Posted on 04/22/2013 8:27:35 PM PDT by Salvation
| Polycarp | Matthew | |
|---|---|---|
2:3 |
"Judge not, that you be not judged; forgive and you will be forgiven; be merciful, that you may be shown mercy; the measure you give will be the measure you get" .... |
7:1,2 |
7:2 |
... "to lead us not into temptation"... |
6:13 |
7:2 |
... "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak". |
26:14 |
12:3 |
... "for those who persecute and hate you" |
5:44 |
| Polycarp | Mark | |
|---|---|---|
5:2 |
.... "a servant of all".... |
9:35 |
| Polycarp | Luke | |
|---|---|---|
2:3 |
.... "blessed are the poor and those persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of God". |
6:20 |
| Polycarp | Acts | |
|---|---|---|
1:2 |
... "whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of Hades". |
2:24 |
2:1 |
.... "judge of the living and the dead",... |
10:42 |
| Polycarp | Romans | |
|---|---|---|
6:2 |
... "everyone shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ and each of us shall give an account of himself". |
14:10,12 |
| Polycarp | I Corinthians | |
|---|---|---|
4:3 |
... "the secrets of the heart". |
14:25 |
5:3 |
... "neither fornicators nor the effeminate nor homosexuals will inherit the Kingdom of God", ... |
6:9,10 |
10:1 |
... "steadfast and immovable" ... |
15:58 |
11:3 |
... "do we not know that the saints will judge the world", as Paul teaches? |
6:2 |
| Polycarp | II Corinthians | |
|---|---|---|
2:2 |
For "he who raised him from the dead will raise us also", ... |
4:14 |
4:1 |
... let us arm ourselves "with the weapons of righteousness", ... |
6:7 |
6:1 |
...but "always taking thought for what is honorable in the sight of God and men" ... |
8:21 |
10:1 |
...in "the gentleness of the Lord preferring one another", and despising no one. |
10:1 |
| Polycarp | Galatians | |
|---|---|---|
3:3 |
... -- "which is a mother of us all", ... |
4:26 |
5:1 |
... "God is not mocked", ... |
6:7 |
12:3 |
...and in "his Father who raised him from the dead". |
1:1 |
| Polycarp | Ephesians | |
|---|---|---|
1:3 |
... "you are saved by grace, not because of works", ... |
2:5,8,9 |
3:1 |
... "the word of truth". |
1:13 |
12:1 |
... as it is said in these Scriptures "be angry but sin not" and "let not the sun go down on your anger". |
4:26 |
12:3 |
"Pray for all the saints" . |
6:18 |
| Polycarp | Philippians | |
|---|---|---|
2:1 |
... "to whom he subjected all things, whether in heaven or on earth", ... |
3:21 |
9:1 |
... "did not run in vain",.. |
2:16 |
12:3 |
... "the enemies of the cross",.. |
3:18 |
| Polycarp | I Thessalonians | |
|---|---|---|
11:2 |
"Shun evil of every kind" . |
5:22 |
| Polycarp | II Thessalonians | |
|---|---|---|
11:4 |
... "do not consider such persons as enemies",... |
3:15 |
| Polycarp | I Timothy | |
|---|---|---|
4:1 |
But "the love of money is the beginning of all evils". |
6:10 |
4:1 |
... "we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out", ... |
6:7 |
12:3 |
"Pray also for emperors and magistrates and rulers" , ... |
2:1 |
| Polycarp | II Timothy | |
|---|---|---|
5:2 |
... "we shall also reign with him"... |
2:12 |
9:2 |
For they "loved not this present world", ... |
4:10 |
11:4 |
"May the Lord grant them true repentance" . |
2:25 |
| Polycarp | Hebrews | |
|---|---|---|
6:3 |
So then let us "serve him with fear and all reverence", ... |
12:28 |
12:2 |
May God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and "the eternal High Priest" himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness ... |
6:20, 7:3 |
| Polycarp | I Peter | |
|---|---|---|
1:3 |
In him, "though you have not seen him, you believe with inexpressible and exalted joy", -- ... |
1:8,12 |
2:1 |
"Therefore, girding your loins, serve God in fear" ... |
1:13 |
2:1 |
... "believing on him who raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead and gave him glory" ... |
1:21 |
2:2 |
... "not returning evil for evil or abuse for abuse", ... |
3:9 |
5:3 |
... "every passion of the flesh wages war against the Spirit", ... |
2:11 |
7:2 |
... "watching unto prayer" ... |
4:7 |
8:1 |
... "who bore our sins in his own body on the tree, who committed no sin, neither was guile found on his lips".... |
2:24 |
10:1 |
... "loving the brotherhood".... |
2:17 |
10:1 |
... "cherishing one another".... |
3:8 |
| Polycarp | I John | |
|---|---|---|
7:1 |
For "whosoever does not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is antichrist", and whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross "is of the devil"; ... |
4:2,3 |
| Polycarp | III John | |
|---|---|---|
10:1 |
... "fellow companions in the truth"; ... |
1:8 |
What you are citing is, in fact, oral tradition! Polycarp and Irenaeus learned the faith from the Apostle John.
