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Rumor Rumor Every Where, Nor Any Fact To Think? [Blog assesses 'LDS Church...not true' revelations]
Mormondisclosures.blogspot.com ^ | April 9, 2013

Posted on 04/09/2013 4:52:50 PM PDT by Colofornian

On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church.

Many many people have called the account fable and rumor. I’ve heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012). Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting. That does not mean that the opinions given by the mission president or GA are fact. I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity. That some of the claims aren't factual doesn't mean Grant has failed in reporting what he has experienced. It is what it is. Grant told me: "I even find some of it hard to believe. But the report is a chance to shake the tree and see what will come of it..."

Here are some of the statements and claims, bulleted.

Most probable factual claims

Less probable factual claims

Highly speculative

Many of the speculative claims contradict some of the less probable or more probable claims. For example, if the GA never heard one of the apostles ever admit directly to him that they did not believe, then how could he know they talk amongst themselves about the falsity of the church? How could he know how they justify staying with their sure knowledge of its falseness? How could he know they get paid so much hush money? (Well, they could have talked about forgivable loans/gifts without referring to it as hush money.) How could he know they would rather die than to admit it’s false?

For these contradictory reasons, I have place some claims in the speculative group.

However, I have received corroborating statements (rumors) about some of the less probable and some speculative claims.

1) an unnamed source who works with land development told me independently that properties are purchased by the LDS church for apostles through a developer named Ivory Homes LTD.

2) One such home is still listed under Ivory, but presumably will be possessed by Apostle David Bednar soon.

3) A COB employee who handles financial work has seen evidence suggesting payments made for the apostles and others are part of a loan they receive which have no payment schedules correlated (i.e., gifts disguised as loans).

4) MT’s current managing editor has said that Apostle Holland told him that as a new apostle he was at the “beck and call” of senior apostles who took up most of his time when he was a junior.

5) A current exmormon who was being groomed to be a general authority said he was told by a COB employee who worked with him that the employee’s number one role was to get the man “church broke” (the first time the man had heard that term).

6) a COB lawyer affirmed that all high level church employees and volunteers who have access to any financial information at the church sign non-disclosure agreements (NDA).

7) The NDAs are life-long binding agreements whose violations have strict civil penalties and can result in having any and all property used by the employee/worker/volunteer removed immediately; force repayment of all past and current considerations, benefits and perks retained or enjoyed by the employee; revoke any and all associations, contracts (book deals) or other financial arrangements owned, leased or facilitated by church companies; and potentially revoke academic or other honors bestowed upon the employee or family of the employee which are assigned to them through their association with church companies, universities or other institutions.

8) Reported by various persons (former members in public forums) is that family members of high-level authorities in the church receive many financial and vocational opportunities of employment or business dealings because of their father/brother/grandfather’s church ranking.

9) There is legal action occurring abroad against the church which may force the financial information to open further and reveal more about the truth behind these rumors. Stay tuned. (these things take time and legal funds.)

10) Grant Palmer and Tom Phillips have been informed that likely all general authorities receive their second anointing which is another covenant to keep loyal to the church and not reveal its secrets; though not as binding as a legal NDA, it is much like a fraternity of life-long business and political associates who pledge at Ivy League.

11) In June or July, there is rumored to be another foreign GA that will come forward and even in an interview disclose additional information on these matters. Stay tuned.

My thoughts... How likely is it that all the apostles are absolute doubters? Each of them individually may fall in the spectrum of deluded conned man or full-out evil conman. But to believe that they are all deluded says that every last one of them is ridiculously idiotic about the reality they are supposedly defending. Of course, on the flip-side, one can argue, if they're all evil liars, that's a difficult-to-believe conspiracy. Many will argue that such a conspiracy is unlikely to keep a lid on. Conspiracy is a bad word. This is a corporation with corporate trade secrets. These kind of secrets are kept all the time at the top of most large, diverse companies, with the knowledge compartmentalized with those having a need to know. Even CEOs do not know all the trade secrets of the company because such details are far beyond a single human capacity to know. The kind of deals and financial arrangements made in any corporation is held tight. Secrecy in other (government) organizations is obviously not compromised as well.

But is this a criminal conspiracy? Not to the Q12/first presidency.

First of all, these men do not actually control the finances of the church. They're at its mercy. Much of their adult lives have been spun up and dedicated into one system. They are running the front-face of a massive corporation. The machinery is beyond them. But the rock-stardom it gives them reaches far into their extended family. They're all surfing a wave created by doctrinal policy sausage grinders they couldn't themselves stomach if they knew it all.

They have a lot of perks. They have fans. They have trips. They have ranches, hunting preserves, malls, cultural centers and throngs to enjoy. They have books ghost written and command austere obedience on demand. Not only do they already have many more book deals with their own bookstore (deseret book), they have families with prestige in the state of UT that brings about business opportunities for their children and many of their grandchildren.

Not one of them is actually that talented at this late point in life in scriptural scholarship or academic studies. While they may not need it to write a church dismantling tome, they will need the credibility when one of them alone stands, as an old (potentially senile) man, against a unanimous quorum. Without significant credibility, charges of senility will absolutely ring true for 99% of members.

A single book deal exposing it will fall flat. The family of that man will be utterly disgraced. The business they built and reputation they have will be dismantled. Not the church.

