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What do Muslims believe about Abortion? (Robert Spencer: "Not Peace but a Sword")
Catholic Answers ^ | April15, 2013 | Catholic Answers

Posted on 04/15/2013 7:19:13 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o

New York Times best-selling author Robert Spencer investigates areas where Christians and Muslims fundamentally disagree.

Do Christians and Muslims agree on the issue of abortion?

Many Christians know they have some theological differences with Muslims, but still look at Islam as a valuable ally in a world increasingly threatened by secularism and immorality. Sure, we may not agree on every detail, they think, but isn’t it better to focus on what we have in common, so that we can fight moral and cultural battles together?

This idea may be more popular than ever, but it is a “dangerous illusion,” says author Robert Spencer in his latest book, Not Peace but a Sword: The Great Chasm Between Christianity and Islam. We may live in an age of dialogue and “bridge-building,” but the differences between Christianity and Islam are so profound—not just in religious doctrine but in moral precepts—that the chances for any meaningful cooperation are slim at best. And the false hope for such cooperation, moreover, puts Christians at a perilous disadvantage in their dealings with followers of “the Prophet.”

Take, for example, the fight against abortion. At recent United Nations conferences, where the forces of the Culture of Death were pushing their global abortion agenda, attempts by the Vatican and Christian groups to forge a pro-life, pro-family coalition with Muslim nations failed. Why? Because Islam does not view the unborn’s right to life as absolute and inviolate. As Spencer explains, many of its schools of jurisprudence permit abortion up to various stages of fetal development (based on crude ensoulment theories found in the Qu’ran). And even after those stages, Islam generally does not view abortion as a grave evil tantamount to murder. Accordingly, Muslim scholars discourage cultural or political pro-life activism.

“In light of all this,” Spencer adds, “it is hard to understand why the idea is so widespread among conservative Catholics that Muslims would make good partners for action on life issues. In reality, the Islamic moral schema differs so sharply from the Catholic one that they have hardly any common ground at all.”

As this unique and important book explains in detail, abortion isn’t the only area where a “great chasm” divides Christianity and Islam. Similar gulfs exist between their teachings on sexual morality, marriage and divorce, women’s rights, and of course (as the plight of oppressed Middle Eastern Christians attests) religious freedom. Our theological differences are likewise not mere quibbles about small details, but fundamental divisions over the nature of God, divine revelation, salvation—divisions that some Christians want to wish away but Muslims never forget, as they proselytize under the guise of “interreligious dialogue.”


TOPICS: Current Events; Islam; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: abortion; cyltureofdeath; dhimmitude; dialogue; islam
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I'm putting these two wonderful thinkers together: Robert Spencer, a Melkite Catholic and founder of Jihad Watch (LINK), and Austin Ruse of C-Fam (LINK),, the Catholic Family and Human Rights Institute. They both have vast experience on the topic of working with the Muslims.

Class, Compare and Contrast.


Working with the Muslims

by Austin Ruse

http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/working-with-the-muslims.html

The 10 p.m. negotiating session was set to go all night long. This was the last night of a two-week process that had been in planning for years before. All the hard things would be decided in the dead of that final night, when everyone was exhausted, the cafeteria was closed, and the translators had all gone home.

I walked out onto the floor of the immense negotiating room in the basement of the United Nations. Concentric half rings of desks cascaded from the front to the back with one hundred and eighty-something national “flags” arranged alphabetically, and floor-to-ceiling windows 100 feet high overlooking the moonlit East River.

On the negotiating floor, I approached a Muslim ambassador and said, “This session is going all night long and its going to be very tough going. And when it gets really hard, I want you to know that right over there,” and I pointed to a section of raised seats off to the side, “twenty Christians will be praying for you.”

That night this man was a tiger in defense of unborn children. The gathered western governments, along with U. N. bureaucrats, hungered for a right to abortion that would require nations to allow for the unrestricted ling of their unborn babies.

He rose time and time again to stop dangerous language from entering into that document. He pounded on his desk. At one point, he even rose in defense of our Christian NGOs who had come under attack from the European Union. As the sun rose, his efforts, our efforts, paid off. An alleged right to abortion was stopped once more.