From the Letter of Irenaeus (a student of Polycarp's) to Florinus:
For I have a more vivid recollection of what occurred at that time than of recent events (inasmuch as the experiences of childhood, keeping pace with the growth of the soul, become incorporated with it); so that I can even describe the place where the blessed Polycarp used to sit and discourse— his going out, too, and his coming in— his general mode of life and personal appearance, together with the discourses which he delivered to the people; also how he would speak of his familiar intercourse with John, and with the rest of those who had seen the Lord; and how he would call their words to remembrance. Whatsoever things he had heard from them respecting the Lord, both with regard to His miracles and His teaching, Polycarp having thus received [information] from the eye-witnesses of the Word of life, would recount them all in harmony with the Scriptures. These things, through, God's mercy which was upon me, I then listened to attentively, and treasured them up not on paper, but in my heart; and I am continually, by God's grace, revolving these things accurately in my mind.
Ref
You just made my point that scripture was transmitted orally, not in writing.
“What you are citing is, in fact, oral tradition! Polycarp and Irenaeus learned the faith from the Apostle John.”
Ridiculous. Polycarp was born a few years after all of the Apostles, save John, had already passed away. So, how did Polycarp hear the “oral tradition” of an epistle from Paul’s mouth, to refer to or quote it directly? Or maybe it was the Apostle John who kept all of Paul’s epistles memorized.
You apparently don’t even comprehend how dangerous your argument is, because it suggests that none of the New Testament were actually written by the Apostles directly, but were constructed from “oral tradition” by other people.
what they proclaimed was that which could be found to be Apostolic, and most widely considered inerrant & inspired, accepted as such, by the majority of the churches, for at least a couple of CENTURIES previous. And besides...it was not chiefly those of the Latin church which did the heavy lifting, in the 4th century. They were not yet ascendant, yet claimed such for their own church among churches, a century or so later.
I noticed that too.
Did you miss the letter from Irenaeus I posted above?
“Did you miss the letter from Irenaeus I posted above?”
I saw it, whatever significance it has exists in your mind. Did you miss the obvious logical problem there is when asserting that quotes from the New Testament were actually from an oral tradition, and not from the scripture wherein they appear? Did the Apostle John memorize the epistles of Peter and Paul, and the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, so as to pass it on to Polycarp verbally who quoted them from this same “memory” instead of from the actual text?
What you reference are not complete texts but small 'snippets'. Some come from the sermon on the mount, recorded in more than one gospel. "to lead us not into temptation" ... the prayer Jesus taught the disciples. These are nothing more than fragments communicated orally from one disciple to another. There were no "books", nor were there any printing presses. The faith was transmitted by word of mouth. Your references support it.
“What you reference are not complete texts but small ‘snippets’. “
Polycarp: “... as it is said in these Scriptures “be angry but sin not” and “let not the sun go down on your anger”.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
So, was Polycarp just quoting an oral tradition about scriptures he had never even read?
Your arguments are utterly ridiculous.
He was repeating what he heard. Were you to reference an entire letter, as recited by Polycarp, it would be different. But these various bits and pieces were passed along and communicated through oral tradition. There were certain letters written to particular churches but you have yet to cite one.
No books? Uh, there were many scrolls. Codices a.k.a books were otherwise existent, just not as much used. Christianity soon adopted and popularized the form. From the link, according to Roberts, Colin H; Skeat, TC (1983). The Birth of the Codex. London: British Academy. pp. 15–22. ISBN 0-19-726061-6.;
At the turn of the 1st century AD, a kind of folded parchment notebook called pugillares membranei in Latin became commonly used for writing in the Roman Empire.
“He was repeating what he heard.”
So, the phrase “it is said in these Scriptures,” followed by a quotation of them, is just a repetition of what he heard were written in Ephesians!?
” Were you to reference an entire letter, as recited by Polycarp, it would be different.”
So, the only proof you’d accept, is if Polycarp transcribed the entirety of Ephesians!?
