Skip to comments.Man will become like God, say Mormons and transhumanists in Salt Lake City
Posted on 04/11/2013 2:55:09 PM PDT by blasater1960
Man becoming godlike: belief or heresy?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), aka Mormon Church, has a concept of boundless elevation and exaltation of Man, through all means including science and technology, until he becomes like God.
Conversely, God was once like Man before attaining an exalted status. [Mormonism] allows for humans to ascend to a higher, more godlike level, writes Max More in his introduction to The Transhumanist Reader, rather than sharply dividing God from Man.
(Excerpt) Read more at kurzweilai.net ...
Standard Mormon theology from way back.....nothing new here.
Jugears and his followers believe he's there............
can we all stop with the Mormon-Catholic-whatever bashing for the sake of restoring our country?
I sometimes think that trolls purposely come to this site to stir up controversy. Meanwhile that devil like creature in the white house runs wild.
You might consider giving a courtesy ping, then.
We are already “Like” God in some ways compared to 2,000 years ago...
We can ascend into the heavens, check
We can make bad water drinkable, check
We can raise the dead, to a degree, check
We can control the weather, check
So we are moving in that direction, however will not BECOME God, be we will become more and more LIKE a “god”, but we will never surpass or even MEET the almighty...
To unite, you need to start with a foundation of truth.
There is no shared truths with Mormons and Christians because the Christians believe in the Bible while Mormons believe in another gospel. Their views of God are completely different. Mormons carry a Bible but that’s like Obama holding onto a booklet of the constitution edited by Saul Alinsky.
The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were gods and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him for we can prevent Him, if we choose He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.
turning you permanently into a different sort of thing; into a new little Christ, a being which, in its own way, has the same kind of life as God; which shares in His power, joy, knowledge and eternity
And some of the early church fathers said some interesting stuff on this too...
St. Athanasius wrote that God became man so that men might become gods.
St. Cyril of Alexandria says that we are called temples of God and indeed gods, and so we are.
St. Gregory of Nazianzus implores us to become gods for (Gods) sake, since (God) became man for our sake.
St. Irenaeus of Lyons stated that God became what we are in order to make us what he is himself.
St. Augustine of Hippo preached To make human beings gods, He was made man who was God.
This is from a non-LDS site.
I'm not here to get into a spitting match with any of the usual suspects, nor will I. I'm here to show there is more than one side to every anti Mormon thread. Take it as you all will. I'm out.
mormoinsim is not conservatism.
mormonism has always taught, and still does that the lds god was once a man, and you can be too, if you follow all the rules and rituals.
a concept of boundless elevation and exaltation of Man
In this country there is a boundless elevation and exaltation of GOVERNMENT.
Can you tell me what books are on either side of Mosiah, I can’t find it in my Bible.
Would you speak up if you witnessed a Christian being seduced by a Mormon telling him that Mormonism is a Christian church?
I think they meant politically unite not religiously unite.
>>>can we all stop with the Mormon-Catholic-whatever bashing for the sake of restoring our country? >>>
>>>I sometimes think that trolls purposely come to this site to stir up controversy. Meanwhile that devil like creature in the white house runs wild.>>>
I’m so glad that you spoke about the trolls. They are evident and should be ignored or told to go away.
Not quite standard Mormon stuff.
The Transhumanism posits nothing whatsoever do do with God, but is instead a proto-nazist creed. Advancing beyond human will be by genetic research and eugenics combined with closed environments and isolation.
Nor is Catholicism, what difference does it make??
Not so fast. The sleight of mind performed by the Mormons comes nowhere close even to the sleight of hand of a Las Vegas lounge stage magician. C. S. Lewis is no crypto-Mormon. Not only do his works not support the Mormon theology of deification, in fact they expressly contradict it. Each of the Lewis citations have been taken out of their contexts and twisted. In addition, frequently in his writings about humanitys eternal destiny, he carefully clarifies the eternal and impassible gulf between the only Creator and His creatures, including humans.