Many will applaud the result of this meeting and others like it, and those same people will cringe that we accomplish this task with governments that allow the persecution of our co-religionists. It would be good if the coalition of those who support unborn children at the U. N. were broad and vast and deep. It is not.

If only the so-called Christian nations stood with us. It is post-Christian Europe that leads the fight to make abortion the law of the world. Even such solid countries as Poland and Malta go along with Germany, France, and the United Kingdom after the EU takes a common position, which is almost always in favor of the culture of death.

What about Catholic Latin America? There are a number of reasons they are not with us. Their elites long ago sidled up to Europe on the question of abortion. They view abortion practically as a sacrament and also a badge of sophistication. Their governments also do not want to be hectored by U.N. “human rights” committees who push for a universal right to abortion.

They also tend to throw a bone to their domestic radical feminists and allow them to represent their countries at U.N. negotiations. These governments also do not want to be labeled as part of what the prestige media calls the “unholy alliance” of the Vatican and the Muslim states. So, Catholic Latin America largely takes a powder on these issues.

Africa? They are so poor they cannot give up even a single dime proffered by the U.N. and the donor nations. Is financial assistance linked to support of the pro-abortion agenda? A few years ago a new diplomat questioned her country’s sponsorship of a resolution. Immediately afterward the lobbyist from the U.N. Population Fund threatened her country with losing financial aid. That is a potent weapon.

I could go on throughout the all the regions of the world and find similar reasons why our pro-life coalition at the U.N. is so small.

Some will say it is not worth protecting the unborn child if we have to make common cause with the Muslim states. Recently, at Andrew Breitbart’s “Big Peace” website, respected columnist Diana West suggested that in working with the Muslims, pro-life Christian NGOs help spread Sharia and radical Islam. She believes that religious persecution is a more important issue than protecting unborn babies from their own holocaust.

Many individuals and groups would agree. They work on religious freedom and ignore the plight of the unborn. That is their right. Groups must choose their mission. But West and, I suspect, others go further. They actually want us to stop our work because the cost is too high if it includes Muslims.

No one knows the yearly global body count owing to abortion. Is it 50 million? The “official” data say so, but it is likely more; possibly much more. This represents the grossest human rights tragedy of all time and would get exponentially worse if U.N. radicals get their way.

If one were simply adding up columns of death, this column would dwarf all others; all wars, all persecutions, all pogroms, and all final solutions. It is all the more barbaric because these victims have no way to fight back, and nowhere to run.

And we are supposed to stand aside because the Muslims make defending the unborn possible?

We in the U.N. pro-life movement believe we are called to this fight in particular. We applaud those who work on other legitimate human rights issues like religious persecution. But we believe the right to life comes first. It is the right that makes all other rights and freedoms possible including freedom of religion.

We also believe that in our own way we do fight for religious freedom. In working with Muslim diplomats, in becoming friends with them, even by loving them, we believe we are changing hearts and minds. And in our own – perhaps mysterious – way, we do help our beleaguered brothers and sisters. This commonly misunderstood way is the way of Christ.


Austin Ruse is the President of the New York and Washington, D.C.-based Catholic Family & Human Rights Institute (C-FAM), a research institute that focuses exclusively on international social policy. The opinions expressed here are Mr. Ruse’s alone and do not necessarily reflect the policies or positions of C-FAM.

1 posted on 04/15/2013 7:19:14 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: Mrs. Don-o

No matter what they believe, “taquia” will allow them to appease the infidels . . . that’s why Obambi, a devout mooslim, can endorse murdering newly born Americans and not offend the camel jockey sand-monkeys.


2 posted on 04/15/2013 7:23:38 AM PDT by laweeks
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To: Mrs. Don-o

so freedom to choose abortion is among the many freedoms and rights to privacy enjoyed by muslim women?

who knew


3 posted on 04/15/2013 7:25:54 AM PDT by silverleaf (Age Takes a Toll: Please Have Exact Change)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Muslims honor kill their kids when they’re born. Why would they give a damn about the unborn?


4 posted on 04/15/2013 7:26:57 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: don-o; seekthetruth; Iron Munro; AuntB; Jane Long; Boogieman; MinuteGal; newfreep; karnage; ...

