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To: wonkowasright

“Tradition preserves the same and constant interpretation. Tradition was commanded by scripture itself.”

I like Augustine’s tradition, and “Pope” Gregory the First. They’re not like Rome’s current teachers.

“Pope” Gregory the First, for example, says that the See of Peter is governed by three Bishops. Thus, the Bishops of Antioch, Alexandria and Rome all possess the throne of Peter.

“Whereas there were many apostles, yet for the principality itself, one only see of the apostles prevailed, in authority, which is of one, but in three places. For he elevated the see in which he condescended to rest, and to finish his present life. He decorated the see, to which he sent his disciple the evangelist, and he established the see, in which, although he intended to leave it, he sat for seven years. Since there fore the see is of one and is one, over which three bishops preside by divine authority, whatsoever good I hear of you, I ascribe to myself. And if you hear any good of me, number it among your merits, be- cause we are all one in him who says, that all should be one, as thou, O Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may be one in us. — In the Eulogy’ to the Bishop of Alexandria

Theodoret references the same belief when he places the “throne of Peter” under the Bishop of Antioch:

“Dioscorus, however, refuses to abide by these decisions; he is turning the See of the blessed Mark upside down; and these things he does though he perfectly well knows that the Antiochene (of Antioch) metropolis possesses the throne of the great Peter, who was teacher of the blessed Mark, and first and coryphæus (head of the choir) of the chorus of the apostles.” Theodoret - Letter LXXXVI - To Flavianus, Bishop of Constantinople.

Here is Augustine channeling the wicked Protestants, who in turn were just reading the scripture plainly:

But these brethren of ours, about whom and on whose behalf we are now discoursing, say, perhaps, that the Pelagians are refuted by this apostolical testimony in which it is said that we are chosen in Christ and predestinated before the foundation of the world, in order that we should be holy and immaculate in His sight in love. For they think that “having received God’s commands we are of ourselves by the choice of our free will made holy and immaculate in His sight in love; and since God foresaw that this would be the case,” they say, “He therefore chose and predestinated us in Christ before the foundation of the world.” Although the apostle says that it was not because He foreknew that we should be such, but in order that we might be such by the same election of His grace, by which He showed us favour in His beloved Son. When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. “But we say,” say they, “that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work.” But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, “We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things.” [Eph. 1.11.] He, therefore, work-eth the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;” [Rom. 11.29.] and of which it is said: “Not of works, but of Him that calleth” [Rom. 9.12.] (although He might have said, “of Him that believeth”); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” [John 15.16.] For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. But all the many things which we have said concerning this matter need not be repeated.

Augustine against the idea of Mary being more blessed than believers:

“It is written in the Gospel, that when the mother and brethren of Christ, that is, his relations after the flesh, were announced to him, and waited without, not being able to approach him by reason of the crowd, he answered, “Who is my mother, and who are my brethren” and prompting to his disciples he said, ‘• These are my brethren, and whosoever shall perform the will of my Father, he is my brother and mother and sister.” What else did he teach us by this, but that we should prefer our spiritual to our carnal relationship, nor that men are therefore blessed because they are carnally related to righteous and holy men, but because they adhere to them by their obedience and their imitation of them in doctrines and morals. Mary, there fore, teas more blessed in adopting the faith of Christ, than in conceiving his flesh. For when some one said to him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, he answered,. Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it. Lastly, what did that relation- hip profit his brethren, that is, his relations after the flesh, who did not believe in him i Thus also her maternal relationship would have profited Mary nothing, if she had not borne Christ more blessedly in her heart than in her flesh.” — Upon Her Virginity

More against the Roman cult of Mary:

“Wherefore when the Lord appeared wonderful in the midst of the crowd, working signs and wonders, and showing what was hidden in the flesh, certain persons admiring, said, Blessed is the womb that bare thee. But he answered, Verily blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it. That is to say, My mother, whom thou hast called blessed, is thence blessed because she keeps the word of God, not because the Word was made flesh within her.” — Tenth treatise on the second chap of John’s Gospel