In the first quote, Lewiss context comes in a chapter called Counting the Cost, and describes the process of sanctification that God begins at the moment one becomes a Christian and will continue until we are reunited after death and the judgment with our resurrected bodies, when we will be perfect, that is, complete, as creatures. In fact, the sentence immediately preceding the Mormons favorite is He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command.18 In the same small volume he explains,
What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God.19
In The Weight of Glory Lewis explains what he means by the perfection that God will work in us as we are sanctified, resurrected, and glorified. He distinguishes between God, the only Creator, and humans, even glorified, the created. In the beginning of the essay he explains,
The promises of Scripture may very roughly be reduced to five heads. It is promises, firstly, that we shall be with Christ; secondly, that we shall be like Him; thirdly . . . that we shall have glory; fourthly, that we shall, in some sense, be fed or feasted or entertained; and finally, that we shall have some sort of official position in the universeruling cities, judging angels, being pillars of Gods temple.20 Lewiss positive assertions that we can never be deified in the Mormon sense come in a variety of forms. In his popular The Problem of Pain he notes,
For we are only creatures; our role must always be that of patient to agent, female to male, mirror to light, echo to voice. Our highest activity must be response, not initiative. To experience the love of God in a true, and not an illusory form, is therefore to experience it as our surrender to His demand, our conformity to His desire.21
Lewis notes the infinite chasm between Creator and creature when he describes, in the same book, the fall of humanity as This act of self-will on the part of the creature, which constitutes an utter falseness to its true creaturely position, is the only sin that can be conceived as the Fall.22 Lewis concludes The Problem of Pain with the glorious comparison:
As our Earth is to all the stars, so doubtless are we men and our concerns to all creation; as all the stars are to space itself, so are all creatures, all thrones and powers and mightiest of the created gods, to the abyss of the self-existing Being, who is to us Father and Redeemer and indwelling Comforter, but of whom no man nor angel can say nor conceive what He is in and for Himself, or what is the work that he maketh from the beginning to the end. For they are all derived and unsubstantial things. Their vision fails them and they cover their eyes from the intolerable light of utter actuality, which was and is and shall be, which never could have been otherwise, which has no opposite.23
Perhaps nowhere is Lewiss consciousness of the utter difference between God and those made in His image greater than in his compelling science fiction trilogy, the Space Trilogy, consisting of three books, Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength.24 Lewis draws the reader into a world of time and space travel, alternate worlds, evil and technological destruction and good and selfless sacrifice. It is the story of all stories, the redemption story that began in Eden and, for this series, ends in post-World War II England: God has created us for glory. We have abandoned Him in favor of our own evil desires. He has done everything to redeem us to Himself. Will we respond in faith believing, inheriting the glory prepared for us? Or will we respond with continued self-worship and absorption, damned by our own idolatry to worship ourselves, gods beneath our own dignity? The first way is Gods way. The secondwhether cloaked in pantheism, polytheism, the henotheism of Mormon theology, or the masterful guise of materialistic humanismis not.
Endnotes: 1. C. S. Lewis, Beyond Personality (London: The Centenary Press, 1945), 48. Also contained in Mere Christianity (New York: Macmillan Company, 1952), 174-175.
2. Lewis is misused by other individuals, religious movements, and organizations as well; and Mormons also attempt to defend their deification theology in other ways, such as comparing it to the nonheretical Eastern Orthodox theology of theosis, but the focus of this brief article is restricted to the Mormon use of Lewiss writings for this purpose. For more information on these issues, see Richard and Joan Ostlings Mormon America: The Power and the Promise (San Francisco: HarperCollins, 1999), especially pages 307-314; Grace and the Divinization of Humanity at http://mysticalrose.tripod.com/grace3.html; and Kurt Van Gordens Can Man Progress to Godhood? at www.answers.org/Theology/Man_become_God.html.
3. Ted Olsen, C. S. Lewis, Christian History, no. 65 (spring 2000) in The Ten Most Influential Christians of the Twentieth Century.
4. Lewis died November 23, 1963, the same date as John F. Kennedy and Aldous Huxley.
5. Craig L. Blomberg and Stephen E. Robinson, How Wide the Divide? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1997).
6. In an article contributed by Robinson to editor Daniel H. Ludlows Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 5 vols. (New York: Macmillan Press, 1992).