Compare and Contrast


5 posted on 04/15/2013 7:29:01 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I have yet to see a burqa at a ProLife rally.


6 posted on 04/15/2013 7:29:10 AM PDT by MNDude (Have you ever noticed how many hate filled atheists there are on the Internet?)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Thanks

This is different than what I assumed.
Is there a difference between Sunni and Shiite muslims on abortion?


7 posted on 04/15/2013 7:35:41 AM PDT by kidd
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Bump


8 posted on 04/15/2013 7:38:17 AM PDT by Incorrigible (If I lead, follow me; If I pause, push me; If I retreat, kill me.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

You can not form an alliance with this group. They will lie to get you to agree. They despise you and will make a show of cooperating, but they are fundamentally liars.


9 posted on 04/15/2013 8:19:39 AM PDT by I want the USA back (Pi$$ed off yet?)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Similar gulfs exist between their teachings on sexual morality, marriage and divorce, women’s rights,

Sexual Morality -- what morality? the are fine with having girls and boys as sex slaves...

marriage -- more then 1 wife?? IMMORAL to me...

Women's Rights?? When I see a Muslim women in a bikini walking in Mecca, then I'll believe they have rights!!

10 posted on 04/15/2013 8:20:01 AM PDT by ExCTCitizen (Rand Paul/Ben Carson should be the 2016 Ticket!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Take, for example, the fight against abortion. At recent United Nations conferences, where the forces of the Culture of Death were pushing their global abortion agenda, attempts by the Vatican and Christian groups to forge a pro-life, pro-family coalition with Muslim nations failed. Why? Because Islam does not view the unborn’s right to life as absolute and inviolate.

But they DO view that fathers and husbands have an absolute and inviolate right to control the sexuality of their wives and daughters, so it might be easy to get their support on things like minors requiring parental consent before having an abortion.

11 posted on 04/15/2013 9:37:13 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

My take is that Muslims in general do not have any serious problems with non-Muslims having abortions - we only harm ourselves, we decrease our numbers, and we prove how decadent our culture is, how superior theirs is.


12 posted on 04/15/2013 9:39:30 AM PDT by heartwood
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To: silverleaf; MNDude; kidd
That's the contrast between these two articles.

Robert Spence finds Islamic theological opinion inconsistent and contradictory when it comes to the right to life of the conceived child.

Of course, you'll find the same in different strands of Judaism and Christianity: some Orthodox Jews are rather downright pro-life; others (including "Conservative" and "Reform" Jews) consider abortion to be much more negotiable. And I recall that the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights was hosted for decades in the United Methodist building in Washington, DC.)

Austin Ruse, on the other hand, has spent decades with his pro-Life pro-Family NGO battling the International Planned Parenthood pro-abortion, pro-depravity, pro-LGBT crowd at the U.N.; and he has found some of the Islamic countries to be effective, even essential allies. Meanwhile the so-called Christian countries of Europe and elsewhere, including the USA, have let him down disastrously, over and over again.

And MNDude, I've seen a burqa at a prolife rally. Years ago I knew a gal-- a red-headed, blue-eyed convert to Islam --- who used to come to prolife demonstrations in Maryland. She and her Yemeni friends would yell curses (she told me they were curses) --- impressive polysyllabic screams --- at the pro-abort counter-demonstrators.

13 posted on 04/15/2013 10:52:10 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Hope you’re right. I’d love to see the wave of European Muslims go up against that part of their culture


14 posted on 04/15/2013 10:55:26 AM PDT by MNDude (Have you ever noticed how many hate filled atheists there are on the Internet?)
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To: kidd
I don't know whether this particular split is between Shiite and Sunni. I know there are all kinds of different strands of Islam, many of them grouped around different preachers, prayer leaders or imams. Since they've got no Catechism, no "Ecumenical Councils," and no Pope, they don't have a whole lot of internal definition and cohesion doctrine-wise.
15 posted on 04/15/2013 10:57:36 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: I want the USA back

You might take that up with Austin Ruse, who has found Muslim diplomats in the U.N. to be far more reliable opponents of the International Planned Parenthood Federation, than any of the diplomats from the historically “Christian” countries. Europe, Britain, the U.S. and the Anglosphere generally, are almost invariably pro-global-baby-killing and pro-global-sodomy.


