Skip to comments.Rumor Rumor Every Where, Nor Any Fact To Think? [Blog assesses 'LDS Church...not true' revelations]
Posted on 04/09/2013 4:52:50 PM PDT by Colofornian
On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church.
Many many people have called the account fable and rumor. Ive heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012). Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting. That does not mean that the opinions given by the mission president or GA are fact. I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity. That some of the claims aren't factual doesn't mean Grant has failed in reporting what he has experienced. It is what it is. Grant told me: "I even find some of it hard to believe. But the report is a chance to shake the tree and see what will come of it..."
Here are some of the statements and claims, bulleted.
Most probable factual claims
Less probable factual claims
Many of the speculative claims contradict some of the less probable or more probable claims. For example, if the GA never heard one of the apostles ever admit directly to him that they did not believe, then how could he know they talk amongst themselves about the falsity of the church? How could he know how they justify staying with their sure knowledge of its falseness? How could he know they get paid so much hush money? (Well, they could have talked about forgivable loans/gifts without referring to it as hush money.) How could he know they would rather die than to admit its false?
For these contradictory reasons, I have place some claims in the speculative group.
However, I have received corroborating statements (rumors) about some of the less probable and some speculative claims.
1) an unnamed source who works with land development told me independently that properties are purchased by the LDS church for apostles through a developer named Ivory Homes LTD.
2) One such home is still listed under Ivory, but presumably will be possessed by Apostle David Bednar soon.
3) A COB employee who handles financial work has seen evidence suggesting payments made for the apostles and others are part of a loan they receive which have no payment schedules correlated (i.e., gifts disguised as loans).
4) MTs current managing editor has said that Apostle Holland told him that as a new apostle he was at the beck and call of senior apostles who took up most of his time when he was a junior.
5) A current exmormon who was being groomed to be a general authority said he was told by a COB employee who worked with him that the employees number one role was to get the man church broke (the first time the man had heard that term).
6) a COB lawyer affirmed that all high level church employees and volunteers who have access to any financial information at the church sign non-disclosure agreements (NDA).
7) The NDAs are life-long binding agreements whose violations have strict civil penalties and can result in having any and all property used by the employee/worker/volunteer removed immediately; force repayment of all past and current considerations, benefits and perks retained or enjoyed by the employee; revoke any and all associations, contracts (book deals) or other financial arrangements owned, leased or facilitated by church companies; and potentially revoke academic or other honors bestowed upon the employee or family of the employee which are assigned to them through their association with church companies, universities or other institutions.
8) Reported by various persons (former members in public forums) is that family members of high-level authorities in the church receive many financial and vocational opportunities of employment or business dealings because of their father/brother/grandfathers church ranking.
9) There is legal action occurring abroad against the church which may force the financial information to open further and reveal more about the truth behind these rumors. Stay tuned. (these things take time and legal funds.)
10) Grant Palmer and Tom Phillips have been informed that likely all general authorities receive their second anointing which is another covenant to keep loyal to the church and not reveal its secrets; though not as binding as a legal NDA, it is much like a fraternity of life-long business and political associates who pledge at Ivy League.
11) In June or July, there is rumored to be another foreign GA that will come forward and even in an interview disclose additional information on these matters. Stay tuned.
My thoughts... How likely is it that all the apostles are absolute doubters? Each of them individually may fall in the spectrum of deluded conned man or full-out evil conman. But to believe that they are all deluded says that every last one of them is ridiculously idiotic about the reality they are supposedly defending. Of course, on the flip-side, one can argue, if they're all evil liars, that's a difficult-to-believe conspiracy. Many will argue that such a conspiracy is unlikely to keep a lid on. Conspiracy is a bad word. This is a corporation with corporate trade secrets. These kind of secrets are kept all the time at the top of most large, diverse companies, with the knowledge compartmentalized with those having a need to know. Even CEOs do not know all the trade secrets of the company because such details are far beyond a single human capacity to know. The kind of deals and financial arrangements made in any corporation is held tight. Secrecy in other (government) organizations is obviously not compromised as well.