Better to stay the course and slowly reform it without upsetting the family apple cart. I'll post more rumors here in this blog as they come to me in the next week...


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: antichristian; disbelievers; generalauthorities; inman; lds; mormonism; sectarianturmoil
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If you simply write in a Google search: Lds "April 9" 2013...guess what comes up in the top 30 - 35 hits or so in that Google search today? Answer? THIS blog!

Why? What's so Mormon-significant about the content of this blog? (Well, keep reading)

From a second-hand version of the report by Grant Palmer: [Note for a first-hand version, go here: anonymous blog]:

On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church. Many many people have called the account fable and rumor. I’ve heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012). Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting...I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity.

This blogger then broke down Grant Palmer's claims into three categories..."Most probable factual claims"; "Less probable factual claims"; "Highly speculative"...yet then even says: "I have received corroborating statements (rumors) about some of the less probable and some speculative claims" -- and proceeds to list 11 such "corroborations" of them!

In concluding comments from this blog about these Lds "general authorities," the blogger describes their "rock-stardom" status that "it gives them reaches far into their extended family. They're all surfing a wave created by doctrinal policy sausage grinders they couldn't themselves stomach if they knew it all. They have a lot of perks. They have fans. They have trips. They have ranches, hunting preserves, malls, cultural centers and throngs to enjoy. They have books ghost written and command austere obedience on demand. Not only do they already have many more book deals with their own bookstore (deseret book), they have families with prestige in the state of UT that brings about business opportunities for their children and many of their grandchildren.

These Lds high-level leaders have it all "cushy" -- at the expense of the average Mormon's 10% of their lifetime income! And worse, at the expense of truth itself!

1 posted on 04/09/2013 4:52:50 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
For a thread on ex-Mormon Grant Palmer's blog, see: Three Meetings with a LDS General Authority, 2012- 2013 ['LDS Church...not true' uttered by leaders]
2 posted on 04/09/2013 4:55:38 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

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To: All
Mormon Stories is a Web site run by a Mormon (John Dehlin), among others.

Here's a 2012 podcast interview you can listen to between Dehlin and Grant Palmer: Grant Palmer on Sexual Allegations Against Joseph Smith, William and Jane Law, and His Resignation

6 posted on 04/09/2013 5:40:56 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: Colofornian

Thank you for discussing “rumors” from an “anonymous blog”. Scaping the bottom of the barrel.


7 posted on 04/09/2013 5:42:59 PM PDT by District13 (Obama scares me)
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To: All
ALL: Ya need to know who Grant Palmer is...he is a former LDS Church Educational System Institute Director & teacher...Here is an interview where Palmer discusses his journey within Mormonism -- which he left -- and his view of Jesus:
Episode 130: Grant Palmer
8 posted on 04/09/2013 5:44:40 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: District13
Thank you for discussing “rumors” from an “anonymous blog”. Scaping the bottom of the barrel.

Re-Read THIS thread's posting...'cause the writer "id's" the "anonymous" blog-writer as Grant Palmer...As does this thread...ALSO posted: Three Meetings with a LDS General Authority, 2012- 2013

So is Grant Palmer, in your eyes, "The bottom of the barrel." Is that the way you treat ex-Mormons who -- per this thread's author "is of the highest integrity"???

9 posted on 04/09/2013 5:50:53 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: All
This ex-Mormon explains how the LDS church as a "franchise" of sorts uses financial-legal entanglements to keep its leaders in line (in case they are ever "tempted" to leave the bee hive):

I've suspected that the cult used some kind of legal means to keep people quiet. Perhaps giving them loans that can be called due of they step out of line. Can you tell us more about this point? May dad was a church employee for 20 years before he left. I myself did a bit of consulting for them 15 years ago. This is what I have learned myself: Intellectual reserve, the legal proprietary arm of the church, makes you sign a contract. You cannot disclose what you did for them, how much you were paid or that you were hired as a contractor (I was). You cannot keep copies of the work, talk or publish it, it is owned it its entirety by the church. General authorities (I don't know of this applies to 2nd quorum of the 70's) sign over their property over to a trust, if you violate your contract they keep your property. What I have researched and heard from other ex- leaders: Since the time of BY, the church "lends" money to GA's for personal projects. This money is interest free and does not have to be repaid (this is for legal, tax and doctrinal reasons) if you tow the line. If you step out of line it becomes due and it is a lien on your property. Any income from sitting on boards, as director, consultant, etc- which is what the 12 spend most of their time doing, you keep, if you leave, since you are a representative of the church on those boards, you lose and may have to pay back. of course you loose your "living expenses" (60-120K), your access to church property for personal use (Hawaii, Florida, Europe, etc) This is how a "humble" life long seminary teacher (BKP) or meager church employee (GBH) can end up as millionaires as pass on significant wealth to family members. If you step out of line, its all gone and you are in serious legal trouble.