16 posted on 04/15/2013 11:00:59 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: ExCTCitizen

If you think a bikini is an adequate indicator of women’s inherent rights and dignity: well, that tells me a lot, not about rights, but about you.


17 posted on 04/15/2013 11:02:30 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

And when these muslims go home to their countries do they carry on their campaign to stop abortion?


18 posted on 04/15/2013 12:16:59 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

My, aren’t you self-righteous.


19 posted on 04/15/2013 12:18:28 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa
As you can see,

http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/

(click on map to enlarge Middle East-Northern Africa areas) abortion is largely illegal in Islamic countries.

20 posted on 04/15/2013 12:34:24 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: jmacusa
No, actually, that's not self-righteous. Self-righteousness necessarily requires some reference to one's own virtue. There is no such reference there.

This is something which is fairly obvious: that female public near-nakedness has no bearing on basic human rights. And as for dignity --- as distinguished from rights per se--- it suggests a general trivialization of sexuality, in our culture, certainly. Perhaps not so in other cultures --- southern Sudan, say, or Burkina Faso --- where most people of both sexes and all ages are generally near-naked.

Even there, it has no correlation with women's rights.

21 posted on 04/15/2013 12:44:46 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Abortion is ‘’illegal’’ among a culture that that has sex with children, mutilates a woman’s vagina, sells children and women into chattel and sexual slavery? Of course abortion would be illegal among such a bunch sadistic moral idiots.After all, where else are you going to get more children and women for the market? Madame, I once was a liberal and a fierce advocate of abortion on demand at any stage in a pregnancy. That is until my sisters and later my sisters-in-law and my daughter-in-law made their ‘’reproductive choice’’and choose, in some cases having to lie flat on their backs in bed for the last three months with their uterus stapled together so that they could bring life into the world and in the process I became and uncle and a grandfather. Abortion will never cease because we are humans and we are imperfect, I know I certainly am.. I also understand that abortion is a sometimes necessary medical procedure. But the height of infuriating hypocrisy is to listen to a 7th. century cult of death-worshipping troglodytes condemn abortion and who glorify a murdering, demon obsessed pedophile along with a chorus of useful moral idiots is more then I can stand. Hypocrisy certainly is the homage vice pays to virtue. Among other things it smacks of self-righteousness and self-righteousness is just a phony form of respectability.


22 posted on 04/15/2013 1:01:52 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Of course Muslims don’t care about abortion. It’s not THEIR women having them. Easier to take over the world when you have fewer people to fight.


23 posted on 04/15/2013 1:24:59 PM PDT by MEGoody (You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: jmacusa
jmacusa, I know very well that Mohammad was a bloody-handed warlord, a pedophile, a lecher, a slave-trader, and either a knowing, intentional religious charlatan or demon-possessed (it's always possible he was both.)

As for female genital mutilation, most Muslim nations do not practice it (LINK); and in nations (mostly north-east and north-central Africa) where it is common, it is found in specific tribal subcultures regardless of religion (e.g. Muslim and polytheist/animist).

Genital mutilation is done in this country, too, mostly under the auspices of transsexual surgery.

You have not demonstrated where the hypocrisy comes in, with respect to the articles posted. Austin Ruse simply notes, from decades of experience, that many Muslim U.N. diplomats will vote against the Planned Parenthood/abortion/LGBT agenda; most diplomats from historically-Christian nations will not. In fact, it is the post-Christian West which most aggressively promotes abortion and sodomy globally.

Does this say "Islam is great"? No. It says that the baby-killing, gender-twisted program of the post-Christian West is so depraved, that in some cases it's mainly Muslim diplomats who can be counted on to oppose it.

Re-read Austin Ruse for what he does, and does not say..

24 posted on 04/15/2013 1:42:38 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: MEGoody

I think you’re (mostly) right that the Muslims don’t much care if the post-Christian West contracepts, aborts, and buggers itself out of existence.


