Skip to comments.What do Muslims believe about Abortion? (Robert Spencer: "Not Peace but a Sword")
Posted on 04/15/2013 7:19:13 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
New York Times best-selling author Robert Spencer investigates areas where Christians and Muslims fundamentally disagree.
Do Christians and Muslims agree on the issue of abortion?
Many Christians know they have some theological differences with Muslims, but still look at Islam as a valuable ally in a world increasingly threatened by secularism and immorality. Sure, we may not agree on every detail, they think, but isnt it better to focus on what we have in common, so that we can fight moral and cultural battles together?
This idea may be more popular than ever, but it is a dangerous illusion, says author Robert Spencer in his latest book, Not Peace but a Sword: The Great Chasm Between Christianity and Islam. We may live in an age of dialogue and bridge-building, but the differences between Christianity and Islam are so profoundnot just in religious doctrine but in moral preceptsthat the chances for any meaningful cooperation are slim at best. And the false hope for such cooperation, moreover, puts Christians at a perilous disadvantage in their dealings with followers of the Prophet.
Take, for example, the fight against abortion. At recent United Nations conferences, where the forces of the Culture of Death were pushing their global abortion agenda, attempts by the Vatican and Christian groups to forge a pro-life, pro-family coalition with Muslim nations failed. Why? Because Islam does not view the unborns right to life as absolute and inviolate. As Spencer explains, many of its schools of jurisprudence permit abortion up to various stages of fetal development (based on crude ensoulment theories found in the Quran). And even after those stages, Islam generally does not view abortion as a grave evil tantamount to murder. Accordingly, Muslim scholars discourage cultural or political pro-life activism.
In light of all this, Spencer adds, it is hard to understand why the idea is so widespread among conservative Catholics that Muslims would make good partners for action on life issues. In reality, the Islamic moral schema differs so sharply from the Catholic one that they have hardly any common ground at all.
As this unique and important book explains in detail, abortion isnt the only area where a great chasm divides Christianity and Islam. Similar gulfs exist between their teachings on sexual morality, marriage and divorce, womens rights, and of course (as the plight of oppressed Middle Eastern Christians attests) religious freedom. Our theological differences are likewise not mere quibbles about small details, but fundamental divisions over the nature of God, divine revelation, salvationdivisions that some Christians want to wish away but Muslims never forget, as they proselytize under the guise of interreligious dialogue.
Class, Compare and Contrast.
by Austin Ruse
The 10 p.m. negotiating session was set to go all night long. This was the last night of a two-week process that had been in planning for years before. All the hard things would be decided in the dead of that final night, when everyone was exhausted, the cafeteria was closed, and the translators had all gone home.
I walked out onto the floor of the immense negotiating room in the basement of the United Nations. Concentric half rings of desks cascaded from the front to the back with one hundred and eighty-something national flags arranged alphabetically, and floor-to-ceiling windows 100 feet high overlooking the moonlit East River.
On the negotiating floor, I approached a Muslim ambassador and said, This session is going all night long and its going to be very tough going. And when it gets really hard, I want you to know that right over there, and I pointed to a section of raised seats off to the side, twenty Christians will be praying for you.
That night this man was a tiger in defense of unborn children. The gathered western governments, along with U. N. bureaucrats, hungered for a right to abortion that would require nations to allow for the unrestricted ling of their unborn babies.
He rose time and time again to stop dangerous language from entering into that document. He pounded on his desk. At one point, he even rose in defense of our Christian NGOs who had come under attack from the European Union. As the sun rose, his efforts, our efforts, paid off. An alleged right to abortion was stopped once more.
Many will applaud the result of this meeting and others like it, and those same people will cringe that we accomplish this task with governments that allow the persecution of our co-religionists. It would be good if the coalition of those who support unborn children at the U. N. were broad and vast and deep. It is not.
If only the so-called Christian nations stood with us. It is post-Christian Europe that leads the fight to make abortion the law of the world. Even such solid countries as Poland and Malta go along with Germany, France, and the United Kingdom after the EU takes a common position, which is almost always in favor of the culture of death.
What about Catholic Latin America? There are a number of reasons they are not with us. Their elites long ago sidled up to Europe on the question of abortion. They view abortion practically as a sacrament and also a badge of sophistication. Their governments also do not want to be hectored by U.N. human rights committees who push for a universal right to abortion.