Source: Poster 'Jiminy Cricket' @ ExMormon.org: April 9, 2013 Recovery from Mormonism thread entitled: 'Do the GAs believe it? Here's one person's opinion'

11 posted on 04/09/2013 6:05:22 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: All
More Grant Palmer links posted yesterday (April 8), courtesy of Steve Benson @ RFM (Recovery From Mormonism:
RFM is making an impact. First, Grant Palmer is quoted as saying GAs are personally meeting with him to confess their private conclusions that the Mormon Church is false, plus--
12 posted on 04/09/2013 6:23:32 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: Colofornian

Mormon Placemarker


13 posted on 04/09/2013 6:44:31 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: District13
I will pray for you my friend for it is clear that you fear reading or hearing anything that is contrary to what you have either been taught or have grown up believing, that you reject it out of hand as lies and "scraping the bottom of the barrel."

I pray that the true Holy Spirit washes the scales from your eyes so that you may come to see the true Jesus Christ, not the brother of Satan. a demonic statement if there ever was one.

I pray that you do not choose to follow Joseph Smith into Hell, for he certainly is there and through his lies, has led millions to join him there forever.

There is a true God in heaven, not one that had sex with his own daughter Mary to give birth to the Mormon Jesus, as is claimed in Mormonism.

I hope and pray that tonight you pray to Him and ask the Holy Spirit to point you to the truth that is available in the Holy Bible but not in Mormon scriptures that Joseph Smith perverted are an abomination to the real God in heaven.

14 posted on 04/09/2013 7:12:56 PM PDT by zerosix (Native sunflower)
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To: Colofornian

Ex-Mormons, ex-Baptists, ex-Catholics, ex-Presbyterians, ex-Pentecostals, ex-Episcopalians, ex-whatevers - people are free to leave a denomination and seek a Church where they are more comfortable. The LDS Church has converts from all persuasions and your church has ex-Mormons. So what’s your point?


15 posted on 04/09/2013 7:13:47 PM PDT by District13 (Obama scares me)
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To: zerosix
“I pray that you do not choose to follow Joseph Smith into Hell”

I choose to follow Jesus Christ, my Savior. Here is another example of a FReeper condemning me (and all Mormons) to hell. Please note that my Judge and Advocate is Jesus Christ.

I attended General Conference last Sunday and the anti Mormons were there. One guy was reading the Holy Bible very loudly - and I told him we believe the Bible and that I love the Holy Bible so I thanked him for reading the Scriptures. Then there was this other guy screaming at the top of his lungs condemning us all to hell (your dear friend and compatriot).

I think it would be good if you would seek out the lost rather than waste your time preaching to those who love the Savior with all our hearts.

But it's a free country.

16 posted on 04/09/2013 7:21:09 PM PDT by District13 (Obama scares me)
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To: zerosix

“There is a true God in heaven, not one that had sex with his own daughter Mary to give birth to the Mormon Jesus, as is claimed in Mormonism”

That is untrue and horribly offensive. There is only One Jesus Christ, the Savior of the whole world, Who suffered and died for me to save me from my sins. My Jesus died for Mormons, too. Your Jesus is unknown to me; He seems mean and devoid of love and acceptance. I am sad for you.


17 posted on 04/09/2013 7:27:52 PM PDT by District13 (Obama scares me)
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To: District13
Ex-Mormons, ex-Baptists, ex-Catholics, ex-Presbyterians, ex-Pentecostals, ex-Episcopalians, ex-whatevers - people are free to leave a denomination and seek a Church where they are more comfortable. The LDS Church has converts from all persuasions and your church has ex-Mormons. So what’s your point?

My point is that we don't usually reference ex-Evangelicals as "bottom of the barrel" people -- like you referenced ex-Mormon Grant Palmer in your post.

Besides, your post here implies some level of "interchangeable" church membership.

Yet I was looking just yesterday at an LDS Relief Society Manual revised by the Lds church in the year 2000. They were citing Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie's 1966 Mormon Doctrine book, who claimed that a "valid LDS testimony" MUST have three elements...one of those being a quotation of D&C 1:30 -- that the Mormon Church "is the only true & living church on the face of the whole earth."

SO...per the official Mormon church curricula...no Mormon testimony is valid unless it acknowledges that all other churches are false & dead!

That's hardly something that's "interchangeable" church membership-wise based upon sheer "comfort" level!!!

You've said, District, you are ex-Baptist...Therefore, we'd like to hear per your own keyboard convey...

Per D&C 1:30, we assume you believe that the LDS church is the ONLY true & Living church on the face of the whole earth? Correct?
And, if so, the flip side of that "valid...LDS testimony" is that ALL OTHER churches -- including the various Baptist churches -- are false & dead...Correct?

18 posted on 04/09/2013 7:28:50 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: bigheadfred

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


19 posted on 04/09/2013 7:30:02 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: District13

“Here is another example of a FReeper condemning me (and all Mormons) to hell.”

Telling you the truth about mormonism is not “condemning you to hell. It is the opposite, telling you to flee and accept the Gospel of Grace in order to go to heaven. If you do not do so, it is you who condemns yourself to hell.

“Please note that my Judge and Advocate is Jesus Christ.”

Sure, but are you referring to the Biblical Jesus Christ, eternally God, neither begotten, nor made...

OR

... the mormonic Jesus, a created spirit being who later became one of the 4 mormon earth gods - not eternal, and not able to save nor be an advocate.

Which Jesus are you referring to??