And the hits just keep coming! I can quote scripture fairly well, used to be much known for it (even suffered for it, at times), but I cannot quote a single entire "book" or even chapter...even as I once almost had Acts 2 down pat.
One needn't be proven guilty of word-for-word copying of entire pages to today be found guilty of plagarism. A few sentences will do. Quoting sentence fragments leans more towards having read the sentences themselves, though in this instance, it may be that much of what was most expounded upon, most emphasized, repeated, thus remembered by hearers, was the same phrasing otherwise used in NT written works, also. It's not only just as likely, but MORE likely, for most of that which is now accepted as NT canon, has present datings of being written, preceding Polycarp's own birth, or else coming about during his own lifetime.
Unless you are still on the jag suggesting there were no original autographs(?) (at least for some NT books?) and the "books" were all assembled at some later time, not [written] by the authors whom are commonly attributed to having written them in the first place?
Scrolls can be "books" in a sense. You know...like the sense we are using here, when we say "books"?
There is only one letter of St. Polycarp surviving (Letter to Philippians) in which he states that he does not know what the Scripture is and certainly gives no Table of Contents of the New Testament: "For I trust that ye are well versed in the Sacred Scriptures, and that nothing is hid from you; but to me this privilege is not yet granted."
St. Polycarp does use the same phrases as are used in Scripture, but since they both proceeded from the same oral Tradition it is to be expected.
Similarly, Iraneaus uses phrases found in 21 of the 27 books of the New Testament. Does that mean that the other six books were invalidly included in canon and everything else he wrote is indicative of some other source? After all, Jesus quoted the Deuterocanonicals more than any other Old Testament books.
Peace be with you
A repost:
To: Natural Law
“There is only one letter of St. Polycarp surviving (Letter to Philippians) in which he states that he does not know what the Scripture is and certainly gives no Table of Contents of the New Testament:For I trust that ye are well versed in the Sacred Scriptures, and that nothing is hid from you; but to me this privilege is not yet granted”
Polycarp 11:2
But he who cannot govern himself in these things, how doth he enjoin
this upon another? If a man refrain not from covetousness, he shall
be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the Gentiles
who know not the judgment of the Lord, Nay, know we not, that the
saints shall judge the world, as Paul teacheth?
Polycarp 11:3
But I have not found any such thing in you, neither have heard
thereof, among whom the blessed Paul labored, who were his
letters in the beginning. For he boasteth of you in all those
churches which alone at that time knew God; for we knew Him not as
yet.
Polycarp 11:4
Therefore I am exceedingly grieved for him and for his wife, unto
whom may the Lord grant true repentance. Be ye therefore yourselves
also sober herein, and hold not such as enemies but restore them
as frail and erring members, that ye may save the whole body of you.
For so doing, ye do edify one another.
Polycarp 12:1
For I am persuaded that ye are well trained in the sacred writings,
and nothing is hidden from you. But to myself this is not granted.
Only, as it is said in these scriptures, Be ye angry and sin not,
and Let not the sun set on your wrath. Blessed is he that
remembereth this; and I trust that this is in you.
So let me get this straight. Polycarp talks directly of Paul’s letters, commends them for being well-versed in the scripture, quotes from the scripture right after and calls it “scripture,” which is not an oral tradition.... and your reading of this is that Polycarp asserts that he doesn’t know anything about the scripture?
“but since they both proceeded from the same oral Tradition it is to be expected.”
Are you seriously arguing that the New Testament “proceeded” from oral tradition, and therefore was not actually written by the Apostles directly??
“After all, Jesus quoted the Deuterocanonicals more than any other Old Testament books.”
Which one? The one that recommends witchcraft? Or the one with the false historical information? Or the one that asserts itself that it might have errors?
How about you actually provide evidence for this whopper?
St. Luke, not himself an Apostle, wrote the following from the Sacred Tradition:
"Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught." - Luke 1:1-4
St. Mark was not an Apostle either so where did he get his Gospel?
Peace be with you
“St. Luke, not himself an Apostle, wrote the following from the Sacred Tradition:”
You’re not answering the question. I asked you if you believed the scriptures were not actually written by the Apostles, (or, in this case, their close associates) but were put together from oral tradition hundreds of years later. Luke, who also wrote Acts, obviously was not passing on what he heard after hundreds of years of tradition. He wrote according to what he received from the Apostles directly. Paul quotes Luke’s Gospel as scripture, right along side the books of Moses, and therefore holds that it is an inspired writing.
1Ti_5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
Luk_10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house
The Greek in Timothy follows Luke’s quotation. Which makes sense, since they were companions.
Did Luke write the Gospel of Luke, did Paul write his epistles, yes or no? It’s a simple question.
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