They also tend to throw a bone to their domestic radical feminists and allow them to represent their countries at U.N. negotiations. These governments also do not want to be labeled as part of what the prestige media calls the unholy alliance of the Vatican and the Muslim states. So, Catholic Latin America largely takes a powder on these issues.
Africa? They are so poor they cannot give up even a single dime proffered by the U.N. and the donor nations. Is financial assistance linked to support of the pro-abortion agenda? A few years ago a new diplomat questioned her countrys sponsorship of a resolution. Immediately afterward the lobbyist from the U.N. Population Fund threatened her country with losing financial aid. That is a potent weapon.
I could go on throughout the all the regions of the world and find similar reasons why our pro-life coalition at the U.N. is so small.
Some will say it is not worth protecting the unborn child if we have to make common cause with the Muslim states. Recently, at Andrew Breitbarts Big Peace website, respected columnist Diana West suggested that in working with the Muslims, pro-life Christian NGOs help spread Sharia and radical Islam. She believes that religious persecution is a more important issue than protecting unborn babies from their own holocaust.
Many individuals and groups would agree. They work on religious freedom and ignore the plight of the unborn. That is their right. Groups must choose their mission. But West and, I suspect, others go further. They actually want us to stop our work because the cost is too high if it includes Muslims.
No one knows the yearly global body count owing to abortion. Is it 50 million? The official data say so, but it is likely more; possibly much more. This represents the grossest human rights tragedy of all time and would get exponentially worse if U.N. radicals get their way.
If one were simply adding up columns of death, this column would dwarf all others; all wars, all persecutions, all pogroms, and all final solutions. It is all the more barbaric because these victims have no way to fight back, and nowhere to run.
And we are supposed to stand aside because the Muslims make defending the unborn possible?
We in the U.N. pro-life movement believe we are called to this fight in particular. We applaud those who work on other legitimate human rights issues like religious persecution. But we believe the right to life comes first. It is the right that makes all other rights and freedoms possible including freedom of religion.
We also believe that in our own way we do fight for religious freedom. In working with Muslim diplomats, in becoming friends with them, even by loving them, we believe we are changing hearts and minds. And in our own perhaps mysterious way, we do help our beleaguered brothers and sisters. This commonly misunderstood way is the way of Christ.
Austin Ruse is the President of the New York and Washington, D.C.-based Catholic Family & Human Rights Institute (C-FAM), a research institute that focuses exclusively on international social policy. The opinions expressed here are Mr. Ruses alone and do not necessarily reflect the policies or positions of C-FAM.
No matter what they believe, “taquia” will allow them to appease the infidels . . . that’s why Obambi, a devout mooslim, can endorse murdering newly born Americans and not offend the camel jockey sand-monkeys.
so freedom to choose abortion is among the many freedoms and rights to privacy enjoyed by muslim women?
Muslims honor kill their kids when they’re born. Why would they give a damn about the unborn?
Compare and Contrast
I have yet to see a burqa at a ProLife rally.
This is different than what I assumed.
Is there a difference between Sunni and Shiite muslims on abortion?
You can not form an alliance with this group. They will lie to get you to agree. They despise you and will make a show of cooperating, but they are fundamentally liars.
Sexual Morality -- what morality? the are fine with having girls and boys as sex slaves...
marriage -- more then 1 wife?? IMMORAL to me...
Women's Rights?? When I see a Muslim women in a bikini walking in Mecca, then I'll believe they have rights!!
But they DO view that fathers and husbands have an absolute and inviolate right to control the sexuality of their wives and daughters, so it might be easy to get their support on things like minors requiring parental consent before having an abortion.
My take is that Muslims in general do not have any serious problems with non-Muslims having abortions - we only harm ourselves, we decrease our numbers, and we prove how decadent our culture is, how superior theirs is.
Robert Spence finds Islamic theological opinion inconsistent and contradictory when it comes to the right to life of the conceived child.
Of course, you'll find the same in different strands of Judaism and Christianity: some Orthodox Jews are rather downright pro-life; others (including "Conservative" and "Reform" Jews) consider abortion to be much more negotiable. And I recall that the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights was hosted for decades in the United Methodist building in Washington, DC.)
Austin Ruse, on the other hand, has spent decades with his pro-Life pro-Family NGO battling the International Planned Parenthood pro-abortion, pro-depravity, pro-LGBT crowd at the U.N.; and he has found some of the Islamic countries to be effective, even essential allies. Meanwhile the so-called Christian countries of Europe and elsewhere, including the USA, have let him down disastrously, over and over again.