20 posted on 04/09/2013 7:37:02 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: District13; zerosix; aMorePerfectUnion; All
I attended General Conference last Sunday and the anti Mormons were there. One guy was reading the Holy Bible very loudly - and I told him we believe the Bible and that I love the Holy Bible so I thanked him for reading the Scriptures.

So volume level when reading the Bible automatically qualifies someone as "anti-Mormon?"

If somebody reads the Book of Mormon loudly in the presence of Christians, they are automatically to be deemed anti-Christians???

If you believe in (some of) the Bible, then that's hardly reason for offense...to hear one read it...

ALL: NOW you can perhaps realize the rather flimsy basis so many Mormons label others as "anti-Mormon..." All ya have to do is read the Bible loudly in the presence of Mormons, and you qualify as "anti-Mormon."

21 posted on 04/09/2013 7:48:06 PM PDT by Colofornian (If BoM is everlasting gospel, why no god as exalted man, 3 glorious degrees, men becoming gods, etc?)
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To: Colofornian

wow 2.0


22 posted on 04/09/2013 7:56:27 PM PDT by svcw (If you are dead when your heart stops, why aren't you alive when it starts.)
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To: District13

Did you even look at what was posted, or are you just responding to the poster.......inquiring minds want to know.


23 posted on 04/09/2013 7:57:33 PM PDT by svcw (If you are dead when your heart stops, why aren't you alive when it starts.)
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To: District13
Mormons claim that is who Jesus is and how he came to be, as Mary was God's spirit child in the pre-existence and that he, God, came to earth and together they begat Jesus, LDS Apostle Orson Pratt, "The Seer," p. 158.

If you don't believe me, research Joseph Smith writings in "Teachings of the Prophet," pgs. 335-347, yourself and he also claimed God was once a man and men can become gods themselves.

Jos. Smith also has claimed God was born of a father and mother in another universe, again from "Teachings of the Prophet," pgs. 344-347 and LDS President Ezra Taft Benson, "Come Unto Christ," pg. 4.

Finally, Brigham Young taught Jesus was a spirit child of Adam. It is written in the "Journal of Discourses 1:50-51," but the church no longer teaches that.

So am I to believe God was a man born on another solar system or Adam?

I make none of this up myself, it is all written and documented in official Mormon scriptures and writings by their various Prophets and leaders.

24 posted on 04/09/2013 8:07:07 PM PDT by zerosix (Native sunflower)
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To: District13
You are the lost, that is the point. Your own doctrine place Joe Smith in the path of salvation in judgment. The Christ you follow is not the Christ that is the True Savior, the Christ of the Holy Bible which your "prophets" say is flawed

This is the truth, the facts are laid out for all to see. Your acceptance of them does not change the truth..

25 posted on 04/09/2013 8:09:45 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: District13

That is Mormon Doctrine, straight from one of our “prophets”.


26 posted on 04/09/2013 8:11:02 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Colofornian

Is there any other church on earth that has a governing body that is more secretive than the LDS?

The Catholic church doesn’t govern this way and I know of no protestant church that does. Why all the secrecy and not allowing any church member freedom to speak freely about the very foundation of their beliefs?

Joeseph Smith was a big fat fraud. Most of us knew that all along.


27 posted on 04/09/2013 8:31:09 PM PDT by Graybeard58 (_.. ._. .. _. _._ __ ___ ._. . ___ ..._ ._ ._.. _ .. _. .)
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To: Graybeard58

Is there any other church on earth that has a governing body that is more secretive than the LDS?

________________________________________________________

The governing body of the Holy Catholic Church recently met in The Vatican behind LOCKED DOORS. And you say the Mormons are secretive.

The Catholic church claims to be the holders of the keys that Peter the chief Apostle of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church excommunicated Martin Luther yet descendants of the Church of Martin Luther claim authority because of their link to him.

Either the Catholic Church is right and the rightful heir to the Apostolic office and no other church has a leg to stand on and are all “an abomination” as the Mormons say OR The Catholic Church went astray and none of the churches have a leg to stand on and are all “an Abomination” just like the Catholics are accused of being. If number two is true then the LDS have as much right to their church and beliefs being right as anyone else because if the Protestants are right about the Catholics then none of them have any AUTHORITY to settle the issue. In that case all doctrine disputes must be settled by the Scriptures, oh that is what we have isn’t it. Since everybody gets something different from the Scriptures from everybody else I would say I hope the Catholics are right or there is no right unless the Mormons are right.

Joseph Smith taught that “all were an abomination”. Since the Protestant churches taught that the Catholic Church was “an abomination” and started their own churches in its stead how can they now say that the Catholic church is OK? If the Catholic Church is OK then the Protestants are blasphemers and cultists. If all the rest of you say the Catholic Church went astray then only God can set it straight. When did that happen?

Did God have sex with Mary? Apparently someone did. The record of God in the scripture says the Holy Ghost came upon her and she conceived. For anybody to say they know what that means is silly. All we know is that something happened between God (The Holy Ghost) and Mary according to the scriptures. I don’t care if it was sex or artificial insemination, she knew no MAN and was a virgin. Something transpired between God and Mary, the scriptures make that very clear.

I know a lot of Mormons. The stuff in this post is just silliness, especially as related to Bednar. His sons are very active with callings in Their Church and they support their father, I’ve met them. One of them goes to church in the same building with my wife and has introduced himself to me and spoken to me on numerous occasions, the other I only met once.

