM PDT by MEGoody (You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Okieshooter

****I thought Christians were supposed to turn the other cheek.****

Only when someone slaps you up the side of the head.

In matters of doctrine the CHRISTIAN is expected to DEFEND THE FAITH, not with a physical confrontation but with solid refutation of false doctrine.

2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.


9 posted on 04/05/2013 7:32:58 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (The murals in OKC are destroyed.)
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To: Okieshooter
And the point of continuing the fight is?

100,000 mormon missionaries going around the world proclaiming to Christians that their faith is bogus and the only way to salvation is through arcane rituals in a mormon temple. THAT is the point.

10 posted on 04/05/2013 7:42:13 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Joseph Smith died in a gun battle. This is NOT a martyr's death!)
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To: panaxanax

(a) You make this sound like it’s not been done — either by me or anybody else on FR;
(b) Bloggers are simply the new columnists from the ancient dinosaur era
(c) I guess your anti-blog mentality shows which era was your “alma mater”


11 posted on 04/05/2013 8:37:48 AM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: Okieshooter; Ruy Dias de Bivar; greyfoxx39
Christians weren’t the ones who started this fight by stumbling out of the woods and claiming they had seen God, Jesus and angels and proclaimed all churches were wrong and he was right and if you didn’t believe his new book then he would stand in the doorway to Heaven and keep the non Mormons out. Smith threw down the gauntlet, Christians picked it up, and the Mormons have been crying “FOUL” ever since because the always get their butts whipped ever time their own words are used against them. [ruy dias de bivar, post #6]

And the point of continuing the fight is? I thought Christains were supposed to turn the other cheek. [okieshooter, post #7]

(I guess Jesus' half-bro, Jude, never got Okieshooter's "memo": I felt compelled to write and urge you to U>CONTEND for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. Jude 3) ... Nor the Holy Spirit who inspired this Scripture, eh Okieshooter?

12 posted on 04/05/2013 8:42:34 AM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: Colofornian

In the interest of full disclosure am not either a Mormon, a Christian or a Atheist, although that might depend on you definition of atheist. But that is a whole different issue.

I strongly believe in the right to believe what you want, but one of the issues I have with revealed religions is they seem to emphasize our differences rather than how we are alike. If you want to fight over the differences in you beliefs, have at it.


13 posted on 04/05/2013 9:01:26 AM PDT by Okieshooter
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To: Okieshooter
I strongly believe in the right to believe what you want, but one of the issues I have with revealed religions is they seem to emphasize our differences rather than how we are alike.

(Yeah, isn't that just "terrible" that Christians don't point out what they have "in common" with Satanism, with Wicca witchcraft, with Scientology, etc.)

But, of course, I guess all that -- all which Satanists, witches, Scientologists from "another planet" believe -- comes under your open-ended umbrella of "believing [whatever] you want," which, btw, doesn't stop at "religions."

If you want to "preach it" to Planned Parenthood to "believe what they want" concerning the lack of humanity of the pre-born, we certainly don't have to ignore free-speech rights, but we don't have to endorse their "right" to practice child-killing, either.
And if you're going to "preach it" to Mauritanian slave-holders amidst a country where 10-20% are still slaves to "believe what they want" re: slave-holding, I'm not going to endorse that, either...even if it's technically "legal" in that country to embrace slavery...
And if you're going to "preach it" to neo-Nazis to "believe what they want "re: Jews, I'm not going to endorse that as well.
And if you're going to "preach it" to Democrats that they can "believe what they want"...
...then may I suggest you take all this pathetic liberal crap and "amen it" elsewhere?

14 posted on 04/05/2013 9:17:29 AM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: Okieshooter
In the interest of full disclosure am not either a Mormon, a Christian or a Atheist, although that might depend on you definition of atheist. But that is a whole different issue.

It's actually all one cloth.

The most liberal views tend to be held most commonly by atheists.

Certainly extend a survey question now, + go back one, two generations, and ask them: "Do you consider an atheist to be a cultural 'liberal?'"

I'll betcha the overwhelming answers would be "yes."

Simply put: A "liberal" attempts to "liberate" people from accountability to God...

An atheist can claim all kinds of culturally infused conservativism; but when they opt to "liberate" people from God, they are at heart among that culture's "most liberal" citizens.

15 posted on 04/05/2013 9:23:03 AM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: Okieshooter
I thought Christains were supposed to turn the other cheek.

Only with other Christians. We are to defend and contend for the faith. Otherwise what would be the point. Do you not respond when a Muslim slanders the faith?

16 posted on 04/05/2013 9:27:03 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Okieshooter

Christians are to call out false doctrine when they see it. Jesus is the way to ever lasting life, not Joseph Smith and his fancy pants.