And MNDude, I've seen a burqa at a prolife rally. Years ago I knew a gal-- a red-headed, blue-eyed convert to Islam --- who used to come to prolife demonstrations in Maryland. She and her Yemeni friends would yell curses (she told me they were curses) --- impressive polysyllabic screams --- at the pro-abort counter-demonstrators.
Hope you’re right. I’d love to see the wave of European Muslims go up against that part of their culture
You might take that up with Austin Ruse, who has found Muslim diplomats in the U.N. to be far more reliable opponents of the International Planned Parenthood Federation, than any of the diplomats from the historically “Christian” countries. Europe, Britain, the U.S. and the Anglosphere generally, are almost invariably pro-global-baby-killing and pro-global-sodomy.
If you think a bikini is an adequate indicator of women’s inherent rights and dignity: well, that tells me a lot, not about rights, but about you.
And when these muslims go home to their countries do they carry on their campaign to stop abortion?
My, aren’t you self-righteous.
(click on map to enlarge Middle East-Northern Africa areas) abortion is largely illegal in Islamic countries.
This is something which is fairly obvious: that female public near-nakedness has no bearing on basic human rights. And as for dignity --- as distinguished from rights per se--- it suggests a general trivialization of sexuality, in our culture, certainly. Perhaps not so in other cultures --- southern Sudan, say, or Burkina Faso --- where most people of both sexes and all ages are generally near-naked.
Even there, it has no correlation with women's rights.
Abortion is ‘’illegal’’ among a culture that that has sex with children, mutilates a woman’s vagina, sells children and women into chattel and sexual slavery? Of course abortion would be illegal among such a bunch sadistic moral idiots.After all, where else are you going to get more children and women for the market? Madame, I once was a liberal and a fierce advocate of abortion on demand at any stage in a pregnancy. That is until my sisters and later my sisters-in-law and my daughter-in-law made their ‘’reproductive choice’’and choose, in some cases having to lie flat on their backs in bed for the last three months with their uterus stapled together so that they could bring life into the world and in the process I became and uncle and a grandfather. Abortion will never cease because we are humans and we are imperfect, I know I certainly am.. I also understand that abortion is a sometimes necessary medical procedure. But the height of infuriating hypocrisy is to listen to a 7th. century cult of death-worshipping troglodytes condemn abortion and who glorify a murdering, demon obsessed pedophile along with a chorus of useful moral idiots is more then I can stand. Hypocrisy certainly is the homage vice pays to virtue. Among other things it smacks of self-righteousness and self-righteousness is just a phony form of respectability.
Of course Muslims don’t care about abortion. It’s not THEIR women having them. Easier to take over the world when you have fewer people to fight.
As for female genital mutilation, most Muslim nations do not practice it (LINK); and in nations (mostly north-east and north-central Africa) where it is common, it is found in specific tribal subcultures regardless of religion (e.g. Muslim and polytheist/animist).
Genital mutilation is done in this country, too, mostly under the auspices of transsexual surgery.
You have not demonstrated where the hypocrisy comes in, with respect to the articles posted. Austin Ruse simply notes, from decades of experience, that many Muslim U.N. diplomats will vote against the Planned Parenthood/abortion/LGBT agenda; most diplomats from historically-Christian nations will not. In fact, it is the post-Christian West which most aggressively promotes abortion and sodomy globally.
Does this say "Islam is great"? No. It says that the baby-killing, gender-twisted program of the post-Christian West is so depraved, that in some cases it's mainly Muslim diplomats who can be counted on to oppose it.
Re-read Austin Ruse for what he does, and does not say..
I think you’re (mostly) right that the Muslims don’t much care if the post-Christian West contracepts, aborts, and buggers itself out of existence.
Unfortunately, they don’t believe in it enough to have aborted themselves out of existence.
Which "they"? Americans? Muslims? The post-Christian West?
Outstanding. Islam was the birth of all modern evil. There is not and has never been, a moderate Islam. Never. Equivocation is cultural suicide. Islam kills, every last human being.
Humble thanks. ‘’Moderate Islam’’. Anyone ever stop and think that if the bloody religion were so peaceful, why then the need for ‘’moderation’’? Wouldn’t that make the argument it isn’t peaceful?