You may not believe what the Mormons believe, thats ok they may not believe what you believe, but, they believe the Joseph Smith story of the first vision and all the doctrines presented by The Church.

Just like any other church there are members that were raised in The Church but are not believers. They are what is called “in-active”. Some of them hate it that they are not respected by the active members and look for ways to hurt The Church so they can feel better about their inactivity. Just like queers that want to be married they don’t like feeling like outsiders who are looked down upon.

Any time I see writing by an ex-Mormon I know that that is a “disaffected” Mormon, someone who has an ax to grind. If you hate the Mormons just say you hate them. If you love your Baptist Church just tell us you love your Baptist Church and why.

Anybody that won’t put their name to a document that accuses an organization they are still a member of is despicable, the last thing I would do is listen to someone so dishonest that they still claim membership in something they claim is evil. If that is true then they are worse than the organization they belong to.

Just my two cents.


28 posted on 04/09/2013 9:21:04 PM PDT by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: Graybeard58

Is there any other church on earth that has a governing body that is more secretive than the LDS?

________________________________________________________

The governing body of the Holy Catholic Church recently met in The Vatican behind LOCKED DOORS. And you say the Mormons are secretive.

The Catholic church claims to be the holders of the keys that Peter the chief Apostle of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church excommunicated Martin Luther yet descendants of the Church of Martin Luther claim authority because of their link to him.

Either the Catholic Church is right and the rightful heir to the Apostolic office and no other church has a leg to stand on and are all “an abomination” as the Mormons say OR The Catholic Church went astray and none of the churches have a leg to stand on and are all “an Abomination” just like the Catholics are accused of being. If number two is true then the LDS have as much right to their church and beliefs being right as anyone else because if the Protestants are right about the Catholics then none of them have any AUTHORITY to settle the issue. In that case all doctrine disputes must be settled by the Scriptures, oh that is what we have isn’t it. Since everybody gets something different from the Scriptures from everybody else I would say I hope the Catholics are right or there is no right unless the Mormons are right.

Joseph Smith taught that “all were an abomination”. Since the Protestant churches taught that the Catholic Church was “an abomination” and started their own churches in its stead how can they now say that the Catholic church is OK? If the Catholic Church is OK then the Protestants are blasphemers and cultists. If all the rest of you say the Catholic Church went astray then only God can set it straight. When did that happen?

Did God have sex with Mary? Apparently someone did. The record of God in the scripture says the Holy Ghost came upon her and she conceived. For anybody to say they know what that means is silly. All we know is that something happened between God (The Holy Ghost) and Mary according to the scriptures. I don’t care if it was sex or artificial insemination, she knew no MAN and was a virgin. Something transpired between God and Mary, the scriptures make that very clear.

I know a lot of Mormons. The stuff in this post is just silliness, especially as related to Bednar. His sons are very active with callings in Their Church and they support their father, I’ve met them. One of them goes to church in the same building with my wife and has introduced himself to me and spoken to me on numerous occasions, the other I only met once.

You may not believe what the Mormons believe, thats ok they may not believe what you believe, but, they believe the Joseph Smith story of the first vision and all the doctrines presented by The Church.

Just like any other church there are members that were raised in The Church but are not believers. They are what is called “in-active”. Some of them hate it that they are not respected by the active members and look for ways to hurt The Church so they can feel better about their inactivity. Just like queers that want to be married they don’t like feeling like outsiders who are looked down upon.

Any time I see writing by an ex-Mormon I know that that is a “disaffected” Mormon, someone who has an ax to grind. If you hate the Mormons just say you hate them. If you love your Baptist Church just tell us you love your Baptist Church and why.

Anybody that won’t put their name to a document that accuses an organization they are still a member of is despicable, the last thing I would do is listen to someone so dishonest that they still claim membership in something they claim is evil. If that is true then they are worse than the organization they belong to.

Just my two cents.


29 posted on 04/09/2013 9:23:48 PM PDT by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: District13
Thank you for discussing “rumors” from an “anonymous blog”. Scaping the bottom of the barrel.

Yup; I just HATE rumors.

Here is some FACT instead:

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)


30 posted on 04/10/2013 4:30:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
This ex-Mormon explains how the LDS church as a "franchise" of sorts uses financial-legal entanglements to keep its leaders in line (in case they are ever "tempted" to leave the bee hive):


HMMMmmm...




Corporation of the President

ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION
of the
CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS
CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

STATE OF UTAH

COUNTY OF SALT LAKE

I, the undersigned, having been duly chosen and appointed President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in conformity with the rites, regulations and discipline of said Church, being desirous of forming a corporation for the purpose of acquiring, holding and disposing of Church or religious society property, for the benefit of religion, for works of charity and for public worship, under and pursuant to the provisions of Chapter 3, Title 19, of the Compiled Laws of Utah, 1917, on "Churches and Religious Societies," and all acts amendatory thereof and supplementary thereto, for that purpose do hereby make and subscribe, in duplicate, the following

ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION

First: The name of this corporation shall be the CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

Second: The object of this corporation shall be to acquire, hold and dispose of such real and personal property as may be conveyed to or acquired by said corporation for the benefit of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a religious society, for the benefit of religion, for works of charity and for public worship. Such real and personal property may be situated, either within the State of Utah, or elsewhere, and this corporation shall have power, without any authority or authorization from the members of said Church or religious society, to grant, sell, convey, rent, mortgage, exchange, or otherwise dispose of any part or all of such property.