But is this a criminal conspiracy? Not to the Q12/first presidency.
First of all, these men do not actually control the finances of the church. They're at its mercy. Much of their adult lives have been spun up and dedicated into one system. They are running the front-face of a massive corporation. The machinery is beyond them. But the rock-stardom it gives them reaches far into their extended family. They're all surfing a wave created by doctrinal policy sausage grinders they couldn't themselves stomach if they knew it all.
They have a lot of perks. They have fans. They have trips. They have ranches, hunting preserves, malls, cultural centers and throngs to enjoy. They have books ghost written and command austere obedience on demand. Not only do they already have many more book deals with their own bookstore (deseret book), they have families with prestige in the state of UT that brings about business opportunities for their children and many of their grandchildren.
Not one of them is actually that talented at this late point in life in scriptural scholarship or academic studies. While they may not need it to write a church dismantling tome, they will need the credibility when one of them alone stands, as an old (potentially senile) man, against a unanimous quorum. Without significant credibility, charges of senility will absolutely ring true for 99% of members.
A single book deal exposing it will fall flat. The family of that man will be utterly disgraced. The business they built and reputation they have will be dismantled. Not the church.
Better to stay the course and slowly reform it without upsetting the family apple cart. I'll post more rumors here in this blog as they come to me in the next week...
From a second-hand version of the report by Grant Palmer: [Note for a first-hand version, go here: anonymous blog]:
On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church. Many many people have called the account fable and rumor. Ive heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012). Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting...I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity.
This blogger then broke down Grant Palmer's claims into three categories..."Most probable factual claims"; "Less probable factual claims"; "Highly speculative"...yet then even says: "I have received corroborating statements (rumors) about some of the less probable and some speculative claims" -- and proceeds to list 11 such "corroborations" of them!
In concluding comments from this blog about these Lds "general authorities," the blogger describes their "rock-stardom" status that "it gives them reaches far into their extended family. They're all surfing a wave created by doctrinal policy sausage grinders they couldn't themselves stomach if they knew it all. They have a lot of perks. They have fans. They have trips. They have ranches, hunting preserves, malls, cultural centers and throngs to enjoy. They have books ghost written and command austere obedience on demand. Not only do they already have many more book deals with their own bookstore (deseret book), they have families with prestige in the state of UT that brings about business opportunities for their children and many of their grandchildren.
These Lds high-level leaders have it all "cushy" -- at the expense of the average Mormon's 10% of their lifetime income! And worse, at the expense of truth itself!
Here's a 2012 podcast interview you can listen to between Dehlin and Grant Palmer: Grant Palmer on Sexual Allegations Against Joseph Smith, William and Jane Law, and His Resignation
Thank you for discussing “rumors” from an “anonymous blog”. Scaping the bottom of the barrel.
Re-Read THIS thread's posting...'cause the writer "id's" the "anonymous" blog-writer as Grant Palmer...As does this thread...ALSO posted: Three Meetings with a LDS General Authority, 2012- 2013
So is Grant Palmer, in your eyes, "The bottom of the barrel." Is that the way you treat ex-Mormons who -- per this thread's author "is of the highest integrity"???
I've suspected that the cult used some kind of legal means to keep people quiet. Perhaps giving them loans that can be called due of they step out of line. Can you tell us more about this point? May dad was a church employee for 20 years before he left. I myself did a bit of consulting for them 15 years ago. This is what I have learned myself: Intellectual reserve, the legal proprietary arm of the church, makes you sign a contract. You cannot disclose what you did for them, how much you were paid or that you were hired as a contractor (I was). You cannot keep copies of the work, talk or publish it, it is owned it its entirety by the church. General authorities (I don't know of this applies to 2nd quorum of the 70's) sign over their property over to a trust, if you violate your contract they keep your property. What I have researched and heard from other ex- leaders: Since the time of BY, the church "lends" money to GA's for personal projects. This money is interest free and does not have to be repaid (this is for legal, tax and doctrinal reasons) if you tow the line. If you step out of line it becomes due and it is a lien on your property. Any income from sitting on boards, as director, consultant, etc- which is what the 12 spend most of their time doing, you keep, if you leave, since you are a representative of the church on those boards, you lose and may have to pay back. of course you loose your "living expenses" (60-120K), your access to church property for personal use (Hawaii, Florida, Europe, etc) This is how a "humble" life long seminary teacher (BKP) or meager church employee (GBH) can end up as millionaires as pass on significant wealth to family members. If you step out of line, its all gone and you are in serious legal trouble.