25 posted on 04/15/2013 1:44:04 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Unfortunately, they don’t believe in it enough to have aborted themselves out of existence.


26 posted on 04/15/2013 3:04:57 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: onedoug
Unfortunately, they don’t believe in it enough to have aborted themselves out of existence.

Which "they"? Americans? Muslims? The post-Christian West?

27 posted on 04/15/2013 3:21:27 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Haven't demonstrated the hypocrisy? Are you serious? The hypocrisy of this religion is that for fourteen centuries these Bronze Age barbarians have cut great swathes of war,murder and mayhem across the universe of time and always it cries out as that it's victim . Blaming Christians and Jews of the same mayhem it's visits on so many others unfortunate to suffer ‘’Islams bloody borders’’ as one historian calls it. Do you really think that a belief system based on the teachings and pronouncement's of a rabid misanthropic Arabian bed bug a model for any people who would want to live in the modern world? Islam tolerates nothing from non-muslims and reserves unto it's self the right to abide by it's own laws and customs in other peoples countries.It has never bought anything new into the world, it's the “L'Enfant Terrible;; soiling itself and flinging it's ejecta at the world. Islam is a crude religion for barbaric people. Your attempt at moral equivocation to say other religions/cultures engage in this practice sounds highly suspect to me. But that ‘’most muslim nations do not it to me sounds as ludicrous as Nazis would have said ‘’Well at least we didn't gas dogs’’. Genital mutilation as a sex change is a transmutation of one gender into another ostensibly so said person can enjoy some kind of intimate closeness not be be deprived of it as is the purpose of muslim genital. It's easy to understand why muslims would be opposed to abortion,every muslim male born child is either a potential suicide bomber , jihadi or toy in some sheiks harem and every female born child suffers much the same fate. Worthless bastards all of them.And as an aside Madame you'll find here at Free Republic, if you haven't noticed already , we're not very ‘’muslim friendly here. With all due respect, myself and my fellow Freepers take exception at a bunch mental and moral pygmies crashing planes into buildings here.
28 posted on 04/15/2013 11:09:43 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa

Outstanding. Islam was the birth of all modern evil. There is not and has never been, a moderate Islam. Never. Equivocation is cultural suicide. Islam kills, every last human being.


29 posted on 04/15/2013 11:42:03 PM PDT by RedHeeler
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To: RedHeeler

Humble thanks. ‘’Moderate Islam’’. Anyone ever stop and think that if the bloody religion were so peaceful, why then the need for ‘’moderation’’? Wouldn’t that make the argument it isn’t peaceful?


30 posted on 04/15/2013 11:45:33 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa

Makes ya wonder, don’t it?


31 posted on 04/16/2013 12:32:19 AM PDT by RedHeeler
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To: jmacusa
I didn't say Islam hadn't demonstrated hypocrisy.

I said you hadn't "demonstrated hypocrisy with respect to the articles posted."

Please try to read whole sentences.

32 posted on 04/16/2013 4:39:37 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Dear Mrs. Don-o,

Mr. Ruse's “opinions” notwithstanding, that a few muslims are perhaps our 20% friends and not our 100% enemies is hardly reason to embrace them with open arms or to think that they are our true friends or even our allies.

Islam is Satan's religion. All muslims do gravely objective evil when they practice their verminous, demonic religion.

Like Nazism and Communism, two of Islam's pale imitators, Islam must be eradicated. We shouldn't deceive ourselves in trying to get them to “play nice.”