Third: The estimated value of the property of which I hold the legal title for the purpose aforesaid, at the time of making these Articles of Incorporation, is One Million, Five Hundred Thousand Dollars.

Fourth: The title of the person making these Articles of Incorporation is "PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS."

Fifth: The corporation seal shall contain the words, "Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," and an impression thereof is hereto affixed.

[Seal] [Signed] Heber J. Grant
President of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints.

STATE OF UTAH
SS:
COUNTY OF SALT LAKE

On this 26th day of November, 1923, before me, Arthur Winter, a Notary Public in and for said County, personally appeared HEBER J. GRANT, who is known to me to be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and duly acknowledged to me that he executed the same as such President.

[Seal] [Signed] Arthur Winter
Notary Public
Residing at Salt Lake City, Utah.
My commission expires Dec. 1, 1923.


AMENDMENT TO

ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION
of the
CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS
CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

 

 

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
STATE OF UTAH ss.
COUNTY OF SALT LAKE

HEBER J. GRANT, being first duly sworn, deposes and says:

That he is now and for more than twenty years last past has been the duly chosen and appointed President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and as such President has been since on or about the 26th day of November, 1923, and now is, the legally constituted Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter=day Saints, a corporation sole; that under and pursuant to Section 18-7-5 R.S.U. 1933 he hereby amends Article "Fourth" of said Articles of Incorporation as now of record in the proper offices of this and other states, said article as amended to read as follows:

ARTICLE FOURTH

Fourth: The title of the person making these articles of incorporation is "President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." He and his successor in office shall be deemed and are hereby created a body politic and corporation sole with perpetual succession, having all the powers and rights and authority in these articles specified or provided for by law. But in the event of death or resignation from office of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or in the event of a vacancy in that office from any cause, the President or Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of said Church, or one of the members of said Quorum thereunto designated by that Quorum, shall, pending the installation of a successor President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, be the corporation sole under these articles, and the laws pursuant to which they are made, and shall be and is authorized in his official capacity to execute in the name of the corporation all documents or other writings necessary to the carrying on of its purposes, business and objects, and to do all things in the name of the corporation which the original signer of the articles of incorporation might do; it being the purpose of these articles that there shall be no failure in succession in the office of such corporation sole.

[Signed] Heber J. Grant
President of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints,
corporation sole.
[Seal]

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 18 day of June, 1940.
[the name of Notary Public not shown on copy of amendment]

(Original in State of Utah Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah)


ARTICLES OF AMENDMENT
TO THE

ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION
of the
CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS
CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.


A UTAH CORPORATION SOLE

Pursuant to the provisions of Section 16-7-5 of the Utah Code Annotated 1953 (as amended) relating to amendments of articles of incorporation of corporations sole, the CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, a Utah Corporation Sole, does hereby amend its Articles of Incorporation by adding an additional Paragraph V thereto as follows:

Upon the winding up and dissolution of this corporation, after paying or adequately providing for the debts and obligations of the corporation, the remaining assets shall be distributed to a nonprofit fund, foundation or corporation, which is organized and operated exclusively for charitable, educational, or religious and/or scientific purposes and which has established its tax-exempt status under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the undersigned has caused these presents to be executed this 19th day of November, 1973.

CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE
CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY
SAINTS, a Utah Corporation Sole

By: [signed] Harold B. Lee
Harold B. Lee, Corporation Sole

STATE OF UTAH ) ss:
County of Salt Lake )

HAROLD B. LEE, being first duly sworn, deposes and says: That he is now and ever since July 7, 1972, has been the duly chosen and appointed President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and, as such president, is now and ever since said date has been the legally constituted CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, a Utah Corporation Sole; that the original Articles of Incorporation of said Corporation Sole were executed by Heber J. Grant, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints; that he, Harold B. Lee, is the successor in office to the said Heber J. Grant; that he, Harold B. Lee, executed the foregoing Articles of Amendment as said Corporation Sole.

[signed] Harold B. Lee

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this 19th day of November, 1973.

[signed] Wilford W Kirton, Jr
NOTARY PUBLIC
Residing at Salt Lake City, Utah
My commission expires:
2-3-77


Articles of Incorporation as amended:

ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION

First: The name of this corporation shall be the CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

Second: The object of this corporation shall be to acquire, hold and dispose of such real and personal property as may be conveyed to or acquired by said corporation for the benefit of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a religious society, for the benefit of religion, for works of charity and for public worship. Such real and personal property may be situated, either within the State of Utah, or elsewhere, and this corporation shall have power, without any authority or authorization from the members of said Church or religious society, to grant, sell, convey, rent, mortgage, exchange, or otherwise dispose of any part or all of such property.

Third: The estimated value of the property of which I hold the legal title for the purpose aforesaid, at the time of making these Articles of Incorporation, is One Million, Five Hundred Thousand Dollars.