Augustine explaining that he understands the eating and drinking of Christ as figurative:

“If a passage is perceptive, and either forbids a crime or wickedness, or enjoins usefulness or charity, it is not figurative. But if it seems to command a crime or wickedness, or to forbid usefulness or kindness, it is figurative. Unless ye shall eat, he says, the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you. He appears to enjoin wickedness or a crime. It is a figure, therefore, teaching us that we partake of the benefits of the Lord’s passion, and that we must sweetly and profitably treasure up in our memories, that his flesh was crucified and wounded for us.”— The third book upon Christian Doctrine


“Jesus answered and said to him, This is the work of God, that ye believe in him whom he hath sent. To do this is to eat the meat which perishes not, but endures unto eternal life. Why do you prepare your teeth and your stomach ? Believe only and you will have eaten.” — The 5th treatise upon the 6th chapter of the Gospel of John,

Against Peter being the Rock of the Church:

“I have said in a certain passage respecting the apostle Peter, that the church is founded upon him as upon a rock. But I know that I have frequently afterwards so expressed myself, that the phrase “ Upon this rock,” should be understood to be the rock which Peter confessed. For it was not said to him, Thou art Petra, but, Thou art Petrus, for the rock, was Christ. Let the reader select which of these two opinions he deems the most probable.” — The first book of his Retractions

Against Peter only receiving the Keys, and not all the Apostles:

“It appears in many passages of Scripture that Peter represented the church, and particularly in that place where it is said, I give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven... For did Peter receive those keys, and did John and James and the other apostles not receive them? What was given to him, was given to the church. Therefore Peter represented the church, and the church was the body of Christ. — Serm. 149, upon the words of 10th ch. of Acts

Against only Peter being told to feed the sheep:

“When it was said to him, Lovest thou me, Feed my sheep, it was said to all.” — Upon the Christian Contest

Against Justification by Works:

“All our good merits are only wrought in us by grace, and when God crowns our merits, he crowns nothing but his own gifts.” — To Sextus, letter 194,

Against Images:

“This is the chief cause of this mad impiety, that a figure resembling a living form operates more forcibly upon the feelings of these wretch ed men, than its being manifest that it is not living, and therefore that it ought to be despised by the living.” — Exposition of the 113th Psalm.

Against intercession from dead Saints:

“He is the High-priest who has now entered within the veil, and who alone of those who have appeared in the flesh, intercedes for us. As a figure of which, among the first people and in the first temple, the high-priest alone entered into the holy of holies, whilst all the people stood without.” — On the 64lst Psm.

I could literally go on for a very long time with these.

So, I guess it depends on whose Tradition you want to listen to. The Catholics prior to 500-600AD, or the Romanists circa 2013, who are even still different from the Romanists prior to Vatican II.

As for me, I’ll just read the plain words of the scriptures as we are commanded to:

2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Because the scripture does not change with men, but is always useful for reproof, correction, doctrine, so that the man of God may be perfect:

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

6 posted on 04/12/2013 5:59:43 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

AMEN. If you desire to stand before God UNASHAMED as His workman, study His Word of truth, rightly divided. It’s that simple. God said it, not me. :)

8 posted on 04/12/2013 6:07:21 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
More here .
16 posted on 04/12/2013 7:29:34 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
You cherry-pick from the Fathers like an expert!

The same Augustine whom you would like to pretend rejected devotion to Mary wrote the following prayer:

Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with praise and thanks for having rescued a fallen world by your generous consent! Receive our gratitude, and by your prayers obtain the pardon of our sins. Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to make our peace with God. Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God. May all who venerate you feel now your help and protection. Be ready to help us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it your continual concern to pray for the people of God, for you were blessed by God and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, who lives and reigns forever. Amen

20 posted on 04/12/2013 9:39:07 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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