sitetest

33 posted on 04/16/2013 5:05:44 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
You asked for hypocrisy and I gave to you. Another poster here has seen it. ''Try reading whole sentences''. Don't you attempt to insult or lecture to me Madame, I havn' t done that to you. As I see it all you're doing is equivocating and rationalizing all over the place in addition to sounding much like a shill for this abomination called Islam. And point of fact is I don't give a rats behind for muslim delegates at the UN and their phony displays of sincerity and moral concern. They represent the belief that would push every Israeli into the Mediterranean and cut the head off of every other one of rest of us.It infuriates me to no end to see a world that knows what a monster Mohammed was and yet venerates his followers. That's akin to knowing what a monster Adolph Hitler was but venerating his followers. They're putting on an act even a blind man could see. They're here in my country and showing us infidels one face but when they leave here and go home they speak from the either side of their face. It's what they do as their Prophet tells them to. As I've stated we Freepers know what these caravan raiding desert demons are all about and I for one hate the fact that when I'm gone my grandchildren more than likely will be having their own problems with them. Their fourteen centuries long track record is proof of that. This whole argument is becoming tedious and boring .’’Try reading whole sentences’’. Indeed. Try finding some manners and an intellect to go with it. This conversation is over, enough.
34 posted on 04/16/2013 6:58:35 AM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: sitetest
I'm not making any recommendation of a tour-court alliance with Muslims. I'm just pointing out that Austin Ruse's experience (not just "opinion") is that on matters concerning the global-abortionist and LGBT agenda, they are the only reliable allies he has. And the historically "Christian" nations--- their diplomats, anyway--- are on the other side.
35 posted on 04/16/2013 7:07:56 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: jmacusa

You’re still not responding to what I actually said, but what you have wildly extrapolated. This conversation is indeed, as you say, over.


36 posted on 04/16/2013 7:10:58 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: MNDude
I have yet to see a burqa at a ProLife rally.

I have seen people pro-life rallies self identifying (either by signage or by distinctive garb) as Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Orthodox, Episcopalians, other Protestants, other Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs, and Atheists.

No mohammedans.

37 posted on 04/16/2013 7:13:12 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Dear Mrs. Don-o,

Mr. Ruse's “experiences” are anomalous, and thus lead to poorly-informed opinions. As well, he reads into his "experiences" what he wants to experience, rather than coldly observing what is true.

The muslims are NOT reliable allies. As your initial article points out, muslims are all over the map on the question of abortion, and although most muslims reject homosexual behavior, large numbers of muslim men, especially the powerful ones, especially the ones in the most “traditional” societies, engage in homosexual acts, often as a form of dominating “lesser” men.

Getting in bed with these savages, even on a limited basis, even only to fight abortion and the homosexual agenda, is very dangerous. We should not deceive ourselves that we are making friends with the barbarians, or that we are winning their hearts.

For those who make that foolish, stupid assertion, show me the long line of converts away from the satanic cult of Islam from the ranks of these barbarian diplomats.


sitetest

38 posted on 04/16/2013 7:24:08 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest
The muslims are NOT reliable allies. As your initial article points out, muslims are all over the map on the question of abortion, and although most muslims reject homosexual behavior, large numbers of muslim men, especially the powerful ones, especially the ones in the most “traditional” societies, engage in homosexual acts, often as a form of dominating “lesser” men.

Getting in bed with these savages, even on a limited basis, even only to fight abortion and the homosexual agenda, is very dangerous. We should not deceive ourselves that we are making friends with the barbarians, or that we are winning their hearts.

***********************************

I could not agree more.

39 posted on 04/16/2013 7:28:17 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
If you think a bikini is an adequate indicator of women’s inherent rights and dignity: well, that tells me a lot, not about rights, but about you.

No, What I'm saying is that Muslims will stone their Females if they are not properly dressed...I will believe they are for womens rights when they can wear bikinis... not the BERKAS on the beach...

Yes, even here are a famous beach, the Muslims females are wrapped up like a mummy.

40 posted on 04/16/2013 7:34:06 AM PDT by ExCTCitizen (Rand Paul/Ben Carson should be the 2016 Ticket!)
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To: sitetest
I can't personally vouch for the number, but here's more than a million results from Google that repeat the claim that 6,000,000 Muslims a year are converting to Christianity (LINK) --- most, apparently, from sub-Saharan Africa.

I personally think Islam is a demonic system; successfully splitting off members -- and if possible, members of the elite --- is a powerful way to defeat their system.

Who's more likely to contribute to this divinely satisfactory, Christ-pleasing result? You? Me? Or Austin Ruse?