Makes ya wonder, don’t it?
I said you hadn't "demonstrated hypocrisy with respect to the articles posted."
Please try to read whole sentences.
Mr. Ruse's “opinions” notwithstanding, that a few muslims are perhaps our 20% friends and not our 100% enemies is hardly reason to embrace them with open arms or to think that they are our true friends or even our allies.
Islam is Satan's religion. All muslims do gravely objective evil when they practice their verminous, demonic religion.
Like Nazism and Communism, two of Islam's pale imitators, Islam must be eradicated. We shouldn't deceive ourselves in trying to get them to “play nice.”
You’re still not responding to what I actually said, but what you have wildly extrapolated. This conversation is indeed, as you say, over.
I have seen people pro-life rallies self identifying (either by signage or by distinctive garb) as Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Orthodox, Episcopalians, other Protestants, other Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs, and Atheists.
Mr. Ruse's “experiences” are anomalous, and thus lead to poorly-informed opinions. As well, he reads into his "experiences" what he wants to experience, rather than coldly observing what is true.
The muslims are NOT reliable allies. As your initial article points out, muslims are all over the map on the question of abortion, and although most muslims reject homosexual behavior, large numbers of muslim men, especially the powerful ones, especially the ones in the most “traditional” societies, engage in homosexual acts, often as a form of dominating “lesser” men.
Getting in bed with these savages, even on a limited basis, even only to fight abortion and the homosexual agenda, is very dangerous. We should not deceive ourselves that we are making friends with the barbarians, or that we are winning their hearts.
For those who make that foolish, stupid assertion, show me the long line of converts away from the satanic cult of Islam from the ranks of these barbarian diplomats.
Getting in bed with these savages, even on a limited basis, even only to fight abortion and the homosexual agenda, is very dangerous. We should not deceive ourselves that we are making friends with the barbarians, or that we are winning their hearts.
I could not agree more.
No, What I'm saying is that Muslims will stone their Females if they are not properly dressed...I will believe they are for womens rights when they can wear bikinis... not the BERKAS on the beach...
Yes, even here are a famous beach, the Muslims females are wrapped up like a mummy.
I personally think Islam is a demonic system; successfully splitting off members -- and if possible, members of the elite --- is a powerful way to defeat their system.
Who's more likely to contribute to this divinely satisfactory, Christ-pleasing result? You? Me? Or Austin Ruse?
“I can't personally vouch for the number, but here's more than a million results from Google that repeat the claim that 6,000,000 Muslims a year are converting to Christianity (LINK) -— most, apparently, from sub-Saharan Africa.”
Not sure how that's relevant to the conversation. I don't see the folks with whom Austin Ruse is allying in that line of folks. In any case, 6 million folks per year represents about 0.5% of muslims. I'm sure they add more baby muslims than 6 million each year.
“I personally think Islam is a demonic system; successfully splitting off members — and if possible, members of the elite -— is a powerful way to defeat their system.”
You're relating two unrelated things - that a small number of muslims convert each year, and that Austin Ruse thinks he's making “friends” with his muslim buddies in high places. Please show evidence of a relationship between the two. Even more narrowly, please show the muslims with whom Austin Ruse is speaking who have converted.
“Who's more likely to contribute to this divinely satisfactory, Christ-pleasing result? You? Me? Or Austin Ruse?”
In that I haven't said what my own actions might be, it would be difficult to make the comparison.
Frankly, from what history shows me, Islam is best dealt with by the sword. The most Christ-pleasing result, in my mind, would be the elimination of Islam. It's not going to happen because Austin Ruse plays footsies with savages.
What would you tell him to do? Make Planned Parenthood happy and just give up? Or maybe use that "sword" you alluded to, to cut down his most valuable anti-abortion allies?
We've read one of Austin Ruse's success stories. Now I'd love to hear one of yours.
I don't discourage him from working professionally with the muslim barbarians. It's great if he can temporarily get the moral degenerates to work with us on one or two issues (even as they go back to their tribes and rape the women of their enemies, and the men, too, and mutilate their own daughters).
I DO discourage him from playing footsies - i.e., thinking he's making friends and actually persuading the savages to abandon Islam.
“We've read one of Austin Ruse's success stories.”
It is not completely worthless to act at the level where Mr. Ruse is working. Keeping the UN from being more of an atrocity than it is is a marginally-worthwhile activity.