17 posted on 04/05/2013 9:29:58 AM PDT by dragonblustar (2 Peter 3:18)
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To: Colofornian

I quailfy my believe in freedom to believe with as long as it doesn’t harm others. Some of the examples you cited do, ie Planed Parenthood.

I don’t recall Mormon’s harming anyone since Mountain Meadows and that was about 150 years ago. Of course Christians haven’t had a stellar record in that regard over their history, but we are all human and make mistakes.

I try not to “preach” my beliefs but sometimes just make remarks from observations in passing. I know that people have strong feelings about their spiritual beliefs and are not very likely to change them unless they see something from within themselves.


18 posted on 04/05/2013 9:49:56 AM PDT by Okieshooter
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To: Okieshooter
I quailfy my believe in freedom to believe with as long as it doesn’t harm others. Some of the examples you cited do, ie Planed Parenthood. I don’t recall Mormon’s harming anyone since Mountain Meadows and that was about 150 years ago.

The great presumption is that all (or most) religious espousals "don't harm" others -- as if people have the sovereign omniscience to rule out the "spiritual" or spiritual harm to the soul.

And, of course, a "convenient" worldview of no hell and no ultimate accountability to God is tidy with an assumption of no long-term (as in eternal) damage of what is espoused on a world-wide basis.

19 posted on 04/05/2013 10:13:57 AM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: Colofornian; teppe
People are leaving the LDS Church without leaving the LDS Church.

But; are they joining up with TRUE Mormons?


"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

20 posted on 04/05/2013 2:31:24 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: panaxanax
Starting a thread based on comments from a blog site? LOL

Hey!

It beats starting a religion based on DEMON speak!

21 posted on 04/05/2013 2:32:26 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: panaxanax
Starting a thread based on comments from a blog site? LOL

Mocking a thread without actually defending/debunking the Mormonism facts shown?

SAD

22 posted on 04/05/2013 2:33:18 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Okieshooter
The religious tolerance that I hear from some freepers is mind boggling.

Ain't it though!!!


I just HATE when that happens!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

23 posted on 04/05/2013 2:34:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Okieshooter
I thought Christains were supposed to turn the other cheek.

And there's what thinkin' will get ya when you ain't used to it!


THIS is what CHRISTIANS do!


 
Acts 17:18-19
 18.  A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.
 19.  Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?
 
Acts 18:11
    So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
 
 
 
 
 
Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 
 
Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 
 
1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
 
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.
 
 
Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
 
 
1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.
 
 
1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
 
 
2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
 
 
 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.
 
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
 
 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
 
 
Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
 
 
Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
 
 
Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
 
 
 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.
 
 
 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 
 
2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.



24 posted on 04/05/2013 2:35:47 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MEGoody; Jeff Head
While I believe the Mormon doctrine to be false, they do believe in a God. They are not atheists.

Actually; they believe in MANY gods: polytheists.


Jesus Christ is God’s Son, spiritually and physically.

He calls Him Father, He prays to Him.
We are to pray to Him, God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, His Son.
God’s voice was heard at Christ’s baptism, coming from Heaven while He was in the water. The Holy Sirit also descended.
Three seperate entities/Gods.

Santorum endorses one-time rival Romney

Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:32:46 AM · 416 of 492
Jeff Head to stpio


25 posted on 04/05/2013 2:37:30 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Okieshooter
... one of the issues I have with revealed religions is they seem to emphasize our differences rather than how we are alike.

DUH!

How ya gonna get someone to SWITCH if All Roads Lead to Heaven?

26 posted on 04/05/2013 2:39:22 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Okieshooter
I quailfy my believe in freedom to believe with as long as it doesn’t harm others.

And you are free to do that.

MormonISM 'harms others' by steering them away from the one True GOD, and replacing Him with a watered down version that needs help in 'saving' souls.


What Joseph Smith Means to Us  (From: various sources )

 
 
 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670


They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224


27 posted on 04/05/2013 2:41:56 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
The question is, do i believe Joesph Smith to have been a false Prophet?
 
Do ANY of you "damned " SLC mormons reading this, who has gotten any information from your church, that old B.Y. was:
 
1. Speaking the very words of GOD
2. Drunk
3. On peyote
4. REALLY upset at SOMEone
5. Or just running his mouth as a man: a mere mortal, prone to the slings and arrows that beset us all or do you
6. just accept the FACT that you are, truly, damned for not following your Scripture found in D&C 132:58-66?

28 posted on 04/05/2013 2:42:54 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie; MEGoody
Yep...as I posted, it's God the Father (our Father in Heaven), God the Son (the Father's Son just as He said He was), and God the Holy Ghost (the 2nd Comforter whom Jesus promised that his Father would send).