41 posted on 04/16/2013 7:38:36 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: ExCTCitizen
I see what you mean. I read about a YWCA indoor lap pool in, I don't know, Michigan? --- where a group of Muslim women rented the site for 2 hours a week, put cardboard over all the windows, and went swimming still dressed in long garb. Presumably garb of some non-absorbent fabric so that they wouldn't instantly get waterlogged and pulled to the bottom, but yes, they were still totally covered: from neck to ankles, their hair, their throats, and their arms down to the wrists.

Un-be-liev-able.

42 posted on 04/16/2013 7:46:00 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Dear Mrs. Don-o,

“I can't personally vouch for the number, but here's more than a million results from Google that repeat the claim that 6,000,000 Muslims a year are converting to Christianity (LINK) -— most, apparently, from sub-Saharan Africa.”

Not sure how that's relevant to the conversation. I don't see the folks with whom Austin Ruse is allying in that line of folks. In any case, 6 million folks per year represents about 0.5% of muslims. I'm sure they add more baby muslims than 6 million each year.

“I personally think Islam is a demonic system; successfully splitting off members — and if possible, members of the elite -— is a powerful way to defeat their system.”

You're relating two unrelated things - that a small number of muslims convert each year, and that Austin Ruse thinks he's making “friends” with his muslim buddies in high places. Please show evidence of a relationship between the two. Even more narrowly, please show the muslims with whom Austin Ruse is speaking who have converted.

“Who's more likely to contribute to this divinely satisfactory, Christ-pleasing result? You? Me? Or Austin Ruse?”

In that I haven't said what my own actions might be, it would be difficult to make the comparison.

Frankly, from what history shows me, Islam is best dealt with by the sword. The most Christ-pleasing result, in my mind, would be the elimination of Islam. It's not going to happen because Austin Ruse plays footsies with savages.


sitetest

43 posted on 04/16/2013 11:12:53 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest
It's unfair to say "Austin Ruse plays footsie with the savages" when what Austin Ruse is actually doing at the U.N. is, against huge odds, successfully blocking the global abortion/global-LGBT savages. Some key Muslim diplomats are helping him do it.

What would you tell him to do? Make Planned Parenthood happy and just give up? Or maybe use that "sword" you alluded to, to cut down his most valuable anti-abortion allies?

We've read one of Austin Ruse's success stories. Now I'd love to hear one of yours.

44 posted on 04/16/2013 11:46:54 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Dies irae, Dies illa, / Solvet saeclum in favilla / Teste David et Sybilla.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Dear Mrs. Don-o,

I don't discourage him from working professionally with the muslim barbarians. It's great if he can temporarily get the moral degenerates to work with us on one or two issues (even as they go back to their tribes and rape the women of their enemies, and the men, too, and mutilate their own daughters).

I DO discourage him from playing footsies - i.e., thinking he's making friends and actually persuading the savages to abandon Islam.

“We've read one of Austin Ruse's success stories.”

It is not completely worthless to act at the level where Mr. Ruse is working. Keeping the UN from being more of an atrocity than it is is a marginally-worthwhile activity.

As for my own success, I couldn't tell you. I don't keep score. Don't even try. I just plant seeds.

Remember, there are roughly a billion or so muslims in the world. Very, very few of that number (maybe a few million) live in the United States. The muslim population one finds in the US is likely demographically different than that found in Egypt, or Syria, or Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or Iraq, or Indonesia, or Yemen, or Somalia, or Afghanistan, or Arab-occupied Judea and Samaria...

Some of those who come here are rabid dogs, much of the same mind as their masters back in the old country. Others have come here to escape. Even though they may not fully realize that it is Islam from which they were looking to escape, that is, indeed, what they were doing.

These are the few who might become ex-muslims, and might become civilized human beings.

But nearly all the rest back in Pakistan, Algeria, Libya, and the rest are savages, always have been, always will be; 99.5% of them will die in their satanism. The best we can do is to beat them back with the sword when they venture forth from their hell-holes to make the rest of humanity share their misery.


sitetest

45 posted on 04/16/2013 12:48:15 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

Thank you, then, for recognizing the value of Austin Ruse’s efforts as well as his successes. We both pray. Let’s pray for more.