Fourth: The title of the person making these articles of incorporation is "President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." He and his successor in office shall be deemed and are hereby created a body politic and corporation sole with perpetual succession, having all the powers and rights and authority in these articles specified or provided for by law. But in the event of death or resignation from office of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or in the event of a vacancy in that office from any cause, the President or Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of said Church, or one of the members of said Quorum thereunto designated by that Quorum, shall, pending the installation of a successor President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, be the corporation sole under these articles, and the laws pursuant to which they are made, and shall be and is authorized in his official capacity to execute in the name of the corporation all documents or other writings necessary to the carrying on of its purposes, business and objects, and to do all things in the name of the corporation which the original signer of the articles of incorporation might do; it being the purpose of these articles that there shall be no failure in succession in the office of such corporation sole.

Fifth: Upon the winding up and dissolution of this corporation, after paying or adequately providing for the debts and obligations of the corporation, the remaining assets shall be distributed to a nonprofit fund, foundation or corporation, which is organized and operated exclusively for charitable, educational, or religious and/or scientific purposes and which has established its tex-exempt status under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

Sixth: The corporate seal shall contain the words, "Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," and an impression thereof is hereto affixed.

31 posted on 04/10/2013 4:32:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
In case ya missed it...

... this corporation shall have power, without any authority or authorization from the members of said Church or religious society, to grant, sell, convey, rent, mortgage, exchange, or otherwise dispose of any part or all of such property.

32 posted on 04/10/2013 4:33:20 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
So what’s your point?

The LDS religious organization is based on lies from hell.

33 posted on 04/10/2013 4:34:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
Then there was this other guy screaming at the top of his lungs condemning us all to hell (your dear friend and compatriot).

Brigham was THERE???!!!

34 posted on 04/10/2013 4:35:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
I attended General Conference last Sunday and the anti Mormons were there. One guy was reading the Holy Bible very loudly - and I told him we believe the Bible and that I love the Holy Bible so I thanked him for reading the Scriptures.

Yeah; "as long as it's translated correctly."

If you 'love it' so much; then WHY do you rely so much on OTHER 'scripture'?

35 posted on 04/10/2013 4:37:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
That is untrue and horribly offensive.

OH oh!

Someone doesn't know the TEACHING of the LDS religious organization!!

36 posted on 04/10/2013 4:37:59 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
“Here is another example of a FReeper condemning me (and all Mormons) to hell.”

SOMEbody has Brigham Young confused with FREEPERS!!!

37 posted on 04/10/2013 4:39:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
If somebody reads the Book of Mormon loudly in the presence of Christians, they are automatically to be deemed anti-Christians???

Nah...

THIS does:


Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

38 posted on 04/10/2013 4:40:13 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw
Did you even look at what was posted, or are you just responding to the poster.......inquiring minds want to know.

When the umbrage, the bluff and the braggadocio ends, then the MORMONs will sniffle off to the next thread that shows even MORE MORMON teachings they've never heard of.

Finally - some day - the Holy Spirit WILL have His way with them...

39 posted on 04/10/2013 4:42:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: JAKraig
You may not believe what the Mormons believe, thats ok they may not believe what you believe, but, they believe the Joseph Smith story of the first vision and all the doctrines presented by The Church.

Of COURSE they do!!!


 



 
"Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes, whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the 'prophets, seers, and revelators' of the Church is cultivating the spirit of apostacy..."
(Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354)
 
 
 
Reinforced here......
 

MP3 File

This is the audio clip of Dallin H. Oaks, current Mormon Apostle leader, from the PBS documentary, "The Mormons", declaring unequivocally:

"IT'S WRONG TO CRITICIZE LEADERS OF THE (MORMON) CHURCH, EVEN IF THE CRITICISM IS TRUE."
 

 
Don't criticize?

 
 
 
 
And here:
 

Temple Recommend Questions:

 1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

 5 Do you live the law of chastity?

 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

     Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?

     Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?
 
 
 
 


Oh, they can say that their leaders were NOT speaking for GOD when they said    WHATEVER    but that's NOT the same as criticizing!


 
( Remember fellow Christians:  the Mormon's criticize US because they've been taught that they CAN'T criticize ANY of their leaders; so they HAVE to vent somehow! )



40 posted on 04/10/2013 4:44:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: JAKraig
The governing body of the Holy Catholic Church recently met in The Vatican behind LOCKED DOORS.

LOOK!!!

Over THERE!!!



41 posted on 04/10/2013 4:46:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: JAKraig; Sentinal
Any time I see writing by an ex-Mormon I know that that is a “disaffected” Mormon, someone who has an ax to grind.

Such knowledge is amazing!

42 posted on 04/10/2013 4:47:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ejonesie22
Your own doctrine place Joe Smith in the path of salvation in judgment.

How can you make this CLAIM????


Oh...

Never mind...


What Joseph Smith Means to Us  (From: various sources )

 
 
 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670


They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224


43 posted on 04/10/2013 4:49:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13; zerosix

Please provide where zerosix condemned you to hell.
I found nothing in what they said, that says what you said.
However, lds teaches this:
It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670)
Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270
“And the angel of God said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.”
- Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10-11

So when you say you worship Jesus Christ, just who is that?
Because according to lds, the Biblical Christ is not the christ of lds.