I pray that the true Holy Spirit washes the scales from your eyes so that you may come to see the true Jesus Christ, not the brother of Satan. a demonic statement if there ever was one.
I pray that you do not choose to follow Joseph Smith into Hell, for he certainly is there and through his lies, has led millions to join him there forever.
There is a true God in heaven, not one that had sex with his own daughter Mary to give birth to the Mormon Jesus, as is claimed in Mormonism.
I hope and pray that tonight you pray to Him and ask the Holy Spirit to point you to the truth that is available in the Holy Bible but not in Mormon scriptures that Joseph Smith perverted are an abomination to the real God in heaven.
Ex-Mormons, ex-Baptists, ex-Catholics, ex-Presbyterians, ex-Pentecostals, ex-Episcopalians, ex-whatevers - people are free to leave a denomination and seek a Church where they are more comfortable. The LDS Church has converts from all persuasions and your church has ex-Mormons. So what’s your point?
I choose to follow Jesus Christ, my Savior. Here is another example of a FReeper condemning me (and all Mormons) to hell. Please note that my Judge and Advocate is Jesus Christ.
I attended General Conference last Sunday and the anti Mormons were there. One guy was reading the Holy Bible very loudly - and I told him we believe the Bible and that I love the Holy Bible so I thanked him for reading the Scriptures. Then there was this other guy screaming at the top of his lungs condemning us all to hell (your dear friend and compatriot).
I think it would be good if you would seek out the lost rather than waste your time preaching to those who love the Savior with all our hearts.
But it's a free country.
“There is a true God in heaven, not one that had sex with his own daughter Mary to give birth to the Mormon Jesus, as is claimed in Mormonism”
That is untrue and horribly offensive. There is only One Jesus Christ, the Savior of the whole world, Who suffered and died for me to save me from my sins. My Jesus died for Mormons, too. Your Jesus is unknown to me; He seems mean and devoid of love and acceptance. I am sad for you.
My point is that we don't usually reference ex-Evangelicals as "bottom of the barrel" people -- like you referenced ex-Mormon Grant Palmer in your post.
Besides, your post here implies some level of "interchangeable" church membership.
Yet I was looking just yesterday at an LDS Relief Society Manual revised by the Lds church in the year 2000. They were citing Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie's 1966 Mormon Doctrine book, who claimed that a "valid LDS testimony" MUST have three elements...one of those being a quotation of D&C 1:30 -- that the Mormon Church "is the only true & living church on the face of the whole earth."
SO...per the official Mormon church curricula...no Mormon testimony is valid unless it acknowledges that all other churches are false & dead!
That's hardly something that's "interchangeable" church membership-wise based upon sheer "comfort" level!!!
You've said, District, you are ex-Baptist...Therefore, we'd like to hear per your own keyboard convey...
Per D&C 1:30, we assume you believe that the LDS church is the ONLY true & Living church on the face of the whole earth? Correct?
And, if so, the flip side of that "valid...LDS testimony" is that ALL OTHER churches -- including the various Baptist churches -- are false & dead...Correct?
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
“Here is another example of a FReeper condemning me (and all Mormons) to hell.”
Telling you the truth about mormonism is not “condemning you to hell. It is the opposite, telling you to flee and accept the Gospel of Grace in order to go to heaven. If you do not do so, it is you who condemns yourself to hell.
“Please note that my Judge and Advocate is Jesus Christ.”
Sure, but are you referring to the Biblical Jesus Christ, eternally God, neither begotten, nor made...
... the mormonic Jesus, a created spirit being who later became one of the 4 mormon earth gods - not eternal, and not able to save nor be an advocate.
Which Jesus are you referring to??