MY WITNESS FOR JESUS CHRIST

AMERICA AT THE CROSSROADS OF HISTORY

29 posted on 04/05/2013 3:31:58 PM PDT by Jeff Head
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To: Elsie

I will just say that it appears that you are wasting a lot of bandwidth trying to convert me. In an earlier post I stated that people have strong feelings about their spiritual beliefs. I know that you will not understand that also includes me. I do understand that it includes you and that is why I make no effort to change yours.

I made couple of observations and asked a question. I have no desire to change anyone’s beliefs.

If you want to flame me for what I believe have at it. You should be able to figure it out by looking at my profile.


30 posted on 04/05/2013 4:04:40 PM PDT by Okieshooter
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To: Elsie

Lets go out to "Short Crick" and see if there are any atheists out there.

31 posted on 04/05/2013 4:46:54 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where the world comes to see America)
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To: Colofornian

WTH?


32 posted on 04/05/2013 7:08:37 PM PDT by svcw (If you are dead when your heart stops, why aren't you alive when it starts.)
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To: Okieshooter
If you want to flame me for what I believe have at it.

I hardly ever flame.

For the most part; I put out what the Bible says and what other 'religious' texts say and what the leaders of those other 'religions' have said.

If that gets people hot (you've seen it in this thread) should I STOP what I am doing?

The problem seems to be the EVIDENCE presented; not my ham-handed way of delivering it.

You appear to have made honest comments in this thread on what you believe.

33 posted on 04/06/2013 4:55:16 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Okieshooter; Sentinal; reaganaut
I will just say that it appears that you are wasting a lot of bandwidth trying to convert me.

Bandwidth these days is a very moot point; except to those who are getting this information on a small, handheld device; and if you remain unconverted, that is your choice. At least I have tried.

Others read these threads and HAVE become 'converted' by them.

34 posted on 04/06/2013 4:57:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Utah Binger
Lets go out to "Short Crick" and see if there are any atheists out there.

There just MIGHT be some in Arizona; But let's move a cupla states North and try....



Cowboy Poetry
by Bill Jones
 
 
 

Jake, the rancher, went one day
to fix a distant fence.
The wind was cold and gusty
and the clouds rolled gray and dense.

As he pounded the last staples in
and gathered tools to go,
The temperature had fallen,
the wind and snow began to blow.

When he finally reached his pickup,
he felt a heavy heart.
From the sound of that ignition,
he knew it wouldn't start.

So Jake did what most of us
would do if we had been there.
He humbly bowed his balding head
and sent aloft a prayer.

As he turned the key for the last time,
he softly cursed his luck.
They found him three days later,
frozen stiff in that old truck.

Now Jake had been around in life
and done his share of roaming.
But when he saw Heaven, he was shocked --
it looked just like Wyoming!

Of all the saints in Heaven,
his favorite was St. Peter.
(Now, this line ain't needed
but it helps with rhyme and meter)

So they set and talked a minute or two,
or maybe it was three.
Nobody was keeping' score --
in Heaven time is free.

"I've always heard," Jake said to Pete,
"that God will answer prayer,
But one time I asked for help,
well, he just plain wasn't there."

"Does God answer prayers of some,
and ignore the prayers of others?
That don't seem exactly square --
I know all men are brothers."

"Or does he randomly reply,
without good rhyme or reason?
Maybe, it's the time of day,
the weather or the season."

"Now I ain't trying to act smart,
it's just the way I feel.
And I was wondering', could you tell me --
what the heck's the deal?!"

Peter listened very patiently
and when Jake was done,
There were smiles of recognition,
and he said, "So, you're the one!!"

"That day your truck, it wouldn't start,
and you sent your prayer a flying,
You gave us all a real bad time,
with hundreds of us trying."

"A thousand angels rushed,
to check the status of your file,
But you know, Jake, we hadn't heard
from you in quite a long while."

"And though all prayers are answered,
and God ain't got no quota,
He didn't recognize your voice,
and started a truck in Minnesota."

35 posted on 04/06/2013 5:02:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Okieshooter
You should be able to figure it out by looking at my profile.

I did...

"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of humans; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow creatures happy.” ― Thomas Paine

Tom had a short list.

We have Noahides that pop into these religious threads from time to time with a short list of requirements, too.

36 posted on 04/06/2013 5:08:30 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
John made a few observations while on earth, and, being near Jesus, wrote a few things down that He said:

John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
 
 
 

This apparently got some fellows thinking and they asked a question of Jesus...

 
 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


1 John 3:21-24

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

(sounds like a shorter list than Tom had.)

37 posted on 04/06/2013 5:17:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

The Noahides list is based, like yours on special revelation, Tom and I base our list on general revelation.

Actually our short list can be pretty well summed up on a requirement that I am sure is on your list. That is the Golden Rule. And that brings us back to my original post on this thread.

Have a good day.


38 posted on 04/06/2013 8:48:07 AM PDT by Okieshooter
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