7. Conference brochure, n.p., n.d.
8. John W. Kennedy, Southern Baptists Take Up the Mormon Challenge Christianity Today, 15 June 1998, 30.
9. Jay Copp, Readers Cross Religious Lines for C. S. Lewis, Christian Science Monitor, 23 May 1999, 19.
10. See www.signaturebooksinc.com/stranger.htm.
11. Despite its goals and the credentials of its contributors, there is no way to historically, evidentially, biblically, philosophically, or scientifically verify the fiction of Mormon history and theology. This, however, is not the forum for a critique of FARMS.
12. See www/farmsresearch.com/ free/qanda/basicissuesch5.html.
13. C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory (Grand Rapids, Mich.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1949), 14-15.
14. For information see www.jersey.net/~inkwell/mormonet.htm.
15. Quoted from Richard and Joan Ostling, Mormon America: The Power and the Promise (San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1999), 308. 16. Ibid., 307.
17. Ibid., 307-308.
18. Lewis, Beyond Personality, 48.
19. Ibid., 12-13.
20. Lewis, The Weight of Glory, 7.
21. C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1962), 51. 22. Ibid., 80. 23. Ibid., 153-154. 24. Available in various editions, including 1996 edition from Simon and Schuster.
Godzilla - courtesy ping to a repost of your earlier post that contradicts the idea that good old Lewis meant anything similar to the heresy of mormonism...
“Would you speak up if you witnessed a Christian being seduced by a Mormon telling him that Mormonism is a Christian church?”
I guess you missed the part of my post when I stated “.... what should be a magical word to conservatives—UNITE.” I didn’t state that DIVIDE should be a magical word to conservatives.
1 Peter 3:8 -— Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
Divide is the magic word!
Yeshua promised to divide us.
Read Matthew ch 10.
I think all Conservatives should unite regardless of faith..
So the Christian (nor the Mormon) would get no help from you as he was being seduced by lies to slip from Christianity and led into being converted into the religion of Mormonism?
I would say is this constant attacks on the religious beliefs of others who share most of our interests is counterproductive to the goal of keeping this country from going to hell.
2Tim 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
“I think all Conservatives should unite regardless of faith.”
“We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately” -— Benjamin Franklyn at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Some folks, some FReepers included, just don’t “get it”.
The horrific theology isn’t the assertion that man will become like God. Jesus did say, “Ye shall be gods.” The problem is in what Mormons see God as.
Man will become god-like in many ways. But God is uncreated; man is created. God was never man. And the process by which man becomes gods will be completely an act of divine creation, not the result of any human technological progress. Man will be given his godliness in every sense from God.
So I take it you didn’t support Mia Love..
Well, this thread is about mormonism, that’s the difference.
Just answer the damn question.. Did you or did you not support Mia Love (a good conservative) just because she was a Mormon..
Then I have to pick up dog poop, pay taxes and shop while trying to find the best deal on whole chickens.
Testy aren’t we.
Mia Love, is not someone I considered because she was running in a state I do not live.
She appears to be a great person, and that has nothing to do with mormonism.
No, I’m just sick and tired of ass wipes like you who refuses to see the big picture...
Wow....you are channeling Hillary.
So??? Should it matter the faith of the person regardless if the person is Conservative?? Besides the Catholics tend to support the rat party.
An anti-Christian cult, that poses as Christian to seduce Christians away from Christianity, would be at the top of the list of evil forces wouldn't it?
This is the religion forum about a discussion on mormonism, and I am the wipe ass.
Seriously, dude, get off the Religion Forum and go to News, then we can talk.
“...like you who refuses to see the big picture...”
I see an even bigger picture that has to do with eternity.
It is far bigger than a small piece of history in one nation and which temporal political party in that nation gets to be in charge of screwing the people this time.
I see you found an Orthodox website that give an exposition of the original Christian conception of salvation: much more exalted than being let off from punishment for our sins and spending eternity with Jesus, actually participating in the life of the All-Holy Trinity, theosis being the technical Greek word we prefer, and the explanation given by the later Father of the Church, St. Gregory Palamas in terms of grace as the Uncreated Energies of God, being the usual way the doctrine is now stated.