As for my own success, I couldn't tell you. I don't keep score. Don't even try. I just plant seeds.
Remember, there are roughly a billion or so muslims in the world. Very, very few of that number (maybe a few million) live in the United States. The muslim population one finds in the US is likely demographically different than that found in Egypt, or Syria, or Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or Iraq, or Indonesia, or Yemen, or Somalia, or Afghanistan, or Arab-occupied Judea and Samaria...
Some of those who come here are rabid dogs, much of the same mind as their masters back in the old country. Others have come here to escape. Even though they may not fully realize that it is Islam from which they were looking to escape, that is, indeed, what they were doing.
These are the few who might become ex-muslims, and might become civilized human beings.
But nearly all the rest back in Pakistan, Algeria, Libya, and the rest are savages, always have been, always will be; 99.5% of them will die in their satanism. The best we can do is to beat them back with the sword when they venture forth from their hell-holes to make the rest of humanity share their misery.
Thank you, then, for recognizing the value of Austin Ruse’s efforts as well as his successes. We both pray. Let’s pray for more.
Just because someone accidentally does a marginally good thing (hampering the growing evil of the UN) while engaging in a greater evil (deluding himself and others that muslims are anything but moral degenerates and barbarian savages) doesn't quite equal “success.”
But I'll give him credit for trying.
Nonetheless, most of the criticism of Mr. Ruse seems valid to me.
You say in part: “... and he has found some of the Islamic countries to be effective, even essential allies.”
No muslim is an ally of a free person, or of decency. They are, at best, temporary fellow-travelers. They remind me of the “temporary marriages” that they conduct to excuse prostitution and rape, especially of young girls. Their assistance vis-a-vis Mr. Ruse's efforts are little more than tactical actions to allow them to achieve their own purposes, none of which are congruent with our own interests, or anything approaching morality, decency, or true worship of God. Failing to recognize that can be fatal.
I think the part that truly bothers me is that the diplomats from the nations that historically used to be called “Christendom” are -— as public policy and backed by the coercive power of the State -— pro-sodomy and pro-baby-killing to a man. Or to a woman. Or whatever.
It is a difficult adjustment to make, but Pope Benedict XVI was telling us this right through his pontificate - we live in a pagan society run by pagans where Christian belief and practice will no longer occupy a privileged place.
We must think about what it was like to live in the Roman Empire before Catholicism became the preferred religion of the empire. It wasn't all persecution (although at times, the persecutions were fierce). The Church was able to grow and even prosper. The Church became increasingly influential in the empire long before the Edict of Milan. But the Church did not enjoy the privileged place it occupied after it was adopted as the state religion, and especially after Rome began to fall apart, and it was often the Church that caught the falling pieces and maintained any semblance of order.
Yet, during that period, in spite of the great evils of Rome, it was still the best thing going.
So, too, the West, today. It's decadent. It's a shadow of its former self. It is no longer Christendom. It is becoming intolerant of Christianity.
But it is less decadent, less immoral, less evil and less intolerant of Christianity than the great sewage reservoir that is Islam.
The lesson here for the Church is that she, too, must come to grips what it means to have lost her privileged place in western society. It means that she must trust less in "multi-lateral" solutions and "international" diplomacy and law, as these are no longer based in, or even friendly to Catholic moral theology or even natural law.
Calling for global solutions is all well and good when the enforcers of those solutions were an explicitly-Christianized United States, a United Kingdom with a vibrant Christian state religion, and a France that could still be called the Eldest Daughter of the Church without either tears or guffaws for the irony inherent in the statement.
As for Mr. Ruse, one of his fatal flaws is that he thinks because many Islamic countries have laws that look superficially like those previously enjoyed in the West upholding traditional Christian morality that they flow from the same, or similar source. He seems to think that in Islam, he's getting a bargain-shelf version of Christianity and Christian morality. They do not flow from the same source, and he is not getting anything remotely similar to Christianity or Christian morality. They flow strictly from the will to power of the religious elites to control and oppress their satanically-oppressed subjects.
Remember, it was a revered ayatollah of Islam that literally wrote the book on how one might licitly have sex with a chicken, and then licitly cook, butcher, and eat it later.
Their “morality” has nothing to do with Christian morality. To think otherwise is syncretism with a fatal twist.
He just has a tactical opening to try to stop the killing of a couple million babies. And to use a certain Middle Eastern vernacular, that ain't chopped liver.