46 posted on 04/16/2013 1:11:07 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("All the way to heaven is heaven, because Christ said, 'I am the Way.'" - St. Catherine of Siena)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Dear Mrs. Don-o,

Just because someone accidentally does a marginally good thing (hampering the growing evil of the UN) while engaging in a greater evil (deluding himself and others that muslims are anything but moral degenerates and barbarian savages) doesn't quite equal “success.”

But I'll give him credit for trying.

Nonetheless, most of the criticism of Mr. Ruse seems valid to me.

You say in part: “... and he has found some of the Islamic countries to be effective, even essential allies.”

No muslim is an ally of a free person, or of decency. They are, at best, temporary fellow-travelers. They remind me of the “temporary marriages” that they conduct to excuse prostitution and rape, especially of young girls. Their assistance vis-a-vis Mr. Ruse's efforts are little more than tactical actions to allow them to achieve their own purposes, none of which are congruent with our own interests, or anything approaching morality, decency, or true worship of God. Failing to recognize that can be fatal.


sitetest

47 posted on 04/16/2013 1:23:42 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

I think the part that truly bothers me is that the diplomats from the nations that historically used to be called “Christendom” are -— as public policy and backed by the coercive power of the State -— pro-sodomy and pro-baby-killing to a man. Or to a woman. Or whatever.


48 posted on 04/16/2013 1:39:12 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("All the way to heaven is heaven, because Christ said, 'I am the Way.'" - St. Catherine of Siena)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Dear Mrs. Don-o,

It is a difficult adjustment to make, but Pope Benedict XVI was telling us this right through his pontificate - we live in a pagan society run by pagans where Christian belief and practice will no longer occupy a privileged place.

We must think about what it was like to live in the Roman Empire before Catholicism became the preferred religion of the empire. It wasn't all persecution (although at times, the persecutions were fierce). The Church was able to grow and even prosper. The Church became increasingly influential in the empire long before the Edict of Milan. But the Church did not enjoy the privileged place it occupied after it was adopted as the state religion, and especially after Rome began to fall apart, and it was often the Church that caught the falling pieces and maintained any semblance of order.

Yet, during that period, in spite of the great evils of Rome, it was still the best thing going.

So, too, the West, today. It's decadent. It's a shadow of its former self. It is no longer Christendom. It is becoming intolerant of Christianity.

But it is less decadent, less immoral, less evil and less intolerant of Christianity than the great sewage reservoir that is Islam.

The lesson here for the Church is that she, too, must come to grips what it means to have lost her privileged place in western society. It means that she must trust less in "multi-lateral" solutions and "international" diplomacy and law, as these are no longer based in, or even friendly to Catholic moral theology or even natural law.

Calling for global solutions is all well and good when the enforcers of those solutions were an explicitly-Christianized United States, a United Kingdom with a vibrant Christian state religion, and a France that could still be called the Eldest Daughter of the Church without either tears or guffaws for the irony inherent in the statement.

As for Mr. Ruse, one of his fatal flaws is that he thinks because many Islamic countries have laws that look superficially like those previously enjoyed in the West upholding traditional Christian morality that they flow from the same, or similar source. He seems to think that in Islam, he's getting a bargain-shelf version of Christianity and Christian morality. They do not flow from the same source, and he is not getting anything remotely similar to Christianity or Christian morality. They flow strictly from the will to power of the religious elites to control and oppress their satanically-oppressed subjects.

Remember, it was a revered ayatollah of Islam that literally wrote the book on how one might licitly have sex with a chicken, and then licitly cook, butcher, and eat it later.

Their “morality” has nothing to do with Christian morality. To think otherwise is syncretism with a fatal twist.


sitetest

49 posted on 04/16/2013 2:07:50 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest
I can't speak for Austin Ruse, of course, but I don't think there's a word in this last post of yours that Mr. Ruse would disagree with. He's not a syncretist in the least. He is excruciatingly familiar with the persecution and murder of Christians by Islamists, and the inherent brutal irrationalities of what passes for Islamist moral theology.

He just has a tactical opening to try to stop the killing of a couple million babies. And to use a certain Middle Eastern vernacular, that ain't chopped liver.

50 posted on 04/16/2013 2:28:12 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("All the way to heaven is heaven, because Christ said, 'I am the Way.'" - St. Catherine of Siena)
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