44 posted on 04/10/2013 8:04:22 AM PDT by svcw (If you are dead when your heart stops, why aren't you alive when it starts.)
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To: District13; zerosix

Please provide where zerosix condemned you to hell.
I found nothing in what they said, that says what you said.
However, lds teaches this:
It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670)
Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270
“And the angel of God said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.”
- Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10-11

So when you say you worship Jesus Christ, just who is that?
Because according to lds, the Biblical Christ is not the christ of lds.


45 posted on 04/10/2013 9:39:10 AM PDT by svcw (If you are dead when your heart stops, why aren't you alive when it starts.)
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To: JAKraig
they believe the Joseph Smith story of the first vision and all the doctrines presented by The Church.

Since there are fourteen versions of "the first version", which one do they beleive?

All doctrines, huh?

Even the ones that say if it were not for Joseph Smith there would be no salvation and the he will sit with the lds jesus to decide who gets to which celestial level? (Well, yes they do)

46 posted on 04/10/2013 9:50:16 AM PDT by svcw (If you are dead when your heart stops, why aren't you alive when it starts.)
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To: JAKraig
"Any time I see writing by an ex-Mormon I know that that is a “disaffected” Mormon, someone who has an ax to grind. "

I agree. And as a corollary...

Any time I see writing by a Mormon I know that that is a “deluded” cult member, someone who has an ax to grind. Someone who has traded the objective knowledge and propositional truth of the Holy Scriptures, for personal experience, apart from facts, logic, or evidence. Yet they believe...

... They believe a civilization covered Meso-America from sea to shining see - full of vast metal works and millions of people and mythical creatures like cureloms. Despite there being no buildings, no foundations, no rusting metal, no curelom bones, etc. Why? They have feelings!

... They believe Christ went on Spring Break to Meso-America to preach to indians - notifying them that they were really Jewish. Despite what we now know about genetic markers, they cling to this false belief. Why? They have feelings!

... They believe something created and non-eternal, can become God. Despite their ignorance of logic leaving them in the position of ignoring God's character as omnipotent (all powerful), and instead accepting the falsehood of lots of gods, of whom none are omnipotent. Still they believe. Why? They have feelings!

... They believe their God and Goddess breed in the heavens, rutting continually to produce an onslaught of spirit children to populate new worlds. Even worse, they have accepted that they have the potential to aspire to godhood, continually bedding goddesses and ruling over a planet of their own. Despite all the Bible teaches about the nature of God, it is swept aside to make Him into a creature. Why? They have feelings!

And then they show up to criticize former mormons who have seen the silliness of it all and left the morg. Why? These escaped mormons are to them as the little boy who shouted, "the king has no clothes!"

Rather than attacking them, perhaps mormons here on FR will kindly provide FACTS, EVIDENCE, or LOGIC to support any of their wild claims. I've personally asked for almost 10 years and have yet to see a single fact that supports mormonism. I've yet to see any logic of any position mormons hold. I've yet to see any evidence to support any mormon belief. Until that happens, they remain deluded, wearing secret underwear, caught in a prideful effort to prove their own worthiness before God, instead of coming to Him and accepting His Gospel of Grace.

47 posted on 04/10/2013 1:10:01 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: District13
Ex-Mormons, ex-Baptists, ex-Catholics, ex-Presbyterians, ex-Pentecostals, ex-Episcopalians, ex-whatevers - people are free to leave a denomination and seek a Church where they are more comfortable. The LDS Church has converts from all persuasions and your church has ex-Mormons. So what’s your point?

There is only freedom in the real Jesus Christ and only He can set you "free"! You can belong to every church in the world and not know Jesus.

Church should never "comfortable" to sinners! I know because I'm a sinner in need of a savior.
48 posted on 04/10/2013 1:20:17 PM PDT by ForAmerica (Texas Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: svcw
You know what is truly so very sad is that many of these deluded folk existing inside the LDS ward houses are truly sweet, giving, salt-of-the-earth folk and I'd never say nor do anything to hurt or offend them personally.

Yet, it is when I or others point out what their own leaders have written or said that is in print, just not available in their own homes or if it is, they choose not to read it, they are shocked and offended, not at their leaders for hiding these statements from them but to me and others like me who try to bring the truth to them.

What is shameful is that their leadership went so far as to claim to be "Christians, too, just like other Christians," merely to gloss over the religious beliefs of Mitt Romney, when they teach just the opposite, that is shameful.

The LDS leaders and Mormon missionaries still teach that the other churches claiming to be Christian are "whores" and an "abomination to God," while at the same time telling nominal Christians that they are "just like them."

LDS missionaries wouldn't be running all over the U.S. trying to convert those nominal Christians to the church of Joseph Smith, if they believed in the biblical Jesus, just as I and millions of other Christians do.

Brigham Young, when telling of the Book of Genesis, in his Journal of Discourses says both that Adam is God and also the father of Jesus Christ!

That these statements are documented fact, should be no surprise to a modern day Mormon, yet they are.

That non-Mormons upon hearing about them either respond by disbelief or total shock that any clear minded person could believe such heresy, is incredible yet true.

49 posted on 04/10/2013 1:37:23 PM PDT by zerosix (Native sunflower)
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To: zerosix

Yep


50 posted on 04/10/2013 2:05:13 PM PDT by svcw (If you are dead when your heart stops, why aren't you alive when it starts.)
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