The problem with the Mormon notion of salvation as becoming “like God” lies not in that notion, but in the Mormon conception of God — a poor conception, shorn of absolute transcendence, simply one of many gods who beget and are begotten, a man writ large like the pagan gods of old. Were that who God is, what would be the point of pursing theosis?
Blessedly, that is not who God is, He is who He is, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, absolutely transcendent, beyond all created categories, transcending even the distinction between transcendence and immanence in the Incarnation of the Son and the assumption of our nature, and in the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Church.
And there are not evil forces attacking the Church of Christ? If you're going to make it an either/or choice, it's an easy one for me: I'm a Christian first and a conservative second (Joshua 24:15). Fortunately, there is no reason that a person can't be both simultaneously.
(Then tell the near 100,000 Lds missionaries going out this year to stop referencing Catholics, Protestants, & Orthodox as "apostates"....& tell them to remove the same references laced thruout their online articles & curricula...and tell them to remove the offensive "First Vision" Mormon references that label 100% of our Christian creeds an abomination)
Since I doubt you'll be contacting Salt Lake City Lds HQ on ANY of these things, I am not convinced of the sincerity of your comment...Oh, sure, it might be a true "off-the-cuff" surface expression...but I doubt there's any deep conviction behind it...otherwise you'd start with the side that has spent MEGA $ to attack Christianity...not with a handful of FReeper posters...
Did you or did you not give $ support to Mia Love's campaign? If not, why not?
Are you belittling those you reference as "belittlers?" Are you bashing those you label as "bashers?"
I would say is this constant attacks on the religious beliefs of others who share most of our interests is counterproductive to the goal of keeping this country from going to hell. [Old Browser, #28]
And you used what should be a magical word to conservatives--UNITE. There are many evil forces within this country seeking (and making considerable progress) the destruction/degradation of our culture and our Republic. Let's know the true enemy and stop being stuck on stupid. [House Atreides, post #9]
Now exactly WHAT are the problems with comments such as what we above, and a few of the "amens" we saw?
#1: If we took these comments 100% seriously, then critiquing Islam is totally off of the table. Is that what you're saying should happen, House Atreides? cherry? Old Browser? kitkat? Just make Islam, etc. teflon-proof from critiques?
#2: These comments are never seemingly addressed to the greatest provocateurs? Have I ever labeled 100% of Mormonism's creeds to be an "abomination" before God? No. Has the Mormon church spent $millions of dollars making the same claim about 100% of Christian creeds? (Ya better believe it!)
#3 I could probably guess that the folks who the apostle Paul warned the church @ Ephesus about had the bulk in common with the sheep there. Both groups were "religious." So, did Paul play the "allies"-game-don't-divide-us" that many of you are playing? (No)
As Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:
"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)
Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves! And the apostle Paul had NO QUALMS about referencing these men as truth-distorting "savage wolves" -- hardly an endearing term!
Tell me something, posters: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it's rather important? So what? Are we as Christians simply to conclude, "Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament -- what does he know about cultural priorities?"
Lastly, 'Tis good we didn't have the likes of you as leaders during WWII...There we fought Japan, Germany & Italy on MULTIPLE frontlines. To hear some of you tell it, multi-tasking is somehow beyond conservatives.
I am a lifelong Christian. My concern is that we have a truly evil group in Washington that seems bent on crippling our nation. I believe that this country has been the greatest source of good for many decades. The infighting among conservatives is not allowing us to join forces to stop this administration which is laying waste to the country.
The atheists, the abortionists, the gays and lesbians, the Marxists, and assorted other groups gave no problem set aside their differences in order to unite and gain power so that their interests can be addressed.
We on the other hand seem to relish fighting each other. Some people are not conservative enough and others are too conservative. Some people are not holy enough, some are not white enough, some are not something or the other enough. We neutralize each other and we accomplish very little. Christians, Mormons, Hindus, we can work together. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech are what we seek to preserve. Wouldn't it be a shame if intolerance for other religions was the reason we lost our freedom of religion?